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Author: bert.kassies
Date: 28-09-2005, 15:04

Last year we had a good discussion on the computer draw that is used by UEFA after the manual draw of the 40 teams into 8 groups. See the forum topic UEFA's computer. It would be nice if we could do (part of the discussion) this year BEFORE the draw. And yes, I know it's better to wait until the 40 teams are known.

Background: The match schedule is given by the UEFA Cup regulations. The computer only determines which team will be team A, B, C, D, or E in each group.

1st match day: D v B       C not playing
               E v A

2nd match day: B v E       A not playing
               C v D

3rd match day: A v B       D not playing
               E v C

4th match day: C v A       B not playing
               D v E

5th match day: A v D       E not playing
               B v C

Before the draw the teams are divided into five pots 1-5 based on the team rankings. If you add the original pot-numbers to the teams in the group, and order the teams A-E, Ricardo observed two dominant sequences: 12345 and 13524. Any team always plays at home against the next lower ranked team, and (as a consequence) plays away against the next higher ranked team.

Last year only one group had a slightly different sequence because of conflicting constraints. We observed 2 types of constraints:

1) The so-called "winter"-restriction. Teams from cold area's cannot play at the last match day in December. It's not completely clear which countries have this restriction. Last year it could have been Dnipro (UKR), Tbilisi (GEO), Amica (POL), and Zenit (RUS). Which teams will have the "winter"-restriction this year?

2) Last year all English teams were team B because of domestic matches at the 4th match day. Apparently a national FA can ask UEFA for such an exception. Is any of you aware of such exceptions this year?

Author: Ricardo
Date: 28-09-2005, 16:06

There was one other restriction that possible was there: coupling of two teams over ACE/BD

I have no idea yet what we can say over this distribution. It was mainly about the distribution within the groups. So we need 2 things first:
1. who will be in Round 2
2. who will be in which groups.

Though I am looking forward in explaining again why the Uefa computer decided these groups (like its freezing cold in Tblisi in winter!)

Author: Nick
Date: 28-09-2005, 18:00

Georgia is not a cold country! Winter couldn't have been an issue there. December would be impossible to play in Scandinavia, Russia and the Ukraine. Maybe also Poland. All other countries should be OK. I wonder however how UEFA will manage teams from "cold" countries and matches in the middle of february? In Bulgaria it's OK in december with temperatures around the freezing point but february is totally unpredictible. It could be 15 degrees or minus 15. Has happened both in recent years!

Author: Gabi
Date: 28-09-2005, 20:31

i agree with nick. in romania there are climat conditions very similar to the ones described by nick in bulgaria. i guess you all remember the postponing of last year's last 16 uefa cup first leg between steaua and villarreal because of snow that was in romania in february.

uefa has a strange computer and i mainly wanted to know how did uefa made the groups for uefa cup round 1, but i guess now i should be interested in the group arrangements too because Dinamo Bucuresti and Steaua Bucuresti will be in the groups.

Author: MalcolmW
Date: 29-09-2005, 08:14

There is the same clash as last season between the 4th round of the English League Cup ('Carling Cup') and the 4th UEFA Cup Group round. It is likely, therefore, that the same request as last year will have been made on behalf of English clubs. If it is (or already has been) agreed then any of Mddlesbrough, Bolton Wanderers and Everton may be designated as Team B in their groups if they get through the first round.
Unless there are other requests based on comparable clashes of fixture plans then I see no reason why such a request would be refused.
I don't like groups of 5 playing each opponent either home or away and would much prefer groups of 4 with home and away matches, but at least it adds another dimension to understanding UEFA.

Re: UEFA Cup group stage constraints
Author: spoonman Date: 29-09-2005, 11:48	There's something I don't understand: Why is the English FA allowed to have domestic fixtures on a UEFA Cup matchday? I always thought that this was impossible, as a matter of principle. And even if they're allowed to do that: Why can't Bolton's and Middlesbrough's League Cup matches be postponed?

