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Author: Malko
Date: 18-04-2008, 11:43

It is known that the winner of the French Cup has a UEFA-Place. If the winner is already qualified for CL, the finalist goes to Uefa-Cup (which is not the case in Ligue-Cup, where only the winner goes to UEFA-Cup, the Uefa-Cup-Spot beeing given to a qualifier by championship).

Now, the semi-finals
are

Lyon-Sedan
Amiens-Paris SG

If in French cup, it comes to a final Lyon vs PSG , what will happen...because:
Lyon will be in CL next year
PSG is already qualified for UEFA-Cup by winning the League-Cup.

Will the spot go to
1) a qualifier by championship

or

2) a winner of a game Sedan vs Amiens?

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: Edgar Date: 18-04-2008, 11:48	I think it's 1. Malko, I need some info on Luxembourg on Forum 2. Please help me out.

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: badgerboy Date: 18-04-2008, 12:12	Next team in the league - without question.

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 18-04-2008, 16:55	@Malko You look at it the wrong way around. First you have to look at the Cup, so if the final will be Lyon-PSG, then PSG takes the UEFA-cup spot of the Cup. Then you have to look at the league cup. PSG won it, but since they already have qualified via the Cup, the UEFA-cup spot of the league cup will go to the next team in the league (so 5th placed team will also qualify then).

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: Malko Date: 18-04-2008, 19:17	Forza and badgerboy, this seems to be completetely logical. Thanx.

Author: panda
Date: 21-04-2008, 13:55

Actually, to nit-pick, the cup winner's and the cup runner-up spot are not quite the same, is that not the case? i.e. the cup winner gets the 'top' UEFA space and the cup runner-up the 'last' one, so below the league cup winner.

Since we are always talking about the same team, PSG, it makes no difference as to who will be playing. But I guess in a case where different teams start in different rounds (I have not looked this up), it would matter whether one qualified as association cup winner, league cup winner or association cup runner-up

Author: badgerboy
Date: 21-04-2008, 14:12
Edited by: badgerboy
at: 21-04-2008, 14:14

Panda is quite right.

Actually the question of the exact order - when it comes to League Cup winners - will matter more after 2009-10. Up to now - with only France & England having League Cups (which lead to a European place) & all teams from those countries starting in the same round it's been irrelevant.

But from 2009-10 the last qualified French & English teams will start a round early.

I think the only rule that really matters though is that a team qualified as Cup Winner should always be at the top of the qualifying list & a team qualified as cup loser at the bottom.

The League Cup winner (assuming they don't qualify already through a higher league position) should be behind a Cup Winner & any team qualified via league position but ahead of a Cup runner-up.

UEFA are holding a review of qualification procedures though. This will hopefully lead to the axing of cup losers - which will simplify the rules wonderfully!

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: bert.kassies Date: 21-04-2008, 16:23	panda, badgerboy, I think the way Forza-AZ formulates the order is the best: "The cup winner qualifies first. All other teams qualify in order of the league (including the cup-loser or league cup winner)."

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: Ricardo Date: 21-04-2008, 16:42	"This will hopefully lead to the axing of cup losers - which will simplify the rules wonderfully!" Another simplification would be to lose the LeagueCup qualifiers. That's what making it difficult! I think Bert is right here. depending of the cuploser's or LeaguCupwinner's position in the league one will be above the other

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 21-04-2008, 16:54

Yes, losing cupfinalist should not always be last. That just depends on the position they have in the league. Take this example for France:

-A team qualified for the CL wins the Cupfinal versus the 4th placed team.
-League Cup is won by 8th placed team.

So accoring to badgerboy the losing Cupfinalist should be last, so below the Leaguecup winner, but they are below the 5th placed team then. That makes no sence.
I think it's just about the league-order, so losing cupfinalist will take the 1st UEFA spot, 5th placed team takes the 2nd UEFA spot and leaguecupwinner takes the 3rd UEFA spot. So when the last UEFA spot will start 1 round early in this example the leaguecup winner has to start in the early round and 4th and 5th placed teams in a later round.

