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Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 11-05-2012, 16:16
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 11-05-2012, 16:57

1 - Can the runners-up of the Portuguese Cup go to the Europa League, and if they can, at what phase? Does the phase which they will go is determined by the UEFA Ranking?

2 - There are countries that have a League Cup (not to confuse with the Domestic Cup) and there are others that haven't. Why is that?

3 - Why does the winner of the French League Cup go to the Europa League (don't know the phase) and the winner of the Portuguese League Cup doesn't? And the phase which it will go is determined by the UEFA Ranking (relatively to the French, England and Italian League Cups)?

4 - Why does the UEFA Ranking only enters in force two seasons later and not only one season later? When the season 2012-2013 begins it will be the UEFA Ranking of the 2010-2011 season that will be in force...

5 - According to this site, Portugal will have 5 teams next season in UEFA competitions. But according with what I read, it can have 6 teams if Académica beat Sporting in the Portuguese Cup Final (Sporting will end the championship in 4th place, thereby going to the Europa League, even if they loose the Final), or Rio Ave (instead of Vitória de Guimarăes), in case Sporting wins the Portuguese Cup Final, as they seem to have been the only other Portuguese team to have completed the whole process of the registration for the European Competitions. And why does Portugal have frequently one team less comparing with other countries that are up to 5 positions behind us?

6 - Does the UEFA Ranking only tell the number of teams a country will carry in UEFA competitions through the championship (not counting with those from the Domestic Cup and the League Cup)?

7 - Portugal is ranked 5th in the 2012-2013 season, but it is as if it was in 6th place (2010-2011 season), but, as far as I know, 6th place countries have the right to have 6 teams, not 5 that appear in this site, in the case of our country (maybe its an error).

8 - Where can you see the clubs that get a license to enter UEFA competitions? Can we know the reasons they couldn't get them? Why didn't the portuguese clubs got it?

9 - Could you explain to me what the Country Coef and Team Coef is?

10 - Why can Braga (among others) go to the playoff of the Champions League, instead of the 3rd qualifying round (they will finish our championship in 3rd), if Chelsea beat Bayern Munich in the Champions League Final?

11 - Could you explain to me what the Fair Play Ranking is (and why, not counting with England, the countries that have one extra team are frequently countries whose football is not very good), how many extra teams a country can carry, etc?

11 - Why did Porto go to the playoff of the Europa League, if they won the Portuguese Cup in 2010 (they finished in 3rd place in the 2009-2010 Portuguese League), and if Sporting wins the Portuguese Cup Final (it will end in 4th place in the Portuguese League) they will go directly to the grouph phase? Did the UEFA Ranking rules changed, or was it because we were in 9th place in it, back then, and we currently are in 6th place in it (not 5th, because it's the 2010-2011 season Ranking that will enter in force in the 2012-2013 season, not the 2011-2012 season Ranking)?

12 - Does the victory in the UEFA Super Cup affect the UEFA Ranking'

13 - Can a second level team go to UEFA competitions, through the Fair Play Ranking, or if a country thas has the right of having, for example, 6 teams, can?t get his 6th place team in the championsip last season or any other team of the first level get its license, etc (not counting if that team wins the Domestic Cup or the League Cup of that country)?

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 11-05-2012, 16:56

1 - Can the runners-up of the Portuguese Cup go to the Europa League, and if they can, at what phase? Does the phase which they will go is determined by the UEFA Ranking?
No, since the Cup winner won't be qualified for the Champions League.

2 - There are countries that have a League Cup (not to confuse with the Domestic Cup) and there are others that haven't. Why is that?
Why these countries have a League Cup is determined by their national FA's. I can't answer that in general

3 - Why does the winner of the French League Cup go to the Europa League (don't know the phase) and the winner of the Portuguese League Cup doesn't? And the phase which it will go is determined by the UEFA Ranking (relatively to the French, England and Italian League Cups)?
Countries can make a request to UEFA to have the winner of their League Cup enter Europa League (at the cost of a EL-spot in the league, so no extra spot!). Only France and England have made that request. Portugal hasn't. If they would make that request it is likely UEFA would grant that. The League Cup winners enter at the earliest stage that the country has a spot (unless they already qualified by other means via the league or Cup).

