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| Seeding question | |
| Author: ngfsmg
Date: 27-05-2012, 23:47 | If the "surprises" (seeded teams being eliminated) result in Málaga and Levante being the first team of pot 4 and the last team of pot 3 in EL, which one would be at which pot? Neither of them have been in Europe at last 5 years, so both have only country part... |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: nemesys
Date: 28-05-2012, 01:17 Edited by: nemesys at: 28-05-2012, 01:23 | I believe 2 clubs from the same country cannot face each-other in QRs or GS, but I might be wrong. Cheers!  - nemesys Edit: sorry, I misunderstood your question. My bad, Good question and I personally have no answers, so I wonder as well if someone knows it for sure. Edit 2: My guess is Malaga in Pot 3 and Levante in Pot 4, since Malaga finishing 4th in La Liga. But this is just a personal guess, I truly don't know. |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: biagio
Date: 28-05-2012, 03:41 | malaga would be ahead, because they qualified ahead of levante. last time something like that happened was last season. croatian teams cibalia and sibenik in elq2 with same (basic) coefficient. cibalia was last of seeded and sibenik first of non-seeded because cibalia finished the league(and qualified) ahead of sibenik. |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: nemesys
Date: 28-05-2012, 11:27 | @biagio Thanks. So my guess was correct. Cheers! - nemesys |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 28-05-2012, 11:34 | That is correct. If teams have the same coefficient then first the coefficient of the most recent year will count, then that of the year before etc. If all 5 years are equal then the team that qualified in a better position will be first (first the CL teams, then the CW and then the other EL-teams). So Malaga will be ahead of Levante. |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: executor
Date: 28-05-2012, 12:32 | @Forza-AZ I think the rule of checking the most recent coefficient is only used for teams from different countries. If the 2 are from the same association it should only matter the position in which they finished. |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: bert.kassies
Date: 28-05-2012, 13:20 | The regulations say in Annex 2.8 "In the case of equal coefficients, the UEFA administration takes a final decision on the order of the rankings, taking into consideration the individual coefficients of the most recent season". The rules mention only the use of the most recent season and there is no restriction to teams from different associations. Though many times equal coefficients of teams from the same association is due to both teams having no individual point. In that case the last season won't be decisive. |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: executor
Date: 28-05-2012, 14:39 | So, if the CW and EL3 from the same country have the same coefficient (different from the country coefficient), but the EL3 team has more points in the most recent season, it will be seeded above the CW? This sounds too weird. For teams from different countries there's no direct mean of separating them, so UEFA thought of the most recent season in EuroCups. It's OK. But if the teams in question are from the same association, wouldn't it be more plausible to use the direct mean (i.e. ranking in domestic championship) to break the tie? CWs, for instance, should win any tie with other EL teams from the same association. |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: Suarez16
Date: 28-05-2012, 15:07 | @Bert And what if 2 teams from 2 different associations have equal coefficients in all five years? (Obviously, this is highly unlikely) Is is then a coinflip or are there some other opt-outs? |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 28-05-2012, 16:42 Edited by: Forza-AZ at: 28-05-2012, 16:49 | @executor It's not only for teams from different countries. For instance this season Borussia Dortmund and Hannover have the same coefficient. Allthough they can't end up in the same draw, if they would Hannover would be seeded higher since they got more points in 2011/12, and not Borussia Dortmund allthough they finished higher in the German league. I don't see why it is weird. For draws teams are seeded according to coefficient. The way they qualified for that round doesn't matter, so why use their method of qualifying instead of their ranking (of the most recent season). @Suarez16 If 2 teams have exactly the same coefficient and are from different countries I think still the spot they qualified in will decide. So if 1 of them is a CW and the other isn't, then the CW will be seeded higher. If they both have ended up on exactly the same spot in their national leagues, then they are seeded equally. No idea what will happen then if 1 of these teams should be seeded and the other unseeded. But the chance that this would happen is almost 0, since it is already highly unlikely that 2 countries have the same coefficient for 5 years after each other. And even if they do, then these 2 teams probably will both be seeded or unseeded. |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: ngfsmg
Date: 28-05-2012, 17:28 | Thanks to all of you for the answers! @Suarez16 FC Beroe Stara Zagora (Bul) has the same points as 3 teams from Serbia. It could happen. |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: bert.kassies
Date: 28-05-2012, 18:16 | Well, if all things are equal then "UEFA administration takes a final decision", and I don't think they will tell how they did it. Since the time they made an error by putting Varteks Varzdin in the unseeded group and just said sorry after the draw, everything is possible  For those who like history see UEFA apologized to Croatian side Varteks . |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: biagio
