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| MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: dim
Date: 08-06-2008, 11:38 | AS I KNOW THERE IS NOT A COUNTRY CALLED MACEDONIA,SO SOMETHING IS WRONG ABOUT THE EUROPEAN CUP....MACEDONIA IS ONE AND ONLY GREEK!!! |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: dinamozagreb
Date: 08-06-2008, 12:44 |  Bugger off, you should have started thinking about that a long time ago. It's too late now, let go... Makedonija, Croatia is with you (even thou you had cost us Euro2000 and have shitty pitches...)  |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: badgerboy
Date: 08-06-2008, 12:59 | And the award for "most appropriate nickname on the forum" goes to... |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: marathon
Date: 08-06-2008, 13:36 | "And the award for "most appropriate nickname on the forum" goes to..." very disapointing irony badgerboy... first as i recall many times before there have been discussions on political and geografical matters that you permitted... like kossovo and like the matter of partizan's elimination last year... dim just mentioned something very important here... since your have been one of the most RESPECTFULL and ACCURATE persons on this site you should dictate justice as well... now i know that we should not mix politics and football and indeed that was not the issue... there are many greeks that follow this nice forum and it should be polite and respectfull from all that national law to be followed and respected just like all regulations in sports and everywhere else.. telling that Macedonia is Greek is not provocative or inappropriate... since internationally for the time being their nation is called FYROM i think it is right to call it that way ... at least until the whole name matter is over... now i don't care if anyone wishes to call himself in any way thinks better but the only thing i want to suggest is accuracy and respect. dinamozagreb it is you that have to "bagger off" perhaps your family has not yet teached you the good mannors since you lack of tollerance. we do not care about your points of you... you are certainly the last person to take into consideration... even when someone gets inappropriate THERE ARE MORE RESPECTFULL and POLITE ways to inform that person that he is on the wrong track. then if he insists you have every right to be angry... but on the current case nothing of that happend. dim said something politically, geografically and historically correct. so until the name case of FYROM concludes i ask respect like everyone would in my position... starting from the ones who run this forum... thank you and peace to all |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: levski.bg
Date: 08-06-2008, 14:16 Edited by: levski.bg at: 08-06-2008, 14:16 | Welcome to the Balkans. We are always in history disputes in here. Damn. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: badgerboy
Date: 08-06-2008, 14:55 Edited by: badgerboy at: 08-06-2008, 15:01 | Sorry marathon but I consider this a completely pointless topic. Nothing whatsoever to do with football but only politics. I don't like any such topics - but usually when conversations "descend" into politics (Kosovo etc) they at least start with a point about football. When someone who has never posted on the forum before and starts WRITING IN BIG LETTERS about something totally unrelated to football they get the response I consider they deserve. Had you yourself raised such a topic in a more measured manner I might have responded more "politely" - or perhaps not at all - given that you've participated on the forum before in discussions actually about football (and - from memory - in a very reasonable way). Though I still would consider a PM to Bert more appropriate if you really feel so strongly about such issues. I've been to Macedonia and I know how ludicrous the people there consider the FYRO prefix is - my sympathies (for what they are worth) lie with them. I shouldn't write too much as this is the kind of topic Bert might delete... |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: bert.kassies
Date: 08-06-2008, 18:04 | No need to send a PM to Bert. I already receive many PMs and emails on this subject. Only the number of Rangers fans that try to convince me not to use the name "Glasgow Rangers" is slightly higher  I do respect all views on this subject. And I do respect "marathon" for his relative calm contribution to this topic. The reason that I use the name "Macedonia" is pure a practical one. I know it's impossible but I don't want to get involved in a polictical discussion. I've been in Macedonia and I've been many times in Greece, both nice countries with nice (be it sometimes proud) people. The reason that I use the name "Macedonia" is that people in Europe (at least in Western Europe) don't know what FYROM is. Nobody has ever heard of it. Only some political diehards know what it means. It is only used when it is politically required. In the newspapers, on television, everyone uses the name "Macedonia". And using common names for clubs I don't see why I should use official names for countries. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: marathon
Date: 08-06-2008, 18:06 | badgerboy. we agree on something. this is a football site. we know it. but the confirmition about that state's name remains. you first must give example to others on behaviour matters in this forum cause you are very prepaired and informed and all respect you. if you been to FYROM then you must have also seen their geografical maps as well that get to Salonica. Maps and fotographs that travelled throughout the globe and that NATO, UE and ONU condemned. if you have been there and since you wish to be so comprehensive and objective then i suggest you visit Macedonia as well... and i mean the real one ... come visit Greece study the history before expressing point of view. i hope this discussion ends here so that we can continue talking about football matters. this case is nationally very important to us. so the only thing i ask is respect united nations. even in the uefa official site you can check FYR Macedonia. i don't care if they like it or not. we don't either. but respect us without provocations and we respect you. i agree that dim wrote IN BIG LETTERS... and that he should have asked this politely... but it would have ever made any difference? i admire your preparation in football matters and even though i don't often write in this forum i visit it quite every day because i like it a lot. but on this thing your irony was way out and not necessary. if you have emotional bonds with skopians that's ok and very nice but it is personal. here we must also be respectfull towards one another. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: marathon
Date: 08-06-2008, 18:21 | bert. i don't think that calling Poli the Poli AEK Timisoara... is the same with calling Macedonia the FYROM state. all the people i know and i do not speek of greeks but italians for instance since i live in italy the last eleven years i inform you that all know the matter... read a newspaper is just enough to learn... i also find ignorance a very personal matter that should not affect the correct and accurate information. today it is the FYROM matter.. tomorrow could be something else that could influence your state's position for example. since you are the most important members of this site... you should be first to show equality and make example of respect and justice. be an example for all. so if you have not named FYR Macedonia until now... then you can start doing it from now on showing to all how really respectfull and tolerant you are with all members. our request i do not think it is to take lightly. take it as an example for everyone... other members from various countries could name it the way they want... but you running a so serious and respectfull site should have been a bit more correct. it is not uefa site but i am a fun of your site and it really makes me feel very sad the lack of attention and professionalism on matters of this level. thank you again. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: eoinh
Date: 08-06-2008, 22:43 | Its not italy, its the italian republic. Please show some respect. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: Kaiser
Date: 08-06-2008, 23:10 | Thus, let's call Russia 'Russian Federation' or Ireland - 'Republic of Ireland'. I think it's too inconvenient. I think that the author of this topic is either another clone or descendant of iwan  |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: AdamPol
Date: 08-06-2008, 23:29 | Tonight FRG won RP 2-0  In fact I don’t understand approach of “Hellenic Republic” towards FYROM. Going that way Ukrainians should forbid to call Former Soviet Republic of Russia -> Russia because their first country was called Kiev Rus. Then Lithuanians should ask to not use name Ukraine by Ukrainians because this name was used first time for part of their country finally Denmark shouldn’t agree to call two islands in Pacific Ocean “New Zeland”. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: marathon
Date: 09-06-2008, 01:36 | funny replies.... wow i am impressed... but none of your examples or ironies stand. the FYROM - Greece case is much more important... it is not the fact of adding a "republic" word or else... but the fact that this state wants to be called EXCLUSIVELY by that name. it is like more slovenia instead of slovenia wanted to be called venice... or anything like that... of course it is always very funny and easy being out of the dance and judge others how to dance... and the funniest thing is that all of you in my position would have reacted the same or even worse... i have followed over these months many of your replies in various topics and it is obvious. the case FYROM - Greece it is of the maximum importance because here we risk history we risk symbols (like the one in their flag)that were never theirs... things that never happened in other occasions of newly created states. but as i wrote before ignorance is a very personal issue... and it should be kept hidden... instead of being a thing of proud... |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: bbi
Date: 09-06-2008, 01:54 | i don't think greece risks anything if bert continues to name a country the way most people would understand. this is strictly political discussion and has no place on this forum. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: cska
