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Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: ambro2000 Date: 04-06-2008, 18:28	7 points have just been deducted from Steaua for the last season because of a coruption scandal. It's owner got a suspension for 2 years. Do you think UEFA is gonna suspend Steaua from European Cups for the next season?

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: Kaiser Date: 04-06-2008, 18:32	Sorry to bring it in here, but there's no reason to create a new topic. Yes, executor, there was a reason ------------------------------------- As for me, I hope Steaua would be excluded from CL because in this case Spartak Moskva would be seeded.

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: executor Date: 04-06-2008, 18:36 Edited by: executor at: 04-06-2008, 18:37	Well, OK then. I thought it was enough we had one on CSKA Sofia and one on Porto. Perhaps it should've been just one. No, Kaiser, Steaua would be replaced by Rapid (seeded as well). So, if Porto is out, Spartak is unseeded.

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: Kaiser Date: 04-06-2008, 18:39	No, Kaiser, Steaua would be replaced by Rapid (seeded as well). So, if Porto is out, Spartak is unseeded. I managed to forget that Rapid seeded... P.S. I think this season of CL has brought lots of surprises... Already 2 (and counting) exclusions...

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next sea
Author: zax Date: 04-06-2008, 18:42	Coruption ? are you high ? they were deducted 7 points because they motivated a third party to play corectly and in Romania the Football Federation has laws against this...but corruption ? wtf .......

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next sea
Author: blue_shark Date: 04-06-2008, 21:13	the idea is that uefa can't exclude steaua until they will have lost the appeal at the FA and the one in Lausanne. then uefa can exclude them and then they can appeal at uefa and again at Lausanne. i expect somewhere in between that steaua will win and thus be allowed to play CL next year.

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: executor Date: 04-06-2008, 22:01	Date: 04-06-2008, 18:08 Kaiser: {i>And Spartak Moskva unseeded{/i> Date: 04-06-2008, 18:32 Kaiser: {i>As for me, I hope Steaua would be excluded from CL because in this case Spartak Moskva would be seeded.{/i> Boy, you're mood is changing quickly!!

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: Kaiser Date: 04-06-2008, 22:06	executor, posting 'And Spartak Moskva unseeded', I was NOT happy about it. I still want Russia to have 2 teams in CL GS and have EVER wanted

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: honesty Date: 04-06-2008, 22:24	I hope that Liverpol wil play against Spartak in q3.

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: ekze Date: 04-06-2008, 22:27	... And Spartak still may be able to win this game ^___^

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: executor Date: 04-06-2008, 22:30	Oh, then you need a guide to Smile Definitions. = happy

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: honesty Date: 04-06-2008, 22:36	Yeah they will win it with 0-3 and probably with 0-4

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: Kaiser Date: 04-06-2008, 22:39	Ignoring honesty's post, I'd say that Spartak Moskva doesn't deserve being unseeded. Or at least drawing Liverpool. Last year showed it: Celtic - Spartak 1-1 Spartak - Leverkusen 2-1 Spartak - Marseille 2-0 ... I think what-goddam-ever their opponent is, they'll reach groups...

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: manny Date: 05-06-2008, 08:54	I know it might not even happen, but if rapid do get in at steaua's expense, then they will be seeded just above fiorentina and fiorentina won't be seeded.

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: honesty Date: 05-06-2008, 08:56	Ignoring trol's post i`d say that Spartak deserve to be unseeded in Uefa Champions League. They didn`t do something special in last years and they are not champions in their country. Spartak is a strong team and deserve a good oponent like Liverpol.

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: executor Date: 05-06-2008, 09:29	Manny, no, Rapid will take Steaua's place in the seeding list. The seeded teams won't change.

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: Ricardo Date: 05-06-2008, 12:32	Can anybody explain the difference between the Porto case and the Steaua? both were found guilty by the domestic FA. Until now I only heared about Porto being banned by Uefa. Why wasn't Steaua banned yet? Or did I miss a communication fronm Uefa? or is Uefa waiting for a (possible) appeal from Steaua?

