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| celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: apurvdanke
Date: 10-08-2013, 17:18 Edited by: apurvdanke at: 10-08-2013, 17:23 | celtic has been drawn with the kazakh side in the CL PO. this will involve traveling 5000 km for both. the long distance travel must be quite stressing for the players involved. in the past i remember when european teams used to be drawn with teams from moscow, and if they lost in moscow, they would be forgiven for playing in the freezing cold. Once lokomotiv moscow famously beat inter 3-0 when inter players were hardly able to move. these days with so many russian and ukrainian teams, travel to russia has become quite frequent for the teams from western european leagues. however, now with kazakh sides doing well, they have to travel even farther eastwards. what would uefa do if Vladivostok had a club playing ? I feel there should be an upper limit of the travel distance when 2 teams are drawn which are geographically far apart. definitely the travel has a negative impact on the players. the matches should be played in favorable venues where travel distance involved is much lesser. another question. why is kazakhstan playing in uefa when only 10% of its area is west of urals? now you might say that turkey also has a small area in europe i.e. west of the bosphorus, but it is much closer to europe than faraway kazakhstan. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: PnavE_81
Date: 10-08-2013, 17:43 | You do realize that now only the western club has to travel the distance, right? For the return match the russian/ukrainian/kazach/.. team has to travel the same distance only in the other direction. Both teams have the same disadvantage. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: alexmorgan
Date: 10-08-2013, 19:01 | The distance between Glasgow and Astana (where the 1st leg will be played) is only 20% longer than New York to Los Angeles. Sports teams make the trip from NE USA to/from South California and all the time... they don't complain. About the travel distance being the same for both teams... not entirely true. Celtic will have to travel that distance twice to complete the tie. Karagandy only once, so they have the slight advantage travel-wise, but thats the luck of the draw. Celtic could have easily have been draw first, then they would have the travel advantage. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: apurvdanke
Date: 10-08-2013, 19:03 Edited by: apurvdanke at: 10-08-2013, 19:06 | @PnavE_81 yes, I said the same what you have said - " this will involve traveling 5000 km for both." my point is some other venues should be arranged for the 2 legs so that both teams have to travel much lesser. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: Schnapper
Date: 10-08-2013, 19:37 Edited by: Schnapper at: 10-08-2013, 20:00 | Europe is tiny and clubs involved in other continental competitions (CAF/AFC/CONMEBOL... Champions Leagues) have to travel much farther and I haven't heard of any complain yet. Even in the East section of the 3rd Russian division some teams have to travel such distances each week (from Sakhalinsk Island to Western Siberia). Silly top European clubs complaining... So you were okay not to let a Far Eastern club play at home and therefore deprive their fans of exciting games? |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: apurvdanke
Date: 10-08-2013, 20:27 | @Schnapper of course not. i mentioned that both teams have to travel similar long distances. i never mentioned that far eastern clubs should not play games at their home ground. my only question was regarding the long travel distances and time. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: yanivbm88
Date: 11-08-2013, 00:26 Edited by: yanivbm88 at: 11-08-2013, 00:51 | There had been a longer travel distance between teams, and it even happend in the 90s: Maccabi tel aviv (Israel) vs. Keflavik(Iceland) -- 5250 km. I think it was around 95/96 in cup winners cup. (Another high distance travel: PSV had to play in Novosibirsk, who is located easter than Astana or Karagandy). However it is more than possible this record will be broken when Karagandy will play in GS where they might get teams from spain or portugal. In my opinion about the topic, the only reason possible for complaints about distance, is the costs. Convenients complaints are unacceptable. If a team had been approved to play in UEFA competitions in the first place, they should be allowed to play in their area against any team. Part of the competition is to travel to unconvenient locations. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: JPV
Date: 12-08-2013, 22:19 | A huge difference between Europe and other continents can be found in: - the fact teams play in more remote cities and are more often difficult to be reached compared to LA/New York. Especially (very) Eastern european countries tend do have difficult destinations. - (main problem) the calendar is so overloaded, every extra hour travel is an extra hour trouble. - UEFA requires teams to be on the spot 1 day before the game, which causes more problems with the calendar. - >50 countries = a lot of VISA arrangements. Especially since a lot of teams have over 10 nationalities. Other continents often don't have all those problems. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: MudHen