Date: 09-06-2008, 03:17 | @marathon and dim After the loud quarrels in a topic about Kosovo I decided to not get involved in political or historical discussions. Maybe this was in a hope that this forum will remain only for football and everything about football. I was wrong. So was my initial decision. Now I have something to tell you in the same polite manner I did it to our Serbian friends here. Only the nationalistic radicals and the chauvinists were insulted. All the normal people from Serbia (posting here) understood me. I hope all normal Greeks will understand me without shouting at me. First of all, I am a Bulgarian. You are Greeks. You know that in every school system in the world patriotism is very well appreciated and our brains get "washed" little by little. Gradually, we tend to believe something that other people in other countries would not. Especially if we compare two enemy countries. In your history, Alexander the Great was Greek. In my history, he was a Macedon (but NOT Slavic Macedon as the present day inhabitants of Macedonia believe). In your history, he was a Greek, because he WANTED to be called Greek and participated at the Olympics. In my history, he was NOT Greek, because he... WANTED to be called Greek, but was NOT. He was refused to participate at the Olympics, because Hellenes called him "Barbarian". His native language has nothing to do with Greek. And he made them agree by force. In your history, Byzantium is Greece. In my history, Byzantium is the Eastern ROMAN Empire and most of its emperors were... Armenians and Persians. Even Basil the Bulgarian Slayer (Voulgarohtonos) who originally was named... Basil the Macedon was... Armenian. In your history Greece existed from antiquity to nowadays. In my history, in antiquity there was no country "Greece" - there were many city-states like Athens or Sparta, but not a unified country. In your geography, Alexander the Great conquered the whole world for Greece. In my geography, he conquered Greece and Persia for Macedonia - the only rival empire to his was the Persian one (just like Carthago was for the Romans). Well, he conquered numerous other small states and city-states, but how comes that China, India and North-Eastern Europe are "outside" the world? In your geography, Macedonia is only bound to Epyrus and Thesalia and its capital is... Saloniki. In my geography, Aegean Macedonia is in Greece, Vardar Macedonia WAS in Yugoslavia and Pirin Macedonia is in Bulgaria. How comes that you want a monopoly over the name of a region that is NOT entirely in your country? In your history, Macedonia has always been Greek. In my history, Macedonia was part of Bulgaria from year 809 until year 1396 (with a brief exception in XIV century when it was fragmented and ruled by Serbian and Bulgarian warlords). Then, from 1396 to 1878 it was in the Ottoman Empire. In 1878 it was a part of Bulgaria and later on it was returned to the Ottomans by the Great Powers. In 1912 it became a part of Bulgaria again and in 1913 it was divided between Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece after an inter-ally war. In your beliefs, people in Aegean Macedonia have always spoken Greek. In my beliefs, they spoke Macedonian in antiquity. Being scriptless, their language disappeared (like the Thracian one). The Slavs assimilated the local Macedons and Thracians between VI and IX century. What about more recent times? In 1911 a survey showed that still the majority of Macedonian population spoke Bulgarian. Even 10 years ago, when I was a border soldier, I can tell you that near the border the "Greek" shepherds still curse at their sheep in Bulgarian. I DISAGREE that Macedonia should monopolize the name of the whole region. But I DISAGREE that Greece should do the same. Sorry, but when a football game is to be played - what should be written on the board? In Macedonia: "Macedonia-Greece". In Greece: "Hellas-Skopie". This is absurd. Why don't you first protest to the WORLD that it calls your country GREECE and not HELLAS? Solve this and after that charge for Macedonia. And now about football. I use just like Bert the name "Macedonia" for convenience. Just like "Korea" for "South Korea or Republic of Korea" and "North Korea" for "PDR Korea". Just like "Germany" instead of FRG (which actually is the name of this state right now) and "East Germany" instead of GDR. Just like Holland instead of Netherlands (sorry, Bert). Maybe, if you rename your country to Macedonia, this will force the world to name FYROM "Northern Macedonia". But the problem will remain... I understand what FYROM means. With us, it is "B Yu R M". And Bulgarians use "Macedonia" not only for that country, but also for the part of that region which is South-West to Sofia. However, the name "Macedonia" still touches a string in our patriotism and we like using it. Especially for a country, whose people still speak a dialect of Bulgarian... Don't feel insulted - I recognized your right. But I hope you will find why poeple's positions vary from one country to another... Kind regards from me. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: KRBY
Date: 09-06-2008, 10:17 | Dear bert, I can understand tht most of the world calls it Macedonia, however the official name is Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. I don't demand to write it as FYROM, where nobody will understand. However you can write it as FYR Macedonia, since it is the official name and all people will see within that name the term "Macedonia". Writing just three more letters I don't suppose it will be a problem. It will be a respect to the Greeks, where you have too many visitors in your web site. Even FIFA and UEFA calls it like that as FYR Macedonia and whole world understands since they see the term "Macedonia". I will not discuss politics here since it is a football forum. Just do it as respect to Greek visitors. You can write it Macedonia (FYR) in parenthesis if Slavic Macedonians have a problem. Take a note that in UEFA Cup there is a participation of Aris Salonica which is also a Macedonian team. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: Kaiser
Date: 09-06-2008, 10:25 | OK, for that matter, Russia's official name is Russian Federation, so why don't you spell it like this? I think that you Macedonians (or Macedoniaphiles) are just brags and no more. No people of this forum want Bert to spell their countries like they want. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: ignjat63
Date: 09-06-2008, 10:37 | Instead of Serbia, please write "Serbia without Kosovo" cozzz this way you are doing grave injustice to the truth. I mean truth in the "matter of fact" sense and not metaphysical or mystical so called "truth". |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: seso
Date: 09-06-2008, 10:38 | cska: "His native language has nothing to do with Greek." What are you saying cska?? This for me is the most obvious argument against what people from FYROM and Bulgaria claim... Since the language is exactly Greek, how can the Macedonians be of Slavic origin??? What excuse do they tell you about that in school?? Check wikipedia if you want, it's a neutral source I think. It has coins and text from that period. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: badgerboy
Date: 09-06-2008, 10:39 | marathon wrote: "but the fact that this state wants to be called EXCLUSIVELY by that name. it is like more slovenia instead of slovenia wanted to be called venice... or anything like that..." I think cska already answered this pretty well but since I introduced my "personal experience" into the discussion I'll answer it too. When I was in Skopje I never spoke to anyone who said they wanted "exclusive" rights to the name. Nor did I discuss the fact that any part of Greece (or any other country for that matter) "belonged" to them. If I had I would have strongly disagreed with them. All they disagreed with (or at least all we spoke about on the subject that I can remember now) was the need to add the letters FYRO in front of the name of their country. A quick look at the Wiki shows that there are also six places called "Macedonia" in the United States (in speech at least I probably used to say America until I met some Latin Americans who objected to my use of that phrase too!). There is also one in Brazil & one in Romania. Of course the current FYROM shouldn't have "exclusive" rights to the name Macedonia. Greece has had a region called Macedonia for many centuries - & should continue to do so in the future. I really don't see why use of the same name should in any way prevent the two living in harmony in the future. PS I really should visit Greece at some time in the future. One of relatively few European countries I haven't been fortunate enough to visit yet. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: bbi
Date: 09-06-2008, 11:30 | seso: "What are you saying cska?? This for me is the most obvious argument against what people from FYROM and Bulgaria claim... Since the language is exactly Greek, how can the Macedonians be of Slavic origin??? What excuse do they tell you about that in school?? Check wikipedia if you want, it's a neutral source I think. It has coins and text from that period." offtopic (as offtopic you could get on this thread anyway): wikipedia is not neutral. it is free for anybody to write. so it all depends on who wrote first and cares more about what is written there. that is not a source for valid information. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: marathon
Date: 09-06-2008, 11:53 | 1. Kiro Gligorof (ex president of FYROM) said: "we are Slavic and we came to this region in the 6th century... we do not descend from the ancient Macedonians" - 26 February 1992. a few days later: " We are not Macedonians but Slavic. That's who we are! We are not related to Alexander the Great the Greek nor with his Macedonia... our antenants arrived here in the 5th or 6th century" - Toronto Star, 15 March 1992. 2. just the fact that Alexander had Aristotle as his teacher we understand which language spoke. even though there were many city states that does not mean that there were 100 languages ... they all wrote and spoke ancient greek... and archeology admits that. 3. cska your history knowledge really leaves me speachless. i do not know how bulgarian school history is written but i really hope your in mistake about it otherwise you should really re-organise it. it has nothing to do with patriotism or fanatism. these are facts accepted by the whole world, archeologists, historians, etc. badgerboy it makes me sad that you agree with cska. in greek history byzantium is not considered as greece, just a few passages and origines, it was huge and vast, but the majority of their emperors were greek. it makes me happy if there are other cities called macedonia around the world but it has nothing to do with a newly created small country that first uses a symbol found in Greek territory and since the antichity it was macedonian-greek at vergina near the tomb of Filip the father of Alexander and also a country that needs so much an identity and a historical background that they do not deserve, even if they were part of the ancient macedonia indeed were a part and certainly not macedonia, and also a country with provocative expansive ambitions. cska not only you do not know history but you have no idea of geography either. thessŕlia and epirus in greece are not considered macedonia. macedonia is the whole ABOVE region that goes until thrace. i suggest you retake a look on some recent map book. badgerboy and to all matthew nimitz is the u.s. supervisor between the fyrom and greece discussions over ther final name of the country. discussions that skopians often avoided. that is why on the last congress of NATO on bucarest Greece aplied veto and fyrom did not get permission of entering the NATO and they will not be getting it neither per NATO nor for UE until they settle this case. among the names that mr. nimitz proposed were New Macedonia, Reppublic of Macedonia... and a few others that the Greek government (even having the people against it) agreed. but still the skopians did not insisting that they are macedonians and that they should be called only like that. which means that the damage has already been done and it has to be fixed. because if you ask someone about macedonia or he gets confused on which region you are refearing to or they think of skopie and that is unfair. i could go on with hundreds of links on world history books and newspapers. i am very prepaired on that matter. i have collected and read a lot. and not just greek history books. this has nothing to do with patriotism or nationalism but with facts and the danger of a few who wish to change history. i hope this ends here. the only thing we wanted was to say things the way they are. FYR Macedonia and not just Macedonia. thank you. p.s. of course this is a football site but every now and then and especially if provoced someone has to stand up and explain things. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: badgerboy
