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Ultimate Group of Death is Possible
Author: Lorric Date: 15-05-2012, 14:01 Edited by: Lorric at: 15-05-2012, 14:04	Pot A - Real Madrid Pot B - Manchester City Pot C - Juventus Pot D - Dortmund Champions of Spain vs. Champions of England vs. Champions of Italy vs. Champions of Germany. EDIT: I would love to see it. Now that right there would be a REAL Champions League!

Re: Ultimate Group of Death is Possible
Author: mavano Date: 15-05-2012, 14:44 Edited by: mavano at: 15-05-2012, 14:47	That would make a perfect group A. Let's go vintage 1992 CL style and add countries 5 to 8: Pot A Porto Pot B Zenit Pot C Ajax Pot D Montpellier Just ditch the other 24...

Re: Ultimate Group of Death is Possible
Author: Lorric Date: 15-05-2012, 16:04 Edited by: Lorric at: 15-05-2012, 16:04	Ha ha ha. That would be perfect, wouldn't it. Make sure they are Group A and Group B. More champions: Group C Chelsea/Bayern (Champions of Europe) Shakhtar Donetsk (Champions of Ukraine, 9th) Olympiakos (Champions of Greece, 10th) Galatasaray (Champions of Turkey, 11th) Galatasaray are currently between pots. But Pot D looks likely.

Re: Ultimate Group of Death is Possible
Author: Malko Date: 15-05-2012, 20:57	and this shows again...that all this seeding is nonsense. We see it again and again......

Re: Ultimate Group of Death is Possible
Author: biagio Date: 15-05-2012, 22:56	Lorric wrote : Pot A - Real Madrid Pot B - Manchester City Pot C - Juventus Pot D - Dortmund i love it! simply love it! i wish it will be juve's group. a friendly reminder to everybody : (juventus coach words) "juve was hungry and we are still hungry..."

Re: Ultimate Group of Death is Possible
Author: flob Date: 15-05-2012, 23:24	@Malko: 'and this shows again...that all this seeding is nonsense.' Interesting, I thought you would have liked this seeding. Pot A - Real Madrid Pot B - Manchester City Pot C - Juventus Pot D - Dortmund We have Dortmund in pot 4, I'm quite sure you support that. Which of the other seedings you don't like and why?

Re: Ultimate Group of Death is Possible
Author: FrancoisD Date: 16-05-2012, 11:08	Any grouping possible with a seeding system is also possible with full random grouping, so there is really zero argument against seeding when "death group" happen. There is only argument against point allocation (5 year period, % of country points, etc).

Author: Lorric
Date: 16-05-2012, 14:52
Edited by: Lorric
at: 16-05-2012, 15:00

@ Biagio

I'm wary of the undefeated Juventus. That lends itself very well to KO competition. No 3pts for a win there, I see they got a lot of draws. I'll be keeping an eye on them.

@ Flob

I bet Malko's looking at Montpellier in Pot D and doesn't like that.

As for the seedings, they're quite deserved. Real Madrid, CL KO stage every year, 2 semis. Pot 2, Manchester City, probably Pot C standard normally, but with a surprising number of high coefficients not involved this year, they've moved up on two Last 16s and a QF in the Europa League. Juventus haven't been in Europe for a bit, and haven't done much when they have been. But at least they have experienced KO football, Dortmund haven't been able to get to any KO stage in 3 tries.

Author: nemesys
Date: 16-05-2012, 16:25

@Lorric

Of course you are correct. And it is quite straight forward: Uefa coefficient reflects the last season results in Uefa Competitions, hence the seeding, for the clubs participating to the last seasons Uefa competitions, always make sense under this point of view. You could maybe have few exceptions with clubs not qualifying recently, but usually they go where they (result wise) deserve to anyways.

---

OT replying @FrancoisD: On the % of country coefficient, I believe dropping to 20% was a wise choice: over that % was probably a bit too much big leagues friendly; and 5 seasons is another safe choice if you ask me. But this is of course arguable by someone else, no needs to share my same opinion, I could be wrong.

---

Cheers!

- nemesys

Re: Ultimate Group of Death is Possible
Author: adrian Date: 16-05-2012, 16:49	I think generally there should be a 2-year-ranking for seedings. That would much more represent the real strength of a team and is the least of what time it takes to keep up this system of calculating. Modern football is a business that is changing very fast, faster than any 5-year-stadium. Apart from that I don't think that this would change much about the "grpup of death" like above, right?

Re: Ultimate Group of Death is Possible
Author: spoonman Date: 16-05-2012, 17:00	https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/trank2015.html It would be interesting to calculate the allocation of CL pots on the basis of a two-year-ranking. Would Dortmund be in pot 4? Personally, I think that 2 years wouldn't be enough. Maybe three years. Or a weighted 5-year-ranking where the most recent results are multiplied by 5 and the oldest results by 1.

Re: Ultimate Group of Death is Possible
Author: ferdi Date: 16-05-2012, 17:56	I don't see that seeding is according to "real strength" anyway. The real strength will only show during the competition. It's more about current standing.

Author: Lorric
Date: 16-05-2012, 19:14
Edited by: Lorric
at: 16-05-2012, 19:20

@ Adrian

That would be absurd. A good team could lose a couple of qualifiers and be in the bottom pot. A great team could end up in the bottom pot after going through a period of transition. And people would be bitching this season about Basel being in Pot B and Benfica in Pot A. Dortmund and Montpellier would still be in Pot D, only Juventus would be joining them.

Oh, Schalke would be in Pot A off their CL semi and Europa run this year.

A team with a couple of good Europa runs could step straight into CL pot A.

No, 5 years is right for me. I could entertain the idea of a sliding scale with older results getting less valuable though.

But I like teams being rewarded for achievements in the long term. Underdogs start at the bottom of the pile, but a team like APOEL, one great run, and they're set for the next 5 years.

Re: Ultimate Group of Death is Possible
Author: adrian Date: 16-05-2012, 23:58	That is true but how to define a "good" team? I wouldn't say that a team that played well in the 3 years before the last two years is a good team now. Teams like APOEL need to have the chance to establish in higher pots beating 4 teams from higher pots, everything else is UEFA-elitarism supporting the teams that guarantee more revenues...

Author: Lorric
Date: 17-05-2012, 02:39

Think of it as a prize to be won. To be cashed in for seedings. I think of coefficient points as prizes rather than a measure of strength. They still usually do a good job of measuring strength though. But I like the system. Much rather have a solid system that can't be manipulated than people picking who gets to be seeded.

So we get teams like Dortmund in the bottom pot where they belong until they prove otherwise.