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: bbi Date: 05-06-2008, 12:37	1) the portuguess federation decided to deducted points from porto about a month ago. the rulling in steaua case happend just this week so uefa didn't had time to rule anything about steaua. 2) what steaua did isn't strictly forbidden by uefa i believe. steaua offered money for a team to play good against a third team, which is illegal in romania.

Author: executor
Date: 05-06-2008, 13:05

1) Porto didn't appeal, thinking they'll just lose 6 pts now, instead of next season, cause the trial could've dragged on. Steaua will appeal

2)As even Becali said, there's only one type of corruption. Bribing = corruption. Steaua offered a bribe to U Cluj. When will people start realizing that and not hide behind: "They were trying to motivate them to win" ?? The job of U Cluj was to win. Why would they need stimulents?

Author: blue_shark
Date: 05-06-2008, 14:02

the prosecutors are also on the case. that's why i think FRF should have waited for the decision.
as i see it there are two possibilities:

1) the prosecutors close the case for lack of proof. this would be a huge blow for FRF and they will probably have to take back their decison of penalizing steaua and u cluj.

2)steaua win the appeal. the problem is the rulling must state that no corruption deeds were found. i know many of you think FRF won't change their decision, but...

bottom line, the case won't get to uefa. i guess rapid, vaslui and otelul may be interested in steaua being kicked out of europe next season, but without such a decision by FRF, uefa can't do anything.

many say that what steaua did is at the border line between legal and ilegal and that only romania has this law. false. it's just that in other countries nobody brags about offering money to other teams. plus, it's much easier to offer money to your opponents all season long so you don't wait for other results in the last games.

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: executor Date: 05-06-2008, 14:21	{i>The prosecutors are also on the case. that's why i think FRF should have waited for the decision.{/i> In Portugal, the Federation didn't wait either.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 05-06-2008, 16:24

In Holland we had kind of the same situation where Ajax paid Excelsior to win from AZ on the last matchday of 06/07. They actualy did, but never got the money. Ajax also did not became champion because of 1 goal (goaldifference with PSV). THis is open knowledge, but no punishment is given. To pay for a team to be better can be done. As long as it is not structural (if you pay a week every week, it is like you 'own' the club, and you can't own 2 clubs of course)

I wonder if Uefa (should) care what the exact reason of the punishment is. There was a punishment due to bribery, that's unforgiven nowadays at Uefa.
I understand that they await the final decision, I mean the (possible/probable) appeal of Steaua, but they can't wait forever.
The question is also, might Steaua be banished, may Romania move some teams around to fill all the CL & UC spots, or will the CL spot be lost (or replaced by a team from another country, e.g. the highest coefficient team (Milan

)

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: isidromv Date: 05-06-2008, 18:03	Offering money to third clubs to make their best in the last matchdays is also forbidden in Spain, but every season there is a lot of speculation abpout it. What is a fact is that some teams paly the best match of the season on the last matchday, when they have nothing to play for (but maybe money )

Author: ikoon
Date: 05-06-2008, 18:09

There is no coruption scandal in this case. The Romanina law don't see the money gave or promised to a third party for Winning like bribe, like they don't see the sportive prizes for performances like bribe also. We cannot speak about a coruption scandal, if this case didn't even get to a juridical court with this juridical label. So no corruption, let's move on.

Romanian FA prohibits the action of motivating a third party to Win starting with begining of the last season. So they prohibit the action not the intention, action which didn't took place. Nevertheless they decided to deduct points from Steaua and U Cluj, strategicaly placing this decision in the same day UEFA suspended Porto, for a totally different case (bribing reffs i think?), for the dramatic effect. There is no similarity with Porto's case, other that the domestic FA deducted points in both cases. In Steaua case we will attack the decision very firmly and i doubt it will remain, because it is ilegal (the action didn't took place, it isn't based on any juridical definitive decision of coruption, it's based only on a declaration of one player).

