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Author: badgerboy
Date: 01-06-2007, 19:10
Edited by: badgerboy
at: 01-06-2007, 19:10

This has been "in the news" for a while now I think.

The "coefficient bit" gives a good excuse to include it here.

The first results mentioned "doubling in size" with names like Chelsea, Celtic, Rangers, Red Star Belgrade & Galatasaray among those in the frame to join.

More interesting to me though is this World Soccer report which is the first suggestion I've seen that they might be planning on "going global". Club teams from other continents to be included.

Oh & Platini has called on the organisation to dissolve itself completely.

Re: G14 to expand - based partly on UEFA coefficients.
Author: moro Date: 01-06-2007, 19:33 Edited by: moro at: 01-06-2007, 19:33	As I've already said, G14 must be the (single)biggest obstacle for Platini to "make his revolution". Anyway, a day will come when that "Union" will make her-own money-league, I just hope it's not gonna be soon. I'm scared of what can happend with football because of the clash between uefa and G... imagine all players from that "league" banned from international competition...

Author: ignjat63
Date: 01-06-2007, 19:51

Nothing much to discuss here except our own views. I am firmly against any compromise and I would like to see G whatever having their own money competition and leaving UEFA completely. I do not think they will leave their own domestic leagues to make an American type competition.

But I would like to see such a competition. 20 or 30 something clubs which have outgrown football as it is now. I do not see any reason why would it be a bad idea.

Their departure from UEFA would probably make UEFAs competitions what they are supposed to be - more sport than bussiness (although they are bussiness too)

Author: moro
Date: 01-06-2007, 20:55

I dont really know in detail who's in G14, but I can tell you that top teams changes every 5-10 years. Move the G14 15 years ago and see how many teams would've been out of it. What was Lyon 10, 15, 25 years ago? Now they're G?????
Those teams grew up partially due to Uefa CL money, plus russian oil

To make such a league would be the proof of disregard to all of us. Maybe many other teams will be stronger and stronger every year and become better than most of teams from that G.

Re: G14 to expand - based partly on UEFA coefficients.
Author: bert.kassies Date: 01-06-2007, 22:14	For me it's a mystery how the membership of clubs from Asia, Africa and the Americas can be based on UEFA's club rankings.

Re: G14 to expand - based partly on UEFA coefficients.
Author: moro Date: 01-06-2007, 22:59	Bert, I dont get it, can you explain please?

Author: ikoon
Date: 02-06-2007, 08:14

I would give them money, just to leave. Maby so UC and CL may still be saved. But they must make up their minds sooner better than later.

They cannot give membership based on UEFA rankings, because the ranking are changing, the membership is not.

The only reason from inviting clubs from another continents are market related, i guess. A newly formed competition, would atract more viewers this way, but they would still have to make the bet sooner or later.

Re: G14 to expand - based partly on UEFA coefficients.
Author: antonio62tr Date: 02-06-2007, 08:37	Red Star and Galatasaray are neither rich nor high ranked clubs...What type of expansion is this?

Re: G14 to expand - based partly on UEFA coefficients.
Author: bert.kassies Date: 02-06-2007, 10:12	moro, isn't it obvious? UEFA's club rankings only rank European clubs. How can you base the membership on these rankings and at the same time bring in clubs from other continents?

Author: badgerboy
Date: 02-06-2007, 12:56

Bert

I see your point reading the quote from Jean-Michel Aulas in the link I gave.

However, Thomas Kurth, G14 General Manager actually says:

"Sporting excellence will be based mainly on a club's performance in European competition and will take into account their UEFA club ranking...But if a club has a geographical advantage, this could compensate for a poor ranking,"

Full article

Obviously, I take it as read that clubs from outside Europe will be selected based on some other criteria!

Although there are only "rumours" of likely new members so far & the expansion is talked about for 2008 - I would've though that the inclusion of Crvena Zvezda in the list of "potentials" as a "former European Champion that is still one of the main powers domestically" (my words) then I would've thought Steaua would be "on the list" too.

It will be interesting to see how the "dynamic" changes if G14 does become less "elitist".