Date: 13-08-2013, 07:19 | @JPV You are kidding, of course! First, Europe is the smallest continent. Second, Europe has roughly the same number as nations as Asia and Africa. Europe has the EU and the Schengen agreement which make the visa problem a walk in the park comparing to what happens in other parts of the world. Just think that you, as an European citizen, can go almost everywhere in the western world without a visa, but you need one for most African and Asian countries. I see that people here compare the traveling schedule to the one in the major leagues in the US. Well, in the NBA, NHL and MLB teams sometimes have to play three days in a row in three different cities and they can very well be LA, NY and Dallas. I think you overreact to the whole traveling thing. Like you said, one day teams may have to travel to Vladivostok. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: Nixda
Date: 13-08-2013, 09:08 | @MudHen I think you missed the point JPV was trying to make. Count the non-stop flights each day fom LA to NY, then count the non-stop flights each day from Glasgow to Karagandy. Dont try to pretend that it has no influence on a us pro sports team where they are located. MLB, NBA, NHL, all check for certain criterias before a relocation or a new team is accepted. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: MudHen
Date: 13-08-2013, 10:57 | Clubs use charter planes both in Europe and America. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: JPV
Date: 13-08-2013, 11:34 Edited by: JPV at: 13-08-2013, 13:07 | You are kidding, of course! First, Europe is the smallest continent. Europe, but not UEFA. Surfaces of land territory by confederation (approx): OCF 823.017kmē CONMEBOL 17.612.195kmē CONCACAF 22.549.502kmē UEFA 28.954.300kmē CAF 30.316.601kmē AFC 35.721.660kmē Not that it matters much, since f.e. OCF has almost no territories, but transportation is quite hard over there. Second, Europe has roughly the same number as nations as Asia and Africa. Correct. But how many nations have football squads which are very competitive internationally? Last year's AFC Champions league had 37 teams, including qualifiers. There were 5 qualification games. Draw for these qualification games were 2 months in advance... Group phase was 3 months in advance, teams were divided into 2 regions (east & west asia). So, ASIA's CL is WAY smaller than UEFA, and has way longer deadlines to get everything arranged. Teams are more limited and as such, more likely to be situated in the capital or the main city. The sum of all these things make it way easier. Idem for Africa, only 40 teams, only 8 teams in group phase, draw arranged months in advance, ... Europe has the EU and the Schengen agreement which make the visa problem a walk in the park comparing to what happens in other parts of the world. Just think that you, as an European citizen, can go almost everywhere in the western world without a visa, but you need one for most African and Asian countries. Agree. But: - European teams have a VERY international mix of players and transfer players when qualifying games are played. - Qualifying games are to be played only a few weeks after the draw. I see that people here compare the traveling schedule to the one in the major leagues in the US. Well, in the NBA, NHL and MLB teams sometimes have to play three days in a row in three different cities and they can very well be LA, NY and Dallas. I'd be happy to organize a continental cup when i could limit the teams to cities like Brussels, Amsterdam, London, Lissabon, Madrid, Barcelona, Milan, Roma, Moscow, Warsaw, Berlin, Frankfurt, Athens, ... but as a Western-European club, organizing a trip to Gomel, Liepajas, Gori, Tiraspol, ... is hell. I'd definitely prefer Dubai, Saigon, Delhi, ...  . |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: JPV
Date: 13-08-2013, 13:07 Edited by: JPV at: 13-08-2013, 13:07 | nevermind, edited my previous post  |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: MudHen
Date: 13-08-2013, 13:30 | Of course UEFA covers more ground if you include whole Russia which is greater than South America. But the farthest east teams have had to travel is Kazakhstan. When a team from Vladivostok qualifies for European football I promise we will have this conversation again. You have to realize that the issue is not the surface, but the longest distance between extremities. The distance between Reykjavik and Vladivostok is similar to the ones between Punta Arenas and Tijuana (yes, Mexican clubs play in Copa Libertadores) or Sidney and Damascus. On the logistic side, I already said clubs use charter planes, so the fact that there are no flights to that area makes no sense. You compare the European CL to the ones in Asia and Africa and say that there are only 40 teams entering the competition. You have to realize that is because of the economical difference between the continents and the love for football which is undoubtedly stronger in Europe. Remember when Cl had 16 team GS and only one team from each country played it? Why did they change it? Mainly because they could. European clubs have way more money in average. As for the visa factor, that only happens in QR and on very few occasions. Frankly I don't see a way around it. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: JPV