Date: 09-06-2008, 12:32 | Marathon Just to clarify that the bit of CSKA's post I was agreeing with strongly was only one sentence: "I DISAGREE that Macedonia should monopolize the name of the whole region. But I DISAGREE that Greece should do the same". The historical stuff I read with interest (and like cska's general attitude in these arguments) but I don't suppose to know enough to be able to "agree" or "disagree" with different "historical facts" on such subjects. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: executor
Date: 09-06-2008, 13:29 | marathon: {i>among the names that mr. nimitz proposed were New Macedonia, Republic of Macedonia... {/i> Isn't that their current name? |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: dinamozagreb
Date: 09-06-2008, 14:28 Edited by: dinamozagreb at: 09-06-2008, 14:33 | "Macedonia is a country with provocative expansive ambitions." - that's priceless. I can see right now their mighty military force invading Greece. Slavs came to Macedonia back in the day and continued to use that name. What's the problem? Should Germany protest cz France got the name from German tribe Franks? Who cares what happened 15 centuries ago? WHO CARES??? The Greeks care. Lol. Macedonia was theirs 20 centuries ago and now some petty people that lived there for 15 centuries want to keep that name!!! How dare they!!! Lets rearrange European borders using maps form 5th century. Lets encourage Brazil to sue USA for monopolizing word America. Lets sue NBA for calling their champion WORLD champion. The fact that you're blocking the progress of that poor country is nothing else but sad. The most of the world that is watching this thinks you're sad. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: marathon
Date: 09-06-2008, 15:12 | executor their current name is Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia. DinamoZagreb. Nicolŕs Sarkozy just yesterday visiting Greece stated the importance of this case and that they back Greece in this justice. Other political leaders are backing us because we are right. we want fyrom to be a free state and prosper we invest already, we want them to enter in the NATO and UE and grow, but as older and respectfull members our requests are far from dubious. we only want a name that separates our macedonia from them. i am sorry if that bitters you, we are not talking about changing borders and we cannot tolerate our historical roots and our legacy to be humiliated. there are things that have to remain TRUE because their value cannot be estimated. we are not talking for some small island's name or mythology but for maceodnia for god's sake. do you have anything pure and marvellous in your history that make you proud? would you like to be taken away from you? wouldn't you fight for justice if you were in my position? now i do not care how in other parts of the world face similar situations... but deep in your hearts you know i am right. Macedonia was not just that small territory. In history and in PRESENT macedonia has always been Greek. These symbols, these names ARE greek. We are talking about a country, not a city or village. this is our legacy. what greeks left for greeks and thus for the world. Would you like if someone one day comes and claims what from the beginning has always been yours, what for the sicrifices or the legacy left for your people just like that someone comes and sais "no. these things are not yours. are mine" ? hah? would you? do you know that the skopians have asked that since they are the state of macedonia the greeks should change the name of their region? do you know that they asked to reconsider borders? do you know that they did not allow greek medic and military force to get to kosovo even though NATO ordered? do you know that just a month ago their prime minister was photographed during a celebration depositing flowers on a monument where there was a map with their country's borders arriving in Salonica and the people that hailed soon it will be ours again? since when these territorries where ever theirs? can someone of all of you "historian professors" tell me that? and you dare talk to me about nationalism? when did ever Greece provoce someone? do you know it is called defence? do you know that these photographs travelled along with others throughout the world and that cnn, bbc, the united nations, ue spokesman condemned them? do you know how well treated are skopians in Greece, instead of the greek minority in fyrom? do you know how many skopian ambassadors and skopian politicians during the 90's said that fyrom had nothing to do with macedonia? i could give you names and dates and newspapers. do you know that until 1945, worldwide, macedonia was always considered greek and the slavs for first and for expansive reasons started to doubt it and they continued even if noone agreed? do you know that through history the greek language has always been spoken there? don't you find it strange that a new state claims flag and name of greeks when the greek language has never been spoken? have you ever read one single history book so that you should know when the slavs came there for the first time? do you know just one citizen of skopie that know the etymology of the greek word macedonia? can you tell me what it means? as you see it is not just a name or a character but it is about stealing others' history. if they have always been slavs whyy not be proud to be skopians and instead they need to be macedonians? so please, spare me all of your ironic statements because this is a national issue of major weight. if you can't understand then let it go. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: dinamozagreb
Date: 09-06-2008, 15:52 | Croats lived for 45 years together with Macedonians, with Macedonia. Did we know that they were Slavs and not spirits and zombies of 5th century Greeks. Duuh. Slavs, Bulgarians and Greeks live in todays Macedonia. Why is Macedonian history of non-Greeks less important that yours? Because the word "Macedonia" comes from Greek origin? Why is your presence in ancient Macedonia more important than presence of Slavs in Macedonia from 6th century up to now? |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: marathon
Date: 09-06-2008, 16:03 | do you know that in your attempt of finding ground to support your thoughts you just get worse? in current fyrom the majorities are slavs and albanians and it has been like that for decades. we do not have to claim something that it is already ours. as i said before and that you eventually did not read even if it so that small country could have been only a part of what macedonia was, certainly not the entire one. their name cannot be just macedonia for first. and by the way did you read all my questions with their threats and disreguards. and this is all you have to say? someone takes something that is not his and this is all you have to say? we have never threatened anybody, we only want to reestablish balance and justice. we made a huge pass forth concerning the name... why is only macedonia so important than new macedonia? we only want the truth to be heared. the difference between you and me is that i bring you facts historical and political. you only make suppositions. well why don't you make these suppositions and don't you talk history with the skopians? unless you get serious i do not intend to lose any more time responding to you. you are NOT objective. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: Overgame
Date: 09-06-2008, 16:23 | Who cares ? Frankly ? Marathon is just nationalist. He said, at least 3 times (in different ways) : "I'm right and I bring facts, you're wrong and you are just bringing suppositions and blabla". I don't care about your former history in your region. Seriously. Future is really more important than wars 2K years ago, names used 15 centuries ago and maps of 5 centuries. Keep your stupid nationalism somewhere else. Thank you. Overgame. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: dinamozagreb
Date: 09-06-2008, 16:28 | "we do not have to claim something that it is already ours." Why is Macedonia yours? Can you use "macedonia for first"? Why are you so special of all the ethnic groups in whole Macedonia? Because it's your word? You certainly responded in true humanistic and democratic way to "threats and disregards". By blocking the path of undeveloped country to European integration. Don't respond to this post. Or the one before that. You are objective after all. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: marathon
Date: 09-06-2008, 17:03 | saying that i am right does not make me nationalist. i never offended anyone of you. i am just defending the legacy and the right of my country. when i say i am right i mean on the facts that i bring you historical and political on the facts written and happened. it is not my fault if that is the truth. and meny of you that i have followed this last year i saw how nationalists and "stupid" (overgame) you became with both cases of partizan's elimination last year and with kosovo's independence. don't you come and talk to me about nationalism. i just defend the history and presence of my country. you only continue on offending me. maybe because you do not have anything to else to say. instead of losing time and responding to me with "stupid nationalism" why don't you OPEN a book and try to learn something usefull. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: ignjat63
Date: 09-06-2008, 17:05 | I am now on this forum just about four years. Nationalistic disputes were in that time Greek vs Turks, Serb vs Croats, Kosovo and now about Macedonia. All of them about Balkan nations and regions. I have lived for 20 or so years in a country poisoned with nationalism, to such an extent that it overshadowed nationalism in other ex-Yugoslav countries. I would like to move somewhere else but it is not possible. Unfortunately. I have given up hope that we should beat the nationalistic monster during our lifetime. Nationalism seems to be our destiny. Our past, present and the future. Food for our souls. May we all live happily ever after. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: executor
Date: 09-06-2008, 17:31 | marathon: {i>their current name is Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia.{/i> I didn't mean the name by which they are called by others, but the name they use for themselves. Check Wikipedia. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: marathon
