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Q3
Author: bert.kassies Date: 19-07-2013, 10:10	The groups for Europa League Q3 are published: Stage set for Europa League third qualifying draw.

Re: Q3
Author: Rafa_02 Date: 19-07-2013, 10:17	What about champions league

Re: Q3
Author: putje Date: 19-07-2013, 10:18	Possible draw in EL Q3: Red Star - Club Brugge. Two former finalists of what now is the Champions League!

Re: Q3
Author: bert.kassies Date: 19-07-2013, 10:20	uefa.com says for 30 minutes now: The seeding pots have been announced for Friday's UEFA Champions League third qualifying round draw. However, the full article doesn't show the pots (for me at least).

Re: Q3
Author: Lorric Date: 19-07-2013, 10:44 Edited by: Lorric at: 19-07-2013, 10:45	It does now: http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=1973163.html#big+names+awai t+third+qualifying+round+draw bugylibicska is not going to be happy about this. Group 1 is a nightmare. Group 2 is very gentle. Imo.

Re: Q3
Author: bert.kassies Date: 19-07-2013, 10:45 Edited by: bert.kassies at: 19-07-2013, 10:45	Now the groups are listed: Big names await third qualifying round draw Hmm, Lorric beats me.

Re: Q3
Author: Lorric Date: 19-07-2013, 10:46 Edited by: Lorric at: 19-07-2013, 10:47	Ninja'd Before, I was but the student. Now I am the master! You'll always be the master, Bert

Re: Q3
Author: bert.kassies Date: 19-07-2013, 10:57	lol

Re: Q3
Author: Lorric Date: 19-07-2013, 10:57 Edited by: Lorric at: 19-07-2013, 10:57	I am pleased with the selection of unseeded sides available to Swansea. @ Bert:

Author: Lorric
Date: 19-07-2013, 11:41
Edited by: Lorric
at: 19-07-2013, 11:42

Position by coefficient (1, highest, 5, lowest)

Group 1 - Seeds - 1/4/5/8/10
Unseeds - 2/3/5/6/10

Group 2 - Seeds - 2/3/6/7/9
Unseeds - 1/4/7/8/9

I wondered if it might look better applying the cold, hard numbers, but it doesn't. The numbers say Group 1's unseeded pot is stronger also. According to the numbers, Group 1 has four of the top six unseeds. The numbers for the seeds though are balanced.

Re: Q3
Author: Lorric Date: 19-07-2013, 12:13	Celtic vs Elfsborg Mo Bangura of Celtic is on loan at Elfsborg...

Re: Q3
Author: putje Date: 19-07-2013, 12:50	What about the possible Karagandy - Skenderbeu draw ??? One of these in the groupphase?

Re: Q3
Author: Lorric Date: 19-07-2013, 12:56	Of the Europa League perhaps. I doubt they'd get through the playoff round, but who knows?

Re: Q3
Author: Lorric Date: 19-07-2013, 13:02 Edited by: Lorric at: 19-07-2013, 13:02	I've just realised, that's Scotland vs Sweden for the 3rd year running in the CL. Malmo beat Rangers. Celtic beat Helsingborg. So this is the rubber match

Author: bugylibicska
Date: 19-07-2013, 13:34

``I've just realised, that's Scotland vs Sweden for the 3rd year running in the CL.``
I woke up at 4 am for this draw, but I could tell you this yesterday evening, if you asked me.

Frankly, I admire your honest naivety. It`s called the inbreeding cup!

Actually, I`m happy with the draw, because if Shakhter Karagandy advance, their next opponent Neftchi or Skenderbeu, manageable.
Dinamo Tbilisi could be dangerous, so they threw them under the bus, Steaua will take care of them. Dinamo Zagreb-Sheriff Tiraspol, it seems like the same bad dream every year. Funny, if one has a sense of humour.