4 - Why does the UEFA Ranking only enters in force two seasons later and not only one season later? When the season 2012-2013 begins it will be the UEFA Ranking of the 2010-2011 season that will be in force...
This is done so all clubs know how many spots they play for before the league starts. If UEFA would use the latest ranking, then it could only be known in February or later how many spots the clubs play for.

5 - According to this site, Portugal will have 5 teams next season in UEFA competitions. But according with what I read, it can have 6 teams if Académica beat Sporting in the Portuguese Cup Final (Sporting will end the championship in 4th place, thereby going to the Europa League, even if they loose the Final), or Rio Ave (instead of Vitória de Guimarăes), in case Sporting wins the Portuguese Cup Final, as they seem to have been the only other Portuguese team to have completed the whole process of the registration for the European Competitions. And why does Portugal have frequently one team less comparing with other countries that are up to 5 positions behind us?
Portugal will have 6 teams next season. 5 are known right now. The 6th team depends on who wins the Cup final. Academica qualify if they win. If Sporting win, then the next team in the league (which has a licence) will qualify.
The number of teams in Europe for 2012/13 are determined by the country ranking of 2011. So you should look at that when you compare the number of teams each country has in Europe. Then you see that a country lower on the ranking will never have more teams in Europe (only exceptions are Fair Play teams which are distributed as extra spots in another way, and Liechtenstein who only has 1 team because they only have a Cup and no league)

6 - Does the UEFA Ranking only tell the number of teams a country will carry in UEFA competitions through the championship (not counting with those from the Domestic Cup and the League Cup)?
The ranking determines how many teams a country has in Europe. 1 of these teams will qualify via the Cup (countries can't choose that, it is determined). If a country chooses to qualify a team via the League Cup it will be at the expense of a qualified team via the league (so no extra team).

7 - Portugal is ranked 5th in the 2012-2013 season, but it is as if it was in 6th place (2010-2011 season), but, as far as I know, 6th place countries have the right to have 6 teams, not 5 that appear in this site, in the case of our country (maybe its an error).
You must read it wrong. Portugal will have 6 teams in Europe, 5 via the league + 1 via the Cup.

8 - Where can you see the clubs that get a license to enter UEFA competitions? Can we know the reasons they couldn't get them? Why didn't the portuguese clubs got it?
I don't think there is a list for that. Clubs have to request a licence. The reason they don't request or don't get a licence will not always be made public.

9 - Could you explain to me what the Country Coef and Team Coef is?
Country coefficient is the number of points all clubs from that country collected divided by the number of teams from that country that played in that season.
Team coefficient is the number of points the team collected + 20% of the country coefficient.

10 - Why can Braga (among others) go to the playoff of the Champions League, instead of the 3rd qualifying round (they will finish our championship in 3rd), if Chelsea beat Bayern Munich in the Champions League Final?
If Chelsea win the CL, they qualify for the CL-Group Stage as Title Holders. Since there is a rule that no more then 4 clubs from each country can qualify for CL, the 4th ranked team in the English league will not qualify. So their spot in CL-Q4 is empty. That will be filled by moving a team from country ranked 6th (first country that doesn't have a spot in CL-Q4 yet) from CL-Q3 to CL-Q4. That is Braga from Portugal this season. And to make up for the remaining odd number of teams in CL-Q3, also the team from country 7 (Russia) will be moved up to CL-Q4

11 - Could you explain to me what the Fair Play Ranking is (and why, not counting with England, the countries that have one extra team are frequently countries whose football is not very good), how many extra teams a country can carry, etc?
The Fair Play ranking is a (subjective) measure of the way teams play in a Fair way. The 3 countries that are top of that ranking (of all kinds of international matches, including CL, EL but also Womens's matches) get an extra spot in EL-Q1. Usually the Scandinavic countries are high in that ranking. I can't give an exact reason why that is, but it might have to do with the cultural way of playing football over there. Compared to Southern Europe they play more to win themselves and less to annoy opponents (like diving, asking for cards etc). Also the fact these countries have a higher level of Women's football, and so a higher percentage of Women's matches could atribute to their high ranking.

