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Author: Aliceag
Date: 01-04-2006, 04:54

What is the maximum coeff a team can achieve actualy? I presume this would be a task that would take 5 years in crescendo since the country ranking counts 33%...

And what is the team most likely to achive that maximum? Is it Fc Vaduz, coz it isn't dependent on other country teams to achieve it? Or it must be a country with at least 2 teams so it can win always the CL and UC 5 years in a row, winning ALL games in course?

Re: Maximum coeff
Author: crash1o6 Date: 01-04-2006, 09:04	Imposible to get max... Even Barca can't get the maxium... in fotball you can be the best and lose to the rest :P...

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 01-04-2006, 13:16

At least the Vaduz case is the most simple to calculate. Because Liechtenstein (and Andorra or San Marino) are different from other countries. No matter the rank on the country ranking list, there is always only one team in the 1st qualifying round of the UEFA Cup.

Winning all matches gives 37 points per year (including 4 points in the qualifying rounds). Culminating in a country ranking of 5*(37/1) = 185.000 after 5 years, a yearly team coefficient of 33 + 0.33 * 37 = 45.2100, and a team ranking of 226.050

Re: Maximum coeff
Author: eldaec Date: 01-04-2006, 18:48 Edited by: eldaec at: 01-04-2006, 18:49	EDIT : nm, read the post above wrong.

Re: Maximum coeff
Author: Nick Date: 02-04-2006, 11:50	Are all the bonus points included ?

Author: Todor
Date: 03-04-2006, 11:04
Edited by: Todor
at: 03-04-2006, 12:25

For the countries with 3 representatives (one starting from CL QR1 and 2 from UC QR1).
If the team in CL wins all the matches it will get 39 points for the country and 33 for the team rankings
12/2=6 + 3 bonus = 9 in the Qr's
6*2 +1 bonus = 13 in the group phase
3*(2*2 + 1 bonus) = 15 in the 1/8 , 1/4 and 1/2 finals
2 in the final

If both teams in the UC win all the matches they will get 72 pts for the country and 33 and 31 for the team rankings.
2*(8/2)=8 in the QR's
2*4=8 in the QR1
2*4*2=16 in the group phase
2*2*2=8 in last 32 round
2*3*(2*2 + 1 bonus) = 30 in the 1/8 , 1/4 and 1/2 finals
2 in the final for the winner

So the country coefficient will be 111/3 =37
The winners in UC and CL will get 33+0.333*37=33+12.321 = 45.321
and the runner-up in UC 43.321.
Cumulated for 5 years , the country coefficient will be 37*5 = 185 , and the team one will be 5*45.321=226.605

And the G-14 teams , starting late in the tournaments can only dream of such a coefficient (what an injustice)

For the countries with 4 representatives (one starting from CL QR2 and 3 from UC QR2).
If the team in CL wins all the matches it will get 37 points for the country and 33 for the team rankings
8/2=4 + 3 bonus = 7 in the Qr's
6*2 +1 bonus = 13 in the group phase
3*(2*2 + 1 bonus) = 15 in the 1/8 , 1/4 and 1/2 finals
2 in the final

If both teams in the UC win all the matches they will get 96 pts for the country and 33 and 31 and 27 for the team rankings.
3*(4/2)=6 in the QR's
3*4=12 in the QR1
3*4*2=24 in the group phase
3*2*2=12 in last 32 round
3*2*(2*2 + 1 bonus) = 30 in the 1/8 , 1/4
2*(2*2+1 bonus) = 10 in the semis
2 in the final for the winner

So the country coefficient will be 133/4 =33.25
The winners in UC and CL will get 33+0.333*33.25=33+11.072 = 44.072
and the runner-up in UC 42.072 and the losing semifinalist 38.072.
Cumulated for 5 years , the country coefficient will be 33.25*5 = 166.25 , and the team one will be 5*44.072=220.36

Re: Maximum coeff
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 03-04-2006, 12:26	@Todor You can't add just 5 years with this maximum coefficient, because after the first year the country is so high on the rankings that they will have more teams in the 3rd-5th year.

