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Author: nemesys
Date: 03-05-2013, 12:44

This is just a (silly maybe) idea that crossed my mind.

The fact that the 3rd in a CL group qualifies for spring football in EL makes the last matches of CL group stage more interesting, since often all the 4 clubs fight for something up to the last match.

In the other hand, I personally (and this is a just personal opinion, I could be wrong) never appreciated too much the switch of competition at half season: either you are good enough to qualify to the next round, or you are not.

Also, often skilled clubs finishing 3rd just because of a bad start of the season in Europe, end up the European season getting to the final of EL, as happened this season to Chelsea and Benfica, proving themself good enough to compete in Europe.

Plus, CL matches are not so many, and since this year 1/8 of final are diluted over a period of more than 4 weeks IIRC: so playing the 1/8 of finals condensed as they were played up to the last season, there is space in for an extra round; and the majority of the clubs involved would appreciate a format with a couple more games to play in CL, since they bring money.

So this is the idea I'm wondering about:

- 1st in CL GS qualifies to the 1/8 of final
- 2nd in CL GS qualifies to an intermediate round vs. a 3rd playing the 2nd leg home
- 3rd in CL GS qualifies to an intermediate round vs. a 2nd playing the 2nd leg away
- 4th in CL GS is eliminated
- no more droppings in EL

So you have 24 clubs out of 32 qualifying to the next round and still playing in CL in spring: the 8 group winners qualify to the 1/8 of final directly, while the 2nds and the 3rds (16 clubs in total) face each others (with country protection and group mixing) to determinate the other 8 clubs in the 1/8 of final, with the 8 losers out from the competition about February-March.

If you think about it, 2nds often get eliminated the next round anyways (Porto, Milan, Shakthar, ...), so playing an extra round vs. a 3rd might be a chance to play a couple of extra CL matches in the season. And this could also have the advantage to "level" the groups of death: if for real a group has 3 of the best clubs out there, they all will have a chance to progress up to the round they deserve to.

Again, just an idea, what do you think about it?

Cheers!

- nemesys

Re: 24 clubs in CL after Christmas?
Author: nemesys Date: 03-05-2013, 12:55	I forgot to mention: replacing the 8 clubs dropping from CL into the EL could maybe be done promoting to the round of 32 in EL the best 8 3rds in EL groups? This way you give the same "points are always useful up to the the last match" criteria also to the EL GS? Or there is a better solution maybe? Cheers! - nemesys

Author: Cloakmaster
Date: 03-05-2013, 13:54

For me, this would be too much baby-sitting a 3rd ranked team in GS. Beining in the lower half should not enable you to promote to the next stage.

After some time adapting i like the current System pretty much, with one exeption:
I still fancy my idea of a qualification group stage in CL's champions path, replacing qualification rounds 1-3 by six matchdays of that qualification group stage. 40 national champions ranked 13-53 playing in 10 gruķups of 4 teams. Group winners promote to CL-Playoffs, 2nd placed teams move to EL-PO.
In case the title holde spot is not used, the best group winner gets direct entry to group stage, the best 2nd-placed team moves up to CL-PO, and the best 3rd placed team moves up to EL-PO.

Author: nemesys
Date: 03-05-2013, 14:08
Edited by: nemesys
at: 03-05-2013, 14:12

For me, this would be too much baby-sitting a 3rd ranked team in GS
True. However an EL "relegation" is the same kind of gift, and the change of competition at half season makes it even less logical if you ask me, since Shakhtar, Porto, Milan, Celtic and all the 2nds not good enough to pass the 1/8 of final don't get a chance in EL as Chelsea or Benfica. You are in CL, you get more money, but you have to play in the hard competition the whole season: in the current format dropping out as 3rd is actually the shortest way to get from a lack of results in the GS: 1) CL money, 2) a remarkable chance of a positive European season in EL with all its image benefits, 3) an high coefficient improving the seeding in future CLs.

EDIT (...while finishing 2nd often means go home the next round)./EDIT

However, it is just a matter of opinions I guess, I'm not even too sure I would really like it, and I don't believe Uefa will ever adopt this idea anyways: I was just sharing a consideration.