11 - Why did Porto go to the playoff of the Europa League, if they won the Portuguese Cup in 2010 (they finished in 3rd place in the 2009-2010 Portuguese League), and if Sporting wins the Portuguese Cup Final (it will end in 4th place in the Portuguese League) they will go directly to the grouph phase? Did the UEFA Ranking rules changed, or was it because we were in 9th place in it, back then, and we currently are in 6th place in it (not 5th, because it's the 2010-2011 season Ranking that will enter in force in the 2012-2013 season, not the 2011-2012 season Ranking)?
It's both. This season is the first in which clubs can qualify directly to the EL-GS, and only the CW's of the top 6 countries get a place there.

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 11-05-2012, 17:06
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 11-05-2012, 17:30

Thank you for answering to my question (only the last 2 left), but I still have questions left.

1 - Can the runners-up of the Portuguese Cup go to the Europa League, and if they can, at what phase? Does the phase which they will go is determined by the UEFA Ranking?
No, since the Cup winner won't be qualified for the Champions League.

What about if it was? Which countries whose Cup winner go to the Champions League (and at what phase)? In those countries (which the winner go to the Champions League) the runners-up go to what phase of the Europa League?

3 - Why does the winner of the French League Cup go to the Europa League (don't know the phase) and the winner of the Portuguese League Cup doesn't? And the phase which it will go is determined by the UEFA Ranking (relatively to the French, England and Italian League Cups)?
Countries can make a request to UEFA to have the winner of their League Cup enter Europa League (at the cost of a EL-spot in the league, so no extra spot!). Only France and England have made that request. Portugal hasn't. If they would make that request it is likely UEFA would grant that. The League Cup winners enter at the earliest stage that the country has a spot (unless they already qualified by other means via the league or Cup).

What spot? The fist qualifying round?

7 - Portugal is ranked 5th in the 2012-2013 season, but it is as if it was in 6th place (2010-2011 season), but, as far as I know, 6th place countries have the right to have 6 teams, not 5 that appear in this site, in the case of our country (maybe its an error).
You must read it wrong. Portugal will have 6 teams in Europe, 5 via the league + 1 via the Cup.

According to here: https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/crank2011.html, it has only 5. How can we see the team that will go to UEFA competitions via Cup, in this site? Those 5 teams are only from the league, not from the Cup, right?

11 - Why did Porto go to the playoff of the Europa League, if they won the Portuguese Cup in 2010 (they finished in 3rd place in the 2009-2010 Portuguese League), and if Sporting wins the Portuguese Cup Final (it will end in 4th place in the Portuguese League) they will go directly to the grouph phase? Did the UEFA Ranking rules changed, or was it because we were in 9th place in it, back then, and we currently are in 6th place in it (not 5th, because it's the 2010-2011 season Ranking that will enter in force in the 2012-2013 season, not the 2011-2012 season Ranking)?
It's both. This season is the first in which clubs can qualify directly to the EL-GS, and only the CW's of the top 6 countries get a place there.

What about the winners of the Domestic Cups whose countries are behind the top 6 countries in the UEFA Ranking? At which phase will they go in the Europa League?
What are the eligible teams to go to the Europa League's group phase? Only the winners of the last edition and the winners of the Domestic Cup of each of the 6 top countries in the UEFA ranking?

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 11-05-2012, 17:19

You only posted your last 2 question after I posted my reply, so they weren't there yet when I reacted.

12 - Does the victory in the UEFA Super Cup affect the UEFA Ranking'
No

13 - Can a second level team go to UEFA competitions, through the Fair Play Ranking, or if a country thas has the right of having, for example, 6 teams, can?t get his 6th place team in the championsip last season or any other team of the first level get its license, etc (not counting if that team wins the Domestic Cup or the League Cup of that country)?
Yes, teams from lower levels can get into Europe. I happens quite often that a lower level team wins the Cup (or loses the final against a team qualified for CL). It can also happen that a team gets a Fair Play spot while they were relegated at the same time (it happened with Ipswich Town once, and can happen with Excelsior this season if Twente qualifies for EL in the Dutch EL-play-offs)
It has never happened before that a country had less teams with a license then they had spots for CL+EL. So I can't answer if 2nd division teams can take a spot if all 1st level teams didn't get a license.

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 11-05-2012, 17:22
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 11-05-2012, 17:28

It can also happen that a team gets a Fair Play spot while they were relegated at the same time.

And if the team was playing the second level in the last season? Can it still get qualified?