Will UEFA decide Steaua's expulsion from Europe only besed on a first degree FRF commision decision of points deduction? This i don't know, but they better not; as long as motivating third party teams to win is allowd (because is not prohibited) in their own competitions, such decision will seem hipocritical and indiferent. Let's hope the justice will prevail and not the hipocrisy and the theft. Cheers.

Author: blue_shark
Date: 05-06-2008, 18:30
Edited by: blue_shark
at: 05-06-2008, 18:31

@ikoon

why would someone even offer money to a team they don't play in the first place? for them to play better. why would you do that? because you think they won't play at full strength. and here there are again two possibilities:

1)they step aside and let their opponents win. this is corruption and so the other two teams have problems. so you don't have to offer any money since the law is doing its job. of course we are talking about romania, so we move on.

2)you offer money because you think that one team will not play at full strength because of various reasons: last game of the season, poor team, etc. and here is why i think it should always be considered corruption: by giving money to one side you can change the outcome of the game since playing your second squad, for example, is only penalized in theory by uefa.

Author: Kaiser
Date: 05-06-2008, 18:51

I really don't understand why UEFA takes lower teams from Bulgaria, Portugal and probably Romania. I think that such federtations should be just deprived one CL berth, so that (if Steaua excluded as well) Liverpool, Barcelona and Arsenal would be promoted to GS, Rangers, Panathinaikos and Basel to Q3, AND Dinamo Zagreb, Artmedia, Domzale, Goeteborg, Anorthosis and Tampere to Q2. I think this solution is better and we'll get more true champions in CL, rather than 'lower' teams such as Benfica, Levski and perhaps Rapid.

Author: ikoon
Date: 05-06-2008, 19:02

Coruption and bribe don't exist here. Bribe is defined like giving or promising to someone a sum of money or goods in order to determine that someone to NOT respect his work duties or to acomplish them according to the ILEGAL desires of someone. If the promise of money or goods don't require that person to nothing ILEGAL or non-contractual, 'the desire of someone' cannot be interpreted like ILEGAL. The purpose is not ILEGAL. Is not bribe. Is not coruption. Strictly juridical is legal.

But is much more than that, is a mean to fight the coruption itself. Is a necesity and a requierment to assure a minimul level of competivity in a league in which 50% of the teams don't exist to win and perform, but to traficate points, hidding in the shadow of a FA who do evetything to protect those points traficants: they incresed the teams number from 16 to 18, they eliminate one relegation quota and last year they prohibit any motivation of third parties and look now at this circus.

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next sea
Author: JC71 Date: 05-06-2008, 19:02	What??? The spots were earned by the country and are for the country, if for some reason Porto (or other) can't make seems logical that the next inline takes the spot.

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: Kaiser Date: 05-06-2008, 19:05	OK, what about saving number of European participants, however Portugal (Bulgaria, Romania) cannot have more than 2 (1) participants in CL? Other teams go to UEFA Cup. Otherwise, it seems to me not fair at all...

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next sea
Author: JC71 Date: 05-06-2008, 19:14	Again nonsense. The country already has their spots for CL and UEFA, if some club can't make, it's up to the Federation to give another name. I really don't see whats your point.

Author: Kaiser
Date: 05-06-2008, 19:20

On the one hand, you are right. I have not though about teams which were beyond UC zone and received UC berth by unfair.

On the other hand, I think that a team like Benfica should get CL berth cuz they did not deserve it due to 4th place.

OK, we can argue long about this, so let's stick to our own opinions.

And for sure if Steaua is excluded from Eurocups, then Romania will be really in hard situation, because Steaua is their best team...

The same with Portugal and Bulgaria. I think that Russia should not worry about saving 6th place in UEFA ranking, because their main competitors are already our of the race...

Author: honesty
Date: 05-06-2008, 21:17

@jc71 reading some trols posts it`s losing time.

Kaiser is for a long time a jolijoker.

