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Author: Tobcoach
Date: 15-01-2013, 16:04

Swansea City FC have a reasonable chance of making it through to the League Cup final in England, in which they might face Bradford City (or Aston Villa).

A few years ago, Cardiff City did the same thing. Back then there was a discussion about the question whether Cardiff would be eligable to play for England in the European Cups. Cardiff being a Welsh club (like Swansea)really should play for Wales, and not for England, was a much heard argument back then.

Can history repeats itself? Or is it more accepted nowadays for a Welsh club, playing in an English competition, to play for England in Europe?

Or can this situation be compared with Liechtenstein, where clubs from Liechtenstein play in the Swiss league, but will never be eligable to play for Switzerland?

Author: AlanK
Date: 15-01-2013, 16:20

So the only real problem would be a coefficient problem (or not?). If Swansea plays, do coefficient points go to England, given that one of their places is taken by a Welsh team? Great problem.
In 1971, I attended the Real Madrid-Cardiff City game in the "Recopa" in Madrid. Back then, such thorny problems as this . . . were not problems--or, come to think of it, did Cardiff qualify playing in the English Cup or the Welsh Cup? Gotta admit, I haven't the faintest, although seems as though they might have qualified via the Welsh Cup--I assume there was one. Pardon my iggerance . . .

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 15-01-2013, 16:22

You can't compare it with Liechtenstein/Switzerland since Liechtenstein has no league of their own. So the Liechtenstein clubs have to play in another league. They do however play in the Liechtenstein Cup, so that is the way they can qualify for Europe.

Swansea and Cardiff play only in English leagues and cups, while they could also play in Welsh league and cups if they wanted. So in football matters they have nothing to do with Wales (I assume they are also members of the English FA, but I'm not sure about that?).
If would be strange if the English FA and clubs are OK with them playing in the English leagues/cups, but are not OK when they play in CL/EL for England.
Swansea and Cardiff are in the same situation as Derry City. They play in the Irish league while being a Northern Irish club and can only qualify for CL/EL for Ireland.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 15-01-2013, 16:25
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 15-01-2013, 16:34

In 1970 Cardiff City won the Welsh Cup, so they played the CWC for Wales.

At that time Wales was like Liechtenstein is now. They did not have a national league (only formed in 1992), but did have a Cup. So all Welsh clubs played in the English leagues and the Welsh Cup. So they could only qualify for Europe via the Welsh Cup.

From 1992 onwards clubs had to choose if they wanted to play in English league or Welsh league, and clubs that chose the English leagues could not participate in the Welsh Cup any more from 1996 onwards, and so could not qualify for Europe any more via Wales since 1992.

Author: Cymruambyth98
Date: 15-01-2013, 17:50

This is a topic that keeps cropping up because of the strange circumstances surrounding it, and it becomes even more prominent as Swansea (9th in PL) and Cardiff (1st in Championship) improve.
All this might have been solved had the FAW forced the Welsh-based clubs in the English system to join the League of Wales (which they had the right to do.)

Regarding the current situation, as far as I know the clubs are members of both FA's, and up until last season, Swansea and Cardiff were regulated by the FAW. I remember many a case of the clubs appealing against red cards to the FAW, which always seemed odd to me, as those cards were given in competitons governed by the FA.
More on that here :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/may/06/fa-faw-cardiff-swansea

Just an observation - UEFA actually classifies Swansea as a Welsh club, with that flag under the name:
http://www.uefa.com/teamsandplayers/teams/club=52659/domestic/index.html

Author: Tobcoach
Date: 15-01-2013, 19:08

Interesting info, thanks Forza-AZ and Cymruambyth98.

I believe it's not a matter of the English or Welsh FA to decide, but for the UEFA. If the English FA is ok with Swansea to play for England in next years Europa League, but the UEFA isn't, it could block Swansea's return to the European fields.

And for arguments sake just assume Bradford will qualify for the final of the League Cup, but loses to Swansea, which aren't allowed to enter the EL for England, would Bradford play, considering they might not have a license to play in European UEFA-competitions?

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 15-01-2013, 19:24
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 15-01-2013, 19:28

Normally only the winner of the League Cup qualifies for EL. So when the winner qualifies for the CL, the losing finalist will not qualify for the EL.
However if the winner is considered to be from another country, then Bradford might qualify as "best English club" in the League Cup. I'm not sure about that however.

The regulations say this:
2.03 In special circumstances, the winner of another official domestic competition may be entered for the UEFA Europa League instead of the lowest ranking top domestic league representative referred to in paragraphs 2.02(b) and 2.02(c), provided such a competition has been approved by UEFA before the start of the season in question.