Date: 13-08-2013, 15:36 | Of course UEFA covers more ground if you include whole Russia which is greater than South America. UEFA includes Vladivostok, so you have to include them. But the farthest east teams have had to travel is Kazakhstan. When a team from Vladivostok qualifies for European football I promise we will have this conversation again. You have to realize that the issue is not the surface, but the longest distance between extremities. The distance between Reykjavik and Vladivostok is similar to the ones between Punta Arenas and Tijuana (yes, Mexican clubs play in Copa Libertadores) or Sidney and Damascus. I agree the distance is longer. But the distance isn't everything. Force a Belgian team (i'm Belgian) to play Vladivostok in preparation, and they'd do it, as long as it's prepaired and in late spring/summer/early autumn. But try to make them play a norwegian polar team in winter and they wouldn't do it, no matter what. You compare the European CL to the ones in Asia and Africa and say that there are only 40 teams entering the competition. You have to realize that is because of the economical difference between the continents and the love for football which is undoubtedly stronger in Europe. Remember when Cl had 16 team GS and only one team from each country played it? Why did they change it? Mainly because they could. European clubs have way more money in average. I don't disagree there is a huge economical difference or more love for football (hmm... however...). But the rise in participating teams has as a consequence a lot of clubs from smaller cities play international games, which causes a lot of trouble. Even when you use chartered planes, you still suffer a lot: temperature difference (wost continent for these things), time difference (idem), ... As for the visa factor, that only happens in QR and on very few occasions. Frankly I don't see a way around it. I also don't see a way around it, unless you do the Asian way: split Europe into 2, draw months ahead (f.i. dray "second round: cup winner Belgium vs. Champion Georgia/3rd team Kazakhstan") and/or use mure regionalized preliminaries. Doing so, a team could already get VISA for 2 countries, or arrange everything so the file is complete for their players. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: MudHen
Date: 13-08-2013, 16:17 Edited by: MudHen at: 13-08-2013, 16:19 | But try to make them play a norwegian polar team in winter and they wouldn't do it, no matter what. They would and they have. But the rise in participating teams has as a consequence a lot of clubs from smaller cities play international games, which causes a lot of trouble. Even when you use chartered planes, you still suffer a lot: temperature difference (wost continent for these things), time difference (idem), ... You can have a team winning the Spanish league from the most remote and smallest village in Extremadura or the Canaries. It has nothing to do with the expansion. And trust me, the fact that Europe is a compact continent makes it easier both temperature and time zone wise. OK, if Tenerife plays Tromso in winter - bad luck, but these are exceptions, and so is playing a Kazakh team and that's why nobody really pays much attention to it. Also, there is only a three hour difference between Portugal and the Caucasus or Moscow, so I don't think that's such a big problem. split Europe into 2, draw months ahead (f.i. dray "second round: cup winner Belgium vs. Champion Georgia/3rd team Kazakhstan") and/or use mure regionalized preliminaries. I really don't like groupings. I understand they do it in the QRs because teams from poorer countries are involved, but why should Scottish teams always play against clubs from Iceland, Ireland, Wales, Faeroe or Finland (and loose to them) while other teams have to pass tougher competition? |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: JPV
Date: 13-08-2013, 18:11 | But try to make them play a norwegian polar team in winter and they wouldn't do it, no matter what. They would and they have. I don't think so. Tromso was, afaik, the only polar Norwegian team which participated in UEFA, but they closest game to winter was in November. Never later than that. The last 2 matchdays were away or bye (2005/06. You can have a team winning the Spanish league from the most remote and smallest village in Extremadura or the Canaries. It has nothing to do with the expansion. When talking about statistics/probabilities, it has. And trust me, the fact that Europe is a compact continent makes it easier both temperature and time zone wise. OK, if Tenerife plays Tromso in winter - bad luck, but these are exceptions, and so is playing a Kazakh team and that's why nobody really pays much attention to it. Also, there is only a three hour difference between Portugal and the Caucasus or Moscow, so I don't think that's such a big problem. Iceland/Kazakhstan is 10 hours difference. the more realistiic Kazachstan/Portugal is 5 hours. I really don't like groupings. I understand they do it in the QRs because teams from poorer countries are involved, but why should Scottish teams always play against clubs from Iceland, Ireland, Wales, Faeroe or Finland (and loose to them) while other teams have to pass tougher competition? in order to solve those problems mentioned before. I wouldn't form groups myself, but i understand the problems, which are the hardes in all of the world; considering the tight schedule. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: MudHen
