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Author: delyan
Date: 07-11-2008, 08:25

I would like to ask about and comment on the following excerpts from the UEFA article in the News section and Bert's explanations on the home page, also Bert's "UEFA Coefficients calculation method" page:

From 2009 on points in qualifying matches are only based on the qualification for a certain round (CL-Q1: 0.50 points, CL-Q2: 1.00 points, EL-Q1: 0.25 points, EL-Q2: 0.50 points, EL-Q3: 1.00 points, EL-Q4: 1.50 points)

UEFA says: These points are non-cumulative. Does it mean that if a team starts for instance in CL-Q1, and goes out in CL-group stage, it will receive 4 points instead of 5,5? And if they are eliminated in 1 KO round of CL they get 8 points (because bonus points ARE cumulative?). Is the "non-cumulative" rule valid also for teams that start in CL bu "migrate" to "Europa League" - i.e. a team starts in CLQ1, is eliminated in CHQ3 and ends up in EL-GS and gets 2 points...or 5 points (0,5+1 from CL + 1,5 + 2 from EL)?

Also, is the 20% weight of national coefficient in the respective team coefficients calculated retroactively and in what season will it be used first?

I'd like to apologize for posting this - I remember there was a thread discussing it after the Greek article came out but it seems to have disappeared and also I believe that the official news from UEFA dated 01.11.2008 deserves commenting on it.

Author: executor
Date: 07-11-2008, 08:38

My interpretation is that these points are not cumulative as long as a teams stays in the same competition. If it starts from CLQ1, reaches the playoffs and is eliminated, it should receive the points because it left CL and these should be added to any points gained in EL. If it reaches the CLGS, then it shouldn't receive the points from qualifying phase, only those for GS, because it wasn't eliminated.

Personally, i don't really like this system. but, since there's nothing I can do...I'll try to find the good parts of it.

Author: delyan
Date: 07-11-2008, 08:51

executor: thanks for the quick reply.

Actually, the logic of UEFA speaks against it. If they are not rewarding any points for the drop-outs of CLQ3 and Q4 because they go to UEFA Cup (well, ok - EUROPA League

), then the rewarding of points in this case should also be non-cumulative.
On the other hand it seems not fair that the clubs that go from CL to EL and, for instance, start in CLQ1 or Q2, get no extra points for eliminating their opponents in CL and earn in fact the same points as the clubs starting in EL qualifying rounds.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 07-11-2008, 09:05

delyan,
non-cumulative: All participating teams gets points, depending on where they ended their qualification (CL/EL, Q1/Q2,Q3/Q4/GS). So independend how they got there: if it is the first round they play, or if they started all the way from Q1 they both get the same number of points. Bonuspoints given after start of the groupstages are indeed cumulative. Remember however that starting from the groupstages, 'normal' points can be won for a win/draw) (so a team that reaches the 1st KO in CL will get more than the 8 points)

As long as Uefa doesn't publish how it really works, we don't know for sure(could you give a link to the article you are refering to?), but tendency on this foum is to believe that the 20%rule will be used retroactively, and will be used for the teamranking 2009 already, meaning that this teamranking 2009 is based on all individual points awarded between 2004 and 2009 + 20% of the countryranking 2009. Teamranking 2009 is used already for the seeding in the 2009/2010 season!

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: delyan Date: 07-11-2008, 09:16	Ricardo: Thank you for the comprehensive reply. Of course you are right that the points of the teams qualifying for 1 KO round of CL will be more than 8. Regarding the 20% rule I am not referring to any particular official source. I suppose it will be in effect retroactively because it was so the last time with the introduction of 33% rule. Thanks and regards

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: rakke Date: 07-11-2008, 09:45	And how about the qualification points being awarded retroactively? If they just implement the rule from next season on, there'll 5 years in which coeffs are based on 2 different methods.. On the other hand, retroactive implementation is difficult because of the format changes. We'll have to wait for uefa to communicate (or decide) I guess?