Here also is a BBC article about Platini's call for the group to disband

To me there's a lot of "politicking" going on. Platini appears to be a "voice of reason" who wants everyone pulling in the same direction. It must be pretty obvious to the bigwigs at G14 that their current membership is far too narrow for them to have a chance of winning "popular opinion" against UEFA - especially UEFA under someone like Platini. Expansion into the far corners of Europe makes them slightly less elitist - whilst expansion outside Europe (whilst discussed before according to the Fox article) seems like a reasonable (& somewhat cunning) way of avoiding Platini's call to bring G14 under UEFA's umbrella. How can they if their membership is worldwide?

One other interesting development - which I've only heard mentioned in passing previously - is the Champions Youth Cup. Is it a "G14 competition" or not? Certainly the field might possibly be an indicator of three of the potential new members?

The Champions Youth Cup will take place in Malaysia from 5-19 August. This Cup - for players at U-19 level - will comprise 16 club sides. 11 are members of G14. In addition there will be teams from Chelsea, Boca Juniors & Flamengo. The hosts are also represented by a Malaysia XI and there is a "host invitee team from Asia" - a Qatar XI. Interestingly, Chelsea are described on the official website as "a host invitee team from Europe" - distinctive from the other "11 European teams (G-14 members)".

There has been some stuff in the press about this tournament but I've missed most of it. I have a feeling it might prove to have important long-term consequences though. FIFA apparently endorsed the competition (part of "Visit Malaysia 2007") only to withdraw the endorsement when they discovered the extent of G14's involvement. The tournament organisers - London based Gifted Group - then initiated legal action (backed of course by G-14) and FIFA have now backed down & re-endorsed the competition in exchange for the dropping of lawsuits. Fairly significant news apparently announced at the same time as the "Manchester United's tour match is off" thing.

Oh & how did I find the official website? Through the front page of G-14s own website - where I can't find anything at all about expansion plans...

Re: G14 to expand - based partly on UEFA coefficients.
Author: moro Date: 02-06-2007, 13:13	Bert, I didnt know there are extra-european members in G-thing. All I know is that this is a Union that can harm Uefa. And I hate rich kids driving Porsche.

Author: ikoon
Date: 02-06-2007, 13:24

I think we are wasteing our time with what is in fact a fight to rule european/international football. Some clubs decided that they aren't happy anymore with their player statute and want to be organiser in fact. They want to be the ones behind the criteries, formats, invitation, not only influence them but create them, to establish even what their opponents will be.

I was always wandering how G14 belive that a close league will be more finacial rewarding than the current competitons, because it can't. In fact they don't follow the finacial gains right away, but the power and jurisdiction gains over UEFA.

Do deseve such petty goals such space, disscusion and though? Are we really ready to give to some clubs from some countruies the jurisdiction over the entire international football? I think not. I tell you all this disscusion is a waste of time. We only popularise something that is not worth it and is destined to fail.

Re: G14 to expand - based partly on UEFA coefficie
Author: bert.kassies Date: 02-06-2007, 13:41	badgerboy, thanks for the info. Quite interesting observations. It seems that G14 has been awakened by the new ambition of Platini.

Author: Dragonite
Date: 02-06-2007, 14:18
Edited by: Dragonite
at: 02-06-2007, 16:10

I have some questions about G-14; maybe some of you guys can answer them.

G-14 original members (created in 2000) are:

Inter, Juventus, AC Milan, Liverpool, Manchester United, Marseille, Paris Saint-Germain, Bayern, Borussia Dortmund, Ajax, PSV, FC Porto, Barcelona and Real Madrid.

In 2002, more 4 teams joined them:

Arsenal, Lyon, Bayer Leverkusen and Valencia

I heard they decide things by voting, and each team vote counts for the number of European Cups they have (A Champions Cup/League counts for 2 points, and a Cup Winners Cup/UEFA Cup counts for 1 point).

If this is true, since Lyon has zero European Cups, this means they don�t vote?

Other question, if they are thinking about an expansion, they will invite teams with European Cups, being the likes of Anderlecht, Feyenoord, Sevilla, Tottenham, Chelsea, Benfica, Red Star, Steaua, Galatasaray, Celtic, Rangers, Sporting, CSKA Moscow, Schalke 04, Werder Bremen some of them?

And now the most confusing thing- if they will invite teams from other continents, will South America be happy with a secondary role (3 or 4 teams) or they will ask for having at least as much teams as Europe?