Re: UEFA Cup group stage constraints
Author: Nick Date: 29-09-2005, 12:04	Hard task with simple solution! Bolton and Middlesbrough are eliminated today and everything is fine so they can play the League Cup without any probs

Re: UEFA Cup group stage constraints
Author: spoonman Date: 29-09-2005, 12:19	Well, that's what I call pragmatism!

Author: mjwillan
Date: 29-09-2005, 13:01

Maybe its another example of the FAs cleverness - first they got 5 teams into the Champions League by ignoring the intent of UEFAs rule about the holder qualifying - unfortunately Everton spoiled the plan!

By having the League Cup on matchday 4 this means they request that English teams be "team B" which means that they are at home on matchday 5 and probably increases their chances of qualifying for the later stages - very ingenious!

Author: Ricardo
Date: 29-09-2005, 13:03

I agree with spoonman. There is maybe an analogy with the playing on Thursday and the Germans(See other topic). It was always allowed to play on another day(Tuesday/Wednesday). Not anymore this year. I hope the same applies to this issue. Englands team does not automatic have plae B assigned. If the Fa decides they want to play other matches on that day, fine, but if the teams have to play UefaCup too, the local matche swill have to be postponed.
If I remember correctly all the English that played UefaCup last year were out of the LeagueCup at the time of the 4th matchday, so it was all for nothing!
I hope for no restrictions, and also indeed February is at least as tricky with the weather as December, so why bother. That Georgia is (very) warm in December was said last year too, Nick, that's why I mentioned it- it was a joke, I forgot the smiley.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 29-09-2005, 14:03

To get back to the original topic:
All speculation ofcourse, cause nothing is on paper, but:
There are 2 kind of groups the 12345 groups and the 13524 groups.
A 12345 group is a group where you can match ABCDE on 12345 or 23451 or 34512, etc.. A 13524 group is agroup where ABCDE can be matche to 13524 or 35241 or....
Last year there were 4 12345-groups and 3 135234 group, and 1 special, the one with Newcastle and Tblisi.

In the 12345 group 1 plays home agasint nr's 2 and 4, 2 plays home against 3 and 5, 3 against 4 and 1, 4 against 5 and 2 and 5 against 1 and 3.
In the 13524 groups 1 plays home against 2 and 3, 2 against 3 and 4, 3 against 4 and 5, 4 against 5 and 1, 5 against 1 and 2.

If you look at the results in the differnet groups. you get this:
12345-groups:
group A,B,E,H
1st 1,3,3,2
2nd 2,4,2,3
3rd 3,1,4,4
4th 5,2,1,5
5th 4,5,5,1

13524-groups:
group C,F,G
1st 4,5,1
2nd 2,2,2
3rd 5,3,4
4th 1,1,3
5th 3,4,5

The 13524 group show much more variation. Only there (2) group5-teams qualified.
Ofcourse these are very few results to make conclusions, but I could say that for the top teams it's easier to be in a 12345 group and for lower teams the other way around.

Author: UncleSam
Date: 29-09-2005, 17:12

Not exactly related to how to generate the fixture list of the Group Stage but last season there was a restriction on the draw. If a country is represented by more than one team, two teams will be paired, similar to the Champions League draw, to avoid that the two teams from the same country play on the same day on Matchday 4 and 5.

Interesting topic:
"Last year all English teams were team B because of domestic matches at the 4th match day."
This could easily give security problems. If Everton and Liverpool go to the Group Phase in the uEFA Cup one year, it means they have to play at home on the same day. The Merseyside Police never allows that to happen concerning domestic games.

Re: UEFA Cup group stage constraints
Author: Edgar Date: 30-09-2005, 08:05	Well, Everton didn't reach the group stage - so the Merseyside police can sleep at peace

Re: UEFA Cup group stage constraints
Author: Gauss Date: 30-09-2005, 14:29	This year climatic constraints could apply to: Troms� CSKA and Lok Moskva Zenit maybe the Ukrainian teams Dnipro an Shakhtar maybe Stavanger and/or Halmstad, but I think both places should be ok in December.