Author: yanivbm88
Date: 19-07-2013, 14:41
Edited by: yanivbm88
at: 19-07-2013, 15:02

Is this draw divided to regional groups somehow?
I know last round was, both in CL and EL, but I'm not sure about this round

The champions league Q3 draw seems divided:

First group

1)FC Basel 1893 (SUI) v Győri ETO FC (HUN)/Maccabi Tel-Aviv FC (ISR)
2)Sligo Rovers FC (IRL)/Molde FK (NOR) v The New Saints FC (WAL)/Legia Warszawa (POL)
3)ŠK Slovan Bratislava (SVK)/PFC Ludogorets Razgrad (BUL) v FC Shirak (ARM)/FK Partizan (SRB)
4)FC Dinamo Tbilisi (GEO)/ EB/Streymur (FRO) v FC Steaua Bucureşti (ROU)/FK Vardar (MKD)
5)APOEL FC (CYP) v Birkirkara FC (MLT)/NK Maribor (SVN)

Second group:

6)Celtic FC (SCO)/ Cliftonville FC (NIR) v IF Elfsborg (SWE)/FC Daugava Daugavpils (LVA)
7)FC BATE Borisov (BLR)/FC Shakhter Karagandy (KAZ) v Neftçi PFK (AZE)/KS Skënderbeu (ALB)
8)FK Austria Wien (AUT) v FK Ekranas (LTU)/FH Hafnarfjördur(ISL)
9)HJK Helsinki (FIN)/JK Nőmme Kalju (EST) v FC Viktoria Plzeň (CZE)/FK Željezničar (BIH)
10)CS Fola Esch (LUX)/GNK Dinamo Zagreb (CRO) v FC Sheriff (MDA)/FK Sutjeska (MNE)

If the games of Legia (2) and Dinamo Zagreb(10) are being switched, this is perfectly divided to northwest and southeast.

Anybody knows if this is intentional or just a coincidence?

Re: Q3
Author: SirHenri Date: 19-07-2013, 15:24	Just coincendence, as Lorric explained before : Group 1 - Seeds - 1/4/5/8/10 Unseeds - 2/3/5/6/10 Group 2 - Seeds - 2/3/6/7/9 Unseeds - 1/4/7/8/9

Re: Q3
Author: yanivbm88 Date: 19-07-2013, 15:35	Yeah I know the group division should be balanced according to the ranking, but it still can be divided regionally too as possible. I'm just saying it looks too divided to be random.

Re: Q3
Author: Lorric Date: 19-07-2013, 15:50	@ bugylibicska You are too suspicious. Things like this will happen. You believe it's all predetermined, and there are so many things that can happen in a draw to trigger off confirmation bias of that. Anyway... "Frankly, I admire your honest naivety." That's an interesting statement. Why do you admire my (so called) honest naivety?

Re: Q3
Author: bugylibicska Date: 19-07-2013, 17:06	``I've just realised, that's Scotland vs Sweden for the 3rd year running in the CL.`` Do you think it`s by accident. Swansea-Malmo (Hibernian) another accident. Or pairing the former Soviets as far as possible: Karagandy-Neftchi after Karagandy-BATE. Sure I`m suspicious, if everything is clean and fair, why not an open draw.

Re: Q3
Author: SirHenri Date: 19-07-2013, 17:14	who's making profit when scottish and swedish champions are meeting every year ? Who would want that ? Things like that just happen, the more regionalized the more often. That's why I am against grouping, especially in this Q3 of the CL. I wanna c more different match ups, makes it more interesting for me. But again, I don't believe in your strange fixing theories ;-)

Re: Q3
Author: bugylibicska Date: 19-07-2013, 17:29	``But again, I don't believe in your strange fixing theories ;-)`` Nobody is forcing you. I`ve seen stranger things, but it seems even people on the other side start to wonder, why do we have to play the same teams over and over again. I remember somebody said: Oh, no, not the Crusaders again, like last year (Rosenborg fan).

Re: Q3
Author: SirHenri Date: 19-07-2013, 18:07 Edited by: SirHenri at: 19-07-2013, 18:11	Because it's just likely, when u draw let's say 100 matches in the first rounds. It's just math. Nothing else. So I say : stop grouping and those occasions will happen less often. Easy.

Re: Q3
Author: bugylibicska Date: 19-07-2013, 18:31	``So I say : stop grouping and those occasions will happen less often. Easy.`` That`s what I`m saying all along. Nothing more, nothing less.

Re: Q3
Author: SirHenri Date: 19-07-2013, 18:50	You said they fix the draws. You said certain draws were suspicious. That IS something else :-)

Re: Q3
Author: bugylibicska Date: 20-07-2013, 00:25	Yes, I`ve heard: ``when two people do the same thing, it`s not the same``, so when two people say the same thing, it`s not the same - either? What`s better, being gullible or skeptical (suspicious if you like). I know I`m very skeptical, I even doubt my own skepticism.