The question then is what is the definition of winner. Is it only the winner, or is it the best club that can qualify for CL/EL (so excluding banned clubs and clubs from another association etc.)

Author: Lorric
Date: 15-01-2013, 20:26
Edited by: Lorric
at: 15-01-2013, 20:29

As far as I know, prior to the final, the English FA agreed to let Cardiff through as a representative of England if they had won, and Swansea will also be representing England if they take the cup. They will use England's coefficient and I predict officially they'll be regarded as an English club. Even if that Welsh flag stays there on UEFA.com, for all intents and purposes they'll be English.

The Liechtenstein example, that's okay because Vaduz qualify through a Liechtenstein held competition. I would also expect Cardiff/Swansea to be treated as Welsh if they were ever allowed to qualify through the Welsh Cup and did so. As it is they don't compete in the Welsh system, so with no access route to Europe other than through England, it's not really fair to them as clubs to be punished just because of their geographical location.

Author: TimJohnson
Date: 15-01-2013, 20:54

Last season UEFA confirmed they can only qualify through the English system and can be classed in my opion as English club based in Wales.All clubs must be nominated and the English FA confirmed they would have nominated Cardiff City if they had beaten Liverpool in the English League Cup Final last season. They do not play in the Welsh Pyramid system and cannot qualify as a Welsh club.
They would of course have the English country coefficient. Although members of the FAW would have the licence through the English FA.

Author: carragher23
Date: 15-01-2013, 23:07

The FAW tried to force the Welsh clubs in England into the Welsh League and they resisted as they get many more fans than the Welsh League clubs, eventually there was an appeal to UEFA and the Welsh clubs were allowed to stay in the English system (I think 6 stayed - Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham, Newport County and I don't know the other 2) but could no longer represent Wales in Europe, so they all dropped out of the Welsh Cup (which Cardiff & Swansea regularly won until then). The question of European qualification through the English league/cups only arose when Cardiff reached the FA Cup final a couple of years ago and it was agreed that Welsh clubs could represent England in Europe, so if Swansea win the League Cup then they'll be allowed in to Europe.

A second question is to whether Bradford City would be allowed in Europe - Swindon & QPR both won the League Cup in the 1960's as 3rd level clubs and weren't allowed to play in Europe, so I presume that the same rule still applies and Bradford wouldn't be in Europe

Author: dbaker
Date: 16-01-2013, 03:13

carragher, here's what I've found so far about non-first-tier teams winning the League Cup:

QPR's victory in 1967 was before the League Cup granted a European place (that started in 1968).
In 1969, when Swindon Town won it, there was a rule stating that only Division One teams could get a UEFA Cup berth that way.
Aston Villa won in 1975 as a Division Two team, but they were also promoted to Division One the same year. They did earn a UEFA Cup berth.
Sheffield Wednesday was in the same situation as Villa in 1990-91 - Division Two, won promotion and the League Cup the same year, but did not participate in the UEFA Cup. Not sure why, although this was shortly after the reinstatement of England to European competition following the Heysel disaster; it may be that because England had so few teams in European competition (only four that year), they decided not to allocate one to the League Cup winner.

No non-Premier League team has won it since, though several have made the final. Birmingham City a couple years ago won it and got relegated from the Premier League in the same year; they were in the Europa League. Millwall made it as FA Cup runner-up in 2004 and Cardiff would have in '08 had they won the final, so second-tier teams are definitely allowed now, but I'm not sure about third-tier (or fourth, as Bradford is). (I suspect that the rule now is just "did they apply for a license, and do they meet the criteria?", but I could be wrong.)

Re: Swansea City: eligable for England in CL/EL?
Author: Lorric Date: 16-01-2013, 07:44	I don't think Bradford City would have any trouble meeting the criteria. They've been in Europe before once when they were a Premier League team, and are still in the same stadium (and have been for over a century.)

Re: Swansea City: eligable for England in CL/EL?
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 16-01-2013, 09:01	There is no rule that lower level teams can't play in Europe (it doesn't matter if they are 2nd level or lower). They just have to meet the UEFA criteria, which normally isn't a problem since teams can always play there EL-matches in another stadium if their own doesn't meet the criteria.

Author: carragher23
Date: 16-01-2013, 20:59

dbaker, you aren't quite right:

West Brom won the League Cup the year before QPR (65/6) and played in the Fairs Cup because of it, so the rule was in place when QPR won it.

When Sheff Wed won it in 90/1 you are correct that there was only 1 UEFA Cup place for England because of the Heysel ban - and Liverpool were runners up and went into the UEFA Cup.