Thanks for your opinion, interesting the note about QRs.

Cheers!

- nemesys

Re: 24 clubs in CL after Christmas?
Author: spoonman Date: 03-05-2013, 14:13	Let's make it a little "fairer"... 2nd placed vs 3rd placed teams play a one-off match, 2nd placed team is at home. No extra time, no penalties. In case of a draw, the 2nd placed club advances to the Round of 16.

Author: nemesys
Date: 03-05-2013, 14:18
Edited by: nemesys
at: 03-05-2013, 14:18

Let's make it a little "fairer"...
It makes sense, also if there is one less game to make money from...
I don't know how much clubs will prefer this solution. I guess clubs would likely rather have: 2 legs (home/away), then in case the 180' score is even (2-1 0-1 OR 3-3 1-1 OR 0-0 0-0 ... ) it is always the 2nd to go to the next round. No away goals rule, no ET, no PKs. Or maybe not?

Cheers!

- nemesys

Re: 24 clubs in CL after Christmas?
Author: executor Date: 03-05-2013, 14:38	nemesys: - no more droppings in EL Jeez! You REALLY hate 3rd placed teams being transferred to EL As for the idea: it's one of those wonderful formats that will, unfortunately, never come to reality. I like it, but UEFA won't

Re: 24 clubs in CL after Christmas?
Author: mjohnson1989 Date: 03-05-2013, 15:37	I've also never been in favour of Champions League teams transferring to the Europa League- at any stage. This is just my opinion, but it's almost like they are rewarding failure. I've also always believed there are too many clubs in the Europa League

Author: nemesys
Date: 03-05-2013, 15:44

Jeez! You REALLY hate 3rd placed teams being transferred to EL
LOL. Please, don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly fine with the actual Uefa competitions formats, and actually I can sleep at night.

However yes, I'll be sincere, even if it doesn't really bother me, I find the drop out to EL quite illogical under many points of view. And this is just a personal opinion of course, not a fact everyone must agree with.

I just wanted to check out who else would think the same way about it.

Cheers!

- nemesys

Re: 24 clubs in CL after Christmas?
Author: nemesys Date: 03-05-2013, 15:45	I've also never been in favour of Champions League teams transferring to the Europa League- at any stage. This is just my opinion, but it's almost like they are rewarding failure. Pretty close to my thoughts. Cheers! - nemesys

Author: Lorric
Date: 03-05-2013, 16:08

@ mjohnson1989

That is a typical English viewpoint I've seen, but it isn't mine. It's not a reward for failure. I always see it as simply dropping to the level teams that did worse than you domestically are at. Especially for the non-champions path in the CL, it would be absolutely brutal if losing teams there were knocked completely out of Europe.

Nemesys' idea would eliminate group stage dropouts, but it would completely ruin the Europa League group stage. Many teams there like to do just enough to get out of the group. They don't care about the seeds for the KO stage. Which in this case I guess would be winners vs thirds and seconds against other seconds. Imagine that when all you have to do is finish above one team. Especially if it's a group with an absolute minnow.

CL groups need an incentive to finish third. The gaps between teams are greater at the top. There would be a big increase in dead rubber matches in the CL if there was no prize for finishing third. It's not so bad in the Europa League, as the groups are more competitive.

Author: nemesys
Date: 03-05-2013, 17:14

@Lorric
Interesting post.

Nemesys' idea would eliminate group stage dropouts, but it would completely ruin the Europa League group stage. Many teams there like to do just enough to get out of the group. They don't care about the seeds for the KO stage. Which in this case I guess would be winners vs thirds and seconds against other seconds. Imagine that when all you have to do is finish above one team. Especially if it's a group with an absolute minnow.

About EL R32 seedings, by the way, just as a side note, it would be:
- the 12 1sts in EL GS plus the best 4 2nds in EL GS are seeded,
- while the remaining 8 2nds and the 8 best 3rds would be unseeded.

If you replace 8 CL drop out clubs with 3rds from EL GS you actually qualify only the best 8 3rds in the EL groups, not all of them. So just finishing 3rd it is not enough, you need to score a good amount of points anyways. Besides, you can plan about alternative solutions to replace those clubs in EL.