Date: 13-08-2013, 18:57 | Are you trying to say that if a club had been drawn with Tromso or Bodo/Glimt in December or February they would refuse to play? Be serious! I remember a few years back there was snow in September and they played the game. You do realize that each country sends roughly the same number of teams to European competition as twenty years ago. The only difference is that now small countries play amongst themselves first. Back in the day there were fewer QRs and a big club was seeing a lot of poor teams early on. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: JPV
Date: 13-08-2013, 20:38 | Snow isn't a problem, extreme colds are. And UEFA arranges things like this don't happen. If ever Vladivostok would qualify, they'd be treated differently. And yes, there were less teams. But there also were less countries. Which means the teams were often from bigger cities. 30 years ago, USSR was Shakhtar Donetsk, Dinamo Kiev, Spartak Moscow and Dinamo Minsk. Today, it's: Gandzasar Kapan Mika Ashtarak Pyunik Yerevan Shirak Gyumri Garabag Agdam Inter Baku Khazar Lenkoran Neftchi Baku BATE Borisov Dinamo Minsk FK Minsk Shakhtior Saligorsk Flora Tallinn Kalju Nomme Levadia Tallinn Trans Narva Chikhura Sachkhere Dila Gori Dinamo Tbilisi Torpedo Kutaisi FK Aktobe FK Astana Irtysh Pavlodar Shakhtyor Karaganda Daugava Daugavpils FK Ventspils Metalurgs Liepaja Skonto Riga Ekranas Panevezys Kruoja Pakruojis Suduva Marijampole Zalgiris Vilnius Dacia Chisinau FC Tiraspol Milsami Orhei Sheriff Tiraspol Anzhi Makhachkala CSKA Moscow Kuban Krasnodar Rubin Kazan Spartak Moscow Zenit St. Petersburg Chernomorets Odesa Dinamo Kiev Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk Metalist Kharkiv Metalurg Donetsk Shakhtar Donetsk I'm afraid there are many teams i'd rather not arrange trips to. Not necessarily because of the safety issues of language stuff, but because of long trips, hard regulations, ... |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 13-08-2013, 22:49 | About the cold, I believe UEFA regulations say that matches can't be played when the temperature is below -15C. However some years ago Twente had to play Rubin Kazan in Moscow. According to UEFA is was just above -15C, but the correct temperature was at least a few degrees below -15C. However if temperature is much below -15C even UEFA can't say that it is above -15C and a game has to be cancelled or moved to a less cold place. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: spoonman
Date: 13-08-2013, 23:51 | I can also remember Europa League R32 matches in Russia that were supposed to kick off at 18:00 CET but they had to be moved to 14:00 or 15:00 CET because of the cold. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: bugylibicska
Date: 14-08-2013, 18:40 | @MudHen I admire your patience. "The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract." @apurvdanke ``now you might say that turkey also has a small area in europe i.e. west of the bosphorus, but it is much closer to europe than faraway kazakhstan.`` Hilarious! Are you sure. ``another question. why is kazakhstan playing in uefa when only 10% of its area is west of urals?`` Have you asked the same questions from yourself about Russia, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, or Israel for that matter. How about Australia playing in Asia. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: acs4rover
Date: 16-08-2013, 13:03 Edited by: acs4rover at: 16-08-2013, 13:05 | Funny thing is that these problems "appears" only when bigger teams have them. Who complained about Aktobe - Breidablik distance ? dont remember anyone. Celtic got totally joke opponent in q2 because of stupid regional grouping, everyone know that this northern-western region (or how it is called) is weakest, at lealst in qulification phaze it is 100% true, if there was no regional grouping they could get Karagandy in q2 and not q4, or they could get Ludogoretz in q2 .... but they cannot because they are in "correct region" So seeded teams in this region has too many advantages that 1 trip to Kazahstan is nothing to talk. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: germanyfrance33
Date: 16-08-2013, 14:56 | In the year of 2013 it's completely ridiculous to whine about travel distance. Even if transportation means are sometimes problematic,the physical preparation of the players and the medical support are super effective. It's not like we 're in the 50's when Italy had to travel more than 2 weeks to get to Brazil for the WC... |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: jojo
Date: 17-08-2013, 14:31 | acs4rover: +1 |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: JPV
Date: 18-08-2013, 10:30 | @germanyfrance: how many weeks did Italy have after the end of the competition? Comparing 50's football and recent football years is impossible. Off course, the means of transportation are way easier, but the schedule is also way more tight. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: Schnapper