Date: 09-06-2008, 18:33 | executor i had already checked that thanks... but just out of curiosity did you notice on the info on the right of the page "Language: Macedonian?" well ok guys why don't we all let it go and move on to football matters... let's close this topic... even because it is useless to comunicate and exchange opinions since THE FACT HAS TURNED INTO NATIONALISM... and i have nothing else to say. i don't like being considered as nationalist. it is very easy nowadays to call someone like this... and you do it only when you do not have any more arguements and when you don't know how to react so you scream "nationalist" and you conclude. last thing... i am very disappointed... first i do not feel respected... second noone tried to discuss... on my arguments and facts... i NEVER offended anyone... i only informed you on the current situation... and i have been receiving only attacks... i give you facts and you make a fool of me... since my presence it is not respected on this forum... then i apologise and i leave... even badgerboy and bert did not support me in this, although it was clear from the beginning that my intentions where only on defending my country's right and sustaining the historical-political truth... with no ...i repeat no nationalism.... for the time being whether you like it or not the name of this country remain FYROM until further discussions... something you can't respect... all right then i will cancel my nickname... and i will never bother again anyone... i even started a new topic that in this case i please bert to cancel it... i wish you all peace and tranquillity... |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: Tirion
Date: 09-06-2008, 19:20 | I think this discussion here is fruitless. Marathon is emotionally involved and most of the others are not good enough informed about the matter. I personally always wondered why they called themselves Macedonia because for me that was always a former Greek state like Sparta or Athena. But as there is part of ancient Macedonia inside this new country and they are the former Yougaslavian republic of Macedonia, I thought "The Greeks won't like it but OK." I can understand that the Greeks aren't very fond of that name and if it's true what marathon said about the monument with the expanded border I can understand them even better. If Poland for instance would break apart and there would be a new state which called itself Prussia I wouldn't like it either and would be worried, too. I think there should be a compromise something like Northern Macedonia or Slawomacedonia. And if they join NATO and EU that would defintely be the end of any expansion dreams/fears, because neither NATO nor EU would allow it. @Marathon You shouldn't leave just because of this topic. After all it's a football forum and not a politics forum. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: Kaiser
Date: 10-06-2008, 02:10 | marathon, I do understand you. But what's the sense in this discussions if everyone understand the meaning of Macedonia and doesn't even know what FYROM is? I think hiding the country name in abbreviation is not patriotism. As for me, I don't really care how to call my country. I just suggest you to take it easy. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: badgerboy
Date: 10-06-2008, 11:54 | I think I have to defend marathon a bit now. I don't "know him" of course - so I might be wrong - but I don't think his views on this topic mean he is a "nationalist" in the most negative sense. Most of these political discussions are "pointless" because 95% at least of the "ordinary citizens" on both sides of all such arguments are completely intransigent. It's what makes the arguments so difficult to solve in the first place. I can sort of understand it. I'm certainly not a nationalist and most of the time I don't even consider myself particularly patriotic. But still I sometimes find myself in conversations where I get genuinely annoyed on behalf of my country. Mostly because I consider it is more "OK" with the rest of the world if someone verbally "bashes" the English (or British) than any other nation - largely I presume because we had an Empire a long time ago. Why should people be allowed to have a go at my country because of what a lot of dead people did a long time ago? For me the most "scary thing" about these big "political arguments" is that it isn't just the "nationalists" (unless everyone is considered as such) but pretty much "everybody" who is determined that their country is "right" in the argument. I suppose Bert used a good word in his post: "proud". "Pride" to a certain extent can be a good thing but in all these arguments everyone seems "too proud". Another example. I know very little about the history of Transylvania. Some years ago I met a Hungarian woman through my work in Oxford & when I visited Budapest I met up with her & her fiancee. She was one of the "nicest" people you could wish to meet. The only time I recall her getting even slightly "heated" (I wouldn't go as far as "angry") was when we somehow got round to talking about Transylvania. Maybe it's the teaching/indoctrination in schools (from a very young age) or simply generation after generation of "fervent patriotism" brought about by years of subjugation from other nations and/or fear of such subjugation but in all these arguments "ordinary people" on both sides believe so strongly that they are 100% right that "compromise" is nearly impossible. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: LevskiFan
Date: 10-06-2008, 12:41 | Macedonia...no such country FYROM..... Name...Greek Languge.....Bulgarian People....Bulgarian Territory..no need to say...everyone knows thats it...end of story.... |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: executor
Date: 10-06-2008, 13:19 | {i>The only time I recall her getting even slightly "heated" (I wouldn't go as far as "angry") was when we somehow got round to talking about Transylvania.{/i> Why would she get "heated" about Transylvania? Don't tell me she considers it "rightfully" theirs  |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: bbi
Date: 10-06-2008, 13:24 | executor don't you start now. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: Tirion
Date: 10-06-2008, 14:10 | Mostly because I consider it is more "OK" with the rest of the world if someone verbally "bashes" the English (or British) than any other nation Sorry for the off-topic but as German I kind of had to laugh about this. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: KRBY
Date: 10-06-2008, 15:12 | As I said before I can understand that nobody knows FYROM. What I just ask is just to put three more letters FYR Macedonia, like in UEFA web sites. That's all. I don't suppose is such a problem |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: ignjat63
Date: 10-06-2008, 15:54 | Not that it really matters at all but still.. I will explain why I used the term "nationalist". Marathon was annoyed by something. He made a suggestion to Bert and got a reply by him. If marathon left it at that it would be different. But he kept pressing on in several posts afterwards. That "pressing on" is why I used that term. This is not an official site. It is a private site that took lot of persistance to make and is not easy to keep maintaining. If Bert thinks Macedonia is at present time the right name to recognize that country by and Greeks are annoyed they are overreacting. It does not matter at all how Macedonia is called at this site. This is not UN. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: badgerboy
Date: 10-06-2008, 17:39 | I just have to agree totally with ignjat63's last post. Aside from the use of the word "nationalist" (probably because I consider it's connotations so negative) a very sensible viewpoint. Transylvania - I'm saying nothing. Tirion - I'm not quite sure how to "interpret" your post. It could be from the viewpoint that the English tabloid press are absolutely shocking at "bashing" other nations & sadly "my country" is populated by too many ignorant people that "swallow that crap" and I'd have to say that sadly you're right. Or it could be from the viewpoint that Germany themselves get a fair amount of stick. And you might well be right and I might well miss a lot of it because (English tabloids & ignorants aside) I (showing my own relative ignorance) don't speak the language of the "basher". But I'm now wondering way off even this - non-footballing - topic. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: Tirion
Date: 10-06-2008, 18:44 | A little of both. The british press is great in 'bashing' other countries. I don't know how it is with other countries but I think Germany gets quiet a big amount of this especially when it comes to football. I think its due to our long not always friendly relationship. Sadly enough but it seems that the German press or at least the infamous 'Bild' seems to start 'bashing' other nations as well. Recenty there has been a campaign against the British and the Polish. On the other hand I think Germany is often the target of bad press and bad jokes. Might be that I am not objective but it seems that the typical German is always described as a sauerkraut and weisswurst eating, beer drinking, leather trousers wearing fatso you know from the Oktoberfest, or the war loving Nazi. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: levski.bg
Date: 10-06-2008, 20:22 | Tirion: maybe Bild have reacted for this Polish tabloid, who've made some sort of bad joke with cutted heads on their frontpage. There are stereotypes for almost any nation on the world, but I think the globalization will change that, soon or later. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: Tirion
Date: 10-06-2008, 20:31 | They did. But both papers, the polish and the Bild, belong to the same publisher the 'Axel-Springer-Verlag' and it was just a campaign to raise the sales figures. But that's enough off topic in this off topic thread. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: AdamPol
Date: 10-06-2008, 23:27 | Tirion does it mean that you reserve name Prusia to Germans. Do you know that Prussian tribes which inhabited “Ostpreußen“ till 16th centry were not Germans at all? They were Balts like Lithueanians and Latvians. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: abzpablo
Date: 11-06-2008, 05:07 | Many guys I know are travelling there to see Scotland in September in the WC qualifier. Everyone just says they are going to Macedonia. Not one person I know mentioned it being a Former Yugoslav Republic or anything like that. I'm sure Romania has a province called Moldavia....and they don't insist Moldova calls itself the Former Soviet Republic of Moldova. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: executor
Date: 11-06-2008, 07:28 | abzpablo, Your example with Romania and Moldova isn't quite fitting, because we are the same people and in good relations with them (although lately they have been getting a bit colder because of their president). Greece and FYROM are 2 distinct people. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: Tirion
Date: 11-06-2008, 08:01 | @Adam I know where the word Preußen comes from and who lived in Ostpreußen, that was not the point. But all the world knows Prussia as a German kingdom and not as the baltic tribe. It was just an example to show that I understand marathon. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: darebt
Date: 11-06-2008, 13:10 | I am not even bothering to read all the crap in this topic. YES! Forgive me for being honest, but this is PURE CRAP. What's wrong with You guys? I will call my country Macedonia, You can call my country whatever You like it. Who are You (it refers to the topic starter) to open such discussion and discuss about some one's name?! What would it be if I open a topic and ask the administrator to change some user's nick because it offends me? FFS. Cut the crap, cut the politics and dont mix it with one of the most beautiful things in the world - SPORT. It is not worth it. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: dim
Date: 11-06-2008, 14:18 | Ok boys read the "true" history of balcanian like that they think they know in Bulgary... http://www.bulgarmak.org/makedonia.htm |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: bbi