Can someone ANSWER at least some of these questions?

Re: G14 to expand - based partly on UEFA coefficients.
Author: moro Date: 02-06-2007, 14:29	I'm just talking here, but if they intend to expand, it's not for good reasons...

Author: badgerboy
Date: 02-06-2007, 15:17

Dragonite

I can certainly "ask" some of these questions - but then I think you've done a pretty good job already

.

As for answers. Well on voting I found this from Glenn Moore of the Independent writing in March 2006:

"The difference between G14 and Uefa can be summed up by voting rights. In Uefa meetings it is one member, one vote. Thus Germany, with three World Cup wins and 5.2 million registered players, have as many votes as Malta, which has never been to a World Cup and has 5,544 registered players. In G14 clubs which have won the European Cup or Champions' League have two votes while other clubs have only one".

However, I also found a much more detailed voting structure (as of July 2003) as an Appendix to a very lengthy report indeed that gives the following voting structure.

Each founding member gets 3 votes; each new member gets 1 vote. In addition to this - as you suggested - each club gets two votes per CL win & 1 vote per other European trophy. The total number of votes possible for one club is capped at 16 though.

Whether that has changed since 2003 I don't know. Although I do know (or at least reports I've read) say that Jean-Michel Aulas only agreed to take on the role of President because of the expansion plans.

Who will be included in any expansion?

Well that can be only speculation - which is kind of fun.

Based partly on recent results, partly on historic results, partly on coefficients & partly on number of current members already representing the country I would suggest:

Chelsea - obvious financial power + coefficient - embarrassing for G-14 to leave them out.
Sevilla - two UEFA Cups - coefficient - 4th Spanish team.
Roma - 4th strongest Italian team on coefficient - rich history.
Monaco - a maybe. But are the only non-G14 team to reach a CL Final since the last expansion - & the 4th French team. There's no other obvious French candidate.
Werder Bremen - Maybe Germany will stick at three for now - if it goes up to four it's a tough choice. No clear 4th candidate but Bremen edge it over Schalke (& Stuttgart) on coefficient - & on better recent European results. Hamburg might be another alternative as a former European Cup winner.
CSKA Moscow - recent UEFA Cup winner. Decent coefficient. Eastward expansion.
Steaua Bucharest - former European Cup winner. Still a domestic power. Eastwards expansion.
Crvena Zvezda - Same reasons as for Steaua.
Celtic - A massive power in their own back yard. Former European Champions.
Benfica - Another major historical force (& pretty strong currently).
Galatasaray - UEFA Cup winner 2000. A domestic force. Geographical expansion.

Other possibles
Feyenoord - probably an obvious candidate historically but how much will their current weakness count against them?
Sporting - I would say a probable based on a combination of history & recent decent performances (UEFA Cup Final) but will a 3rd Portuguese club be desirable?
Anderlecht - a probable based on history & no other Belgian clubs.
Panathinaikos - richest European history of the Greek teams.
Dinamo Kiev - more Eastwards expansion.
Rosenborg - most likely Scandinavian entry unless IFK Gothenburg make a rapid return to prominence.
Rangers - surely if Celtic are in they must be too?

That's already doubled the current membership on European teams alone & there are still a lot I haven't mentioned.

Worldwide is even harder - and indeed how to select just a couple (or even a handful) of clubs from a whole continent...

Re: G14 to expand - based partly on UEFA coefficients.
Author: ignjat63 Date: 02-06-2007, 16:00	Gwhatever will NEVER leave their domestic leagues and that is most important. If they do not participate UEFA cups so they will organize some kind of their own unofficial competition let them. But I think they are bluffing. Bad thing is UEFA is falling for it. The proof is 3 and 4 teams in CL as a compromise between those 2 interest groups.

Author: Dragonite
Date: 02-06-2007, 16:28

Badgerboy,

The statement was obviously �Can someone ANSWER� and not �Can someone ASK�.

I was thinking about a word and I wrote the other. I already edited the post, though.

As for voting and who will be invited:

Teams like Panathinaikos or Rosenborg, who have zero European Cups� if the voting system is really based on the method I described before (and teams with zero Cups get just one vote by �charity�) then these teams interests will never be considered because a team like Real Madrid counts for many of them (at least 16 with that cap you mentioned).

