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how it's possible?
Author: ron Date: 03-10-2006, 14:34	Hapoel tel aviv got a massage thhat they host pot 3 and 5 inplace 2 and 5. how it is possible?

Author: badgerboy
Date: 03-10-2006, 16:04

Ron

It's hard to say exactly how teams positions were rearranged.

But Group A was the only one where teams kept their "seeded position" when it came to the fixture list.

I guess only simple factor is that if Hapoel had stayed in position D in the draw they would have been at home on Matchday 1, thus clashing with Maccabi Haifa's match. But I think there are also more complex factors that the computer sorts out.

Author: moro
Date: 03-10-2006, 16:17

Guys, let's be serious, if the computer did the job, it could have been done in about 2 and a half seconds. It's a computer! This looks like some communist invention, and we all are suppose to say:" oahahaw, it's all up to the computer now!".
I think there's no transparency, UEFA should announce before the draw all, I mean all factors and do the job right after the draw. Same thing for CL draw. Don't know if is some kind of obscure interest to defend here, but it's not very propre job. Splitting last two journeys is just done to somehow authorise this fake-draw. Come on, why Austria Wien, the only austrian club couldn't go in the group they were drawn? Even with two nordic teams in group, you make them play away last game!
Anyway, I know it's only a tape-error, but it's funny that Hapoel got the "massage" from Uefa. What kind of massage? A computerized or personalised one ?

Author: badgerboy
Date: 03-10-2006, 16:34

I do love these "conspiracy theories".

I can't tell you why the fixtures are rearranged but I can explain (I think) anything you want to know about the draw itself.

For example - Austria Wien couldn't go in groups C, D or E - why? Well because by the time they came out it was already known that Osasuna had to be in Group D (to even up the Spanish teams in each half of the draw & to avoid Sevilla in C), Grasshoppers had to be in Group C (to even up the Swiss teams in each half & because Osasuna had to be in D not C!). Group E was unavailable because two "cold country" teams (Basel & Wisla) were already in it. First available group = F.

Re: how it's possible?
Author: saras21 Date: 03-10-2006, 16:43	Because of the fact that uefa does not allow to play in Haifa so Hapoel Tel Aviv had to change the order of the games, so Haifa and Hapoel will not host in Tel Aviv in the same day. I am sorry for Rapid Bucarest that they should come to play in Bloomfield and now Hapoel has an advantage.

Re: how it's possible?
Author: Todor Date: 03-10-2006, 16:55 Edited by: Todor at: 03-10-2006, 16:56	I think UEFA , gives a little time for the clubs to ask for specific arrangements. For example Levski asked to play away on Matchday 1 as there was a concert already sheduled two days after at the same venue. The other teams from the group agreed and the fixture list was done according to Levski claim.

Re: how it's possible?
Author: moro Date: 03-10-2006, 17:01	TY Badgerboy, pretty clear for Austria. However, I don't see why even-up two teams in every half so necessary. And once again, this computer shoul be able to do the job instantly if you give him the info before the draw. Austria could have been in that group because you let them in peace last game, and computer put Zurich and Wisla to play away las match. No?

Author: badgerboy
Date: 03-10-2006, 17:42

Moro

Why do they even up the teams in each half of the draw?

I think it's so that for Matchdays 4 & 5 (the only ones with matches on two days) there is a more or less equal split of clubs from each country playing on each day. For TV purposes of course.

I also know that UEFA gave a list of countries before the draw from which no more than two teams could be put in the same group. I'm not 100% sure but I think this list was Austria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Poland & Switzerland. I'm not sure if Romania, Serbia or Turkey were on this list too & if not why not? Serbia & Romania would be pretty cold in December wouldn't they?

As it turns out the two Romanian teams & the Serbian team have all been allocated a place in the "fixture draw" that ensures no home match in mid-December so maybe they were included in this proviso.

When it comes to the "fixture rearrangements" though my "knowledge" is more suspect.