Steaua didn`t bribed anyone. Uefa doesn`t punish what Steaua did.

They can`t prove that money where for U Cluj to play better.

Owner of Steaua is sustaining with strong proves that he wanted to buy a land somewhere in Cuj.

Only prove is someone declaration that a "person" from "he thinks but he is not sure from Steaua" promissed him "some money he dosen`t know how much" to play corectly and not to sale the match.

This is realy a big joke.

More than that the action didn`t took place.
Even if some people say that Becali promissed money still this have to be proved in a democratic country. There is the presumtion of "not guilty". Here in Romania is the presumtion of guilty.

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: honesty Date: 05-06-2008, 21:36	The man who found guilty Steaua and Gigi Becali for giving money to U Clu said on www.prosport.ro that Steaua can play in Champions League. More on this tomorow.

Author: executor
Date: 05-06-2008, 21:51
Edited by: executor
at: 05-06-2008, 21:51

{i>Owner of Steaua is sustaining with strong proves that he wanted to buy a land somewhere in Cuj.

Only prove is someone declaration that a "person" from "he thinks but he is not sure from Steaua" promissed him "some money he dosen`t know how much" to play corectly and not to sale the match.{/i>

Oh, really?! Look what we have HERE

Owner of Steaua: "I gave money so the game will be played fair"

So much for your defence. Sabotaged by the row model...

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: honesty Date: 05-06-2008, 22:01 Edited by: honesty at: 05-06-2008, 22:04	It`s irelevant. He did this cople of times in the past. 1 He didn`t gaved money. 2 He can say that he was refering to his players 3 He can say that this was a joke. ... etc. I don`t suport him but he has strong lawyers. All the persons implicated where set free for lack of evidence.

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: Kaiser Date: 05-06-2008, 22:18	Executor, don't you follow honesty's suggestion - don't lose time As for me, I think that UEFA should fine clubs instead of punishing then this way. I think that sins in the far past should NOT be counted. Otherwise, let's dig all clubs' sins in 19th century and deprive them a CL berth - that's a bullsh.

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next sea
Author: JC71 Date: 06-06-2008, 10:15	Porto just recently was judged (first ruling), before that they were innocent, has anybody before their trial. It's not UEFA fault that they took so long to judge the case. To me fines aren't enough, given that they are breaking the whole spirit of the game.

Author: ikoon
Date: 06-06-2008, 16:54

Well the things are more clear today and especially the UEFA's perspective on the 'Steaua's case'. Thomas Giordano, the head of UEFA PR Department gave an interviw to a romanian 'sport newspappers' (we call them tabloids in Romania).

- he said that UEFA will wait for a definitive juridical decision before pronuncing. Steaua has 2 domestic ways to attack this decision: the Appeal and CAJ.

- he made a total and pertinent distinction between Porto's case and Steaua's case, to the reporter's malicious question. 'In Porto's case there was 'corruption' without a doubt. The money gave to the refferees were bribe', he said. Regarding Steaua, he said, this is sometingelse and UEFA regulation don't prohibit these motivations. You cannot go more clear than this.

- he also said, that even if Romanian FA will label this case as 'corruption', they can ignore that label and make a decision according with the EU law.

Well, the Romanian FA didn't labeled its decision as corruption. They don't have the competence to put this diagnostic. They can only borrow it if there is a juridical definitve decision with this label from a juridical court. It was only the reporter's sick imagination that asked that question based on a lie.

From this interviw, i think is very clear that UEFA don't suspend clubs from eurocups for this type of actions, actions which are allowed in their own competitions as well, but for only for cases of corruption. This even if the the domestic FA decided to deduct points for this action.

In fact i think that the sanction romanian FA modified right after this case is ridiculosly unjustified and dramatical: the team will relegate. Untill now there was a 6-9p deduction and other sanctions (Steaua's owner will be forbidden 2 years for enetering any stadium, i think the new rules will forbid such person from any stadium forever and even from sport). You cannot give these kind of sanctions for actions which are allowed in euro-football and your own legislation allow them as well like perfectly legal civil contracts. I mean i understand that any FA has the right to his own calls, but this is just ridiculous.