Like I said before too, expanding to South America is pure fiction. South Americans consider themselves better than the Europeans (or at least as good), if they were to be �invited� to the current G-14, they would want at least 18 teams (or enough number of teams so that theirs votes counted as much as the Europeans all together).

If G-14 wants to increase its number of European members, the South Americans would even ask for more invitations for theirs teams.

I have other thing to ask, but I doubt someone can answer being sure of what he�s saying.

Can a club be expelled from G-14 for bad performances year after year? Paris Saint-Germain and Bayern Leverkusen are two teams that hardly fit among �Europe�s best teams�.

Can PSG be expelled and replaced by Lille/Bordeaux/Monaco and can Bayer Leverkusen be expelled and replaced by Werder Bremen/Schalke 04/Stuttgart?

Re: G14 to expand - based partly on UEFA coefficients.
Author: moro Date: 02-06-2007, 17:33	Werder, stuttgart, Lille, Bordeaux, I'll stop here - they could go into a "g" (not capital letter). Here my words for G -

Author: badgerboy
Date: 04-06-2007, 13:51
Edited by: badgerboy
at: 04-06-2007, 13:52

Dragonite

"Answer & ask". I know. I was just being "pedantic". My smiley should hopefully show I was only in jest though.

"I have other thing to ask, but I doubt someone can answer being sure of what he�s saying.

Can a club be expelled from G-14 for bad performances year after year? Paris Saint-Germain and Bayern Leverkusen are two teams that hardly fit among �Europe�s best teams�.

Can PSG be expelled and replaced by Lille/Bordeaux/Monaco and can Bayer Leverkusen be expelled and replaced by Werder Bremen/Schalke 04/Stuttgart?"

I found the statutes of G-14 on the official site. For the possible reasons for removing a team you'll have to go there but with regard to "performance":

"A Member may be temporarily suspended if that Member:

- In three consecutive seasons, is not classified to play in the League of Champions or the UEFA Cup.

- loses its category in its National League and does not regain the lost category in the next season".

The Member regains its status once it qualifies for Europe or is promoted back to the top division.

More "stuff from the statutes":

1. Confirmation of the number of votes as laid out above - with the exception that the "maximum of 16" only applies at the foundation date:

The number of votes of each Member in the General Assembly shall be determined according to the following criteria:

- 3 votes for each of the Founding Members of the Grouping, only for belonging to such Grouping.
- 1 vote for each of the Non-Founding Members of the Grouping, only for belonging to such Grouping.
- 2 votes for each "Champions League Cup" (former European Cup) won by each Member.
- 1 vote for each "UEFA Cup Winners Cup" and for each "UEFA Cup" won by each Member.

However, as of the date this agreement is made, the maximum number of votes for each Member, established on the basis of the past performances, will not exceed a maximum of 16 votes. This limitation will cease its effects after the foundation of the Grouping, so that the number of votes of each Member can increase in the future in excess of the 16 votes limitation if any of the aforesaid titles is achieved after the date of foundation of this Grouping".

So Real Madrid 18 votes, Lyon 1 vote...

2. In "legal terms" G-14 is apparently a "European Economic Interest Grouping". According to Article 3 of Council Regulation (EEC) No 2137/85 of 25 July 1985 (on which the formation of such groups are based):

"The purpose of a grouping shall be to facilitate or develop the economic activities of its members and to improve or increase the results of those activities; its purpose is not to make profits for itself. Its activity shall be related to the economic activities of its members and must not be more than ancillary to those activities."

Fairly obvious I guess but interesting to see it laid out so clearly that the interests of the group are "economic" rather than "sporting".

3. More relevant to the current "expansion plans" though is Article 4:

"Only the following may be members of a grouping:

(a) companies or firms within the meaning of the second paragraph of Article 58 of the Treaty and other legal bodies governed by public or private law, which have been formed in accordance with the law of a Member State and which have their registered or statutory office and central administration in the Community; where, under the law of a Member State, a company, firm or other legal body is not obliged to have a registered or statutory office, it shall be sufficient for such a company, firm or other legal body to have its central administration in the Community;

(b) natural persons who carry on any industrial, commercial, craft or agricultural activity or who provide professional or other services in the Community".