To just put it simple:
1st spot: Cup winner
2nd and further spots: other teams qualified according to their league ranking
If Cup winner is qualified for CL, then all UEFA spots are divided by league ranking.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 21-04-2008, 17:09

Yes - that's definitely the best way of looking at it.

I was looking for the simplest way to express it earlier but couldn't find it. And was too lazy to look up the old thread where Forza-AZ explained it so well in the past.

I know we already have the wiki, key archived topics & explanatory pages of how coefficients work on the main site. But I wonder if things like this should be "sticky topics". Quite a lot of sites have a few topics (usually covering questions that people ask regularly) that always stay at the top of the forum as reference for new users (and old ones that forget things).

Author: MartinW
Date: 22-04-2008, 07:19

"The cup winner qualifies first. All other teams qualify in order of the league (including the cup-loser or league cup winner)."

But what happens if:
- Team X finishes 12th in the league and loses the FA Cup Final to a team already qualified for CL (so qualifies for UC)
- Team Y finishes 14th in the league but wins the League Cup Final (so qualifies for UC)

In this case is Team Y ranked above Team X because League Cup winner has priority over FA Cup runner-up? Or does it follow the league position so that X is ranked above Y?

Author: Ricardo
Date: 22-04-2008, 08:32

leagueposition.
That's what makes it complicated. As well the cup-loser as the LeagueCupwinner are defined as lowest in qualification ranking
I think you must see it as: qualification method does not matter, except for the Cupwinner, who will jump up to the first qualification spot.
(And I thought Ihad explained it so clear and correctly in the past stating the leagueranking was important, but apparently Forza's mentioning was more memorable)

Author: badgerboy
Date: 22-04-2008, 11:18

Actually MartinW's question is the bit that I've always had doubts about too. Another aspect I forgot yesterday...

I get it in ForzaAZ's example (& Ricardo's)

when the cup loser or league cup winner have finished in league positions that would've qualified them for Europe via the league in any case.

But when neither have - I'm not 100% convinced that say a 12th-placed League Cup Winner wouldn't take priority over a 10th-placed Cup Final loser. I suppose this has never actually happened though to test it out - and there's been no need to clarify it in the past because it hasn't affected anything important.

Author: dzomba
Date: 22-04-2008, 12:03
Edited by: dzomba
at: 22-04-2008, 12:16

I haven't been included into this discussion from the beginning, so i don't know all the arguments you have revealed (too much text to read it all), but i have never had a question about it.

There are two aspects of discussion, which i think should be independent:

1) Who qualifies ?

Order is

Cup winner (or loser)
League cup winner (only)
Championship 5th
Ch 6th
Ch 7th
etc ...

2) Order or qualified teams
(There can be a distinction between them, first few sometimes play one qualification round less than last few - depending which country we are talking about, also if they have same coefficient first few can be seeded while last few are unseeded)

Cup Winner
Ch 5th
Ch 6th
Ch 7th
League Cup winner
Cup loser
Intertoto
Fairplay

(I am not 100 % sure about LC winner, i think he is below Ch spots - i don't know is it the same for all countries)

So League cup winner qualifies no matter of his Championship position, using LC spot (not Ch spot), but in case he qualifed both via League cup and Championship, he takes better ordering, but it still uses an LC spot.

That's my interpretation, i've never had doubt about it, especially about qualification.
But i've never studied ordering of teams, and cannot remember any similar case. (Is it unique ordering from UEFA, or every FA order them with own rules !?)