I can see that in groups with two "cold country" teams (C, E & F) one gets spot E in the group (no game on Matchday 5) and the other gets spot C or D (away on that matchday). Where there is only one "cold country" team spots C, D or E are available.

I also assume - though I haven't checked fully - that where a country has three or four teams (so two in the same half of the draw) it is arranged so that those in the same half don't have home matches on the same day. I make the same assumption with countries with two teams - one in each half.

Re: how it's possible?
Author: moro Date: 03-10-2006, 18:17	Pretty clear but I still have the question why this smart computer took hours to do this instead of 2 seconds. Probably there's no mafia, I don't see systematic help for one country. But I know what to answer to my kids when tricky questions time will come: "it's all in the computer".

Re: how it's possible?
Author: itayab Date: 03-10-2006, 18:53	In this case with Hapoel, Uefa should just replace the first game with the last (or something like that), so Haifa's home game wouldn't clash with Hapoel's home game on 19 October. I think the solution came up is very bad, sporting way, to play both pot 1 & 2 away.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 03-10-2006, 19:18

My final post on the topic unless I find more "explicit facts".

It was stated on Eurosport that fixture lists would be available to journalists within "half an hour" of the draw being completed. Why "half an hour" and not "two minutes" or "at the press of a button" I have no idea.

But since UEFA's a bureaucracy & very "image conscious" I assume it's got a lot more to do with getting a member of staff to print everything off & presenting the draw in nice "press release folders" than any "dirty tricks".

Itayab - personally I think getting the toughest teams away & leaving two home games that you should win if you have any pretensions on progress is quite a good deal.

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 03-10-2006, 21:13

It has always taken a lot of time for the computer draw, see the archived forum article on last year's UEFA Cup Group Stage draw results, where it is said: "A computer draw without a public algorithm and constraints is something like three UEFA administrators in a closed room shuffling cards with names into groups. And telling afterwards that the draw was completely objective."

I can think of only one reason why the computer draw is not live: UEFA has not a clear set of constraints and wants to manipulate the outcome by hand. If you can do the manual draw live and online, it should be easy to do the computer draw in public. So they don't trust the outcome of the computer. Or in other words they don't have a clear set of constraints.

Reasons like to print everything & presenting the draw in nice "press release folders" could also be applied to the manual draw. I don't believe in really "dirty tricks", but I find it hard to believe that the computer draw is a pure mathematical process.

Well, at least that's my opinion.

Re: how it's possible?
Author: panda Date: 03-10-2006, 21:37	Suppose they just don't trust the computer not to malfunction, causing massive embarrassment in a live draw?

Re: how it's possible?
Author: bert.kassies Date: 03-10-2006, 21:50	Could be ... but with the resources available to UEFA it should be a piece of cake to get some real professional help (e.g. you could perform intensive testing).

Author: Ricardo
Date: 03-10-2006, 21:59

Actualy I think the computer changes in groups that seem to be finshed. I mean. It stars with all groups 1-5, A-E.
Then it starts going through the groups and when it finds a problem will try to rsolve it. But maybe it will have to update an earlier group again for a good solution.
When this would be done live, teams will start complaining that at some time they had a great schedule and suddenly it was thrown over again.
If I only knew their first setting and their approach. I mean: Do they start with all groups 1-5, or is that already with some variation. And then will they go group by group, or wil they first find all A's and then all B's, etc..