Date: 28-05-2012, 18:31 | @ngfsmg while it's true that bulgarian and serbian teams hame the same basic coefficient, they don't have the same coefficient in all previous 5 years, like Suarez16 said. so serbian teams will be ahead because serbia did better in the most recent season. @Suarez16 i think the possibility for that to happen is one in a million. |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: jaysea67
Date: 28-05-2012, 18:40 Edited by: jaysea67 at: 28-05-2012, 18:44 | There are actually quite a few instances of teams from different countries with the same coefficient (but not the same in every year) where the coefficient is low (below 2.5), but with very low coefficients both teams would be likely to be unseeded. The highest shared coefficient I can see is 5.233 - Dinamo Tbilisi (Geo) and Jagiellonia Bialystok (Pol). The highest shared coefficient where teams have qualified for next season's European competition is 2.85 - FK Jagodina (Srb) ELQ1 and Lokomotiv Plovdiv (Bul) ELQ2. |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: ngfsmg
Date: 28-05-2012, 19:22 Edited by: ngfsmg at: 28-05-2012, 19:44 | @biagio My fault, didn't read his post correctly .Edit: You are saying it is very unlikely 2 teams having the same points in all the last 5 years, but if for example 2 more countries become members (and some countries have become members in last years), their teams will have the same points (0). |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: nemesys
Date: 28-05-2012, 21:14 Edited by: nemesys at: 28-05-2012, 21:18 | @ngfsmg If I understand your post correctly, I believe in that case (both clubs with 0 points) they would both be unseeded (if in QRs draws) or in Pot 4 (if in GS draws); I see no ways, with "only" 0 points, to be Seeded (instead of Unseeded) or in Pot 3 (instead of Pot 4). I guess in both cases (QRs or GS draws) this would require having way too many clubs with 0 points! If I misunderstood your point, I apologize. Cheers! - nemesys Edit: minor corrections. |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: Suarez16
Date: 28-05-2012, 21:43 | @All I'm aware that it is a very unlikely scenario, but still, it COULD happen. I just wondered whether the regulations are of such detail to have covered a scenario like this. When looking at your answers this doesn't seem to be the case. Berts quote of 'UEFA administration takes a final decision' is probably the best we can get. I doubt whether this scenario has happened before, so we cannot rely on earlier decisions. |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: ngfsmg
Date: 28-05-2012, 22:46 | @nemesys Not in GS, but in qualifyers. With just 4 teams (most of the times) at Q1 in CL, how can we say it can't happen? |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: nemesys
Date: 28-05-2012, 22:58 Edited by: nemesys at: 28-05-2012, 23:30 | @ngfsmg Uhm... don't you need at least 3 new members in the same season for this scenario you are proposing to happen? (I mean, 2 unseeded and 1 seeded?) If I misunderstand you point, again, I apologize. From what I can tell, as you correctly say, in theory it could be missing a sub-ranking of the clubs with 0 point in Uefa Ranking, but in real circumstances this will never be a potential issue for the seeding. However, I might be wrong. @Suarez16 About any Uefa ranking issue, I consider Bert opinion extremely likely to be the closest to truth you can get. Cheers! - nemesys ps: very sad day for sport in Italy... and this from someone who never bought pay-tv contracts, and since even before 2006 stopped following Serie A with interest and confidence in fairness, stopped watching matches in Italian stadiums, and stopped supporting Italian NT; this scandal is the worst in my opinion, for many reasons. A country of great football culture, but mostly in the hands of (or managed by) people who don't deserve to be protagonist of it. End OT. |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 29-05-2012, 10:26 | @ngfsmg You need at least 3 new members to have 3 teams with 0 points. But with 3 new members there won't be just 4 teams in CL-Q1 but 10 (assuming all other members stay in UEFA), since you have more champions. So you need more CL-Q1 matches. |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: ngfsmg
Date: 30-05-2012, 16:08 Edited by: ngfsmg at: 30-05-2012, 16:09 | @nemesys It's not just theory 3 countries with 0 points in the country ranking, it has already happened at least once with San Marino, Andorra and Montenegro in 2007/08. But then there was no qualifying round with just 4 teams, but if it happens again, I would like to see what would UEFA do. @ForzaAZ Why 10 teams? |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: Lorric
Date: 30-05-2012, 16:18 Edited by: Lorric at: 30-05-2012, 16:19 | It's nearly impossible though. You would need the CL TH spot used every 5 years, 3 contries to score 0 points 5 years straight and then a 4 team Q1 with teams with no (or the same) points due to points awarded for qualifying for Europe to get it. Otherwise, one of the three nations would have to score points in a 4 team Q1 situation, as they'd be 3 of the 4, one of them would advance at least. |
| Re: Seeding question | |
| Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 30-05-2012, 16:37 | @ngfsmg It will be 10 teams in CL-Q1 because when you have 3 new members you will have 55 champions in CL (where there are 52 now). If you assume still 13 champions start in CL-GS and 3 in CL-Q3, you have 39 champions left for 17 spots in CL-Q3. So that means there will be 17 matches in CL-Q2 (34 teams), and 5 teams will have to be eliminated already in CL-Q1. So 10 teams will have to start in CL-Q1. And with "just" 3 teams with a coefficient of 0,000, all of them will be unseeded. |