My proposal only focuses on avoiding CL clubs to drop in EL in the middle of the season, a solution few like while few are not really fan of; it is not focused on rewarding 3rds in EL GS, which is just the quickest way to fix the issue "what about the lacking clubs in the EL round of 32?".

If you ask me, fair could also be just eliminate the 3rds in the group in both competitions; but it is also true that this makes the last matchdays often useless, as we already both pointed out. Hence the need to give to the 3rds a reward, at least in CL.

It is definitely interesting that you fear that avoiding drop outs would ruin somehow the EL competition, since I, by the way, personally think the opposite, that the credibility of the EL itself as a major European competition it is weakened by the fact that drop out eliminated from another competition are allowed to take part of it beginning their campaign at half way of the season.

I mean, leaving the EL be a competition on its own, with its own list of participants and its own "flavor" and "personality", rather than a relegated clubs competition, would likely be a better alternative for the competition itself on my books.

Matter of opinions and points of view I guess, but I really believe that isolating EL from CL it is actually the only way to give to the EL trophy some prestige and charisma.

In terms of balance of rewards, Shakhtar as a reward for preceding Chelsea in the CL GS had to face Borussia Dortmund without any parachute alternative after; while Chelsea as a reward for finishing 3rd was seeded in EL R32 with the possibility to face a more affordable EL campaign and collect way more points. And both the clubs got about the same good CL money.

I think that _probably_ (I'm not even too sure myself, I'm just sharing a concept and an idea here

) it would be preferable, just to make a random example, Shakthar facing Ajax and Chelsea facing Celtic, with both clashes in a CL intermediate stage in the early spring before the CL 1/8 of final, with the loser going home after missing its chance to continue its CL campaign. And I guess even Benfica and Chelsea would have preferred that solution back in December.

While the group winners are, since they won their group, directly promoted to the 1/8 final stage, which would make sense to me.

However also about this concept, I guess it is only a matter of opinions and personal taste.

Again, I'm just spending some free time I have today sharing an idea, which of course could be a silly alternative or simply a solution which is worst than the competitions format we already have now.

Thanks for sharing your point of view.

Cheers!

- nemesys

Author: Lorric
Date: 03-05-2013, 17:52

It sounds more appealing now I realise not all the thirds would be advancing. It reminds me a little of the 2010 African World Cup qualifying second round, where you had 12 groups, only instead of thirds it was the winners and the top 8 2nds advancing into the final round.

I could certainly roll with giving it a try. Would teams eliminated in CL qualifiers still drop to the EL though? I think that should stay.

I imagine you would give CL Round 2 teams 1 bonus point, while teams going directly to CL round 3 5 bonus points. Round 2 winners would not collect the other 4 bonus points.

2nds would have the home leg in the 2nd leg, and 1sts would in the third round.

You know I could imagine people going against this even more being like "Oh, it's even more of a reward for failure now!"

For fun, I will cook up a couple of draws for the competitions under your rules this year. Teams from the same group and country kept apart:

Champions league Round 2/3

3rd vs 2nd
vs
1st

Ajax vs Porto
vs
Juventus

Chelsea vs Valencia
vs
Dortmund

Dynamo Kiev vs Real Madrid
vs
Schalke

Olympiakos vs AC Milan
vs
Manchester United

Zenit vs Shakhtar Donetsk
vs
PSG

Benfica vs Galatasaray
vs
Malaga

BATE vs Arsenal
vs
Barcelona

Cluj vs Celtic
vs
Bayern

Europa League will be in the next post.

Author: Lorric
Date: 03-05-2013, 18:12

Oh, and implement the Champions Path group stage idea.