Date: 11-06-2008, 15:33 Edited by: bbi at: 11-06-2008, 15:36 | we don't care about the "true" story here or any other story. all we care about is football. stop this nonsense. if you don't care about football than go find a history forum there have to be enough of them on the net. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: pit
Date: 11-06-2008, 22:29 | just to remind to all of you what stays on top of the topics' page: "The aim of this forum is to support discussions on the calculation of coefficients and rankings for UEFA European Cup Football. Contributions about related subjects like formats, draws, seedings, etc. are welcome. Please don't use it for commercial purposes. All other aspects of European football may be discussed at the Forum 2." Does anyone see anything from the above in this stupid nationalistic discussion? I do not see indeed any football aspect in it at all. Perhaps the best idea is just to stop replying to (some of) the greek users' posts and if you would allow me to add - provocations. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: ekze
Date: 11-06-2008, 23:26 | bert, delete this topic, please! Its not related to football! |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: levski.bg
Date: 11-06-2008, 23:32 Edited by: levski.bg at: 11-06-2008, 23:43 | dim: With all due respect to the great Greek culture, that link looks like a private site, and there are all kinds of sites, with any kind of view points, with their "true" one way history sources. That is a private site also, and Bert is the last person who will post the nacionalistic comment or to take any side in this endless "name" conflict. In such forums like this one in here, you can see alot of people from such endless conflicts, who talk friendly about football and football statistic. Let's not ruin that. Otherwise, what will happen. The people with different from your view will enter here, and there will be lot of endless topics, with people who fight with their history sources. And you know better than me, that such topics are really endless and producing nothing, but hate, hate, hate and venom. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: cska
Date: 13-06-2008, 17:58 | @seso and marathon (+dim) Wow, I have been in Paris for just 5 days (it was fantastic) and it seems things here escalated very much without any necessity. I kindly ask the Greek friends here - why do you insult my knowledge in history? I just presented histories in BOTH our countries. My position has nothing to do with BOTH school systems. Why do you think that truth is YOURS only? Your schools are also biased towards nationalism and you prove it in your posts here. Seso, Alexander's native language was NOT Greek. And it was NOT Slavic. He was NOT Slav. Where did you see me writing that??? But he was refused to participate at the Olympics for being 'uncivilized' and 'barbaric'. And in Ellada no naturalization existed... |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: cska
Date: 13-06-2008, 18:13 | Seso and Marathon, You also questioned my geography. You claim that Thessalia is not Macedonia. However, you also say that Aris Salonica is the real 'Macedonian' team. But the Greek name of the city is Thesaloniki, i.e. it is related with Thesalia, whose center is the city. How all your statements can be true simultaneously? How Aris is Macedonian, Thesaloniki is in Thesalia and Thesalia is not Macedonia??? Wow, I may be irritating in these posts, but damn it, I am not stupid! You can't trick me. You may call me 'malakas' or 'pustis' when you read my posts, but this does not change truth to your or my side. Truth has no side. You may call your part of Macedonia 'South Macedonia' and FYROM could be named 'North' Macedonia. But NONE of you has a registered trademark over the name. At least in France, all my Western colleagues have no problem to call the country Macedonia and to believe that Alexander was probably Greek... So, sometimes it's not about facts, it's about opinions and believes. Like yours. Like mine. Voltaire has said: 'Mensieurs, I do not agree with your opinion. But I will fight with all my heart for your right to express it.' I admire that! |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: seso
Date: 15-06-2008, 22:05 | cska, the thing you say about the Macedonian language having nothing to do with Greek is not correct. I didn't cite Greek sources, I cited wikipedia (or check any serious encyclopedia that is not from Greece, FYROM or Bulgaria). As I said, you can check texts from that period. About Thessaloniki, Thessalia and Macedonia you are not correct again. Check any encyclopedia (again not from Greece, FYROM or Bulgaria). Thessaloniki is not in Thessalia, Thessalia is not Macedonia. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: cska
Date: 16-06-2008, 11:05 | seso It is not greatly important whether Alexander was Greek or not. Not for the discussion about the name of Macedonia. It is important only for your own national pride, which I know very well and respect. About sources of Wikipedia or elsewhere - it is generally easier to support the idea that Macedonian language was related to Greek, because Western European countries have supported Greek national cause since 1828 onwards (unofficially, even before that). But if Alexander was Greek, why the Athenians called him "Barbarian" and "Uncivilized" and refused to aloow him to participate at the Olympics? About Thessaloniki - Seso, you really astonished me. I am not quite good in Greek language, but I can read in Greek and I know some basic phrases. If you call Greece "Hellas" (maybe more proper is Ellada) and "Greek" is "Elliniki", then "Thessaloniki" would mean "Thessalian". Why do you tell me that your Thessalian city is not in Thessalia??? If the city is not in Thessalia, why do you call it Thessaloniki? The problem with the name of Macedonia can be resolved very easily. But both in Greece and in Macedonia (FYR for your pleasure) can be found enough radical "patriots" who will never agree to make any compromise. I remember that few years ago there was an idea to be written a textbook for schools with the common (and commonly recognized) history of the Balkan nations. What a stupid idea, isn't it? Tell me which nation will be willing to accept what another nation states about itself? Tell me who in Greece will accept a history written by a Bulgarian or who in Bulgaria will acept a history written by a Greek. In fact, as a Bulgarian, I have nothing to be ashamed of. You have your democracy, your Aristotle and Plato, "your" Alexander. I have my Bulgars (named now "Proto-Bulgarians" to distinguish from present ones), who conquered China in 1st century AD and established one of their dinasties. They had the most precise calendar in the world (recognized by UNESCO). They founded the city of Balhara in India. They founded the city which later became famous as the city of Kiev in Ukraine. In 681, they defeated the greatest empire of its time and formed a country, which exists now, 1300 years later, in the same place and with the same culture, language and genes in our blood. In 863, we became the first Slavic Christian country and the first country in the world to have an independent church. In 855 we were the first country in Europe to adopt its own alphabet, suitable for our Slavic language. The father of Cyril and Methodius was a Byzanthine, but their mother was a Bulgarian. Lucky us. Among the presently existing countries in Europe, we are the oldest one. Greece is united country only after 1828. In 681, only Byzantium and the Frankish Empire existed. Neither of them survived until today. My country was one of the two to have stopped the Arabs in 717 at the gates of Constantinople (and the emperor greeted our khan in the city as a gesture of gratitude). My country was one of the two to have defeated the knights - in 1204 we defeated the Latin Empire near Adrianople. And what about more recent times? In 1912, the German military said that Adrianople was so fortified by the German engineers that even a German army would need 3 months to take it. The Bulgarian army took it in 3 days. There is no flag of our army captured by any other army and no museum in the world has a Bulgarian military flag. Our museums are full with British, French, Turkish and even Russian ones. Why? Because our army has not lost any battle between 1878 and 1945. Unfortunately, our stupid politicians succeeded in losing two world wars. So, the Bulgarians have no reason to lack national pride. And, Seso, I admire your invention of democracy much more than the conquests of Alexander. If you want to avoid reading the name "Macedonia", you should agree that you possess "Southern Macedonia" and that the independent country should be "Northern Macedonia". Otherwise, you will protest and the people here will still use "Macedonia". Because it's more convenient. Not because anybody here hates you. It's nothing personal. Just convenience. Kind regards from a fan of a no-longer-existing-club. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: executor
Date: 16-06-2008, 12:01 | {i>Because our army has not lost any battle between 1878 and 1945{/i> If it wasn't for us (and the Russians) to come wake you up, you wouldn't have had anything to brag about. So, I'm a bit disappointed you didn't mention our contribution to that record |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: cska
Date: 16-06-2008, 15:19 | Executor, We both are from small countries. ALL small countries in the Balkans needed a Great power to wake them up. Serbia was first in 1812. Greece was "woken up" in 1828. And you would not be called "Romania" if in 1859 after the Crimean War the Great Powers had not decided to unite Wallachia and Moldova frightened that Russia may try again to vassalize them and proceed with conquering the Bosphorus. Even your "gift" in 1878 was unwanted. Your parliament did not want to take a Bulgarian populated Dobrudja and cede a Romanian populated Bessarabia. But Russia demanded re-taking of Bessarabia and none of the Western powers wanted to defend you in arms. So, you simply agreed. After that, at the Berlin Congress France insisted that the Romanian outlet on the Black Sea should be greater and you received the land between Mangalia and Vama Veke. This was because the Westernpowers were afraid that a Slavic Bulgaria could be more easily annexed to Russia and they wanted to broaden the territorial gap. I aknowledge greatly your participation in the liberation war in 1878. However, it is a bit off-set by your intervention in 1913 when you simply invaded our country without being provoked to. Anyway, again in these times we, the minor powers, depend a lot on the Great Powers. We, the Bulgarians, can have only the small privillege to be proud of being a former empire. Like Austria was. Like Mongolia was. Like Turkey was. Like Macedonia (not the FYR) was Anyway, Executor, I have a question: If you also needed Russia to "wake" you, then where was your country before that? There were Dacians in Roman times, but they (like their cousins, the Thracians in Bulgaria) did not spoke language like your one is nowadays. They did not have a state. Wallachia and Moldavia emerged as states lately - in XIII-XIV century. And until XVII century Bulgarian (in its Church-Slavonic form) was the official language and Cyrillic was used in Wallachia. So, where exactly was Romania before "falling asleep"? I hope you will also put this for the records... |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: BalkanTourist