The bottom line is that we don't know if Bradford will be allowed in Europe - and may never know

Re: Swansea City: eligable for England in CL/EL?
Author: Lusankya Date: 23-01-2013, 22:42	Nice, Swansea City is in the final. So either a Welsh or a 4th level team will represent England in the EL.

Author: JackB
Date: 24-01-2013, 02:00
Edited by: JackB
at: 24-01-2013, 02:11

Looking at the access list I can see that us or Bradford would start in Q3 (barring some situation where we finish 6th in the PL and neither FA Cup finalist need the spot). My question is regarding the coefficient and seeding. As neither side has played in Europe recently I assume they would just get the basic country coefficient? How is that now calculated and would that likely be enough for seeding in Q3 (or even Q4/GS?). Would be highly annoying to reach the EL then get knocked out by Valencia or Schalke in the first round!

Edit:
Just did a bit more digging around and it looks as though it's 20% of the country coefficient. From the current coefficient of 84 that looks like it'll be around 17 (although I suspect this will go up further this season if our remaining teams do well?), which would be enough for seeding in Q3 and 4, and pot 3 for GS. Is that correct or have I got that totally wrong?

Re: Swansea City: eligable for England in CL/EL?
Author: JackB Date: 24-01-2013, 02:02	Just to add, Swansea have played in the Cup Winners Cup a number of times as Welsh Cup winners. In 1982 we finished sixth in the first division and would have qualified for the UEFA cup. Whether we would have been allowed or not I don't know, as we also won the Welsh Cup and entered the CWC instead.

Author: Lorric
Date: 24-01-2013, 03:19
Edited by: Lorric
at: 24-01-2013, 03:27

@ JackB

It always has been enough, England's base coefficient, in the past to be seeded in Q3 and Q4, but could potentially not be next year. The number required to be seeded ought to be higher next year, as we'll finally have a full set of the new higher bonus points over the 5 years, but England's coefficient will likely also be lower than it was last year. It was 84.410 last year, and right now it's 77.677. Currently there are 117 clubs with a higher coefficient than England's basic coefficient:

https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/trank2013.html

Also, last year was unusual, a lot of seeds fell in the qualifiers. Typically England's basic coefficient is only good enough for the bottom pot in the groups, and is much more likely to be that way next year.

Last year, this was your bottom 4 in Q4:

Racing Genk *3 Bel 16.480
Partizan Belgrade @3 Srb 14.350
Viktoria Plzen ** Cze 14.070
Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk Ukr 14.026

England is currently 15.535. England was 16.882 last year.

The bottom two could have been unseeded but two higher ranked teams went out in Q3. A lot of seeds went out in Q4. Even Dnipro at the bottom of that list got into Pot C.

I'll be keeping a close eye on it, like I did this year with Newcastle being there with no points and last year with Birmingham and Stoke being there with no points.

That year 15.850 was required to be seeded. England had 17.157.

I'd say it's on a knife edge right now and too early to make any predictions, it could go either way. England will either scrape into the seed pot or just miss it.

EDIT: Maybe I'm wrong about expect Pot D though, I don't know. Birmingham and Stoke comfortably made it in, and even one of the unseeded teams made it into Pot C that year. I guess plenty of seeds got KOd that year too in Q4.

The year before that all seeds got into Pot C as well, but the year before that 3 seeds were in Pot D. Fulham however, with only England's basic coefficient, scraped into Pot C as the last team.

EDIT 2: Also, the League Cup winner is rated over the FA Cup runner up. See 2 years ago when Stoke were in Q3 as FA Cup runner up, with Birmingham in Q4 as League Cup winner.

Author: JackB
Date: 24-01-2013, 14:15

Thanks for the info, that's great

.

I've been sort of following how this all works for a few years, but from a distance and not really expecting it to ever involved my team, so just trying to get my head around how exactly the seeding and stuff works!

I didn't realise that the LC winner was ranked higher than the cup runner-up. Guess that means I'll be hoping for a CL team to beat someone lower down in the final, then (assuming we win the LC, of course!). Would the situation change at all, if say Tottenham finish 4th and win the cup. Arsenal finish 6th and win the CL, meaning that Spurs miss out on the CL yet again. Would the cup runner up then not qualify for EL as Spurs aren't in the CL?

Author: AlanK
Date: 24-01-2013, 14:49

@JackB:

I'm now a fan of Swansea because of Michu, who moved from my team, Rayo Vallecano, to Swansea at the start of the season. What are your feelings about him in the EPL? I know he's had a lot of success scoring--as he did for us last season (top-scoring midfielder in Primera 2011-2012). Will you get to go to the Final? Signed, Green With Envy (if the answer is yes).