Author: pit
Date: 22-04-2008, 16:37

Two comments:
1) the discussion is absolutely on time - should Lyon and Amiens win the semifinals, and should Lyon wins (most logically) the final against Amiens, then we are exactly in the situation both PSG and Amiens not to qualify via their league position but only as League Cup winner resp. losing Cup finalist
2) I believe the answer could be found in the UEFA Cup regulations:
"1.02 c) Three representatives: winner of the domestic cup and the two clubs which finish the top league domestic championship immediately below the club(s) which qualify for the UEFA Champions League."
"1.03 In special circumstances, the winner of another official domestic competition may be entered for the UEFA Cup instead of the lowest ranking top domestic league championship representative referred to in paragraphs 1.02c) and 1.02d), provided such a competition has been approved by UEFA before the start of the season in question (see Annex Ia)."
"1.04 If the winner of the domestic cup qualifies for the UEFA Champions League, the domestic cup runner-up may qualify for the UEFA Cup. Should both these clubs qualify for the UEFA Champions League, the association concerned may enter in the UEFA Cup the club which finishes the top 2 domestic league championship immediately below the other club or clubs qualifying for the UEFA Cup. In both cases, the access stage initially reserved for the domestic cup winner is allocated to the club which finishes the domestic league championship in the highest position out of all the clubs which qualify for the UEFA Cup from the association concerned (see Annex Ia)."
1.03 says that in the case of France and England (3 UEFA Cup slots) the LC winner takes the place of the second league entrant.
1.04 says that the losing Cup finlaist loses the Cup Winner slot, and it goes over to the club with the highest league position.
So the only not explicitly answered question is what slot should take the losing Cup finalist - I would say, after all league entrants (and do not forget - instead of the last league entrant it comes the League Cup winner).
So in this case: 1. league entrant1, 2. League Cup winner, 3. losing Cup finalist

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 22-04-2008, 17:30

So everybody agrees on this:

1. Cup winner
2. team(s) qualifying via the league

Then the question is what comes 3rd? League Cup winner of losing Cup finalist.

If you indeed follow the regulations, then you come to the conclusion that the League Cup winner is in fact treated as a team that qualified via the League. So that means they have to be treated as the last team under point 2., which will mean they are above the losing Cup finalist, even if they are ranked below the losing Cup finalist in the league.

So lets take the following (extreme) example:

-A team qualified for the CL wins the Cup final versus the 5th place team (in France)
-league Cup winner is 6th

What will then be the order of the UEFA-cup teams?

Following the exact regulations it would be:

1.4th placed team (qualified via League)
2.6th placed team (league Cup winner)
3.5th placed team (losing Cup finalist)

This however looks very strange this way, as you also can say that all teams qualified via Cups are in the top 6, so just the top 6 will qualify for CL/UEFA-cup. But still the 6th placed team would start later then the 5th placed team.

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: bert.kassies Date: 22-04-2008, 19:20	It is quite possible that the answer to this question will never be known for 100%. From 2009 onwards UEFA is expected to change the rules by dropping the spot for the losing Cup finalist. And since clubs from England and France currently all qualify for the 1st round we don't know the order. UEFA doesn't publish the order of qualifying. Probably they don't know either.

Author: dzomba
Date: 24-04-2008, 13:31
Edited by: dzomba
at: 24-04-2008, 13:39

No, Bert.
UEFA knows it very well.

Why are all of you so confused ?
I understand it completely.

As i said, using spots and ordering of teams is independent.
Cup spots are used, no matter of league position, but ordering is made independently.

Order is

Cup winner
Championship places
League cup winner *
Cup loser *
Intertoto
Fair play

* (About this i am not 100 % sure, i think LC winner is above cup loser, to be sure i have to look at older data, what i cannot now)

100 % sure !

How do i know ? Look at the seedings for a draw. Especially QRs. This is order of seedings. Also look at the access list. There are examples.

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: executor Date: 24-04-2008, 13:42	{i>Look at the seedings for a draw. This is order of seedings.{/i> What seedings? Those for UCR1? This season, for instance, UEFA put Atletico Madirid (IT) above Getafe (losing Cup-finalist). However, Atletico finished above Getafe in the rankings. But they also put AIK Stockholm above Elfsborg, the champion...

Author: dzomba
Date: 24-04-2008, 14:12
Edited by: dzomba
at: 24-04-2008, 14:38

No, my data (from officially UEFA data) shows that Getafe was above Atletico in R1. The same, Elfsborg was above AIK, but they were in different groups. But these are not good examples, because both teams have equal seedings (seeded or unseeded).

For good examples you have to find clubs with the same coefficient. I'll mention some from this season.

