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Author: conscription
Date: 16-04-2018, 19:48
Edited by: conscription
at: 16-04-2018, 19:49

There are several events which can change the access list, them being

CL TH qualifies to GS via league
EL TH qualifies to GS via league
Salzburg wins the EL
Salzburg wins the Austrian league
Salzburg doesn't win the Austrian league
A team is banned from play during the competition
A combination of any of the above

The team reallocation is not a simple question because
1) CLQ is now directly linked to ELQ from the very first round
2) Champion protection is present in the EL,
so now you have to take into account the amount of losers as well
I won't be surprised that a fringe scenario that UEFA didn't consider with an odd amount of teams in a round could happen

Do we have to speculate or is there some document explaining the process?

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 16-04-2018, 19:58

I won't be surprised that a fringe scenario that UEFA didn't consider with an odd amount of teams in a round could happen

Do we have to speculate or is there some document explaining the process?

This is indeed very likely to happen. The chance is very big the CL-winner will also qualify for CL-GS in their league (unless AS Roma wins the CL and ends up 5th in Italy).

In that case teams will be moved on, which leads to only 19 losers in CL-PR and CL-Q1 combined (in stead of the 20 in the access list). So in EL-Q2 for champions 1 team would then have to be get a bye.

Since this is a new situation (and the draw for EL-Q2 is made before CL-PR/Q1 are played), we can't tell how UEFA will deal with this.

Re: CL team reallocations
Author: bert.kassies Date: 16-04-2018, 20:25	Maybe UEFA doesn't want to move clubs from CL-PR because they already announced the dates for the PR semi-finals and final at June 26-29.

Author: conscription
Date: 16-04-2018, 21:03
Edited by: conscription
at: 16-04-2018, 21:05

Forza-AZ, the bye is an easy solution but I want to hope they have a nicer way to handle things. And what team would be given a bye anyway? The loser of the fixture with the highest rated unseeded team is one way, so there's that.
The draw shouldn't be a problem, I think they can simply use the coefficient of the lower rated team in the CLQ1 fixtures (so if a seeded team loses CLQ1 they take on the coefficient of the team they lost to)
Overall the whole "bye" thing seems unlikely to me for one simple reason:
They tweaked all the numbers so that we get a proper competition system in the access list. HOWEVER it is evident that the CL-TH qualifying to the GS via league is much likelier than the same thing not happening which leads to the obvious conclusion that the tournament should've been primarily designed for this scenario and not the one we see in the access list now.
So either UEFA forgot about the fact that the title holders usually qualify anyway or they're playing stupid and they designed this in this way specifically for some sketchy reason (to benefit/disadvantage some middle ranked association(s) probably), I'm basically claiming that the access list that we have right now was actually derived from the unpublished access list for the scenario where the CLTH place isn't needed.

Bert, it's unlikely indeed that they will not use the matchday, but it doesn't have to be a semifinal and a final, two legged fixtures would fit in just as well.

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 17-04-2018, 08:54

@conscription. Part of what you say is very true. But you should also consider that it is much easier to give presents (promote clubs to later rounds) than to punish clubs by telling them that they need to start their season in July a few weeks earlier, because some title-holder failed to qualify by the domestic league.

Anyway, I think the calender of European football gets too crowded in July/August. It would be much more relaxed if two-stage qualifying would be introduced. Wouldn't it be nice if some teams of lower ranked countries have a separate tournament from August to November, or so? And that one or more winning clubs get access to a nice place in next years qualifying stages for European football?

Re: CL team reallocations
Author: DIMA_AZERBAIJAN Date: 17-04-2018, 09:20	İf Roma win EL and finish league 5th. Roma goes to CLGS and Italy Cup in ELGS be in open then: Nederland Cup winner goe to ELGS Denmark Cup winner goes Q2 to Q3 Norway Cup winner goes Q1 to Q2 Wales Cup winner goes PR to Q1 Then in ELPR round one team goes bye or which way UEFA choese that situation?

Re: CL team reallocations
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 17-04-2018, 12:17	Faroer Cup winner will also start in EL-Q1, as highest ranked country with Cup Winner not yet in Q1.

Re: CL team reallocations
Author: conscription Date: 17-04-2018, 17:49 Edited by: conscription at: 17-04-2018, 17:51	@Forza-AZ @Dima. But what's the source on the Cup winner priority anyway? #48 N2 already has priority over #50 CW, so why shouldn't #49 N2, #48 N3 or even #49 N3 not get priority over #50 CW? Not even talking about #51 CW yet

Author: conscription
Date: 17-04-2018, 18:20

Assuming Salzburg wins the EL, do I get the following right?