It has never happened before that a country had less teams with a license then they had spots for CL+EL. So I can't answer if 2nd division teams can take a spot if all 1st level teams didn't get a license

In that case that country will go with one team less than it is supposed, right? The only portuguese team eligible to go to the Europa League this season to occupy the 6th vacancy is Rio Ave, because it is the only team that got the license (according to what I read), but it is very behind of Guimarăes, if Guimarăes gets qualified (which he won't, because it has no license).

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 11-05-2012, 17:28
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 11-05-2012, 17:30

What about if it was? Which countries whose Cup winner go to the Champions League (and at what phase)? In those countries (which the winner go to the Champions League) the runners-up go to what phase of the Europa League?
You misunderstood me. No country has the right to send its Cup winner in Champions League. But it happens quite often that the Cup winner also ends up in the top of his league and qualifies for CL in that way. In that case the losing Cup finalist will take it's place in the EL.

What spot? The fist qualifying round?
That depends on the spots the country has. England and France have 3 EL-spots (1 in GS, 1 in Q4 and 1 in Q3), so their League Cup winner enters in Q3.

According to here: https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/crank2011.html, it has only 5. How can we see the team that will go to UEFA competitions via Cup, in this site? Those 5 teams are only from the league, not from the Cup, right?
That was the number of teams Portugal had in Europe in the final season of that ranking (2010-11). That number was determined by the 2009 ranking, in which Portugal was 10th.

What about the winners of the Domestic Cups whose countries are behind the top 6 countries in the UEFA Ranking? At which phase will they go in the Europa League?
That depends on the position of the country in the ranking. See the access list.

What are are eligible to go to the Europa League's group phase? Only the winners of the last edition and the winners of the Domestic Cup?
Yes, only the winners of the Cups in countries 1-6 (if the Cup winners are also qualified for CL, then the highest team in the league not qualified for CL will take their spot in EL-GS) and the winner of the Europa League of the previous season.
However if the winner of the Europa League has already qualified for CL or EL-GS via it's own league or Cup a spot will be empty. That will be filled by moving up the CW of country 7.

In that case that country will go with one team less than it is supposed, right? The only portuguese team eligible to go to the Europa League this season to occupy the 6th vacancy is Rio Ave, because it is the only team that got the license (according to what I read), but it is very behind of Guimarăes, if Guimarăes gets qualified (which he won't, because it has no license).
I'm not sure if there is anything in the regulations about that. But it would surprise me if instead the top team of the 2nd level is allowed into Europe.

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 11-05-2012, 17:33
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 11-05-2012, 18:27

What if Bilbau beat Barcelona in the Spanish Cup?

Will it go to the Europa League group stage, along with Atlético Madrid (who won the last Europa League)?

You misunderstood me. No country has the right to send its Cup winner in Champions League. But it happens quite often that the Cup winner also ends up in the top of his league and qualifies for CL in that way. In that case the losing Cup finalist will take it's place in the EL.

And what place is that?

Another questions: since which country goals scored in the championship are multiplied by 2 for the european golden shoe?
Why do Europa League and Champions League's games begin one hour behind the schedule of the UEFA's site? Not only that happens with the English version, but with the Portuguese also, because the schedule is the same! This forum's schedule is 1 hour ahead of the current schedule (in my case).

Re: Very questions
Author: executor Date: 11-05-2012, 18:14	@Forza-AZ Wow! Nice effort put into this! You can easily get a Ph. D. in coefficients

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 11-05-2012, 18:17 Edited by: UploaderAfonso at: 11-05-2012, 18:18	Lol, I think so too! But its in UEFA Ranking, not only in UEFA coefficients!

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 11-05-2012, 18:58
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 11-05-2012, 19:04

I'm not sure if there is anything in the regulations about that. But it would surprise me if instead the top team of the 2nd level is allowed into Europe.

I've checked the regulations about this point:

b) if the club which is not admitted is not the winner of the domestic cup, it is replaced by the next best-placed club in the top domestic league championship.

So indeed if a country has more CL/EL spots then there are top level clubs with a licence, the country has to participate in Europe with less clubs. So the only way lower level teams can qualify for the EL is by winning a Cup or losing the Cup final against a team qualified for CL.

What if Bilbau beat Barcelona in the Spanish Cup?