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 06-06-2008, 19:06

I don't know much about the Steaua case, but this Reuters article shows a different view.

""No decision has yet been made on their application but a decision will be made by the disciplinary commission," UEFA general secretary David Taylor told a news conference in Vienna at the Euro 2008 tournament".

"(We will not have) any tolerance relating to any attempt to influence the outcome of any matches. So the Steaua case is also under consideration".

Author: ikoon
Date: 06-06-2008, 20:03

'UEFA is to review Steaua Bucharest's entry into next season's Champions League after the club was this week docked points by the Romanian Soccer Federation (FRF) over allegations of bribery.'

'Steaua were docked seven points on Wednesday by the FRF after officials and players were found guilty of corruption charges, but the deduction meant Steaua still finish second in the top division and are eligible to play in the third qualifying round of next season's Champions League.'

The bolded stuff, do not exists. Steaua was deducted for breaking the romanian FA regulation, who don't allow motivating other teams for obtaining a good result against a third party. To spoeak about corruption and bribery, there must be at least an ongoing court action and not even then if the action fail, but only when there is a definitve jurdical decision of corruption. The prosecution don't have the material to go to court with this accusation, because that action do not form the content of the bribery infraction.

I don't even want to speculate from which context were those quotes extracted, but as long as UEFA and FIFA regulations don't prohibit prises for other teams for a positive result, i could care less what is their tolerance to their own regulation.

And still they have to proove how such prize have the nature to influence the outcame of a match, because if the things (the influence) are very clear when you give some money to a team to loose (corruption), the things are not very clear when you give them a prize if they win, which is what theoretical they have to do, so those money shouldn't influence noting, but reward.

We will see what happens, but if they create this precedent with Steaua, they will have a lot of work in the future, because this never happened before and this decision will oblige them in the future. And they could have also problems with the EU law, who allows any person or institution to reward some sportive for a performance.

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 06-06-2008, 21:33

niti_rapid said:
"Bert very quickly i ll explain you what happened in the 7 th of may 2008. Some people in law with Steaua Bucharest's owner were in the city of Cluj-Napoca ( C.F.R. Cluj"s city )with a bag that contained some about 1.500.000 euro. Some public prosecutors from the Romanian National Department of Antycoruption who had listened their mobile phones, knew about the agreement (understanding ? )made between that people mention above and the owner of Universitatea Cluj and some good players of it, agreement that ,,says" :If you ll play fair or corect against C.F.R. Cluj in the 34 th leg of the domestic championship and manage to tangle them in their way to win the romanian title, we have here for you in one bag the money!. The match Universitatea Cluj-C.F.R. Cluj ended 0-1 and the prosecutors founded the bag of the people from Bucharest with themselfs. At about one month later Romanian Department of Antycoruption still have that bag , the procedure is going on and the Romanian Fottball Federation, through it"s Executive Comitee, decide that from Steaua must be taken about 7 points.
What s your opinion about the case?
Can happened something like happened to F.C. Porto?
Thank you in advance for your answer".

I'm no lawyer and it's impossible to judge on just some findings. I don't even know the exact UEFA rules. But if UEFA thinks that in this case they should say in public "(We will not have) any tolerance relating to any attempt to influence the outcome of any matches", then I'm not sure that nothing can happen.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 06-06-2008, 21:37

The question is: does Uefa wants to know the details!
Maybe they are only interested in the fact that the local FA punishes a team for some kind of corruption (local!! definition). If a local FA punishes a team, then Uefa says: exclusion!
Maybe they only look at the sevirity of the case to define if it is a 1 year ban, or a 2 year or 5 year???

Though I might not agree if this is allowed or not, Steaua is punished for trying to influence a game in a - for local authorities - illegal way. Why should Uefa have to trial Steaua all over again? They can just follow the local FA's ruling...

