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| Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: bollie76
Date: 01-09-2012, 11:51 | I was watching the CL draw. And I'm almost sure that UEFA made a mistake during the draw. See for example this youtube movie. Go to 5:10 minutes, when Chelsea is drawn. In your screen you see that groups B, E and H are available to Chelsea. Then the presenter says: "...can go into group B or group E" Chelsea is drawn in group E, and only 1 ball is left in the drawing-bowl. (See at 5:35 minutes). At that moment of the draw 1) No English team was drawn. 2) B, E, H were the groups in wich no pot 1 team were drawn. So regardless of pairings, all 3 groups were open (as the computer told us), and only 2 balls were used..... |
| Re: Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: bert.kassies
Date: 01-09-2012, 12:14 | Nice observation, bollie76. It seems a clear mistake to me. Although not with much consequences for the groups. I always find this draw of pot 1 teams a bit useless. I think nobody would care much if UEFA would computer generate the distribution of pot 1 teams. But on the other hand, on this forum we always call for more transparent draws  |
| Re: Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: reisanibal
Date: 01-09-2012, 13:13 | Yes, very nice observation indeed. I also think it is a clear mistake. But the reason for it might have something to do with the software UEFA uses. As we have seen in EL drawings, a drawn team goes directly into the first available group. Maybe, that was the case for Chelsea too. We know that Chelsea and Arsenal, being two London teams, have to be separated into red and blue groups. When Chelsea was drawn, the only available red group was Group B and the first available blue group was Group E. According to this logic, Group H was not available for Chelsea. But one can also say that according to this logic, the first drawn team, which was Real Madrid, can only go to the groups A or E. Well, maybe it was just a human mistake  |
| Re: Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: Jakov
Date: 01-09-2012, 13:46 | Good observation but I agree with reisanibal. I think only avaible grops for Chelse are E and H. That is why there are only 2 balls avaible. I think computer made mistake showing group B. Because. Lets assume that Chelese got group B. Where would Arsenal go then? Another thing I do not understand is Spain. They have 4 clubs from different cities. Why they have to seperate Barcelona and Real from playing on same day? I wuold let draw decide. And if they get into same colour-group I would put Valencia and Malaga in different colour-group. Best regards, Jakov |
| Re: Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: Judio1999
Date: 01-09-2012, 14:22 | There was no mistake with the balls just the computer graphic The TV Pairings were Barca and Real Chelsea and Arsenal The Spanish TV will want to show Barca 3 times and Real 3 times That is why they are paired with each other |
| Re: Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: tjeerdk
Date: 01-09-2012, 14:48 | well... let's say that chelsea would draw B then United and Arsenal go to E / H and from pot 2... City to A, C or D i do not see a reason why this can not be like this (unless chelsea would have been paired with city (no way.. because united and city are from the same city, and so are paired (just as chelsea - Arsenal) ) |
| Re: Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: Lorric
Date: 01-09-2012, 16:08 | @ Bert Yes, no to computer. Computers can easily be programmed for a rigged draw. As for the draw taking too much time, that's the fault of people watching the draw. Just go off and do something else and come back when it's finished! Me, I don't mind the length of the draws. I have a thing about draws, I love them. I love drawing things as well. It would however be nice if the people doing the draw showed some more enthusiasm, instead of announcing the teams in momotone voices. It also annoys me when they get some feeble old man to do it who can't get the balls open. It's not the fact they can't get the balls open, but they must rehearse these things. Surely they could have someone there to hand the balls off to to get them open quickly instead of having to watch that man struggle with each and every one. |
| Re: Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 01-09-2012, 17:17 | So before Chelsea was drawn we have this: B, E and H still open Chelsea, Arsenal and Manchester United still to be drawn Chelsea and Arsenal coupled, Manchester United coupled with Manchester City -Chelsea is drawn -If Chelsea was put in B, then Arsenal and Manchester United could still be put in E and H or vice versa, and ManCity in A, C or D --> so B is possible for Chelsea -If Chelsea was put in E, then Arsenal would automatically be put in B and Manchester United in H, and ManCity in A, C or D --> so E is possible for Chelsea -If Chelsea was put in H, then Arsenal would automatically be put in B and ManUnited in E, and ManCity in A, C or D --> so H is possible for Chelsea So the screen shows correctly that Chelsea has 3 options. but only 2 balls are in the bowl and the commentator says only B and E are available for Chelsea. That means if that is true H is already reserved for ManUnited. It is clear that ManUnited has to be in a blue group, since Arsenal and Chelsea are coupled and only 1 red group is open. But I can't see any reason why ManUnited can't be in E? So it must be a mistake of the people who perform the draw. However it only concerned the group names here, and not the opponents, so no harm done. |
| Re: Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: amirbachar
Date: 01-09-2012, 19:09 | It chnaged the odds that Chelsea would be in the Red/Blue groups, so it did influence the odds for the rest of the draw as well. |
| Re: Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: simonk