Author: MalcolmW
Date: 30-09-2005, 18:27

@spoonman
Why is the (English) FA allowed to have domestic fixtures on a UEFA Cup matchday? A matchday on which only 4 out of 5 teams in any group can ever be playing is hardly an adequate reason to demand that domestic fixtures are not scheduled.
Have any associations sought special arrangements? If so, UEFA should decide on their merits whether they can be accommodated or not.

It is correct that neither Newcastle United nor Middlesbrough were still in the competition at the relevant stage last season (partly because they met Chelsea and Liverpool in the previous round).

Re: UEFA Cup group stage constraints
Author: SHEV Date: 01-10-2005, 15:39	What about climatic constraints if for example Lokomotiv, Shakhtar and Tromso will be drawn in same group?

Re: UEFA Cup group stage constraints
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 01-10-2005, 17:39	@SHEV I imagine that one team will be free on the 5th matchday (E in the schedule) and the other 2 play an away match then (C and D in the schedule). The does mean that these 2 teams have to play at home on the 4th matchday (30 November/1 December). But it's only one week after the 3rd matchday, so I think this won't be a very big problem.

Re: UEFA Cup group stage constraints
Author: Nick Date: 01-10-2005, 21:05	There will also be a city clash in Sofia because both CSKA and Levski are in Pot 4 and will have to play in the same day at home!

Re: UEFA Cup group stage constraints
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 01-10-2005, 22:33	@Nick The schedule will only be determined on Tuesday. So one of the constraints the computerdraw will use, will probably be that teams from the same city can't play at home on the same day. For the 3 Bukarest teams this will be impossible off course, but the computer will not allow all 3 playing at home on the same day I think.

Re: UEFA Cup group stage constraints
Author: nitsansh Date: 02-10-2005, 01:59	It is possible to avoid that 2 teams from Bucharest play at home on the same day. On matchdays 1,2 and 3 each team will have one home match, so on each round one team play at home and the other 2 play away or idle. On matchdays 4 and 5 2 teams can play at home because matches are split between Wednesday and Thursday. There should be only one occasion like that.

Re: UEFA Cup group stage constraints
Author: nitsansh Date: 02-10-2005, 02:08	The teams from Bucharest can be in one of 2 combinations: A,C,D or A,B,D

Author: larare
Date: 03-10-2005, 11:32

I will not repeat the discoverys already maid. I will just add a table which I've used trying to find other patterns than the ones discovered by Ricardo

Group/Team	A	B	C	D	E
A		SUI	SCO	HUN	NED	GER
B		BEL	ITA	TUR	ESP	ROM
C		BEL	NED	AUT	ESP	UKR
D		FRA	GEO*	POR	GRE	ENG*
E		ESP	ENG	YUG	GRE	ITA
F		SCO	AUT	NED	FRA	POL
G		NED	GER	CRO	BEL	POR
H		GRE	FRA	ESP	GER	RUS