Author: Todor
Date: 03-04-2006, 12:37
Edited by: Todor
at: 03-04-2006, 13:06

You're right Forza. So Vaduz and Lichtenstein record will remain unbeaten

. Let's assume that in third season the country will be ranked 7th - 4 teams 1 CL GP , 1 CL QR3 and 2 UC R1

If the teams in CL wins all the matches they will get 66 points for the country and 33 and 31 for the team rankings
4/2=2 + 2*3 bonus = 8 in the Qr's
2*(6*2 +1 bonus) = 26 in the group phase
2*3*(2*2 + 1 bonus) = 30 in the 1/8 , 1/4 and 1/2 finals
2 in the final

If both teams in the UC win all the matches they will get 64 pts for the country and 33 and 31 for the team rankings.
2*4=8 in the QR1
2*4*2=16 in the group phase
2*2*2=8 in last 32 round
2*3*(2*2 + 1 bonus) = 30 in the 1/8 , 1/4 and 1/2 finals
2 in the final for the winner

So the country coefficient will be 130/4 =32.5
The winners in UC and CL will get 33+0.333*32.5=33+10.822 = 43.822
and the runner-ups 41.822.

For the last two seasons the country will have 7 teams

If the teams in CL wins all the matches they will get 120 points for the country and 33,31,27,27 for the team rankings
2*4/2=4 + 4*3 bonus = 16 in the Qr's
4*(6*2 +1 bonus) = 52 in the group phase
4*2*(2*2 + 1 bonus) = 40 in the 1/8 , 1/4
2*(2*2+1 bonus) = 10 in the semis
2 in the final

If both teams in the UC win all the matches they will get 90 pts for the country and 33 and 31 for the team rankings.
3*4=12 in the QR1
3*4*2=24 in the group phase
3*2*2=12 in last 32 round
3*2*(2*2 + 1 bonus) = 30 in the 1/8 , 1/4
2*(2*2+1 bonus) = 10 in the semis
2 in the final for the winner

So the country coefficient will be 210/7 =30
The winners in UC and CL will get 33+0.333*30=33+9.999 = 42.999,the runner-ups 40.999 and the losing semifinalists 36.999.

The cumulation for the country ranking will be 2 * 37 + 32.5 + 2*30 = 166.5
The cumulation for the team ranking will be 2*45.321 + 43.822 + 2*42.999 = 220.462

Re: Maximum coeff
Author: FrancoisD Date: 03-04-2006, 14:34	As the title holder does not normally participate to qualification rounds, there are some adjustements to do to computations. eg Vaduz repeated cup winner means : 1st year : 33 (+4) -> country 37, club 45.210 next year : 33 (0) -> country 33, club 43.890 repeated cup loser (draw, then penalty loss) gives every year : 32 (+4) -> country 36, club 44.880

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 03-04-2006, 16:50

Yes, FrancoisD, you're right. But one remark: the repeated cup loser case leads to a country ranking of 43.880. So it's not really an option.

In the Vaduz case this leads to a maximum team coefficient of 45.210 + 4 * 43.890 = 220.770

Todor calculated some scenario's for "normal" countries. I think it needs some modifications. I assume the following:
1) the team with the highest possible team ranking is the team that wins the Champions League in 5 consecutive years (each year 33 individual ranking points),
2) starting as a low ranked country with 1 CL and 2 UC teams that have to take part in all qualification rounds,
3) in the 2nd year (and consecutive years) the CL and UC champions don't play any qualification rounds,
4) in the 3rd year the high country ranking of the 1st year (37.000 added to some initial ranking) will lead to ranking position between 4 and 6, which imnplies 3 CL (1xQR3) and 3 UC teams,
5) in the 4th and 5th year the very high country ranking of the first years implies a top-3 position.

Country contribution to the team ranking:

1) 0.33 * (39+37+35) / 3             = 12.21
2) 0.33 * (33+33+35) / 3             = 11.11
3) 0.33 * (33+31+28+33+31+26) / 6    = 10.01
4) 0.33 * (33+31+28+28+33+31+26) / 7 =  9.90
5) 0.33 * (33+31+28+28+33+31+26) / 7 =  9.90
-------------------------------------------
total country contribution           = 53.13

Which implies a total maximum team coefficient (for a "normal" country) of 5 * 33 + 53.13 = 218.130

Boy, do I like these theoretical cases

Author: Todor
Date: 04-04-2006, 08:46
Edited by: Todor
at: 04-04-2006, 08:50

Bert ,

I'll deduct the QR points for the winners in the second year (6+4)/3 = 3.333 for the country coefficient , and 0.333*3.333 = 1.11 for the team coefficients , but I'll keep on assuming that the country will be 7th ranked with 37.000 pts after the first year (this year the Netherlands are 7th with 41+ pts).

So the new max's will be:
for the country ranking will be 37 + 33.667 + 32.5 + 2*30 = 163.167
for the team ranking will be 45.321 + 44.221 + 43.822 + 2*42.999 = 219.352

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 04-04-2006, 11:19

Todor, just some details:

The factor for country contribution in the team coefficients is 0.33, not 0.333 nor 1/3.