Author: nemesys
Date: 20-07-2013, 04:58

@bugylibicska
I even doubt my own skepticism.
And that's intellectual honesty, a virtue on my books.

I think it is kind of reasonable to think that at some levels, sometimes sport can stop being just a fair game, and too many interests, financial, politic, and such, could kick in, and unfortunately, not too often for the sake of fairness; but, as Carl Segan skeptically used to say:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I honestly didn't examine too much in depth the issue, however, I'm pretty skeptical on the theory you are proposing. I'm not saying it cannot be, but this conspiracy you are theorizing, is for what practical advantage? What concrete result?

I mean, if you are fixing a small thing, you will even more likely fix an important one. Now, to make an example, Cska, Zenit and Shakthar won the EL in the last 10 years, and if this was bothering (do I get your point correctly here, or I am missing something?), why were they allowed to? An instructed referee in any of their matches in the competition wouldn't be enough to deny them the final victory?

In general about Uefa draws: last season in CL we had a Real - Manchester and a Barca - Milan right after the GS. This doesn't prove anything of course, but which of those sides was happy with the draw? If Uefa would pay attention to special requests, why it wouldn't avoid making Real and Manchester face so soon in the KO phase of the competition?

Then if the issue is simply: "an integral draw would be the best for fairness", I see we (almost) all agree with you here.

As always, just my two distracted cents.

Cheers!

- nemesys

Author: bugylibicska
Date: 21-07-2013, 18:37

@nemesys

I remember you, when I`ve tried to stand up, not so much for Malko, but his right for free speech, you`ve written to me.
Well, I think you`ll be disappointed with my response, because I`m not that wild-eyed conspiracy theorist some would expect, not even
a hater of the West. I`ve lived most of my life in the West, in Canada, well enough, it seems. because paying 300-500 Euros from my own pocket doesn`t seem to me such a big deal. Why I believe then that UEFA manipulate the draw: ``All institutional hierarchies are inherently corrupt.``
I don`t think UEFA is more corrupt than FIFA or the UN or any government for that matter. I just don`t trust any authority, in other words, I don`t need a policeman to tell me what`s right or what`s wrong.
I don`t think my suspicion is extraordinary and I`ve no extraordinary evidence, not even an ordinary one. I don`t think UEFA hate the former Soviet countries, but they just don`t care about them, they`re not powerful enough. I`m pretty sure though there`s a bias toward them in the West, when was the last time you`ve heard a positive news about Russia from the press for example. Remember last year the negative propaganda campaign against Ukraine before the European championship.
My reason for supporting them is simple: they`re the underdogs and I generally support the underdogs. Then, I`ve travelled the first time about 10 years ago in Russia, Uzbekistan, Ukraine and discovered there`re people living behind the iron curtain. (If you`re interested a bit and have an open mind and heart, I`d recommend a film: From Russia with love with Sean Connery.) When Tobol Kostanay had a
plucky run a few years back they`ve got my attention in football as well. I don`t think Aktobe, Qarabag or any other teams from the East of Eastern Europe will ever win the CL, but I cheer for them to reach the 3rd round at least and break out from their arbitrary regional prison created by UEFA and get the chance to be paired with a big name to provide a rare, maybe once in a lifetime football festival for their country`s fans. Why I`m suspicious about UEFA about the draws: when I`ve started to follow these teams about 10 years ago, I`d great expectations before the draws, but left almost always bitterly disappointed, then frustrated. Always the same opponents, cannot be by only chance, I thought. So, I`ve computed it and it came to 10% chance to get these results. I`m not a mathematician, but I realize that 10% chance could happen once in a while, but not the 2nd time, 3rd time, 4th time in a row. By the way, my suspicion is only about these draws, I`ve never thought for a moment that UEFA try to cheat on Shakhtar or Zenit, or try to hinder or shortchange them to win in any competition.
I know I`m not the only one who think this way, I counted at least 10-15 people voiced their disappointment and frustration after the recent draws, but maybe I`m just more vocal.
And you have to realize, that standing on the other side of the fence, not feeling the pain of frustration is quite a different thing. So, if there`re maybe some more openminded guys
in the West who wonder, how is it that we play again the same team, they won`t bother much, because they`re not on the wrong side.
What`s the reasoning for UEFA to do this way, I can only speculate, cannot read their mind, have no proof. Why they divided the champions path into two groups I`d ask. Why one of the groups look much easier than the other. Why Celtic`s opponents were HJK Helsinki and Helsingborg last year and this year Cliftonville and now Elfsborg. All four from the same region. Maybe UEFA want to help Celtic into the groupstage, just asking and yes, I`m suspicious. And I`m a great fan of the Tartan Army, and like to see Celtic beating Barcelona, and playing groupstage again, but in a fair way, not like this. The teams from Wales, Northern Ireland at an open draw would risk being eliminated at the first hurdle, I don`t think UEFA want that, and the British certainly carry a greater weight in UEFA than the former Soviets. I don`t think I`m close minded, but will believe in a fair draw only, when it`ll be open. I`ve predicted the groups before the draw, the Northern group was almost identical to my prediction,
Legia came instead of BATE. (Lucky them!) Why, I`m not a future teller, but I could see the trend from the past.

