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Author: simonk
Date: 19-09-2012, 18:19
Edited by: simonk
at: 19-09-2012, 18:22

According to the Europa & Champions League regulations, if teams finish level on points, the criteria are:

a) higher number of points obtained in the group matches played among the
teams in question;
b) superior goal difference from the group matches played among the teams
in question;
c) higher number of goals scored in the group matches played among the
teams in question;
d) higher number of goals scored away from home in the group matches
played among the teams in question;
e) if, after having applied criteria a) to d), two teams still have an equal
ranking, criteria a) to d) are reapplied exclusively to the matches between
the two teams in question to determine their final rankings. If this
procedure does not lead to a decision, criteria f) to h) apply;
f) superior goal difference from all group matches played;
g) higher number of goals scored from all group matches played;
h) higher number of coefficient points accumulated by the club in question,
as well as its association, over the previous five seasons

My question is whether criteria e) also applies if three teams are involved or does it ONLY apply if exactly two teams are involved?

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: Todor Date: 19-09-2012, 18:33	As there are only groups of four, the tie-breaker will be applied only when two or three teams are equal on points. Imagine we have three teams equal on points, then if after applying criteria a) thro d), they are still not separated, there will be no need to repeat them and the next criteria will have to be apllied.

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: simonk Date: 19-09-2012, 18:34	It's possible that all four teams are equal, too...

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: reisanibal Date: 19-09-2012, 18:40	"e) if, after having applied criteria a) to d), two teams still have an equal ranking, criteria a) to d) are reapplied exclusively to the matches between the two teams in question to determine their final rankings." What does that even mean? I mean, do the scores of the matches change? No. So why reapply at all?

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: simonk Date: 19-09-2012, 18:49	That's when three teams are tied and after a) - d) two teams remain tied.

Author: Todor
Date: 19-09-2012, 18:50

@raisanibal

Imagine that teams A, B and C all beat team D twice, then the results between them are as follows:

A:B 3:1 0:2
A:C 1:0 0:1
B:C 1:0 0:1

All three teams will have 12 pts. Then the mini-table with the results between them will be

1. A & B 4:4 6
3. C 2:2 6

C remain 3rd and a new minitable is done only between A & B, which will result in both teams having a GD of 3:3 and 3 points each,but B will win due to the away goal scored against A.

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: Todor Date: 19-09-2012, 18:54	@simonk I might be wrong, but I think that if all 4 teams are equal on points, and three of them have the same GD, then critirea a) to d) won't be able to seperate them.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 19-09-2012, 19:19
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 19-09-2012, 19:25

@Todor

It is possible. Lets take this example:

A-B 2-0
A-C 1-0
A-D 1-0
B-A 3-2
B-C 1-0
B-D 1-0
C-A 1-0
C-B 2-0
C-D 1-2
D-A 1-0
D-B 2-0
D-C 1-2

All teams have 9 points, so head-to-head has to decide which gives this table:

1.A 9 (6-5) 2 away goals
1.C 9 (6-5) 2 away goals
1.D 9 (6-5) 2 away goals
4.B 9 (5-8)

So B is 4th on goal difference, while A, C and D are equal.

If you make a new table of results of only A, C and D you get this:

1.C 6 (4-4) 2 away goals
1.D 6 (4-4) 2 away goals
3.A 6 (2-2)

So A is 3rd on goals scored, C and D are still equal.
Coefficient will decide if C or D is 1st (since total goal difference and goals scored are also equal)

But according to the regulations the "2nd head-to-head" is only used for 2 teams and not for 3, so then coefficient has to decide between A, C and D (since total goal difference and goals scored are also equal).

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: Todor Date: 19-09-2012, 19:23	So I'm wrong, and the original question is valid.

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 19-09-2012, 19:29	The regulations clearly mention "two teams". If it would also apply to 3 teams they would have mentioned "teams". Or UEFA hasn't considered the possibility of a situation like my example. I doubt we will ever know what will happen, as such a situation is almost impossible to happen (I already had to adjust all scores for some time to get to my example, lol).