The table shows the result of the draw from last season, with the probable switch in group D indicated by an *. Groups E-H in italics play on other dates matchday 4 and 5, than grups A-D. It is obvious that there has been a split so that countries with more than one team have teams playing on separate dates. This is a "pre-computer constraint".
Looking for constraints in the computor draw, it's easy to see that teams from the same country are allowed to play identical schedules, examples in bold. A draw with climatic and "date" constraints could work like this: Every group is reshuffeld ending up in a 12345 or 13524 pattern. If there is a climatic contraint you move the teams along the drawn pattern until the "right" team becomes team "E". When two constraints apply (group D last year) this may result in a switch.
Example: In group B and C the Belgian temas (Standard Liege and Club Bruges) are drawn to play as team A and the Spanish teams (Atletic Bilbao and Real Zaragoza) are drawn to play as team D . If we assume that there was a climatic constraint attatched to Dnipro (UKR in group C), it would have been easy to move the teams in group B one position to avoid the clashes. If we assume that a climatic constraint applied to Steua (ROM in group B) as well, group C could have been switched to a 51234 pattern, leaving Dnipro as team E, but moving Clube Bruges to become team B and Real Zaragoza to become team C. None of this happend. My conclusion is therefore that there are no constraints preventing teams from the same country to play the same day.
More general obeservation is that from 10 possible results of a draw where the patterns 12345 and 13542 are the wanted output, 7 different combinations were used to form the 8 groups last year.
Now I'll wait for tomorrows draw.

Re: UEFA Cup group stage constraints
Author: Ricardo Date: 03-10-2005, 12:29	I agree with larare - there is no restriction on countries- let alone cities- to avoid them being the same characte(A-E). I think that Steaua and Dinamo are split, 1 team will be ACE, the other one BD

Re: UEFA Cup group stage constraints
Author: MalcolmW Date: 03-10-2005, 13:21	The Bolton Wanderers website now has an article about the group stage of the UEFA. It says Bolton will sit out match day 4 (i.e. they will be placed as team B). This suggests that, as I expected, the (English) FA have made a similar request to last season, and that this has been accepted.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 04-10-2005, 10:30

Restrictions:
Bolton & Middlesborough: B
CSKA Moskou, Lok. Moskou, Zenit: E
Shaktar & Dnipro: E
Tromso & Viking: E
?Halmstad: E?

And I suspect pairings, but already the first teams have a problem: CSKA & Lok. Moskou. Both must be E and can not be paired.
Expected pairings:
CSKA & LOk Moskou
Roma & Sampdoria
Stuttgart & Herta BSC
Monaco & Marseille
Lens & Strasbourg
AZ & Heerenveen
Sevilla & Espanyol
Basel & Grasshoppers
MiddlesBro& Bolton
Shaktar & Dnipro
Steaua & Dinamo Boekarest
Levski & CSKA Sofia
Viking & Tromso

Author: larare
Date: 04-10-2005, 11:18

About pairings. From last year we can only find one kind of pairing, teams from the same country are placed in groups A-D and E-H respectively.
This year we'll have city, or even stadium clashes (does someone know if all three Romanian stadium are good for use in the UEFA-cup?)
CSKA & Lokomotiv Moskou
Levski & CSKA Sofia
Steaua, Dinamo and Rapid Boekarest
Two teams playing at home the same round (match day) kan be avoided in numerous ways.
If one team is A, the other must be C or D
B/DE
C/AE
D/AB
E/BC
In Boekarest with tree teams it's a bit tricky, but since we know that the two last rounds (match days) are played on two dates, we can find one solution.
One team is A, one team is C and the third team is D. Team C is plaing in group A-D and team D is playing in group E-H. Let's see if this will happen later today.

Re: UEFA Cup group stage constraints
Author: Ricardo Date: 04-10-2005, 11:26	uefa.com says that the computer takes into account factors like stadium clashes and climatic conditions. Again no word about the English Cup.

Re: UEFA Cup group stage constraints
Author: Gabi Date: 04-10-2005, 11:36	Steaua Bucharest can play on its own stadium. Rapid Bucharest can play on its own stadium. Only Dinamo Bucharest might have problems with the stadium, but even if Dinamo won't be let to play on its stadium they can play on the stadium of FC National Bucharest. So there's no problem.

Re: UEFA Cup group stage constraints
Author: Nick Date: 04-10-2005, 11:40	Same thing in Sofia. Levski and CSKA can use their club stadiums and if weather is very cold (heavy snow on last matchday for example) they can always use the National stadium with it's heated pitch, although both clubs already stated that they will only use the National stadium if they really must.