Date: 16-06-2008, 15:37 | A question to our Greek patrons: I read this topic through and through and decided not to get involved because I didn't want to cause any drama. I was just browsing through Wikipedia, I wanted to learn about Iran and so I took a look at their map. The Iranians have 2 regions in the west part of their country named East Azerbaijan and West Azerbaijan. I wonder why they don't cry to the whole world asking the country Azerbaijan to be renamed - FSROA (Former Soviet Republic of Azerbaijan). Any Greek thoughts on this? And don't tell me it's not the same as Greek/Macedonian because they are completely different. Azerbaijanis are of turkic origin and the Iranians are Persians. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: levski.bg
Date: 16-06-2008, 22:55 | executor: I think they mention Romanian soldiers also, like the guys, helping for our Independence. And they mention them every year, officially ! This topic rules, hehe. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: executor
Date: 17-06-2008, 08:20 | {i>There were Dacians in Roman times, but they (like their cousins, the Thracians in Bulgaria) did not spoke language like your one is nowadays.{/i> That is not entirely true. The language of the Dacians was combined with Common Latin to form the basis of Romanian language, which was later influenced by Slavic and Turkish. We have quite a lot of words of Dacian origin, and they are easily recognizable because they tend to contain the letters 'b', 'v', 'r', 'z' such as: {i>viezure{/i> (badger), {i>varză{/i> (cabbage), {i>barză{/i> (stork), {i>brânză{/i> (cheese) etc. So, as you see, there is stil a strong connection with the Dacians. {i>They did not have a state.{/i> I take it you never heard of Burebista (the first to unite all territories inhabited by Dacians) or Decebal (the one who fought Trajan and manage to hold Dacia for quite a long time) {i>Wallachia and Moldavia emerged as states lately - in XIII-XIV century. And until XVII century Bulgarian (in its Church-Slavonic form) was the official language and Cyrillic was used in Wallachia.{/i> This is true. Wallachia (or Romanian Country as we call it) and Moldavia emerged around that time, with Transilvania being under Hungarian occupation. And we did use Cyrillic, but not Bulgarian. It was Slavonic. And only for church use. Only later the Latin alphabet was adopted. These 2 states were constantly engaged in a struggle with the Ottoman Empire, a struggle that lasted centuries and produced great military leaders. I'll just mention Stephen the Great (Moldavia) - perhaps our greatest medieval ruler and Mircea the Elder (Wallachia). However, our resources were no match with that of the Turks and the inevitable happened. We were defeated, we had to accept rulers imposed by the Turks (Greeks from Fanar district of Istanbul) and payed tribute. In 1821 Tudor Vladimirescu lead a revolt against them, but was betrayed by, surprise, Greeks (Eteria). Then came 1848, an important year throughout Europe. And in 1859 Both Wallachia and Moldavia choose the same ruler, Alexandru Cuza. Now, I don't know from where you read that the Great Powers supported that. In fact, it was the opposite. They were shocked. Read HERE. This was a defiant act against them. They wanted us to be independent, but only if we had 2 rulers. They never clearly stated we weren't supposed to elect the same person in each country And then Romania became a kingdom under the Hohenzollern dinasty, a period of great achievements. First the independence of 1877-78 and then the Great Union of December 1st, 1918, a date which became National Day after 1989. This is our version of history. It differs slightly from yours and this is why it's a must to hear both sides of a story. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: executor
Date: 17-06-2008, 08:22 Edited by: executor at: 17-06-2008, 08:36 | {i>I think they mention Romanian soldiers also, like the guys, helping for our Independence. And they mention them every year, officially!{/i> Very pleased to hear that EDIT: I should add that there are a lot of streets in Romanian cities named after the strogholds in Bulgaria that we took from Turks: Plevna, Griviţa, Smârdan... And Rahova is a neighbourhood of Bucharest (not very pleasent, though). {i>This topic rules, hehe.{/i> Agree! |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: levski.bg
Date: 17-06-2008, 11:20 | executor: cheers |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: cska
Date: 17-06-2008, 11:46 | Executor This topic has its significance here. Yes, the forum is about football, but before everything else, we are people. And people talk. That makes us different from animals. We can communicate. We can socialize. It's difficult to just post about this and that football game if you can't socialize and get more acquainted with the other people here. Thank you for your post. It was useful to learn something more about Romania from a Romanian. You know, in every country you would learn at school only the history of your own country and you will have several general lessons on the overall history of the other nations. Well, the big events in world history cannot be omitted, but in Bulgaria you can hardly learn anything about your magnificent medieval Moldavian ruler. In Romania you cannot learn so much about the Bulgarian rulers. This is normal. One of the aims of schools is to nurture and encourage patriotism, to make children feel happy with their own nationality, not with someone else's one. By the way, it is not only about different perception of history in the different countries. It's different even how people think about history in the same country, but in different times. Do you know who is considered to be the greatest Bulgarian king ever? It's Simeon I the Great. He never lost a battle and Bulgaria spanned from the gates of Constantinople to Budapest and from Pellopones (Greece) to Dnieper river in Ukraine. All the present day Romania, Moldova, Greece, Serbia (with or without Kosovo) were part of his country. And besides that, he supported big cultural activity. Two big universities were opened in the beginning of X century (he ruled between 893-927) and 20 000 people became literate with mathematics and the Cyrillic letters. And do you know who was the greatest our king, but according to the people in X-XV century? The answer is: the sonof Simeon, Peter I, who is even called "coward" in some present day textbooks. Why medieval people thought differently? Because they appreciated peace in times when every 2-3 years there was a war. And Peter maintained total peace for... 40 years! And not a single kilometer of our land was lost to anyone. I think that maintaining peace, order and stability is much more admirable than winning battles which nobody wants to fight in. That is why I respect Greece for inventing democracy, but not for the conquests of "their" or "not their" Alexander. By the way, I am going to Constanta next week. last year, I was in Busteni. And my Romanian colleagues told me that in your history you speak about "Wallacho-Bulgarian" empire based on the fact that some of our kings were of Wallachian origin. It's true. But it's also true that when there was no Romanian country and your lands were Bulgarian, there were many Slavs who inhabited your country. Wallachia used Cyrillic alphabet and Slavic language in church not because it was a "fashion", but because it was needed by the common people. Last year when I was in Romania, I found out that I can understand you. I speak Italian. And 2/3 of your words arefrom Latin. The rest are from Bulgarian and Turkish (the same Turkish words as in my language). Also, as far as I remember, your warlord Mircea the Elder (whom you also mentioned) attacked the Turks when Bulgaria fell, because he was a cousin of our heirs-to-the-throne. And his name is also of Slavic origin. It means "Peaceful". In Bulgaria it is pronounced "Mircho", because "a"-ending is for female names. By the way, as our Greek friends started this topic, I have to admit that their position is not so "improper". It is not only about the name. The name problem is just a symbol of the history problem. The problem is that the present day "Macedonians" are of Slavic (if not exactly Bulgarian) origin and that is why they don't have their own history. They are trying to "steal" from Bulgarian history by naming "Macedonians" some of our best writers, scholars and revolutionaries. However, too much Bulgarian traces would not be so good for a "Macedonian" nation and they try to steal from Greece too. They name Alexander their "ancestor", which is absurd. They name Aristotle "Macedonian" and their "ancestor". They claim that they must have a united country including Northern Greece and South-West Bulgaria. Of course, they have no claims towards Serbia. Their "nation" was created by some Serbian nationalists who knew that Bulgarians could not be forced to call themselves "Serbs", but could be temptedto call themselves "Macedonians". That is why, people in Macedonia are still taught at school that Bulgarians are not Slavs, but Mongols. (in fact, the proto-Bulgarians were of Asian origin, but were just 10% of population and were assimilated by the Slavs whose language I speak). So, our Greek friends have their valid point. it's not just the name. But they must understand that our European friends who maintain these two forums and the prediction games (especially Bert, Lyonnaise, Edirnespor, Kaiser, Ricardo, Forza-AZ, etc, etc, etc.) have no harm to do against Greece. They just use "Macedonia" because it's more popular. For Greeks everything North to Saloniki (plus the city) is "Macedonia". For me everything South-West to Sofia is "Macedonia". For FYROM-ians even the Moon is Macedonian But in these two forums "Macedonia" is just a small country sending 1CL+2UC+1IT teams.Kind regards from a fan of a re-instated team to CL!!! |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: panda
Date: 17-06-2008, 12:08 | I love these topics, because it seems to me that we are able to use football (which could the closest thing to a universal cultural form (phenomenon? means of expression?) that the world has) as a kind of co-operative prism through which we look at history, politics, society etc. Football is deeply tribal, but usually (of course not when there is violence) in a good way; whereas in 'real life' we are constantly having to try and negoitate between being too tribal (=unable to co-exist) and being too universal (=loss of identity) It always amazes me how precise and how far back in time the historical stories that define identity go. In UK it is a bit different, probably because of a) just it is an island and b) the national football identities HAVE been preserved sort of independent of the political identities. Neverethelss, at a less intense level these identity conflicts are going on. Of course, we have to say that the connection with co-efficients can only be at two removes (= without defining countries, you cannot define where the clubs belong, and who the co-efficients therefore belong to). Nevertheless, this kind of topic is one of the things that makes this forum unique and special for me. You could give the text of this topic to any school pupil in any european country, and they would learn a lot, as I have from reading it. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: Spath