Author: simonk
Date: 19-09-2012, 19:33
Edited by: simonk
at: 19-09-2012, 19:35

But the situation could happen - it's possible.

Example:

B-C 2:1
D-A 1:0

A-B 2:1
C-D 1:0

C-A 1:1
B-D 0:0

A-C 1:1
D-B 0:0

C-B 1:2
A-D 0:1

B-A 1:2
D-C 0:1

All teams have 8 Points. A, B and C have 6:6 goals, D has 2:2. A, B and C also have the same number of away goals (3) so that they are tied in points a) to d). If e) is applicable, a new table between A, B and C could be formed, where A would have 8 Points, B would have 6 points and C 2 points. But if e) wouldn't be applicable, the coefficient would decide the group.

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: nemesys Date: 19-09-2012, 23:45	@simonk, Forza-AZ Good call! The scenario you propose it is actually reasonably possible. I wonder as well how Uefa would interpret its own rules in such a case. Cheers! - nemesys

Author: antony
Date: 21-09-2012, 22:13

@forza AZ @todor @simonk Hi!Take a look at this case even if it is highly unlikely:what if after having applied criteria a) to g) 2 or 3 teams are still level.So it all comes down to criteria h)coefficient of the club,and if equality persists because 2 of the 3 teams or all of them have the same coefficient, is uefa going to take into consideration the coefficient of the recent season and then goes on till the less recent season and then if teams have the same coeffient after the 5 seasons the tie will finally be broken by the position in their league of the last season?If so,why uefa didn't specify this in the section of the rules regarding breaking the tie in the group stage,instead they did so in the section of the rules regarding breaking the tie to determine the seedings?Thanks

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 22-09-2012, 09:56

It is almost impossible for 2 teams in the same group to have the same coefficient.
Since for the draw the teams are divided into 4 pots, the only option where 2 teams with the same coefficient can be in different pots is when they are on the border of 2 pots. That will almost always mean they are from the same country, and so they can't be drawn into the same group.

In an extreme case where 2 teams from different countries have the same coefficient and are drawn into the same group, I'm not sure what the criteria will be if they end up equal. It would make sence the team from the higher Pot will be ranked higher, but nobody can say that for sure.

Author: antony
Date: 22-09-2012, 20:12

@forza AZ Hi!You are right,good explanation.Now i think we can say,if should this case happen between two teams with the same coefficient that are at the border of 2 pots,that 100% sure uefa will determine the final ranking of the group stage by pots.So the team with the higher pot will be the better team!I'm saying 100% sure just because if they didn't choose to apply this parameter,then the only parameter available to apply would be "drawing by lots" but this normally in the rules is written as last criteria!As uefa didn't write it,it means they are not going to take into consideration this criteria!Do you think i'm right?Thanks

Author: caravaj
Date: 23-09-2012, 23:23

@simonk and others fellows
"e) if, after having applied criteria a) to d), two teams still have an equal ranking, criteria a) to d) are reapplied exclusively to the matches between the two teams in question to determine their final rankings."
Just to complete the answers, if 4 teams have an equal number of points, after applying the criteria a) to d) it is mathematically impossible that 3 teams still have an equal ranking. Only 2 or 4 teams can have the same ranking.

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 24-09-2012, 10:35	@caravaj That is not true. You can see in the examples earlier in this topic (Forza-AZ Date: 19-09-2012, 19:19 & simonk Date: 19-09-2012, 19:33) that it is possible that 4 teams have the same number of points and after applying criteria a-d 3 of these 4 teams have an equal ranking.

Author: pacalt
Date: 24-09-2012, 16:32

I might ask question you might have replied before. I dont understand why football clubs who currently play Europa League dont get points for winning games. For example FC Viktoria Plzen beat FC Academica Coimbra but gained only 0.10 points so currently have 2.700 in total. I thought Viktoria Plzen would have had 4.700 thanks to this win. According to counts from previous seasons clubs attending Champions League as well as Europa League were automaticaly gaining two points as well. according to this counts only clubs attending Champions League gain point towards to their club coefficient. Are there any changes?