And super congratulations on eliminating Chelsea.

Author: Nixda
Date: 24-01-2013, 14:58

Priority (places used by teams AND when teams start in EL):

-CL
-cup winner
-league places
-possible leage cup winner
-possible cup runner-up

So if the cup winner cant go for the CLQ because already 4 others take CL group stage places. Then he will be using his cup winners place in group stage EL (only top3 can miss out CLQ due to 4 teams).

Cup runner-up only has a place if the cup winner either is playing CL/CLQ or is banned/has no licence for international games by UEFA.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 24-01-2013, 16:41

Would the situation change at all, if say Tottenham finish 4th and win the cup. Arsenal finish 6th and win the CL, meaning that Spurs miss out on the CL yet again. Would the cup runner up then not qualify for EL as Spurs aren't in the CL?

That is correct. The losing Cup finalist only qualifies for EL if the Cup winner qualifies for the CL. If Arsenal win the CL and ends 6th in the league, then the 4th in the league will not qualify for CL. If that team then wins the Cup they just take the Cup-EL-spot and the losing Cup finalists gets nothing (assuming they are not in the top 6 of the league).

Re: Swansea City: eligable for England in CL/EL?
Author: Deneverember Date: 27-01-2013, 19:54	To Bert What will happen if Swansea City will starting in the UEFA Europe League? Because Swansea City are exist in the club data base as it welsh club. Will you overwrite for english club? Or will you create an another Swansea City for England? https://kassiesa.net/uefa//clubs/

Re: Swansea City: eligable for England in CL/EL?
Author: bert.kassies Date: 28-01-2013, 08:10	They will be listed separately as playing for England. Just like many teams of the former Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, East Germany, and Czechoslovakia. And like Derry City for instance.

Re: Swansea City: eligable for England in CL/EL?
Author: gogu Date: 04-02-2013, 18:04	If Swansea qualifies, which players will be considered "locally trained"? The ones trained in English teams or in Welsh teams?

Re: Swansea City: eligable for England in CL/EL?
Author: Nixda Date: 04-02-2013, 18:09	The ones of the FA that send the team in its contigent -> in this case the English FA

Re: Swansea City: eligable for England in CL/EL?
Author: mjohnson1989 Date: 13-02-2013, 23:57	Hypothetical question- if Manchester United win the League and Cup double (we're certainly looking likely to win the league) and Swansea win the League Cup and finish sixth. How would that affect the qualification/entry rounds for the Europa League?

Re: Swansea City: eligable for England in CL/EL?
Author: JackB Date: 14-02-2013, 00:39	Cup runner up would get the final spot, if they're already in Europe it'd go to the seventh placed team. Swansea would start at playoff round either way I believe. Can't see us finishing any higher than where we are at the moment anyway, so it's not likely to occur.

Re: Swansea City: eligable for England in CL/EL?
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 14-02-2013, 09:06	If Manchester United win the league and the FA-cup and Swansea wins the League Cup and ends 6th, then the CL/EL spots are divided this way: CL-GS Manchester United CL-GS 2nd CL-GS 3rd CL-Q4 4th EL-GS 5th EL-Q4 Swansea EL-Q3 losing Cup finalist or 7th (when Cup finalist is in top 5)

Re: Swansea City: eligable for England in CL/EL?
Author: mjohnson1989 Date: 14-02-2013, 11:37	Thanks Jack and Forza

Re: Swansea City: eligable for England in CL/EL?
Author: JackB Date: 25-02-2013, 13:10	So, now that we've actually qualified, are we any closer to knowing if the base coefficient will be enough for us to be seeded in the playoff round? If it's not enough at the moment, what sort of performance will we need from the remaining teams this season in order to get enough points? Cheers in advance.

Re: Swansea City: eligable for England in CL/EL?
Author: AnelZ Date: 25-02-2013, 13:46	Just follow it here: https://skydrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=4FE4712A1E3EA4FA!125&app=Excel&authke y=!AAb2C_o0FkXQ7Ng You have good chances, you still are seeded in play-off and it's likely to stay so. Your coefficient will rise with every win of a team from England, although the rise is minor it is crucial.

Author: Lorric
Date: 25-02-2013, 14:18

Interesting. That 28th/31 seeds doesn't look very safe to me. There'll likely be some surprise KOs of higher seeded teams from the CL qualifying rounds, and the teams in the list will change as league positions and cup qualifiers change over the course of the season.

Right now, just root for all the English teams left in Europe. The better they perform, the better Swansea's chances of being seeded if they get to Q4.