Date: 18-08-2013, 12:07 Edited by: Schnapper at: 18-08-2013, 12:13 | Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to watching the derby Baltika Kaliningrad - Luch Energiya Vladivostok. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: ransborg
Date: 18-08-2013, 22:30 | Wow! The russian second tier indeed has some mean travelling going on! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013%E2%80%9314_Russian_National_Football_League |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: germanyfrance33
Date: 19-08-2013, 02:46 | @JPV Of course you can't compare football of today with that of "yesterday". It was just an exaggeration to point out that anyway there are + and - in every situation that balance things up. Then you had less games but traveling was an adventure(even fatal...f.i. Man.Utd)and the level of fitness was also pathetic. Now,the schedule is tight yes,but the players are fit like superheroes. You can't have it all and anyway it's not a big deal to have 3-4 long travels every year. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: apurvdanke
Date: 19-08-2013, 06:49 | @bugylibicska "Have you asked the same questions from yourself about Russia, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, or Israel for that matter. How about Australia playing in Asia." my question was from a geographical perspective. it seems to me that a country does not have to be completely inside europe geographically, or even outside europe(as in case of israel which is in middle east), to become part of uefa. it all seems to be a matter of convenience and for the money these associations and clubs can make, while playing in uefa. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: alexmorgan
Date: 19-08-2013, 23:44 Edited by: alexmorgan at: 19-08-2013, 23:46 | Interesting.... Hope it works for them!! |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: JohnHarts
Date: 20-08-2013, 15:40 | I saw Kairat versus Kostanay in the Kazakh Premier League last year, nearly 1500 km distance between them just for a league game. Russia of course has much more insane distances. Western European countries are a little spoilt in that way. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: AnelZ
Date: 20-08-2013, 16:41 Edited by: AnelZ at: 20-08-2013, 16:41 | @alexmorgan - quite common for us Muslims as an act of submission to God after which we hope we will get blessed + those in whose name that sacrifice is also made. Eg. in Novi Pazar, Serbia when the stadium of Novi Pazar got refurbished and reconstructed I think last year (two new stands + investment in the grand stand) they sacrificed a sheep (called Qurban in that case in most of Europe) on the pitch. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: alexmorgan
Date: 20-08-2013, 16:48 | Shakhter karagandy v Celtic live on ITV4 for those in the UK |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: executor
Date: 20-08-2013, 18:40 | Prepare for more moaning!  |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: JohnHarts
Date: 20-08-2013, 20:32 | Some of the visa stuff is just idiotic. For working in Kazakhstan last year I had to get qualifications notarised, provide proof of residency at the embassy and do a HIV test. I can understand why places like the UK, Germany, Sweden or other desirable countries for immigrants do that but people are hardly lining up to migrate to Kazakhstan. A lot of it is just tit for tat, rich countries put these rules in place to restrict the number of immigrants, less well off countries do it just to get back at the rich countries and unfortunately footballers get caught up in the middle of all that. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: Beany
Date: 28-08-2013, 08:46 | The problem with this tie was the amount of time to organise the trip both for players and fans. The draw was made on Fri 9th of August. As a fan this left major difficulties. The Kazakh Embassy closed on the Friday before the draw was made. Which meant that the earliest you could apply for a Visa was Monday 12th and Tourist Visa's take a minimum of 5 working days to process which meant that Visa's would only be ready on Monday 19th after 12.00. Which meant that travel was incredibly difficult to organise. For the team it was even more problematic. There were a number of international friendlies during the week commencing Monday 12th which meant that several players were abroad with their passports and unable to apply for Visa's until Thurs 15th. The Kazakh Embassy originally advised that it would be impossible to sort out Visa's in time, but under pressure from UEFA they relaxed the Visa process for the players, but refused to offer help to supporters. The logistics of such a trip at short notice made it very difficult for Celtic and the same would have been true for Shakhter if the draw had been reversed. The only solution I can see is for the match calendar to be ammended slightly so that clubs have a minmum of 2 weeks to arrange travel. |
| Re: celtic v shakhter karagandy long distance travel | |
| Author: alexmorgan
Date: 28-08-2013, 14:40 | Shakhter looking to continue their rutual... But have been warned not to do so by UEFA. |