Author: badgerboy
Date: 07-11-2008, 10:15
Edited by: badgerboy
at: 07-11-2008, 10:17

delyan wrote:

"I'd like to apologize for posting this - I remember there was a thread discussing it after the Greek article came out but it seems to have disappeared and also I believe that the official news from UEFA dated 01.11.2008 deserves commenting on it".

The old topic - which actually got round to discussing the official UEFA article (or at least the one I saw) was archived mid-discussion here

OK - maybe not the same article then as the dates don't match? But presumably any new one only has the same info as is in UEFAdirect or it wouldn't be raising the same questions...

Author: Ricardo
Date: 07-11-2008, 15:19

"retroactive implementation is difficult because of the format changes"
@rakke,
therefor I expect that this will not be done retroactive, which indeed will lead for 5 years in a ranking based on 2 systems. Interesting is of course how this will influence the ranking...

Is it making this years ranking more important? For the smaller leagues(position 20-40) I think so, as they gather their main points during the qualifiction rounds. And that will be less for those teams that start in Q1, and then win a few rounds to finsh in either Q3 or R1....

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: amirbachar Date: 08-11-2008, 00:01 Edited by: amirbachar at: 08-11-2008, 00:01	I still think there will be qualifying points for the country ranking like this year (1 for win, 0.5 for draw). Do you have a quote that proves this is not the case?

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: bert.kassies Date: 08-11-2008, 08:30	We have at least proof that the new qualifying points count also for the country ranking: uefadirect, Nov. 2008: "These points will count towards the coefficients of the clubs as well as the national associations".

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: amirbachar Date: 08-11-2008, 10:50	That was obvious, as any other points a team gets. I still think it's in addition to the points for winning matches in the qualifying - it would be too little points otherwise.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 08-11-2008, 12:02

I suppose we just have to wait & see but I'd be very surprised indeed if amirbachar is right.

OK - so it will be harder for countries lower in the rankings to build up points in the qualifying rounds. But then - apart from different entry points - there's no real benefit to these countries whether they are ranked in the 30s or 40s unless they can get up to challenge for 15th place. Everyone from 16th down gets 4 teams.

And I think it's pretty reasonable to want a country to get at least one team in the group stages (& win some games) before they climb significantly.

Perhaps also there's something of a trade off. Lower ranked countries prefer their best teams (assuming those that qualify for Europe & make most progress are their best teams) to benefit from team ranking points even if they end up with less of a bump in the country rankings.

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: amirbachar Date: 08-11-2008, 12:33	We will know that only in 2010 I guess - I just don't think there will be 30 countries with less than 5 points, while the top even increases. It doesn't look good to me.

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: Wak Date: 08-11-2008, 13:01	Another 4 points for the Champions League best 16! Did you see that?! This is the end of all surprises — that "European Club Forum", which has 50% of the power on the UEFA club competitions, is creating a closed league inside the Champions League! Platini wanted more surprises in the group stage – he will get even less in the knockout!

Author: Overgame
Date: 09-11-2008, 10:29

"Another 4 points for the Champions League best 16!

Did you see that?!

This is the end of all surprises — that "European Club Forum", which has 50% of the power on the UEFA club competitions, is creating a closed league inside the Champions League!

Platini wanted more surprises in the group stage – he will get even less in the knockout!"

I don't really understand the point.

Now : the 16 'best' teams are seeded and need to win to qualify for the CLR2.
After : the best 16 teams are seeded and need to win to qualify for the CLR2.

I don't understand why giving 4 points to the qualified teams will give them more chances to qualify in the future.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 09-11-2008, 11:14

I think the idea of the extra points is to reward the "surprise qualifiers" - teams like Celtic in the last two years. Those teams that expect to lose in the last 16 and might (if they bothered with such things) be annoyed to see the team that finished 3rd in their group draw a numpty in the last 32 of the UEFA Cup - win both those games & immediately gain a coefficient advantage.

Of course it still wont take much for a team dropping down to make more points but it rebalances things just a bit.