Author: Nixda
Date: 24-09-2012, 17:25

Clubs in EL GS get a minimum of 2 points for reaching the GS. But those points are not additional to the points for results in the group stage.

So either a team has less than 2 points via own results in GS, then they receive the minimum 2 points INSTEAD.

Or the team has at least the 2 points via own results and gets no additional Points.

In some rankings the minimum of 2 points is already added, so you will see "new" points in the EL GS only when they exceed the 2 point minimum.

Author: reisanibal
Date: 24-09-2012, 17:30

@ pacalt

I believe they gained no points at all, not even 0.1 points. And the reason for it is that every team in EL group stage has a minimum of 2 coefficient points. That's called the qualification point. And if a team gets points from matches by winning(2) or drawing(1), that much of points are subtracted from qualification point.

Plzen already had 2 coefficient points by just qualifying to EL GS. They won their first match which is worth 2 points. The previous 2 points are erased and the 2 points that they have now represent their win. And from now on, the points they'll gain will just be added to their coefficient points.

I hope I was clear enough.

Note: Coefficient-pointwise, it wouldn't make any difference if you finish your EL group with 0,1,2 or 3(1 win, not 3 draws) points. Because in each case, you'll get 2 coefficient points.

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: antony Date: 24-09-2012, 18:30	@forza AZ Hi!Can you answer my question of date 22/09/12 that maybe you didn't notice?Thank you so much

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 24-09-2012, 19:06	I didn't answer it because I already said about the same as you before. I think you are correct indeed. I however think we will never know for sure since this situation will not happen in real life.

Author: caravaj
Date: 24-09-2012, 20:07

@forza AZ & all fellows
e) if, after having applied criteria a) to d), two teams still have an equal ranking, criteria a) to d) are reapplied exclusively to the matches between the two teams in question to determine their final rankings. If this procedure does not lead to a decision, criteria f) to h) apply;
Sorry my fault. I was out of my mind. Now I've read the whole topic.
So this is a funny regulation.
In fact in my tables I have interpreted the point e) like that : "if, after having applied criteria a) to d), at least two teams still have an equal ranking, and so on...", so I have no excuses.

Author: pacalt
Date: 24-09-2012, 23:41

well, I got it but first of all.0.1 gained Plzen automatically as a part of national coefficient of Czech Rep. who represented in qualifications 4 teams and I understood that for reaching Europa League group stages, clubs gain two points plus 0.6 for effort of all clubs representing Czech Rep in qualifications. So I thought points earned in group stages will be added to those earned in qualifications same as clubs who reached group stages of Champions League who already got two points clearly counted after first games played last Tuesday and Wednesday. Europa League teams did not earned it but last year and years before they did get it.. I wonder wheather it is a change of rules.. Sorry to bother again. pacalt.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 25-09-2012, 09:58
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 25-09-2012, 10:08

@pascalt

There is no change in the rules compared to last years.

There is just a difference between CL and EL:
-In CLGS teams get 4 bonuspoints
-In ELGS teams get no bonuspoints, but are assured of at least 2 points to make sure they get more points then teams eliminated in EL-Q4 (which get 1,5 points)

So in the rankings on this site at the start of EL-GS each team starts with these 2 points. The number of points will only increase when they have collected more then 2 points in their 6 matches.

Your example concerning Viktoria Plzen:
At the start of the EL-GS the Czech clubs collected 12 points (10 wins + 4 draws), which gives a countrycoefficient of 3,000. 20% of this is included in the clubcoefficient, so Viktoria Plzen had 2,600 (2 points for being in ELGS + 0,600 from the countrycoefficient).

In EL-GS matchday 1 Viktoria Plzen won and Sparta Praha lost. So the Czech clubs collected 2 points (which gives 0,100 for all Czech clubs coefficient). The 2 points Viktoria Plzen collected for their own coefficient replace the 2 points for reaching the EL-GS (since these are not fixed but are just a minimum guarentee).

So that is why Viktoria Plzen has 2,700 points right now.

Each draw or win Viktoria Plzen achieves from now on will increase their number of points.