Europa League. Same groups and nations kept apart

Top 4 2nds:

Bayer Leverkusen
Atletico Madrid
Monchengladbach
Levante

Top 8 3rds:

Young Boys
Copenhagen
PSV Eindhoven
Videoton
Maritimo
Rosenborg
Marseille
Athletic Bilbao

Draw (unseed vs seed)

Rosenborg vs Dnipro
Videoton vs Hannover 96
Basel vs Bayer Leverkusen
PSV Eindhoven vs Liverpool
Napoli vs Genk
Tottenham vs Metalist Kharkiv
Young Boys vs Lazio
Stuttgart vs Atletico Madrid
Newcastle vs Steaua Bucharest
Maritimo vs Lyon
Sparta Prague vs Bordeaux
Internazionale vs Viktoria Plzen
Anzhi vs Monchengladbach
Athletic Bilbao vs Rubin Kazan
Copenhagen vs Fenerbahce
Marseille vs Levante

Re: 24 clubs in CL after Christmas?
Author: putje Date: 04-05-2013, 21:27	A'm not against this idea. In fact a while ago, I had the same idea of this intermediate round. In order to look for a better reward of the EL, one of my ideas was to expand the ChL to 40 clubs. The idea was not my best and off topic anyway. To reduce the 40 clubs to 16 + 8 (EL) I needed an intermediate round, with +/- the same structure as this proposal (buth I kept 8 teams falling to the EL).

Author: hertolo
Date: 05-05-2013, 22:21

I like the idea of the intermediate round for the CL. In my mind, it works out perfectly in keeping the competitions separate and giving the 'intermediate' (=3rd) teams another interesting game in spring

I am however stunned that nobody suggested the obvious way to add the 8 more clubs needed for proper 16th finals in Europa League. Just add 4 more groups. However, 16 more teams would only add more boredom probably to the already not very much liked group stage of Europa League. I would rather prefer to just lost the group stage for Europa League. With a cup system, you lose the 'useless' games and every single game is valued. You can also incorporate more clubs in the system and lose the many many summer rounds. Of course you lose predictability for finances (tv rights) and 'travelling', which is probably why UEFA changed to a group stage after all...

Author: nemesys
Date: 06-05-2013, 00:27

I would rather prefer to just lost the group stage for Europa League. With a cup system, you lose the 'useless' games and every single game is valued. You can also incorporate more clubs in the system and lose the many many summer rounds. Of course you lose predictability for finances (tv rights) and 'travelling', which is probably why UEFA changed to a group stage after all...

I grow up when Champions Cup, Uefa Cup, and Cup Winners Cup had the format of 2 leg KOs since the start of the season; no other format since then ever looked better to me. I can remember a CL GS Real - Milan match few years ago played as a friendly, whit AC Milan (and probably even Real) resting many starters since that game was useless in term of the group final ranking, with both clubs qualified and 1st and 2nd place already decided. For such a classic was such a shame on my books. And I remember a Milan - Real clash in autumn the year 1990 or 1991, second round of Champions Cup, with the loser going home: the spectacle was more entertaining, of course.

Now the "true" Uefa competitions, speaking for myself and just speaking about my personal tastes, really start in spring.

IIRC, I believe it was the need to guarantee the top clubs a minimum of 6 match every season (in order to avoid the birth of an European League independent from Uefa) the reason to introduce the Group stage in the Uefa competitions, and now the clubs would never give up on the group stage phase I fear, no matter if from a football spectator point of view the 2 Legs KOs can be more entertaining: a Manchester - Real in the second round in autumn would be bad for both of them; a Manchester - Real in 1/8 of final in spring still bad for them, but after 6 MD of GS it is for them more acceptable I guess.

Then yes, it is quite arguable that the GS guarantees 6 matches to play to all the clubs qualified, but a negative match in QRs at the beginning of the season can delete all that privilege at once.

And this for smaller clubs can be picking between 2 risks: invest in the summer the money that will come from a possible European campaign to be ready to face it the best possible; or ignore that money thinking of it as an opportunity not already achieved and hence be unready to face the European adventure the best way possible if qualified. Kind of ironic somehow...

And yes again, avoiding QRs and starting the Europa League with 128 clubs and KOs since the beginning for example, I don't think it would increase the number of match days to play for the winner, and IMHO would likely, as you pointed out, offer more entertaining matches.

But still, for the reasons above, I don't think Uefa will never come back, not even in Europe League, on the Group Stage phase. And to be sincere it is not a format I dislike: it could be worst. I mean, actually I like it. But for a football competition pathos also for me nothing is preferable than the historical 2 legs KO clash format.