At first I thought that rank 6 in the third year would lead to a higher ranking. But taking a closer look, I think there is no difference between rank 6 or rank 7:
rank 7: 0.33 * (33+33+33+31+26+26) / 6 = 10.01 (1xCL-R1, 1xCLQR3, 4xUC-R1),
rank 6: 0.33 * (33+31+28+33+31+26) / 6 = 10.01 (2xCL-R1, 1xCLQR3, 3xUC-R1).

But in both cases my max. coefficient is 43.010, which is lower then the coefficient you found. Can you explain how you calculate the country coefficient in the 3rd year?

And, of coarse, to achive the maximum ranking this country should do all to avoid an Intertoto or Fair Play spot

Author: FrancoisD
Date: 04-04-2006, 11:58

Sorry for the small mistake, it was 43,880 of course.
I do like these theoretical cases. Now the classic question on this forum : isn't it better to be 3rd in CL group stage to ensure the best coefficient ? Seems like the answer is no ! There may be no way to stay 3rd with more than 8 coeff points in group stage (max is 12 for 1st), and there's only 3 more points to get in UC. But would it happen that a country had 5 teams in CL, and 3 or less in UC, it would be an option...

Author: Aliceag
Date: 04-04-2006, 15:07

Boy I'm really enjoying this issue! When the question came up to my mind I really didn't have the patiente to do all maths coz I'm having too much work in hands, but glad, some guys are having fun with it and answering my curiosities :D It's kinda strange to think that UEFA laws allow Vaduz to have a coeff that Bar�a or Chelsea can never achieve (in theory). Isn't this in the "ethical field" an injustice? shouldn't all countries be able to have the same coeff? I guess UEFA didn't thought of this question!! Soon I guess I'll come up with another one

Author: STK
Date: 04-04-2006, 17:14
Edited by: STK
at: 04-04-2006, 17:19

Yes, it's amaizing how this kind of topics uncovers the smallest and intersting details. Such an injustice, Barca and Real, these two giants of european football, to be not be able to have maximum coefficient, like FC Vaduz is. I always suspected that UEFA has ingenous plans to help this little countries, but to affect top teams in such way it's outrageous. And what if Abramovici decided to invest in FC Vaduz? To see results like FC Vaduz - Real Madrid 7-0, it's something that some people only dream about.

And to bring my own contribution to this topic, another piece of entertainment: A team who plays qualification rounds, teoretical can achive a higher coefficient than a team who play dirrect in group stages. Isn't this injustice or what?

Re: Maximum coeff
Author: Giuseppe Date: 04-04-2006, 17:35	Just imagine the number of points Romanian teams have achieved in qualifying rounds this year: Steaua 2 points, Rapid 3,5 points, Dinamo 1 point. A total of 6.5, which translates into an extra 2,166 for the country coefficient. These are points a country like Spain or Italy will never have acces to. Talk about injustice

Re: Maximum coeff
Author: STK Date: 04-04-2006, 17:50 Edited by: STK at: 04-04-2006, 17:52	Yes. I think that we should put Barca, Real and Co. to play from the first qualification round to give 'em the same chances.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 05-04-2006, 11:05

Speaking of injustices...

Does it seem right that (ignoring the qualification rounds) winning every single match in the UEFA Cup gets you as many points (as an individual team) as winning every single match in the Champions League. And - even worse - if you're "not good enough" to pass the group stages and finish 3rd in the group you get a chance to make MORE points (21) by achieving a 100% record against the might of say: Espanyol, Palermo, Levski Sofia, Sevilla and Steaua Bucharest than if you were successful in the group stage and "only" managed a 100% record against say: Liverpool, Barcelona, Milan and Arsenal...

Sorry that's fairly off topic but I can never resist a bit of controversy

Back on topic - ish...

For the three highest ranked countries I calculate the highest possible country coefficient to be 30.000 per year (33+31+28+28+33+31+26)= 210/7. This would become a straightforward country ranking of 150.000 after five years. This assumes the CL winner always finishes in the top two in the league and the UEFA cup winner always qualifies for Europe through domestic competition. The best possible team coefficient would - I think - be 33 + (30 x 33%) = 42.900 per year - 214.500 after five years.

If you include an Intertoto Cup qualifier - starting in QR2 of UEFA Cup - the total would become 238/8 = 29.750 per year or 148.750 after five years. In that instance the best team coefficient becomes 42.817 - 214.085 after five years. Eight teams could make the same coefficient as seven but only if there were no intertoto qualifier and the eighth team started in QR1 via the Fair Play rankings.