I see absolutely no benefit to the really big clubs - who don't need the extra points anyway. And since the CL revenue isn't paid out based on coefficient points they also make absolutely no difference to the odds of an "upset" the following year.

Author: dinamozagreb
Date: 10-11-2008, 22:01
Edited by: dinamozagreb
at: 10-11-2008, 22:01

Bert, I have a question about your new table "using 20% country contribution". It seems that it will be touch and go for Dinamo Zagreb to be ceeded in last CLQR so I have my eyes on new coeff. every week.

On his page, Ricardo ( http://www.uclpredictions.ucoz.com/0809/cl0910.htm ) makes predictions based on your new table. What I don't get is how Dinamo Zagreb last week had 16.466 (new) and now has 16.324 (new). Using actual system, Dinamo last week had 18.070 and now has 17.836. But nor Dinamo nor Croatia gained any points.

Same, Cska Sofia was last week behind Dinamo and now is in front in both tables. Cska had last week (new system) 14.250 and now has 16.633. Same here, nor club or country gained nothing. Using actual system Cska had 17.012 and now has 19.644???

Maybe I'm off about some basic things but I don't get it.

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: Wak Date: 11-11-2008, 13:08	@ Overgame, I meant that the clubs reaching the knockout stage each year without doing anything in it (think about last years' Real Madrid CF), will grant themselves a good "pillow" on which they'll be able to sleep quietly. "OUT for a fouth year in a row in March? – Doesn't matter! We still got 4 points and we'll have an easy(ier) group next year!"

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: amirbachar Date: 11-11-2008, 13:26 Edited by: amirbachar at: 11-11-2008, 13:48	Real Madrid doesn't need those points at all - they are not competing in the rankings with teams that don't reach the CL's last 16 regularly. They are seeded every year without those points, so they slept very well without that change. It is a positive change for teams like Celtic, Fener and even Anthorsis, which should be rewarded for such an achievement.

Author: Cirdan
Date: 11-11-2008, 14:58

@Amirbacher: you are wrong... right now, Real is 13th, 2 points behind Werder, who did not reach UCL 2nd round in the last 2 seasons, but made a lot of points in the UC, Villareal has exactly as many points as Real, they only play CL for the 2nd time this year.

Unless Real really makes an impression this season, they'll probably be in pot2, and depending on what they do the rest of the season and who qualifies, it's unlikely but possible that Werder or Villareal will be in pot1 instead of Real, Sevilla would definitely be due to their back-2-back-UEFA Cups.

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 11-11-2008, 15:36

@dinamozagreb.

I'm not sure if I understand you right. But the old special Team Ranking with 20% was for the current season 2009. Now the regular Team Ranking 2009 is standard calculated with 20% country contribution. I think the old Team Ranking 2009 with 33% is now obsolete.

To compare the difference between 33% and 20% a new special Team Ranking 2008 with 20% is computed which may be compared with the regular Team Ranking 2008 with 33%.

See also the archived topic.

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: badgerboy Date: 11-11-2008, 15:59	All I think that has happened here is that dinamozagreb has clicked on the link for Team Ranking 2008 (with 20% country contribution) and confused it with the 2009 ranking perhaps because until recently the 20% 2009 ranking was somewhere down the main page whereas now it's been moved to the normal Team Ranking spot.

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: putzeijs Date: 18-11-2008, 22:26	@ DinamoZagreb. Ricardo makes projections based on predicted results. Even if Croatian teams don't get points, you can earn points when other teams get less points than predicted. The loss of Spartak Moskou could have put Dynamo in line for the 3th position, and an predicted point in 1/16F. It is only a guess.