Ireland:
Drogheda ----- Ch place -- 2.145 - seeded
St. Patricks - cup loser - 2.145 - unseeded

Sweden
Helsingborg -- Cup winner - 3.478 - seeded
Hammarby ----- Intertoto -- 3.478 - unseeded
Hacken ------- Fair play -- 3.478 - unseeded

This is proof.

Order at seeding lists also follows these rules. I believe they are official (not random), but i cannot prove that. Order at access list too.

Access list examples:

Aberdeen - Ch place - starts in R1
Dunfermline - cup loser - starts in QR2

Club Brugge - Cup winner - starts in R1
Standard - Ch place - starts in QR2

etc...

Since only a few countries have League cup, it's hard to find examples with league cup teams. And i do not have old data with me.

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: executor Date: 24-04-2008, 14:53	dzomba, trust me, UEFA put AIK above Elfsborg. It's easy to see that if you have at least basic knowledge about UCR1 grouping. The other case is more difficult to prove, but the switching can only make sense if Atletico was above Getafe. Perhaps when it really matters, they follow the rules strictly. But when it isn't so important, they have other criteria.

Author: dzomba
Date: 24-04-2008, 15:56

@ executor: ''It's easy to see that if you have at least basic knowledge about UCR1 grouping.''

What this means ?

UC R1 (draw) groups consist of 5 seeded and 5 unseeded teams. In group with AIK there was another team with even smaller coefficient, while in Elfsborg's group not. But that does not mean AIK was higher. UEFA does not make draws with tennis formula (1, 16, 17, 32 etc.). UEFA just divides them into seeded and unseeded. All seeded are equal, and all unseeded are equal. So the worst seeded can get the worst unseeded team, and the best seeded can get the best unseeded.

By the way, where do you find your data from ? I trust my data because i collect it very carefully. I would not believe you. Prove me if you want to make me believe.

I think UEFA strictly uses these rules. Until now i haven't found an exception.

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: amirbachar Date: 24-04-2008, 16:11	To dzomba: It is not as simple as you think. There is complex grouping for UC round 1: http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/seeduc2007.html

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: bert.kassies Date: 24-04-2008, 16:42	dzomba said: "No, Bert. UEFA knows it very well.". My remark is only about the order of league-cup winner vs. cup loser. The very aspect about which you are not 100% sure.

Author: dzomba
Date: 24-04-2008, 18:00
Edited by: dzomba
at: 24-04-2008, 18:03

@ Amirbachar,
No, complex are only ''geographical rules'', because there are always exceptions in this Geography, but seeding alone is simple.

@ Bert
I have to examine some older data, to see if there are examples with league cup winner.
For this season we have access list. There you can see ordering of French teams, but there is no cup loser. Previous year (06/07) the same.
In England there is cup loser, but no League cup winner for 06/07.
We have only Scotland, France and England with league cup.

Can someone help me, in which year happened that Cup winner qualified for a CL, and League cup winner not in those 3 countries ?!

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: amirbachar Date: 24-04-2008, 18:04	Look at the link I gave you. There is some sort of "snake" (I don't know what else to call it). For example, the best seeded cannot play against the best unseeded.

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: dzomba Date: 24-04-2008, 18:07	It has not happened maybe, but why do you think they cannot play each other ?

Author: amirbachar
Date: 24-04-2008, 18:10

I will copy the explanation from the link:

For the draw of the 1st round the 80 teams will be divided into 8 groups of 10 teams. Each group consists of 5 seeded and 5 unseeded teams. The exact method of the distribution of teams over the groups is unknown, but some characteristics can be found in the draws of previous years. The process appears to start with the following initial distribution of clubs (1-80 based on ranking) over the 8 groups:

pos G1 G2 G3 G4 G5 G6 G7 G8
1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
2 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9
3 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
4 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25
5 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40
6 48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41
7 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56
8 64 63 62 61 60 59 58 57
9 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72
10 80 79 78 77 76 75 74 73

Changes are applied with the following rules in mind:
1) no country can have two or more teams in the same group,
2) the title-holder is not treated as top-seed but ranked by coefficient,
3) changes are applied only at the same row (or the same position in the groups).