Thanks for your opinion.

---
@Lorric
Thanks for putting up a quick example of what the clashes could be this season.

---

Cheers!

- nemesys

Author: SirHenri
Date: 06-05-2013, 11:43

I think there would be a lot of unintering matches too. If REal beats Dinamo Tiflis 7-0 at home, how interesting is the 2nd leg ?

And if you avoid such matches, because you don't seed too much, you automatically get Real-ManU and Tiflis-Tiraspol in the same round.

So both comeptions have their problems, I would stick to how it is, in average you got maybe 1-2 matches without meaning in the group stage. Sometimes 4 and sometimes none. Out of 12, that'S ok, you wouldn't reduce that wis unbalanced knock-out-stages.

But I like the idea of those intermediate knock-out-games 2nd vs. 3rd, I'd give that idea a shot :-)

Re: 24 clubs in CL after Christmas?
Author: nemesys Date: 06-05-2013, 16:51 Edited by: nemesys at: 06-05-2013, 16:52	@SirHenri I could say that in theory Dinamo Tiflis (Tiblisi?) could win 8-0 in the second leg, but honestly what you say makes sense. No format really guarantees always entertainment, always pathos, and always good matches. Hence, since a group stage in autumn it is the format the clubs asked Uefa to adopt, and actually it is not a bad format, let's just be happy with it. Cheers! - nemesys

Author: hertolo
Date: 06-05-2013, 19:08
Edited by: hertolo
at: 06-05-2013, 19:10

Well, Real Madrid theoretically should not be in the Europa League. If that case happens though, I would congratulate Tiflis for getting such a good draw. I bet there would be a big interest in Georgia for that game whereas it would be two games for Madrid, not the end of the world. (and that same match-up would not be more interesting in a group stage, I might add)

Keep in mind, I want to keep the group stage for the Champions League, but there are two differences for the Europa League: 1) The 3rd place gets nothing, so there's a bigger chance for a game to be about nothing, 2) The clubs don't care if they are 1st or 2nd since the draw afterwards can go every way (and admittedly that's because the comparatively strong 3rd placed CL teams go in both pots...).

Regarding the group stage, there are also a few other problems for the Europa League: Attendance seems to be low across the group stage (that's personal experience, does someone have actual numbers?) and thus, the game don't give a profit to the clubs, at least not a monetary one. The points take time to pay off which means you should be a regular member of the GS and so on.

@nemesys You are certainly correct with your reasons why we do have a group stage, but on the other hand, the UEFA cup has tested around ever imaginable form of the group stage (those dreaded 5 team groups) and nobody seems to be happy about it. And it's not like the discussion in here will change anything at all

[One last point, these endless qualifying stages in the summer are as enerving as pointless, see FC Basel with 20 (!!) European games this season, just because they had to start in the second round...>

Re: 24 clubs in CL after Christmas?
Author: Lorric Date: 06-05-2013, 21:51 Edited by: Lorric at: 06-05-2013, 21:52	Yes, Dinamo Tbilisi's stadium holds in excess of 50,000. They'd fill it up and make some money Well, unless they lost the first leg 7-0 in Madrid Oh, and you're welcome, Nemesys. Though it wasn't so quick

Author: nemesys
Date: 07-05-2013, 03:25

@hertolo
I was just trying to say that a group stage phase in autumn is a deal way more acceptable than an "invitation European super league" (the kind of project the G14-G22-Gwhatever was talking about few years ago) with marketing criteria rather than merits earned on the pitch as qualification requirements. As a "philosophical concept" chat on what is the format we prefer to watch, I believe we are sharing exactly the same point of view!

Then I also added, answering to SirHenri, that it is also true that no format really guarantees anything in terms of spectacle: generically speaking I like the best H2H KOs since the beginning of the season, and I think it is statistically speaking the most entertaining format, but even with that solution some clashes could result to be a bit boring anyways. It depends.

@Lorric
Thanks for spending you time then.

Cheers!

- nemesys

Re: 24 clubs in CL after Christmas?
Author: Lorric Date: 07-05-2013, 03:56	You're welcome