Author: moro
Date: 03-10-2006, 22:08

There's only 20 possibilities in a group, so I'll change my opinion, the computer should do it in 0.001 sec, not 2 sec.
As long as the schedule is done backstage, we are intitled to be suspicious.
Sooner or later they will have to change the group stage "style", because only plaing home-away against every team seems to be correct. 12 groups of 4 teams to start in same time with second CLGS would be nice.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 03-10-2006, 22:18

Rules for the draw:
* countries evely spread over A-D/E-H
* not more than 2 wintercountries in 1 group. Wintercountries are:Romania, Czech, Swiss, Denmark, Poland, Austria

Rules for the computer draw:
* countries evenly spread over home/away matches(if 2 in a A-D/E-H part then these are evenly spread home/away). Possible pairings are AC, AD, BD, BE, CE.
* wintercountries can only have C,D,E (with home/away pairing=CE: Romania, Swiss- that's why max. 2 wintercountries per group. These 2 have to have CE!-check group3&7)
* Basic spread= ABCDE

Author: Ricardo
Date: 13-10-2006, 08:45

Hi,
I have written a little computerprogram that does a kind of computer draw. Actually it just tries every possibility and checks if it follows the rules. So it will check 5 ^ 80 possibilities. Well that is, if it would not run into a correct one.
After 17 minutes it came up with the following:

 Group 1: A-B-C-D-E
 Group 2: A-B-C-E-D
 Group 3: A-C-D-E-B
 Group 4: B-C-A-D-E
 Group 5: D-C-E-A-B
 Group 6: A-C-B-D-E
 Group 7: A-D-C-B-E
 Group 8: C-E-B-A-D

I had entered the following rules:
* only 1 'A', 'B', 'C', 'D', 'E' in each group

* wintercoutries must have CDE. Wintercountries are: Serbia, Romania, Czech, Switzerland, Austria, Denmark, Poland
* Paired-teams together have CA, AD, DB, BE or EC.
The following teams are paired:
1-Fra, 4-Fra
1-Ita, 4-Ita
1-Isr, 7-Isr

2-Ger, 8-Ger
2-Bel, 6-Bel
2-Tur, 8-Tur
2-Rom, 7-Rom (so must have CE!)

3-Esp, 4-Esp
3-Ned, 4-Ned
3-Sui, 5-Sui (so must have CE!)

4-Fra, 1-Fra
4-Ita, 1-Ita
4-Esp, 3-Esp
4-Ned, 3-Ned

5-Ned, 6-Ned
5-Sui, 3-Sui(so must have CE!)
5-Eng, 8-Eng
5-Fra, 7-Fra

6-Ned, 5-Ned
6-Cze, 7-Cze(so must have CE!)
6-Esp, 8-Esp
6-Bel, 2-Bel

7-Fra, 5-Fra
7-Rom, 2-Rom(so must have CE!)
7-Isr, 1-Isr
7-Cze, 6-Cze(so must have CE!)

8-Eng, 5-Eng
8-Esp, 6-Esp
8-Tur, 2-Tur
8-Ger, 2-Ger

At the beginning the first 2 groups stayed ABCDE and ABCDE for a long time group 3 and 4 seemed to form the solution that Uefa had given ADECB and ACBDE, that is until group 7 came involved and finally also group2 had to be reordered.
If I let the program run further it will come up with more ideas, as also the Uefa-solution will follow.

Anybody sees any rule I have forgotten? Or any logical way to run first into the Uefa-solution?

Re: how it's possible?
Author: bert.kassies Date: 13-10-2006, 14:31	Ricardo, good initiative. I see only two logical solutions: 1) UEFA does not use a consistent set of rules that completely determines the solution. Thus giving way to luck or manipulation. 2) UEFA does not publish all the rules. Which means we have to find more rules. In that case it would be interesting to know how many solutions are possible with your set of rules.

Re: how it's possible?
Author: Ricardo Date: 13-10-2006, 15:32	Given that in my solution the first 8 teams still have their original place(ABCDE,ABC) I am afraid that therea re thousands of possibilities. Indeed we must be missing rules or the order of handling is different(maybe begin with all first teams, then all second teams etc. or maybe begin with all A's and then all B's ....

Re: how it's possible?
Author: moro Date: 14-10-2006, 12:26	If there's rules involved, why don't UEFA present all this before. If there's no rules, why there's no rules? Anyway, as long as there's no home-away matches, there's no "fair game". UEFA must find another solution for GS.