When changes are required for one or two groups they are usually applied by swapping teams at the same row. For a single group the swap is usually done with a team on the same row with a lower coefficient (if possible). These rules cannot explain all changes made by UEFA.

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: dzomba Date: 24-04-2008, 18:30 Edited by: dzomba at: 24-04-2008, 18:35	Hello Bert, one question What are the origins of data above, and from when ?! @ Amirbachar Where do you read that best seeded can't play best unseeded ? I cannot read it here.

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 24-04-2008, 18:45

dzomba, it is written in the text itself:
"The exact method of the distribution of teams over the groups is unknown, but some characteristics can be found in the draws of previous years."

You may check the draws since 2004 en see the pattern. Also see some old forums topics: UEFA's computer, UEFA Cup group stage constraints, and How will the seeding groups for UEFA R1 be?.

And please note: it is just theory. These "rules" cannot explain all changes made by UEFA.

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: dzomba Date: 24-04-2008, 18:58 Edited by: dzomba at: 24-04-2008, 18:59	I am suspicious to ''Title holder is not top seed''. But i have never examined in details (It's just one round specific draw).

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: executor Date: 24-04-2008, 19:04	{i>But i have never examined in details{/i> Then you should trust us. We have

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: MartinW Date: 25-04-2008, 05:50	Those interested to investigate this could think about the following situations: 2004: Middlesbrough won League Cup, Millwall were FA Cup runners up 1999: Tottenham won League Cup, Newcastle were FA Cup runners up

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: dzomba Date: 25-04-2008, 12:07 Edited by: dzomba at: 25-04-2008, 14:41	Thanks MartinW For sure I do not have data for 1999, but maybe i can find some data from 2004. Anybody knows about Scotland, when League cup winner and FA cup loser (two different clubs) didn't qualify for a Champions league (while FA cup winner qualified) ? Has it ever happened (with Rangers' and Celtic's dominance that probably happened very long ago) ? Too many conditions, i am affraid ...

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 25-04-2008, 16:45	The league Cup winner of Scotland doesn't qualify for UEFA-cup, so that is not of interest in this topic.

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: dzomba Date: 25-04-2008, 21:54	Oooh, So they play it just for fun ?! I didn't know. I thought it's serious competition, since they play it for years.

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: Floridian Date: 26-04-2008, 02:04	dzomba, Many countries have some sort of League cup, but only in England and France FA has decided to give one of the UEFA spots to the winner of such competition. In other countries teams are playing not just for fun, but for a piece of silverware and some bragging rights for their fans.

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 26-04-2008, 11:35	And I also think UEFA won't allow it if Scotland wanted to send the league Cup winner to UEFA, as they could mean that all 2 UEFA-cup spots would be going to Cup-winners and none to the best league position.

Author: dzomba
Date: 26-04-2008, 11:49
Edited by: dzomba
at: 26-04-2008, 11:53

Yes, many countries have League cup, but not as serious competition. For example German league cup is such competition.

But Scottish League cup is much better, it has good schedule, good calendar, good competition format, League cup final has it's own weekend, when the league games are postponed, etc. That's how normal competitions function.

Playing League cup before season starts is not a serious competition, like in Germany, and some other countries.

But i understand that it would be stupid to send two cup representatives and none championship representatives to Uefa cup, so i understand such decision from Scottish FA. But maybe in new UC format that could change ?! Although it's more about luck in the draw than about success - only clubs who avoid Celtic&Rangers have a decent chance to win it, at least before the final or SF.

Still i consider only English, Scottish, and French League cup as serious competitions so far, although some countries also try to make it more serious recently.

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: Overgame Date: 26-04-2008, 13:06	In Belgium, a few years ago, the winner of the league cup got a ticket to the IT. In the new system, Scotland will have a 3rd UC ticket, they could use it. But, frankly, i don't like the league Cup, i find it useless :p

Re: UEFA-Place France : What will happen?
Author: bert.kassies Date: 26-04-2008, 16:42	dzomba said: "so i understand such decision from Scottish FA". It is not the decision of the Scottish FA. UEFA only allows league cup winners in the UEFA Cup for countries ranked 1-8.