Re: Q3
Author: Lorric Date: 21-07-2013, 18:58 Edited by: Lorric at: 21-07-2013, 19:00	If UEFA want to help Celtic, or Northern teams, putting Celtic vs Elfsborg is a very poor way to do it, putting surely the strongest Northern seed against perhaps the strongest Northern unseed. Feed the winner of Ekranas/FH to Celtic and give Elfsborg an easier opponent would be smarter if they were trying to do that. EDIT: They also threw Molde/Sligo into the tough half of the draw.

Re: Q3
Author: bugylibicska Date: 21-07-2013, 19:45	I don`t think I`m more biased on the East than you on the West. I agree, Elfsborg look one of the strongest among the unseeded in Celtic`s group, but why aren`t Celtic in the other group and face the possibility to be paired with Maccabi TA, Molde, Slovan Bratislava or Ludogorets, Dinamo Tbilisi and Maribor. Or, simpler, why the 2 groups at all. Can you explain it.

Author: Lorric
Date: 21-07-2013, 19:54
Edited by: Lorric
at: 21-07-2013, 19:56

Oh I think they should have just had an open draw, don't get me wrong. The group split is helpful in the Europa League, the way they use it to speed up the process, but unnecessary at the Q3 stage of the CL. The regionalisation isn't even implemented, at least the Q2 regionalisation will help the smaller league champions and travelling fans.

I guess it just fits in with UEFA's policy of having these 5 or 6 team groups.

Author: nemesys
Date: 21-07-2013, 20:02

@bugylibicska

Thanks for your long reply, interesting and appreciated.

OT

I remember you too, for chatting about Stade Reims, Kapo and Fontaine, IIRC.

Well, I think you`ll be disappointed with my response, because I`m not that wild-eyed conspiracy theorist some would expect

No, this was not my point. I don't dare judging people for an opinion, I only do dare judge theories and opinions proposed to me.

I envy you for living in Canada, honestly. As you I fear imposed untouchable hierarchy way over anarchy, whatever this could be relevant in this conversation. And I don't think I'm a naive guy from the west, whatever this could mean. The documented corruption and documented unfair "favors" in professional football (up to ridiculous levels) is unfortunately a well known concept where I live, 20 the last 22 championships (90.9%) were won by the same 3 clubs (how unlikely is this statistically?), the TV rights money is shared in a rather funny way, the football player that goes to the authorities to say they tried to bribe him loses his job and cannot find another club willing to hire him, and most of the people talk about professional sport as a subject you simply can't trust about anything.

Once in a football chat a friend said "there not only money that matters in life"; another friend replied "It is true, there are other values in life, but we are not talking about life, right now we are talking about professional football". And basically everybody agreed.

You watch football for the game itself, even a single play sometimes; not for believing in the fairness behind the whole competition.

So if your suspects would be true and confirmed by evidence tomorrow, it would not surprise me (and as well the majority of other people I guess), not at all.

Still, without proofs, I just like the best suspiciously underlining a weird fact, rather than claim as truth just a guessed reality.

I hope this doesn't offend you, take it just as my silly, simple, independent opinion, you are 100% free to don't agree with!

And as always, just my two cents!

/OT

Cheers!