Date: 01-09-2012, 19:23 Edited by: simonk at: 01-09-2012, 19:30 | I watched it myself and yes there was a litte mistake but because it was the first pot and it doesn't matter whether you are in Group E or H (both are blue) there was no impact. But if he would have drawn B, it would have been a big difference for the rest of the draw, the probability of a red group was 1/2 instead of 1/3. Well, maybe they changed the format for the Europa League draw because of this mistake so that such a mistake couldn't happen again ;-) |
| Re: Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: bert.kassies
Date: 01-09-2012, 20:47 | @Lorric, I said it wouldn't bother me if a computer was used for the draw of POT1 CLUBS ONLY. Not for the other three pots of course. I didn't mention it because the draw takes too much time, but only because I think it's rather pointless. But it's only a small thing, not important at all. |
| Re: Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: simonk
Date: 01-09-2012, 21:15 | I think the draw of the first pot istn't pointless at all: After the draw of the first pot for many teams only 4 possible groups are left. |
| Re: Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: Judio1999
Date: 02-09-2012, 12:48 | No Difference between E and H ?? Look who ended up in those groups and I think Man United have by far the easier draw !!! If Chelsea had been put in H the Pots 2 to 4 would have had no changes so they could have ended up with the easy draw So yes there IS a difference between E and H |
| Re: Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: reisanibal
Date: 02-09-2012, 14:01 | @Judio1999 You can't make such a conslusion. EVERYTHING could have changed, if Chelsea had gone to Group H. A speech like "Oh, Chelsea, the reigning champions goes to last group, hehe." and there you have it. The draw of the other teams are delayed for 1-2 seconds. Not to mention the psychological states of everybody effecting the draw are changed. Therefore we would have completely different groups. |
| Re: Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: scapulaire24
Date: 02-09-2012, 18:21 | It would change only the groups of Chelsea, Man. Utd and Arsenal. Other groups are not impacted. Pot 2, 3 & 4 goes to the same place. Now, just for fun I did the groups with teams drawn in the same order but without drawing groups : The 1st team drawn go into the 1st available group (according to pairing) like they did for Europa League. Here is the result : A Real Madrid Shakhtar Donetsk Galatasaray Celtic B Bayern München Valencia Lille OSC Dinamo Zagreb C FC Porto Manchester City Juventus Montpellier D Chelsea Sporting Braga Spartak Moscow Málaga CF E FC Barcelona Benfica Olympiakos Piraeus FC Nordsjælland F AC Milan Schalke 04 Anderlecht BATE Borisov G Manchester United Dinamo Kiev Paris Saint-Germain CFR Cluj H Arsenal Zenit St. Petersburg Ajax Borussia Dortmund |
| Re: Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: amirbachar
Date: 02-09-2012, 19:50 | Oh, I guess since Chelsea was drawn to the same half of the schedule ass group H, the mistake didn't influence the draw after all... |
| Re: Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 02-09-2012, 22:01 | @Judio1999 Of course there is a difference after the complete draw between groups E and H. What we mean here is the difference between groups E and H after only Pot 1 teams are drawn. Then the only difference is the name of the group. |
| Re: Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: bollie76
Date: 02-09-2012, 23:06 Edited by: bollie76 at: 02-09-2012, 23:15 | I have two remarks. 1) I fully agree that the effects of the error were minor. But the error did influence the draw. Just 1 example: At that point Porto was drawn into a red group. Porto was paired with Benfica, so at that point it was 100% sure that Benfica would go into a blue group. At that point of the draw, the error changed the propability that Chelsea would go into a blue group from 66.67% into ...% (depending on the unknown ball). So if the unknown ball was a "B", then the error made it less likely that Chelsea and Banfica would meet. And if it was an "H", the odds increased due to the error. Conclusion: the error changed the odds of Benfica and Chelsea being drawn in the same group. Minor, but very clearly present. 2) More fundamental on the drawing system and performence. People tend to make more mistakes when things get difficult. But mistakes are more likely to be observed when things are easy. So: can we have confidence that there were will be no error when next year the second team from pot 3 will be placed into a group? |
| Re: Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: bert.kassies
Date: 03-09-2012, 11:13 | @bollie76 Good example. It shows clearly that the influence of the mistake was bigger then it appeared to me in first instance. And your general remark is also true. There are so many constraints (mainly due to commercial reasons) that we need a computer to assist the draw. One step more complexity in the constraints and then only a computer can solve the system of equations (or find an approximate solution in an overdetermined system of equations  ) |
| Re: Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: pit
Date: 04-09-2012, 14:02 | Well, after carefully watching the draw it seems that the computer generated “available” groups were correct for all teams, incl. for Chelsea. From the way how the available groups were calculated I would draw the conclusion about the following paired teams: Chelsea – Arsenal Man. United – Man. City Barcelona – Real Madrid Valencia – Malaga Bayern – Dortmund Porto – Benfica Milan – Juventus Shakhtar Donetsk – Dynamo Kyiv Zenit – Spartak Moskva PSG – Lille As it is discussed above, obviously there is a mistake in drawing the group letter for Chelsea (two balls in the bowl while the avaivlabe groups were B EH). |
| Re: Mistake during CL draw ? | |
| Author: bollie76
Date: 04-09-2012, 21:27 | @pit Actually I found this error when I was studying the draw to find out what the pairings were. I found the same pairings as you did. Actually they were all quite easy to find this year. |