Author: ikoon
Date: 06-06-2008, 22:32

Bert wrote:
I don't even know the exact UEFA rules. But if UEFA thinks that in this case they should say in public "(We will not have) any tolerance relating to any attempt to influence the outcome of any matches", then I'm not sure that nothing can happen.

This afirmation is based on: Art. 1.04, letter d, from the admission criteries: 'the club shoudn't have been implicated in any activity of fixing or influencing a match to national or international level'.

Still, like i said, all the clubs, through their object of activity and license have ai imperative obigation to WIN or to make everything possible in this direction. It is forbidden an ilegal object of activity that says : 'winning is optional'. The proffessional license is given only in the sportive associations has an legal object of activity along with the other conditions.

So if we consider that UEFA regulation is based on this premise and it should, a sum of money given in case of winning shouldn't influence the outcame but simply reward the performance. Because this is what any team have to, to win so where is the influence?

That article should reffer to the cases in which money are given to loose, because only this action has the nature to influence 'the normal state, winning' and to change it.

What UEFA will do otherwise if, i, a subject of law with no official quality at any club i offer a sum of money like a reward to the players of X team if they beat Y team. It is my right to administrate my money as i pleased if i don't break any law, and for this case i have legal cover, there are civil contracts that allow me or anyone to do this. Will UEFA suspend me or what?

Author: ikoon
Date: 06-06-2008, 22:50

Ricardo wrote:
The question is: does Uefa wants to know the details!
Maybe they are only interested in the fact that the local FA punishes a team for some kind of corruption (local!! definition). If a local FA punishes a team, then Uefa says: exclusion!
Maybe they only look at the sevirity of the case to define if it is a 1 year ban, or a 2 year or 5 year???

If you will belive the head of their PR department, he stated very clear, that Steaua's case is different by Porto and will be treated diffreently and underline that those rewards are not prohibited by their regulations and are spread toward entire Europe. But surely others will judge the case.

I just want them to gave their decision in time (they said until 1 august we will know) so we can have time to attack it to Lausanne if it bring us prejudicies. Otherwise UEFA will not have to proove how action X influence result to a match, even if the action X is perfectly legal and according with the society object of activity and players work duties.

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: executor Date: 24-06-2008, 11:47	Steaua's appeal was rejected yesterday, after several postponements. So they remain with 7 pts deducted.

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: moro Date: 31-07-2008, 10:31	Can I make a wish? I would like Steaua Bucarest against Anorthosis Famagusta in CLqr3 this year.

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: aekition Date: 31-07-2008, 10:42	why do you make that wish moro?

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: bbi Date: 31-07-2008, 12:01	moro i have nothing agaisnt this. still better than madrid.

Author: moro
Date: 31-07-2008, 15:17

Why this wish? Becaus it's the perfect one.
1. - Steaua big favourit to pass and I'll be happy.
2. - because my favourit team CFR Cluj lost 1-3 at home at their first appearance in Uefa Cup against Anorthosis... Steaua's staff and fans kept crying all along last season what a shame on CFR and that CFR dont deserve to play in Europe, etc, etc. If Steaua with its glorious past will lose against this team, you can imagine the answers I'm preparing... I'll be happy again.

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: blue_shark Date: 31-07-2008, 16:01 Edited by: blue_shark at: 31-07-2008, 16:02	the stakes are way higher this time. it's CL, last year it was UC. everybody knows most teams loose big money during a UC campaign, where as CL brings a big cash flow. so, no, a steaua- anorthosis fixture would not prove anything to anyone, no matter the result.

Re: Steaua Bucuresti our of European Cups next season?
Author: moro Date: 31-07-2008, 19:02	if your team will loose against Anorthosis it'll be the time to close doors, the stakes have nothing to do here; last year Anorthosis played the best they could against CFR, they'll do the same again. Unfortunately, unless the guy from Goa wants to bet again on the draw, there are only 6.6% chances to see Steaua vs Anorthosis.