Date: 17-06-2008, 12:13 | at cska: "The city was founded around 315 BC by the King Cassander of Macedon, on or near the site of the ancient town of Therma and twenty-six other local villages. He named it after his wife Thessalonike, a half-sister of Alexander the Great (Thessalo-nikē means the "victory of Thessalians"). " Just to clarify the name thing. Thessaloniki is not in Thessalia. It was just a girl's name I'm greek and not especially proud of it. Just happened to be born here. I agree more with you than with most of my compatriots. But being anti-nationalist though doesnt mean I'm blind to the nationalist Macedonian propaganda about "The Great Macedonia" with Thessaloniki as its capital. Nor am I blind to the greek nationalist propaganda about "The Great Greece" with Constantinople/Istanbul as its capital. The name thing, as ridiculous as it seems to some of us, has some underlying connotations that cannot be overlooked. If all people thought like you cska and could see things from all sides, there would be definately no problem with any name. But we live in a nationalistic world and an especially nationalistic region with good reason of course since state borders havent been stable for long. One cannot afford to be too gallant about that stuff. National minorities tend to get invented pretty frequently nowadays, especially by the USA . So I have to aggree that Greece has a valid interest in the name of our neighbours. Isnt it a bit strange that Greece doesnt want the term Macedonia in the name and FYROM refuse to be called Northern Macedonia or Slavic Macedonia? Every state tries to use propaganda for its survival in an everchanging world. FYROM wants to be called Macedonia to have an open window to the Aegean Sea, a window that in all probability will never open, but it's sole existence is a thorn in Greece's back. Greece wants to close that window. History, heritage and symbols are adopted, with little consideration of the truth, by more or less all countries. On the other hand i disagree that it makes any difference what we call it here. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: cska
Date: 17-06-2008, 13:37 | @ panda Cheers ! I like very much your statement about things "too tribal" and unable to co-exists and "too universal" with loss of identity. The whole EU is a representation of this big problem. @ Spath Thank you very much about the clarification. I have always thought the city was named after the region it is a capital of. Also, your point is fully valid. I can do nothing, but agree with you. And it is nice that in the Balkans we can find also people who are unobsessed by nationalism. Patriotism is just to love your country and be ready to help it and the people in it. Nationalism includes blindfolded propaganda that you are "the God-chosen nation" in the world and the paranoia that everyone else in the world has organized a big conspiracy against your country. I am more positivistically oriented. In the news, I prefer the short praising of a totally unknown schoolboy/girl who became Olympic champion in mathematics instead of the long curses and critics against politicians, sportsmen or turbo-folk singers. (the last thought is not mine - I just share the opinion of a friend in the local sport forums) |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: ignjat63
Date: 17-06-2008, 15:49 Edited by: ignjat63 at: 17-06-2008, 16:05 | Inventing national minorities all the time? When Yugoslavia was formed it was called Kingdom of Slovenians, Croats and Serbs. Now there are Boshnyaks, Montenegrians (as a nation) and Macedonians (Serbs used to call Vardar Macedonia "The old Serbia"). Serb nationalists claim that it was done on purpose to deminish Serbian population. On the other hand when I visited CSKA Sofia's site I could not help noticing that Bulgarian language was very very similar to macedonian. But as we saw in this topic Greece has a point claiming rights on the name Macedonia. It is all like in that Kurosawa's movie. There seems to be no truth. Only interpretations. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: LevskiFan
Date: 17-06-2008, 17:03 Edited by: LevskiFan at: 17-06-2008, 17:04 | "I could not help noticing that Bulgarian language was very very similar to macedonian"  First of all...there isnt such thing as "macedonian language"! Second....bulgarian is not similar to "macedonian"....its "macedonian" that is very very similar to bulgarian...as its simply bulgarian dialect. Thats a FACT! I think u should've known that already |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: BalkanTourist
Date: 17-06-2008, 17:39 | I knew it was just a matter of time for this topic to be overran by Bulgarians. You see, Macedonia is the missing child of Mother Bulgaria with three daughters: Moesia, Thrace and Macedonia. For many Bulgarians Macedonia is a very touchy subject. I am personally very fascinated by that place, and everytime I read about it's history, especially the more recent one, my heart's crying. I remember watching a movie when I was a little kid about the uprising of 1903, and I am not 100% sure but I think it was Yane Sandanski who said that phrase that had stuck in my mind forever: "The name Makedonia (Macedonia) comes from the word "maka" (suffering in Bulgarian), because this land is filled with so much suffering". Everytime I hear Macedonian songs I get the goosebumps, and my heart starts beating faster. I was born in Moesia - Northern Bulgaria, but still my heart is in Macedonia. My Ukrainian girlfriend cannot understand why I am so attached to that country, especially when almost every Macedonian I meet calls me a Tatar (I am blond with blue eyes) and hates Bulgarians more than any Albanian, Serb or Greek. What the Turks could not do in 500 years, the Serb shauvinist and ultranationalists managed to do in 50. So sad!!! |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: ignjat63
Date: 17-06-2008, 17:43 | LevskiFan, I was thinking mathematically, sorry, if A equals B I sort of used B equals A. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: ignjat63
Date: 17-06-2008, 18:05 | "Everytime I hear Macedonian songs I get the goosebumps," Best music in the Balkans. More sokol pie Makedonsko devojce Bitola, moj roden kraj Aber dojde Donke...(my favourite) Zasto si me majko rodila Zajdi zajdi Kao sto e ta casa polna so vino Blaguno dejce Jovano Jovanke Bolen mi lezi mlad Stojan Eleno kerko |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: BalkanTourist
Date: 17-06-2008, 18:23 Edited by: BalkanTourist at: 17-06-2008, 18:54 | Best for a party at the table with some good slivovitsa and salad. My favorite is Makedonsko Devoyche. I also like: Ako umram, il' zaginam Biliana Platno Beleshe More Sokol Pie Yovano, Yovanke Ludo Mlado Zaydi, zaydi yasno slance Shumiat Shumite And many, many more.... Cheers!!! One day I will go there - Ohrid and Bitola, Prilep and Veles, Strumitsa and Shtip |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: bert.kassies
Date: 17-06-2008, 18:59 | The real difference between a language and a dialect is in the minds of the speakers. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: LevskiFan
Date: 17-06-2008, 19:09 Edited by: LevskiFan at: 17-06-2008, 19:17 | to some extent...ur right bert... @BalkanTourist.. the songs u mentioned really are beautiful....but if u want to get the real feeling of them...go to Pirin..Rodopite....these places in Bulgaria...where this beautiful songs/music originated and are best heard.... |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: BalkanTourist
Date: 17-06-2008, 19:37 | I grew up in Karjali, at the foothills of the Rhodopes, not too far from where Orpheus once lived. The Greeks claim he was Greek, you know?! I love the music from the Balkans in General. I like Greek as well as some Turkish folk music, Serbian and of course Bulgarian from all regions - Rhodopi, Shopluka, Dobrudja, Thrace, Northern Bulgaria, Pirinska Makedonia, Strandja and Sakar, but I love mostly Bulgarian music from Macedonia. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: levski.bg
Date: 17-06-2008, 19:58 | I love rock and metal |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: ignjat63
Date: 17-06-2008, 20:01 | yeeeaaaah!!!!!!!!! rammstein rulzzzz!!!!!!!! |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: BalkanTourist
Date: 17-06-2008, 20:06 | I love House! Roger Sanchez,Deep Dish,Danny Tenaglia, Erick Morillo and many others! Going to Miami next month. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: levski.bg
Date: 17-06-2008, 20:09 | Absolutely |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: panda
Date: 17-06-2008, 20:51 | How surreal is this topic now? I am just wondering whether what is written plays any part in whether things are considered language or dialect. If things are written the same, but sound very different, e.g. so different that speakers of the different dialects cannot understand one another, that is still usually called a dialect. ? |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: ignjat63
Date: 17-06-2008, 21:13 | Definitely not in serbian, and i can safely say, bulgarian and macedonian (sorry LevskiFan). |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: Kaiser
Date: 17-06-2008, 21:20 | I love rock and metal For that matter, me too |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: bert.kassies
Date: 17-06-2008, 21:46 | @panda. Maybe it's better to speak of "users" instead of "speakers". But in your remark on dialects what is the language and what is the dialect? Do you want to decide by majority? See e.g. wikipedia. Some quotes: "There are no universally accepted criteria for distinguishing languages from dialects" "This use of the word dialect is often taken as pejorative by the speakers of the languages referred to since it is often accompanied by the erroneous belief that the minority language is lacking in vocabulary, grammar, or importance." "Modern-day linguists know that the status of language is not solely determined by linguistic criteria, but it is also the result of a historical and political development." So almost back on topic. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: ignjat63
Date: 17-06-2008, 23:09 | In these parts the language is what is standardized and so in a way made official. For example, TV journalists must use it (most of the time), news papers are written in it etc. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: seso
Date: 17-06-2008, 23:20 | I agree that Rammstein are excellent!!! It's the best concert I've been to!! |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: cska