Author: STK
Date: 05-04-2006, 12:47
Edited by: STK
at: 05-04-2006, 12:56

Like i said on another topic, the only situation (fairly acceptable) in which UCL teams should recive a higher number of points than the UC teams:

- a propritional distribution of money in both competitions: if UCL teams recive twice more points, then they should recive only twice more money;
- a similar league format: the same numer of participants, a similar group stage with the same number of teams and the same number of matches;
- no teams comming from UCL in UC, and no teams comming from UC in UCL;
- european Supercup should be included in the rating system, and the winner should recive the rightfull title of "The best team in Europe" for a season.

Considering the facts (not assumptions), that we have so far UC is more hard to win than UCL:

1) in UC group stages only 3/5 teams go further in competitions, meanwhile in UCL 3/4 teams go further in competitions;
2) in UC group stages there are only 4 matches in which a team can gather points, in UCL there are 6 matches in which a team can gather points;
3) in UCL group stages, two teams play 2 matches one against other, which assuring 2 chances to a team to show that is better then the other team; meanwhile in UC group stages only one game is played between 2 teams, and on a random field (the best example is all-mighty Steaua who played home with the weaker teams: Lens and Halmstad, and away with stronger opponents: Sampdoria and Herta). In UCL there are no such random factors.
4) UCL teams don't have to support 8 teams from another compentition, like UC team have;
5) an extra eliminatory round for UC teams (1/16s);

Based on this facts, we can only assume that UC is a harder to win competition than UCL; the only fact that we have in this dirrection it's Supercup (an official game, and a prestigious throphy). So, following the logic, which bring us here, and not only that, we can take like a fact, that winner team represents the better competition for this season.

This is the only fact that can put a light on UCL vs. UC dispute, and not the prior judgement based on assumptions and personal sympaties. Not even, the fact, that UCL is considerating the first valoric competition in Europe, and UC just second. This distinction is made for organizatoric details, and operates only in the beginig of competitional season, like a prize for the previous domestic season, which is not nececarely the current team (value + form + rank) situation. To understand better last distiction, you make take X team from Italy, which finished 5 last season in domestic championship and like an effect played in UEFA, but in current season it have the 1st place.

Considering the facts i presented, and if you accept another fact which is about the fundamental existentce of sport/football: the team who win a final/game is better than the team who loses, you will come to the logical conclusion that the opinon which you presented in the off-topic part of your message don't describe an injustice.

It's the essence of this terms justice/injustice, to be used only in a situation that can be prooved by facts. And only assuming that AC Milan, FC Barcelona is better than all-mighty Steaua, Palermo is not a fact, and only assuming that a competition in which play AC Milan, FC Barecelona is better than a competition in which play all-mighty Steaua, Palermo is not a fact eihter. The only way in which you can verify your opinion like proving true is based on the teams which you specified last encouters, or the competition winner last encouters. You also can check the statistic of Supercup winners, for a more competent proof of the strength of the 2 competition, in different period of times.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 05-04-2006, 13:30

European Super Cup winner the best team in Europe!

I really hope most of your last post was "tongue in cheek". You really should include the odd wink to confirm it though or people might think you are serious - and insane

If you want to believe that winning the UEFA Cup and - possibly - winning a one off match against a team who would probably rather not be there makes you the best around then I congratulate you on your optimism. Just think Middlesbrough could be the best team in Europe even if they can't finish in the top half of the Premier League this year and only finished 7th last year.

I'd have nothing against stopping teams crossing from the CL to UEFA Cup, although the think the rule should apply right from the start of the tournament - ensuring 3rd rate losers from the Champions League qualifying rounds don't get a second chance at picking up points in another competition

Actually there is one point that ought to be worthy of serious consideration regarding coefficient calculations but I think I'll start another topic for that...

Re: Maximum coeff
Author: STK Date: 05-04-2006, 14:25	If you can accept that in a official match the best team win, then i think your place is not on these forums... go and play some FIFA 2006 with cheats, to match a universe of your own expectations. Any further discussion is pointless.

Author: Todor
Date: 06-04-2006, 13:07
Edited by: Todor
at: 06-04-2006, 13:08

Just a small amendment to Bert's calculation. I think there is a better case. If the winner of the UC in the first season wins the domestic league , then it will start from QR1 in CL along the winner which will start in the group phase + 2 teams starting in UC R1.
Then the country contribution for the second year will be
0.33*(37+33+37+35)/4 = 11.72 ,

which implies to a total 5 year cumulation of 218.74