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: pacalt Date: 25-09-2012, 12:39	to Forza - thanks for your reply.. I understand it now.

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 25-09-2012, 15:38
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 25-09-2012, 15:43

After all a team that qualifies to the EL GS gets bonus points (2 points to make sure they get more points then teams eliminated in EL-Q4, which get 1,5 points)? I thought they didn't get none... The teams that were eliminated in the EL QR4 also get points (1,5 points)? Could you tell me the other situations left (if teams eliminated in EL QR1, QR2 and QR3 also get bonus points and more situations, if they exist)?

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 25-09-2012, 16:08

In the QR's teams don't get points for their own coefficient with wins or draws.
Instead teams get bonuspoints for the round they are eliminated in:

CL-Q1: 0,5
CL-Q2: 1
EL-Q1: 0,25
EL-Q2: 0,5
EL-Q3: 1
EL-Q4: 1,5
EL-GS: guarenteed 2 points. these 2 points are erased when the team gets enough points with their results in the 6 matches.

PS: No points for CL-Q3 and CL-Q4 since these teams move on to EL.

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 25-09-2012, 16:43 Edited by: UploaderAfonso at: 25-09-2012, 16:43	So a team gets 2 bonus points for going to the EL GS? When you say enough points, you mean get more points than those points they got?

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 25-09-2012, 17:02

Teams get 2 points for a win and 1 for a draw in the EL-GS (and further rounds). Teams that collect less then 2 points in their 6 GS-matches will get bonuspoints to make sure they have a total of 2 points.

So that means:
-teams that lose 6 matches get 2 bonuspoints
-teams that draw 1 match and lose 5 matches get 1 bonuspoint
-teams that win at least 1 match or draw at least 2 matches get no bonuspoints

This all is just to make sure that teams in EL-GS will always have more points then teams that were eliminated in EL-Q4.

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 25-09-2012, 17:22
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 25-09-2012, 19:23

Ah, ok! I didn't know that teams could get bonus points for making few points or by being eliminated in the EL QR1, QR2, QR3 and QR4 and in the CL QR1 and QR2, and by making less than 2 points in the GS! Are there more situations in which teams get bonus points (i.e., not counting with the bonus points won after getting to the next stage, and the bonus points won by making few points in the QRs and GS)?

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: reisanibal Date: 25-09-2012, 18:48 Edited by: reisanibal at: 25-09-2012, 18:49	Pointwise, there has to be a difference between the teams that participate in European competitions and those that don't, right? Even if you are eliminated in the first qualifying round without even drawing a match, you still get points. And I believe all the situations regarding bonus points are mentioned above. There is no other situation.

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 25-09-2012, 18:52 Edited by: UploaderAfonso at: 25-09-2012, 19:16	Right. Ok. Thank you!

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 25-09-2012, 19:11 Edited by: Forza-AZ at: 25-09-2012, 19:14	I already listed all bonus points for QR's. In the rest of the tournament there are bonuspoints for reaching: CL GS: 4 CL 1/8: 5 CL and EL QF: 1 CL and EL SF: 1 CL and EL final: 1 By the way, you can also read all this info somewhere on the site

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 25-09-2012, 19:16
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 26-09-2012, 02:28

The teams that lose 6 matches get 2 bonus points and the teams that draw 1 match and lose 5 matches get 1 bonus point.

Why is there a difference in terms of bonus points received between these teams who had less than 2 points in the EL GS (0 points and 1 point, respectively)? Is it because one had only losses and the other had a draw and 5 losses? The first teams gets 0 point + 2 bonus points and the second 1 point + 1 bonus point, so both teams end with 2 points, right?

In the QR's teams don't get points for their own coefficient with wins or draws.

I thought that in the QRs a team won 1 point for a victory, 0,5 points for a draw and 0 points for a loss...

-teams that win at least 1 match or draw at least 2 matches get no bonuspoints

What the teams that draw two matches and lose all the others? And the teams that win one match, draw another and lose the others or the teams that draw three matches and lose the others?