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: folktronica Date: 11-12-2008, 02:31	current 2009/10 5.France 34.977 6.Portugal 30.078 7.Russia 28.500 8.Holland 26.067 9.Scotland 25.625 10.Romania 25.451 11.Greece 21.749 12.Turkey 21.450 13.Ukraine 20.125 14.Belgium 16.100 15.Swiss 15.250 16.Chezh 14.875

Author: Ricardo
Date: 11-12-2008, 09:05

Is this countryranking 2010? (after 3 1/2 years completed?)
I got different numbers for that:

 1.England        58.483
 2.Spain          58.454
 3.Italy          46.785
 4.Germany        41.499
 5.France         35.168
 6.Russia         34.625
 7.Romania        33.408
 8.Netherlands    25.630
 9.Portugal       27.153
10.Ukraine        25.000
11.Turkey         25.850
12.Scotland       23.125
13.Greece         21.249
14.Switzerland    22.625
15.Belgium        18.950
16.Denmark        21.150
17.Bulgaria       18.875
18.Czech Republic 17.625
19.Norway         15.300

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: folktronica Date: 11-12-2008, 10:28	yeah it`s 3 1/2 seasons coeff. but recounted with new bonus system

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: www.autoseco.com Date: 11-12-2008, 17:41	Ukraine has a big chance to take 9th place!!!!

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: Ricardo Date: 11-12-2008, 18:21	what a big influence this bonussystem then have on Russia! they lose 20% of their points!!

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: folktronica Date: 11-12-2008, 19:46	Portugal +10.7 % Holland + 1.7 % Russia - 17.7 % Romania - 23.8% depends on CL success

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: badgerboy Date: 12-12-2008, 10:38	Sorry - did I miss something? What "bonus system". Is this a real one or just something "invented"? I'm assuming if we're talking about extra bonus points for the CL last 16 then this "new ranking" is for reference only as these surely wont be back-dated but only start to apply from next year?

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: Dragonite Date: 12-12-2008, 13:53	A ranking that gives more points to CL wins than to UEFA Cup wins? Bring it on!

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: Overgame Date: 12-12-2008, 15:33	The new system is not that bad. 4 points for playing CLGS, back in the UC if you're out early and 4 points if you pass the GS, not bad. With the new bonuses, Sevilla, Fenerbahçe and Roma, last year, would have scored around the same total than Zenit. Quite right if you compare the strength of CL vs UC.

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: folktronica Date: 19-12-2008, 02:41	current 2009/10 4.Germany 41.686 5.France 35.405 6.Portugal 30.078 7.Russia 28.750 8.Netherlands 26.567 9.Scotland 25.625 frozen 10.Romania 25.451 frozen 11.Greece 22.249 12.Turkey 21.450 13.Ukraine 20.625 14.Belgium 16.100 15.Swiss 15.250 frozen 16.Chezh 15.125 frozen 17.Denmark 13.300

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: Czarny1809 Date: 22-12-2008, 03:04	I hope that it will soon be explained about points in qualification round. I mean getting points ( 1 for win 0.5 for draw) in these matches. Without them thre will be growing the distance between for example first 15-20 and rest... but in is very big chances for champions of contries lets say 19-26 to gest one place in Europa League Group Stage

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: folktronica Date: 22-12-2008, 07:54	no more points for win or draw in qualifications it`s clear

Author: dzomba
Date: 02-01-2009, 13:10

Since old topic was archived i couldn't find better one than this to post news ...

Maybe some of you knew this, but i haven't read it here yet, so here are news i didn't know until now:

1) 4 best 3rd-placed teams from CL group stage will be SEEDED in Europa League knock-out round

2) draw for CL 2nd and 3rd qualifying round will be made BEFORE 1st q round => more Kaunas-AaB matches ...

3) draw for UC 2nd qualifying round will be made before 1st round - similar impact as in CL ...

All this is from Uefa site ...

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: amirbachar Date: 02-01-2009, 15:44 Edited by: amirbachar at: 02-01-2009, 15:52	Those are big news - it means that we will have much smaller clubs in CL and especially EL (drop-outs from CLQ). Please notice that the last qualifying round for CL is called PO round, and the draw for that round will be AFTER the 3rd round. BTW, I think it's the wrong thread for that. Maybe you can start a new thread with links.

Re: coefficient calculation changes
Author: Lusankya Date: 04-01-2009, 17:36	Btw is it confirmed, that you won't get any points for victories/draws in qualification matches? Or is it just "most likely"?