So unless I'm missing something - or unless G-14 is going to change it's "legal structure" entirely - it can't even bring in the likes of Crvena Zvezda (Red Star Belgrade), Galatasaray - or any other team from outside the EU - let alone the South Americans etc...

Of course they might be talking about a whole new grouping all together...

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 04-06-2007, 14:18

After having had some major successes in the last few years (redesign of the CL, generous redistribution of money), I believe that the G-14 strategy is to become the lobby of the clubs, all clubs vs. UEFA and FIFA.
That's the reason why they are trying to expand and make all big domestic clubs join their organisation, because they understood that they were currently seen as a private club for rich clubs, and not the representant of all big clubs.

I don't believe that the goal of the G-14 is to create their own private league, nor trying again to maximise financial gains (they know that it's difficult to have a significantly better situation).
I even believe that they are quite happy of the current situation as long as UEFA don't change too much the current rules.

Their goal now is to attack big UEFA and FIFA, not on club competitions, but on the international games:
- get a part of the huge amount of money generated by international competitions such as the WC and the Euros.
- make UEFA / FIFA (more than federations) pay insurance for international players
That would explain why they try to mobilize South American or other non-European clubs too.

Author: MartinW
Date: 05-06-2007, 06:15

For those interested, based on the voting system explained by Badgerboy, the number of votes for each club (and country) of G-14 is as follows:

19 AC Milan
18 Real Madrid
16 Liverpool
14 Barcelona
13 Bayern Munich
13 Ajax
11 Juventus
10 Inter Milan
8 Manchester Utd
8 FC Porto
6 Borussia Dortmund
6 PSV Eindhoven
5 Marseille
5 Valencia
4 Paris SG
3 Arsenal
2 B Leverkusen
1 Lyon
Total = 162 votes

40 Italy (3 clubs)
37 Spain (3 clubs)
27 England (3 clubs)
21 Germany (3 clubs)
19 Netherlands (2 clubs)
10 France (3 clubs)
8 Portugal (1 club)
Total = 162 votes (18 clubs)

Re: G14 to expand - based partly on UEFA coefficients.
Author: moro Date: 05-06-2007, 07:56	PSG has never been a great club. But the G is not a great organization, so...

Re: G14 to expand - based partly on UEFA coefficients.
Author: Lyonnais Date: 05-06-2007, 09:53	well, PSG used to be #1 in UEFA rankings (in 1998, not 50 years ago). That's not that bad.

Re: G14 to expand - based partly on UEFA coefficie
Author: matteo Date: 05-06-2007, 10:34 Edited by: matteo at: 05-06-2007, 10:35	50 years ago they didn't even exist , they are founded in 1970

Re: G14 to expand - based partly on UEFA coefficients.
Author: moro Date: 05-06-2007, 11:33	It was an accident. Anyway, G?

Author: jimmyjimmy
Date: 05-06-2007, 17:44
Edited by: jimmyjimmy
at: 05-06-2007, 17:44

The Sunday Herald in Scotland carried an article last weekend on Celtic and Rangers sharing a membership as a way of jumping the bandwagon.

See http://www.sundayherald.com/sport/shfootball/display.var.1443852.0.brussels_tou
ts.php

Titles Brussels Touts (Brussels Sprouts)

Jim

PS, Interesting article linked from the same page as above on Celtic looking into a feeder club on the continent. Makes an interesting point on how big clubs in smaller countries cannot generate the TV money an in the case of UK law have tougher immagration policy than say Holland and Portugal

Author: badgerboy
Date: 05-06-2007, 18:15

Good article & it answers my doubts about the expansion at least:

"We will no longer be the G14 after this expansion and we will have to find a different legal structure. When we were founded it was as an European Economic Interest Group, but that structure is too restrictive for a larger organisation of 40 or more members.

"As an EEIG we have to approve the admission of new members by a unanimous process and we would rather move to a system where we set certain criteria and those who meet those criteria would qualify to be members if they want," said Kurth.

Re: G14 to expand - based partly on UEFA coefficients.
Author: abzpablo Date: 12-06-2007, 00:30	Get rid of the G14 completely. Why do we need this elitist 'groovy gang' anyway?

Re: G14 to expand - based partly on UEFA coefficients.
Author: ignjat63 Date: 12-06-2007, 01:06	The question is do they need us. I think they do and very much so.