Date: 18-06-2008, 01:15 | Wow, this topic rocks!!! So, many people, so intense emotions, so much rock, metal, folk, beer, dialects, languages, some place names for flavor and maybe a bit of football... (Oops, maybe football itself was the least mentioned thing here...) First, I would appeal to my Bulgarian friends to try to put themselves in other people's shoes. Don't criticize Ignjat63 for his posts about minorities or languages. In his history textbooks, Macedonia was called Vardar Banovina before it became (F)YR in 1945. This is not a lie. Between 1913-1945 it was part of Serbia (or after 1919 the Serbian-Croat-Slovene kingdom). Before that, in medieval times that land was part of Bulgaria, then was fragmented into 30 small states, then was conquered by the Turks, then in 1878 was again in Bulgaria, in 1879 was back in Turkey and in 1912 was in Bulgaria before being ceded to Serbia after the war in 1913. With so many changes, it is not so surprising that there are different views and opinions. As regards dialects - it is always easier to specify the standard language. Dialects can differ so much from it that the neighboring country would also understand them. My mother was born in West Bulgaria. The local dialect there is so close to Serbian that I can understand Ignjat63 without the need of interpreter. However, even for her dialect, the grammar was still Bulgarian. Actually, we are Slavic, but Bulgarian (and "Macedonian") have some strong peculiraities. All Slavic languages have no articles - no "a / an" and no "the". In Russian and Serbian everything should be understood from context - there is no difference between "cat", "a cat" and "the cat". Not in Bulgarian. We have no "a / an", but we have "the". And we use it like... Romanians and Suedes. Our articles are post-positioned - "kotka" = "cat", "kotkata" = "the cat". Also, just like English and unlike any other Slavic language, we have no grammar cases - no Accusative/Dative/Genitive like in German or Russian. We speak only in Nominative, i.e. without changing word endings of nouns and adjectives. Every Serbian going to Macedonia or Eastern Serbia immediately recognizes how different the local dialects are from Serbian. The locals there use articles and don't use grammar cases. Maybe the biggest mistake of the Bulgarian state-founders in 1878 was that they chose a biased "standard" language. Because of ego-centrism and bias they selected the dialect of our medieval capital Veliko Tarnovo which is North-Eastern. In this way they alienated somehow the people from the opposite parts of our country and especially from Macedonia. Nobody was willing to listen to their complaints and later this blindness facilitated the creation of "Macedonian" language to serve the political ambitions of another state. So, it's not just Macedonians' fault. If our great-grandparents were not so far-seeing, then it's up to us to be a bit more tolerant. By the way, if you here how a Bulgarian speaks Bulgarian, you will re-shuffle your concepts of languages and dialects in total. Being "native" speakers, we don't care too much about the proper pronounciation or the official rules. Especially in Sofia, I may say that people speak closer to the Western dialects than to the "standard" language. If you are a foreign student who studied our "official" language, you may experience some hard times trying to understand the locals. Now, back to the topic in this thread... I like rock&metal, but I also like Balkan music (without any discrimination by country). However, the music I mostly like is NOT constant. It depends what pub I am in and how many beers/whiskeys/wines/...juices I have drunk. Having drunk 1 metre of beer at "Mayor's Pub" (1 metre = 9 mugs in a row = 4,5 litres), it would be somehow "uncomfortable" to listen to rock. I prefer turbo-folk (Bulgarians, Serbians, Greeks and Turks sing it well) on such occasions. And also, after CL/UC games drinking beer at "Gyuleto" (The Cannonball) can make good friendships between Levski and CSKA fans, especially if both clubs have won their ties... Believe me, after moments of football joy and after litres of beer, who cares whether Macedonia has FYR or AGE (Ancient Greek Empire) as a prefix??? |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: Kaiser
Date: 18-06-2008, 02:00 | So much off-topic lately... Maybe it can be an incitement to creating an off-topic category on Forum 2 since some people are burnig with the desire to post reports of their last concerts of Rammstein and tells us more about Bulgarian and Macedonian language |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: ignjat63
Date: 18-06-2008, 11:34 | it is true that we all have our historical views that differ from one another (country-wise). But it is most important that we are all peaceful people meaning no harm. Just talking and learning from each other. Even Serbian greatest nationalists (Radical party) have no claim over FYRMs teritory or language. A word about turbo-folk. In the beginning of 1990s rock scene died and got potless. So rockers (to their greatest horror) had to join folk scene to survive (at least many of them did). But that made some changes in folk arrangements. Instead of accordion synthesizers were used, instead of violin alectrical guitar (for solos) and instead of drums (or one small drum) they used rhythm machine. Also electric bass guitar instead of acoustic bass. The effect was similar to Bob Dylan using electical guitar in country music (he was influenced by the Beatles). In the beginning there was a lot of experimenting and most of the music was shit (also lyrics-wise). But not so any more. The word "turbo" is used to denote the influence of rockers. These days there is influence of different dance rhythm etc. And, cska, it is true, we say, the more you go to the south the less grammar you hear. Since Serbian is not Bulgarian, less grammar means more comic effects. In the last couple of years several sitkoms were made with heavy usage of Serbian dialect east of Nis (Vlasotince especially). Within serbian language it sounds like they did not go to school at all. I repeat, "Within serbian language". |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: BalkanTourist
Date: 18-06-2008, 12:36 | @ CSKA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#Case |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: cska
Date: 18-06-2008, 13:07 | Ignjat63 I didn't know where "turbo" in "turbo-folk"originated from. With us, we call it "pop-folk" if we like it and "chalga" if we degrade its name. Sorry to our Turkish friends. The derogatory "chalga" is a normal word in Turkish meaning (surprise...) "music". In Bulgarian "chalga" is derogatory, because initially Oriental rhytms were introduced in the songs and also because in the beginning many songs (and even now) are stolen from Turkey, Greece and Serbia and "covers" are made in Bulgaria. Derogation is because it is no longer an "art", but more a "copy-paste" operation. BalkanTourist Why did you think that I don't know my own language??? The link was unnecessary, because I know all that is mentioned and because I already explained it in my above posts(without extending it like in Wikipedia). All Very interesting! We successfully turned a topic about political controversies into a topic about inter-cultural amusement!!! Great! |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: BalkanTourist
Date: 18-06-2008, 13:20 | Because of this: "Also, just like English and unlike any other Slavic language, we have no grammar cases - no Accusative/Dative/Genitive like in German or Russian. We speak only in Nominative, i.e. without changing word endings of nouns and adjectives" |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: cosmin_ultrasteaua
Date: 18-06-2008, 17:05 Edited by: cosmin_ultrasteaua at: 18-06-2008, 17:07 | The derogatory "chalga" is a normal word in Turkish meaning (surprise...) "music". In Bulgarian "chalga" is derogatory, because initially Oriental rhytms were introduced in the songs and also because in the beginning many songs (and even now) are stolen from Turkey, Greece and Serbia and "covers" are made in Bulgaria. Derogation is because it is no longer an "art", but more a "copy-paste" operation. ---------------- We call that "manele" in Romania. I can't say I'm a big fan of that music. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manele But I do like balkan music. Like this (I also love the movie) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg44qKSbsdQ |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: levski.bg
Date: 18-06-2008, 17:13 | This movie ownz ! )). "Black cat white cat". The funniest movie which I ever seen |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: panda
Date: 18-06-2008, 17:15 | language and dialect OK- I have to admit I first thought of Chinese in this context. There is only one written language, and since it is pictorial, not alphabetical, there cannot be small phonetic variants (in the way that for example, Thomas Mann wrote a lot of one of his novels representing the dialogue of North German dialect with different letters and words, not just letting the reader imagine someone speaking the high German words in a different accent.) I speak Mandarin (originally the dialect of the people round Beijing) and I can understand all the dialects that are related to Mandarin. Cantonese has the same written language but I literally cannot understand a word of it (or of dialects like it) excpet for a few words I have picked up by going to eat in Chinese restuarants - like 'wok.' So these are dialects spoken by millions of people each, but people just call it one language. In England (just to clarify, I was born here, so I am a native speaker of English), I often cannot understand a word of what Geordies e.g. Gazza are saying (this is easily the hardest dialect or accent for me, Scottish /Welsh / Irish accents are usually transparent), no-one says their dialect is a different language. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: badgerboy
Date: 18-06-2008, 19:19 | A nice quote from Max Weinreich which I actually found in the "list of Chinese Dialects" section of the Wiki: "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy." The Wiki also has this on the contentious debate within China on the dialect or language question. I must admit I've always thought that there were an awful lot of different languages in China spoken by the various ethnic groups. All be it I thought/assumed that Mandarin was the standard languasge for business (the language of the "educated class" for want of a better phrase). Similarly to Russia - where I would expect the various "minorities" to speak their own language but use Russian as the language of mass-communication. And India - where English is used in this way. |
| Re: MACEDONIA? | |
| Author: cska
Date: 19-06-2008, 10:29 | BalkanTourist I still support what you quoted of my posts. We don't use cases for nouns and adjectives. Your link points to Wikipedia, which clearly says we use cases for pronouns. Can you distinguish "noun" and "PRO-noun"? PROnoun is not "professional" noun, he-he. It means "for (i.e., instead of) noun". We call it "mesto-imenie", i.e. "in the place of a noun". Tell me is there any European language that can do without cases in nouns? In English, they have no cases, but they make the difference between "I, me, my, mine, etc." The ending in People'S" is a remnat from Genitive (possesive) case. The anding of "whoM" and "hiM" is a remnat from Dative case - German speakers can confirm that M is the ending for Dative in masculine words (Latin speakers too).Panda Now, I have the clue from your post why you chose such a nickname for yourself Badgerboy Excellent quote! I fully agree. Army and navy can turn any dialect into a language All Interesting posts... I knew that medieval Chinese coins were square (and not round) because their hieroglyphs are designed to fit perfectly in a square. And hieroglyphs were used as numbers as well. So, any coin denomination had a square fitted hieroglyph. I never knew that two groups of people could use the same "letters", but pronounce them completely differently. In Europe, it's more often the opposite - different nations can use the same sounds, but write different sets of letters for a sound (like "sh" in English, "ch" in French", "sch" in German, one letter in Cyrillic equal to the mirror one in Hebrite, etc.). As regards "chalga" or "manele", I don't like it. But I like the original folk songs. And I mostly like them while sitting around the table with a big group of friends. As regards football, it seems that "chalga" will be heardon this Euro'08 for a bit more time than "manele" and "sirtaki"... If only Bulgaria and Serbia qualified, then Euro'08 would have had to be called a Balkan Cup. |