If Salzburg doesn't place in the top 2 of their league then Austria will have only two representatives in the EL while the CL access list will not change.
If Salzburg places second in their league then nothing changes except that N3 will fill in the N2 spot while N5 will fill in the N3 spot.
If Salzburg wins their league then the Austrian place in the champions route is vacated for an additional place in the CL League route since it's extremely unlikely that they would let a non-champion to participate in the champions route.

What's Austrian media saying about this?

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 17-04-2018, 19:46
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 17-04-2018, 19:53

@conscription

Because UEFA always moved forward Cup winners in these cases in previous years. So no reason why they suddenly would change this.

If Salzburg doesn't place in the top 2 of their league then Austria will have only two representatives in the EL while the CL access list will not change.

Correct.

If Salzburg places second in their league then nothing changes except that N3 will fill in the N2 spot while N5 will fill in the N3 spot.

I'm not sure what you mean here?
For the other 4 Austrian participants nothing will chance about theit starting round.
Since Salzburg would not play in CL-Q2, there would be an odd number of teams there, so N2 of Turkey gets a bye to CL-Q3. 1 less loser of CL-Q2 will enter EL-Q3 which is corrected by moving up some CW's from lower rounds.

If Salzburg wins their league then the Austrian place in the champions route is vacated for an additional place in the CL League route since it's extremely unlikely that they would let a non-champion to participate in the champions route.

Correct. No Austrian team in the CL-champions route and some champions will be moved up 1 round to fill up this gap.

Author: Pixel
Date: 18-04-2018, 00:26

@Forza-AZ

the access list 18/19 changes only in 2 cases or am i wrong?
a) if CL-TH qualifies for CL-GS via league, then Champion of country 11 goes to CL-GS.
b) if EL-TH qualifies for CL-GS via league, then N3 of country 5 goes to CL-GS.
am i right?
==================

moreover, regarding the question >> If Salzburg doesn't place in the top 2 of their league then Austria will have only two representatives in the EL while the CL access list will not change-----assuming: 1°Sturm / 2°Rapid / 3°RBSalzburg / 4°Linz / 5°Admira------- would we have 3 teams in CL (sturm+rapid+salzburg) e 2 in EL (linz+admira) ??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017%E2%80%9318_Austrian_Football_Bundesliga

Re: CL team reallocations
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 18-04-2018, 09:10	@Pixel Yes, that is all correct. If Salzburg wins EL and is 3rd in Austrian league, then Austria will have 3 clubs in CL and 2 in EL.

Author: Pixel
Date: 18-04-2018, 16:16

@Forza-AZ

thank's

==========
==========

instead concerning the speech:
>> If Salzburg places second in their league then nothing changes except that N3 will fill in the N2 spot while N5 will fill in the N3 spot {{

we would have not 6 but only 4 teams in the NCQ2-CL((because no team can go into the NCQ2-CL from previous rounds))--------so the Danish CW would take the leap from Q2 to Q3 of EL .... right ??

Re: CL team reallocations
Author: DIMA_AZERBAIJAN Date: 18-04-2018, 17:48	@Forza İf Roma or Salzbug win CL or EL Azerbaijan CW goes ELQ2 or not?

Re: CL team reallocations
Author: conscription Date: 19-04-2018, 12:52	@Forza-AZ, I meant the changes for other Austrian teams if Salzburg placed 2nd, not the other teams from other associations I basically suspect that Austria will get an additional team in that scenario

Re: CL team reallocations
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 19-04-2018, 13:22 Edited by: Forza-AZ at: 19-04-2018, 13:22	@conscription In any case it is like this: -CL and EL spots are divided according the access list -CL and EL winner gets "promoted" to CL-GS -Nothing changes for the other clubs from the countries of the CL and EL winners -Gaps in the access list will be filled by moving on Champions and/or Cup winners from countries not yet in that round.

Author: wachtwoord
Date: 26-04-2018, 00:07

So what will happen if the EL winner has already qualified to the CL-GS via its league? (e.g. Atletico Madrid).

If that happens the number N3 from the number 5 nation (France) gets promoted to the CLGS. Then in to fill the gap in CL-Q3 the N2 of the number 10 league (Turkey) will be promoted from CL-Q2. But this leaves the CL-Q2 for non-champions with 5 teams. Does this mean the N2 of the number 12 league (Czech republic) will also be promoted to CL-Q3?

Re: CL team reallocations
Author: Pixel Date: 26-04-2018, 00:19	@wachtwoord hi, it's well explained here => https://kassiesa.net/uefa/forum/view.php?topic=20171209021728.xml => penultimate message

Re: CL team reallocations
Author: bert.kassies Date: 27-04-2018, 09:03	The CL preliminary round 2018 with semi-finals and final is held at the end of June in Gibraltar. That makes it very unlikely that clubs from the CL preliminary round will take any empty spots in Q1.

