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Author: Lorric
Date: 30-05-2013, 22:00
Edited by: Lorric
at: 30-05-2013, 22:01

One thing I'd like to see is teams being able to "steal" a team's coefficient for the duration of a season.

For instance if someone knocks off Arsenal this year in CLQ4, they go into pot A in the GS.

If someone knocks off Rosenborg in ELQ1 this year, they get seeded in every qualifying round.

I'd like it because then it offers a suitable reward for an underdog taking down a big dog, and allows them a chance to grow their own coefficient, earned by taking down a strong team.

If you draw a lower seed, your chance of winning is greater. If you draw a higher seed, your chance of winning is lower, but you get compensated if you win.

What do you think?

Re: Coefficient borrowing
Author: magyarszurker Date: 30-05-2013, 22:05	I personally couldn't agree more, but UEFA would never allow Swansea get Celtic's coefficient for instance, because that would mean smaller teams have more chance to progress. The association is corrupted.

Re: Coefficient borrowing
Author: mspm89 Date: 30-05-2013, 22:18	That's what happened in the old system (Pre-Europa League) when the draws for a qualifying round were held between both legs of the previous round, right?

Author: ransborg
Date: 30-05-2013, 22:19

Practically that is how it works for the early rounds, where a team effectively gets seeded in the following round if the seeded team they beat are sufficiently highly ranked.
It used to be the case in the final qualification rounds as well, for instance in 08-09 where danish Aalborg qualified to CLGS by eliminating Kaunas, as a result of Kaunas eliminating Rangers in the previous round.

I think this gives a good clue to why the system was changed: By the new rules, Atletico Madrid whould have been moved up, thereby preventing them from meeting (and defeating) Schalke.

At the end of the day I like how the system works now; if you defeat one of these good-enough-to-be-seeded-next-Qround teams you get their spot. But for deciding who goes to the group stage, and especially for who meets who in the group stage, I think it is fair that clubs are ranked on their own previous results.

A side note - would you allow teams to take over taken-over coefficients? E.g. Aalborg taking the coefficient of Rangers for the GS draw in 08/09, passing that one via Kaunas.

Re: Coefficient borrowing
Author: mspm89 Date: 30-05-2013, 22:35	That would complicate things a bit too much. I think the system is good now; perhaps i would permit one round borrowing (regardless of when the draw is made) and that's it.

Re: Coefficient borrowing
Author: Lorric Date: 30-05-2013, 22:58	I do like it as is, but think it would be better this way. It only happens because of the problems drawing the early rounds. If that problem was eliminated, it would never happen. It's conceivable right now to have to defeat Rosenborg, an unseeded side, Rubin Kazan and Tottenham just to reach the group stage. Those are the top coefficients but you can play around with the teams any way you want.

Re: Coefficient borrowing
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 30-05-2013, 23:08	Very bad idea. This way you could get a very high coefficient by just playing 2 good matches. Why should you be rewarded for just 2 matches, while in the current system you get rewarded for playing over a 5 year period, which gives a much better idea of the strenght of teams.

Author: Friesland
Date: 30-05-2013, 23:30

I have supported that idea for years, so obviously I think it's a very good idea. In tennis it works the same; you beat the top seed in round 1 and can't meet the second seed until the final, the number 3 and 4 seed until the semi finals and the number 5-8 until the quarter finals.

The current drawing procedure gives you top seed in round 1, top seed in round 3 and top seed in round 4, that is most certainly unfair and unacceptable. NOTE: The draw for round 1 and 2 is held simultaneously, so you can't meet the top seed in round 2.

Re: Coefficient borrowing
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 30-05-2013, 23:41	Then you should have performed better in the previous 5 years, so you wouldn't be unseeded.

Author: Lorric
Date: 31-05-2013, 00:16
Edited by: Lorric
at: 31-05-2013, 00:20

Take my example, imagine you beat 3/4 of those teams and lose on penalties to Tottenham.

Here you go, 1.5pts. Maybe you'll be seeded in Q1 next time.

They deserve more than that under those circumstances. The win over Rosenborg gives them a better chance, and a chance I think they deserve.

Even if they beat all those teams under the current system, they could still get a set of powerful teams in the GS and only end up getting 2pts for their trouble.

The coefficient you earn starts you off. If you're a big coefficient, all you have to do is not get KOd and you reap the benefits. Nobody's losing anything. The KOd teams come back with their full coefficient next year.

EDIT: Teams KOd from the CL dropping down would lose any higher coefficient they had picked up.

Re: Coefficient borrowing
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 31-05-2013, 08:29	You have a point there. But that could also be fixed by giving clubs more points in the QR's. It is just unfair that a team starting in ELQ3 (without any European matches last 5 years) and beats 1 seeded opponent gets seeded in ELQ4 while a team starting in ELQ4 which played European matches all 5 previous years gets unseeded because of that.

Author: magyarszurker
Date: 31-05-2013, 12:24

You know that's not necessarily the case. They would only get seeded if the beaten opponent have a high enough coefficient to be seeded in the next round. In which case we can safely assume it is a significantly strong team comparing the unseeded side. And a team would only get unseeded because of that if they are already in the "danger zone" regarding coefficient. "Then you should have performed better in the previous 5 years."

Re: Coefficient borrowing
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 31-05-2013, 12:31	It's just an example. I just have the opinion that seeding should be based on a longer period and not on 2 matches which you could have won by just a few moments.

Author: mudhen
Date: 31-05-2013, 14:58

You forget the main goal of european competitions: to display great football. Of course everybody on this forum talks about coefficients, but the majority of those who follow CL and EL are interested in seeing the best football.

If for example you had a group with more than two teams that normally belong in the fourth pot, few of the neutral fans would end up watching such games. It would be bad for fans, for TV. The GS in both CL and EL has become a bore since way to many teams are allowed in.

Of course, lower countries have to be given a chance to advance and i think they are, but not in one season. And i think that's fair. Why do we have country rankings in the first place? To give a bonus to those who have performed well over 5 years.

Re: Coefficient borrowing
Author: Lorric Date: 31-05-2013, 19:14	One big game of King of the Hill. Pull someone down and take their place.

Author: putje
Date: 31-05-2013, 20:04

I once had the idea of organising only 3 draws.
In that way, you would have only 1 draw for all 4 qualifiing rounds. So you would automatically take the place of the team you eliminated if that team had a better ranking.
But i'm quite convinced UEFA will never change it in that way.

By the way. I have an own ranking systhem in wich the quality of the oponent weights for a small part. To keep it simple: you get a small piece of the oponents ranking in case of a victory.
Dosn't make a big difference in the overall result, but I feel fine by the idea.

Re: Coefficient borrowing
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 31-05-2013, 20:08	Drawing all 4 QR's in EL at the same time is very hard, because you will have a hard time seperating all teams from the same country.