- nemesys

Author: bugylibicska
Date: 21-07-2013, 21:57

@nemesys
I think you`re living in Italy, right. I`ve been only once in Italy, like almost 30 years ago, but forever remember Florence, Siena and Venice. Fiorentina were my favourite team in childhood when Hamrin played there!
Well, we`re here on this forum I suppose, because of the love of football, and exchange views, no matter how weird or strange those views for some people, without getting personal or offend the other using filthy language. We can disagree in almost everything, but with due respect.
I`ve joined only 2 years ago, but read regularly before I became a member. I believe there`s some truth in what a woman once said in Louisiana: ``anybody who shows his face in public is an ass.``

So, I needed my son-in-law`s encouragement to join, he`s Dutch and a big Ajax fan. He thinks differently as well, but we`ve agreed already, our main differences are in the roots, he was born and raised in Holland and I was born and raised in Hungary during communism.
In short, I`m more skeptical for the obvious reasons and convinced that one has not only the right to question everything, but it is his duty. Being different is healthy and should be encouraged!

Author: nemesys
Date: 22-07-2013, 12:39
Edited by: nemesys
at: 22-07-2013, 13:15

@bugylibicska

Still, without proofs, I just like the best suspiciously underlining a weird fact, rather than claim as truth just a guessed reality.

In short, I`m more skeptical for the obvious reasons and convinced that one has not only the right to question everything, but it is his duty.

Not such a big conceptual difference, if you ask me.

By the way, I 100% agree with you on that bottom line sentence, only fools take as true without questions whatever it is told to them. I just like to trace a clear line between skeptically questioning something suspicious, and claiming as truth an only guessed alternative explication.

Last OT side note about your Fiorentina: I'm not a fan, but it is widely recognized as the club that played the best (as most entertaining to watch) football in Serie A last season (and many fans believe the CL qualification was unfairly stolen to them); and this coming season could maybe have the potential (in: Gomez, Rossi back from injury, Joaquin, Alonso, ... out: only Jovetic so far) to do even better, we'll see, the pitch will tell. And, at least on paper, the team has the skills to maybe be even a pretty strong outsider club in this coming EL campaign. By the way, I went to watch a training session about 10 days ago (it was right before the signing of Gomez), Rossi and Borja Valero are such talented players!

Cheers!

- nemesys

edit: minor corrections, added some notes.

Author: Lorric
Date: 23-07-2013, 17:25
Edited by: Lorric
at: 23-07-2013, 17:26

What a pitiful end to the run of 5 successive group stage campaigns for BATE. Dumped straight out of Europe in the 2nd qualifying round, beaten home and away without even scoring a goal. So Karagandy seize BATE's seeding, and will meet Neftci or Skenderbeu. Could be a second straight GS campaign for Neftci, or a different unusual team will get GS football. That would be the first time for a Kazakh or Albanian club, wouldn't it, if they can get Neftci out of the picture? And something interesting for the Azerbaijan/Kazakhstan thread if Nefcti and Karagandy meet...

Just as with Red Bull last year, a team that would have been seeded all the way has fallen at the first hurdle, though this time it was the no.2 seed and highest rated in Q2!

Plzen will now be seeded all the way.

Re: Q3
Author: Lorric Date: 23-07-2013, 18:08	I don't gamble. But this is one rare time where I'm kind of annoyed. You saw the footage I put up of the HJK/Kalju match. Kalju unlucky not to be taking a lead back to Estonia, now up 2-0 in the home game. The odds were excellent for betting on Kalju.

Re: Q3
Author: bugylibicska Date: 23-07-2013, 18:27	Yes, it was 4.20 4.00 1.57 for Kalju-HJK.

Re: Q3
Author: Lorric Date: 23-07-2013, 19:30	Ker-ching for anyone who backed Kalju to defeat HJK. The Estonian side will meet the winner of the Plzen/Zeljeznicar match.

Re: Q3
Author: Lorric Date: 24-07-2013, 18:04 Edited by: Lorric at: 24-07-2013, 18:07	Want to win a CLQ tie? Promise to shave your head! http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=1975677.html Well, they're going to need a new trick now, perhaps the other choice he gave them, to cycle from Tallinn to Parnu... Match footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE6vtKw2WHQ&feature=c4-overview&list=UUm9p5KnMlh 7N4wb5rgcIZ2A