Re: CL team reallocations
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 27-04-2018, 23:15	So there will most likely be just 16 matches in CL-Q1, with champions of Belarus also starting in CL-Q2 (assuming the CL-winners will already qualify for CL-GS via their national league).

Re: CL team reallocations
Author: Pixel Date: 28-04-2018, 14:59	@Forza-AZ why BLS and not Denmark? moreover that means {{ That makes it very unlikely that clubs from the CL preliminary round will take any empty spots in Q1 >> the winner of Preliminary it enters by force in the CL-Q1...

Re: CL team reallocations
Author: bert.kassies Date: 28-04-2018, 16:47 Edited by: bert.kassies at: 28-04-2018, 16:48	@Pixel Please look at the title of this topic. It says CL team reallocations. It's just highly unlikely that teams of the CL preliminary round will take any empty spots in Q1 because of reallocations. And Forza said "also". Which means in this case 2 teams of Q1 to Q2 (Den and Bls).

Author: Master
Date: 04-05-2018, 08:32

Access List question:

Either Atletico or Marseille will win the EL.
What will happen with the CL access in either case?

If Atletico wins, N3 of the 5th country (France) will get direct CLGS access instead of NCQ3. Does it also mean that N2 from TUR & CZE will skip NCQ2 and start in NCQ3? (so there would be only four teams left in NCQ2: Basel, Ajax (seeded), PAOK and most likely Sturm Graz.

If Marseille wins the EL and comes in either 2nd or 3rd in the league, the same procedure as above will apply.

If Marseille wins the EL and will end as 4th in the league, France will have 4 entries for the CL (3x GS, 1x NCQ3).

Is all this correct?

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 04-05-2018, 09:47

@Master

Yes, that is all correct.

And since the EL-winner will qualify for either CL-GS (Atletico or Marseille with 2nd place), CL-Q3 (Marseille with 3rd place) or EL-GS (Marseille with 4th place) via their league it is now certain that there will be a open spot in EL-Q3 (either because there will be 1 less loser coming from CL-Q2, or because CW-Ned will go to EL-GS to fill the open spot there).

So CW-Den will start in EL-Q3, CW-Nor will start in EL-Q2 and CW-Wal and CW-Far will start in EL-Q1.

Re: CL team reallocations
Author: bert.kassies Date: 04-05-2018, 11:33	The first version of the Seeding in the Europa League 2018/2019 is now available.

Re: CL team reallocations
Author: Pixel Date: 04-05-2018, 12:14	the version of the 18/19 access list has changed now it is 1.14 great, I like to see changes as they happen

Author: eye1
Date: 06-05-2018, 18:22

Probably the CL winner will qualify to CL via domestic league so the changes should be CH of CZE to GS, CH of NED to CHQ4, CH of AUT to CHQ3, CH of DEN to CHQ2. So CHQ1 has a team less than should have. I can think of 3 possible scenarios.

1) CH of GIB to CHQ1. That would have as result on CHPR to have just 3 teams of 1 spot. So either 1 team will qualify without game to final or will have a round robin tournament of these 3 teams. Highly unlike scenario since the games will be held in Gibraltar.

2) CHPR still has 4 teams just both finalist will qualify to CHQ1. I also think it is unlike to happen this way since there is a meaningless game.

3) CHPR has 4 teams, just one qualifies. At this scenario there will be 33 team at CHQ1 so 1 team will qualify directly to CHQ2 either the team from the higher ranked country (BLS) or the team with most points. This seem to me the most possible scenario.

In any case there will be 1 less team at LCQ2.

The problem could have been more complicated if there were 2 empty spots. This could have happened if Salzburg had won EL. Salzburg would have been promoted to CHQS so the empty spots at qualification rounds would have been 2. That could have been dealt easily just having one pair at CHPR (either single game or home away games) but still having decided Gibraltar as host there is still problem

Re: CL team reallocations
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 06-05-2018, 20:40	Probably the CL winner will qualify to CL via domestic league Well, this is far from certain yet. Liverpool is throwing away their lead compared to 5th place, so they can still miss out of CL that way. And if they do win the CL-final no champions will be moved forward at all.

Author: conscription
Date: 14-05-2018, 17:42

I have a theory about what UEFA might do

What if they move one of the EL Champions route teams to the League route or vice versa?

An example (based on Bert's current access list):
4 more cup winners get promoted from ELPR to ELQ1
As a result we have 10 teams in ELPR and 91+5 teams in ELQ1
Now out of the 48 ELQ1 winners only 47 will go to ELQ2 while a random ELQ1 winner will fill in the void in the Champions path Q2

Re: CL team reallocations
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 14-05-2018, 19:51	What if they move one of the EL Champions route teams to the League route or vice versa? That would be very unlikely, since UEFA didn't make different routes for no reason.

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