In the rest of the tournament there are bonuspoints for reaching:
CL GS: 4
CL 1/8: 5
CL and EL QF: 1
CL and EL SF: 1
CL and EL final: 1

I already knew that, I just didn't know a team could get bonus points by being eliminated in the EL QR1, QR2, QR3 and QR4 and in the CL QR1 and QR2, and by making less than 2 points in the GS!

Another question: the points won by the teams go to the country ranking or to the team ranking?

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: bert.kassies Date: 25-09-2012, 21:52	uploader, for all answers see UEFA Coefficients calculation method.

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 25-09-2012, 22:10	I already saw it and my questions weren't answered...

Author: Overgame
Date: 26-09-2012, 01:28

Ok.

A team doesn't get points for their OWN coefficient during the qRounds. The points only count or the country ranking (in fact, the team are getting a small contribution, but not directly so let's forget about this). The point was to prevent teams to get a "good" seeding even if they're eliminated early. A team winning 8 games during the qRounds and losing 6 in the CLGS shouldn't get more points that a team directly qualified for the CLGS, ending 3rd with 2wins 2draws and eliminated in the ELR32.

When the EL and the new format of CL were introduced, UEFA had to put 4 rounds of qualificaton. They decided that a team kicked in the last round should be rewarded a bit more that the teams kicked in the previous round, so they decided to award points.

But then comes the ELGS. Awarding 2 points AND 6 more games was too much, especially when you compare the teams involved in CL. They could give more bonus points for reaching the CLGS, but they also don't want to penalise too much a team who isn't competing in europe for one year.

So, they decided to award 2 ponts for reaching the ELGS BUT those points are deducted from your points scored during the 6 games.

So, if you get X wins and Y draws in the ELGS, you'll get the maximum of (2X+Y,2). If you get 1 win 0 draw, 0 win 2 draws,0 win 1 draw or 0 win 0 draw, you'll get 2 points. If you get more than 1 win or 2 draws, you don't get any bonus points.

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 26-09-2012, 02:29 Edited by: UploaderAfonso at: 26-09-2012, 02:34	So, only the teams that make more than 2 points in the EL GS don't receive 2 bonus points? At which stages the points (and the bonus points) go to the country ranking and/or to the team ranking?

Author: SirHenri
Date: 26-09-2012, 10:19
Edited by: SirHenri
at: 26-09-2012, 10:30

1st question :
Teams with 0 points after EL-Groupstage receive 2 bonus points
Teams with 1 point after EL-Groupstage receive 1 bonus point
Teams with 2 or more points after EL-Groupstage receive no bonus points

2nd question :
Those 1 or 2 bonuspoints are NOT for the country ranking, ONLY for the team itself !!!
The teams receive them (at Berts page https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/trank2013.html ) right after entering the Group Stage (as they are assured), but to be exactly they would get it after elemination (in EL-Group Stage).
Like any other team which was eleminated in the qualifiers receive their 0.25 / 0.5 / 1 / 1.5 points after elemination.

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: Overgame Date: 26-09-2012, 10:37	Easy : Every single point goes to the country ranking. Only bonus points and points earned after the qRounds are going to the team ranking.

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 26-09-2012, 10:51	Points counting for country ranking: -Match results in QR (1 for win, 0,5 for draw) -Match results in GS and further (2 for win, 1 for draw) -Bonuspoints in CLGS and further and EL-QF and further Points counting for club coefficient: -Bonuspoints in QR and ELGS -Match results in GS and further (2 for win, 1 for draw) -Bonuspoints in CLGS and further and EL-QF and further

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 26-09-2012, 15:43 Edited by: UploaderAfonso at: 26-09-2012, 16:42	So the points and bonus points earned after the QRs go to the team ranking and to the country ranking?

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 26-09-2012, 16:37	That is correct.

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 26-09-2012, 16:43	When you talk about points, you are referring to the uefa ranking points, not to the GS points, right?

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 26-09-2012, 17:06	Ranking points indeed (so 2 for a win).

Re: Europa & Champions League question
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 26-09-2012, 17:08	Ok, thank you!