Will it go to the Europa League group stage, along with Atlético Madrid (who won the last Europa League)?
Yes, the Spanish Cup winner will qualify for EL-GS. That has nothing to do with another Spanish club winning the EL. So in this case Spain will have 2 clubs directly in eL-GS

And what place is that?
The losing Cup finalist will take the lowest EL-spot the country has available, so to stick by the Spanish example. If Bilbao win the cup they enter EL-GS, but if they lose the Cup final they enter in EL-Q3 (since Spain has 1 EL-GS, 1 EL-Q4 and 1 EL-Q3 spot)

Why do Europa League and Champions League's games begin one hour behind the schedule of the UEFA's site? Not only that happens with the English version, but with the Portuguese also, because the schedule is the same! This forum's schedule is 1 hour ahead of the current schedule (in my case).
The times mentioned on uefa.com are in CET. That is the time zone for Central Europe. Portugal is 1 hour behind, so that's why the games start 1945 (CL) and 1800 or 2005 (EL) Portuguese time.

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 11-05-2012, 19:20

Why do Europa League and Champions League's games begin one hour behind the schedule of the UEFA's site? Not only that happens with the English version, but with the Portuguese also, because the schedule is the same! This forum's schedule is 1 hour ahead of the current schedule (in my case).
The times mentioned on uefa.com are in CET. That is the time zone for Central Europe. Portugal is 1 hour behind, so that's why the games start 1945 (CL) and 1800 or 2005 (EL) Portuguese time.

Why don't they change it?

Re: Very questions
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 11-05-2012, 19:44	Then UEFA should make a different site for every timezone (or automate the displayed time to the time the user is in). Not everybody using the Portuguese site is in Portugal for instance. They already mention both the times in CET (time at the UEFA headquarters) and the local time of the game.

Re: Very questions
Author: KUYT Date: 11-05-2012, 19:59	It's like a Q&A :P brilliant forzaAZ

Re: Very questions
Author: Madeirense Date: 11-05-2012, 19:59	Concerning the information on which clubs have been awarded a licence and which clubs have not, I think that this information is a private and confidential matter. Only the club itself, if it has applied for a licence,is officially informed if the licence has been granted or not, and, in the latter case, the reasons why not. It is up to the club itself if they wish to make this infomation public

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 11-05-2012, 22:57
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 11-05-2012, 23:26

"They already mention both the times in CET (time at the UEFA headquarters) and the local time of the game.". I didn't know. Where can I see it?

Another questions: why can't clubs qualify to Europa League group stage through the League, unlike the Champions League? Can a country refuse to carry, let's say, 1 team, and only carry 4 (it had the right to carry 5 teams), or it is forced to carry all of them?

Re: Very questions
Author: Lorric Date: 11-05-2012, 23:23	It's a shame topics fall into the archives. This would make a good sticky as a faq.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 12-05-2012, 11:16

Another questions: why can't clubs qualify to Europa League group stage through the League, unlike the Champions League?
That is because UEFA chose not to do this. This originates from the UEFA-cup in which no teams qualified directly to the group stage. When the EL was introduced the "old" round 1 of UEFA-cup was moved forward and renamed QR4 in EL. UEFA only decided to award a direct GS spot to the winner of the EL in the first 3 seasons. Starting this season they decided to also have the CW's of countries 1-6 directly in GS.

Can a country refuse to carry, let's say, 1 team, and only carry 4 (it had the right to carry 5 teams), or it is forced to carry all of them?
I'm not sure if they are forced to enter all teams, but I'm sure if a country only chooses to enter 4 teams, that the 5th team will protest fiercely.
Also why should a country want to enter less teams? Only to rise in the rankings? That would be stupid, since why should they want to rise in the rankings if they don't want to enter more teams?
Also if a country enters only 4 of the 5 teams the country ranking will most likely still be calculated by dividing all points through 5.

Author: Cloakmaster
Date: 12-05-2012, 12:42

I think it would be possible to send less teams, so say 4 instead of 5. and uefa would then divides by 4, not 5 (..is divides by the number of participating clubs.. or so is the official rule) So a club not participating does not count, no matter why it does not participate.

Still, uefa would look very closely to that. If, say, France wolud only send Olympique Lyon to regain place 4 or even place 3 in the 5-year ranking, uefa might have means to forbid that.

First, France FA would need a reason why they are not sending more teams. Refusal of a license to clubs like PSG, Marseille, Rennes Girondins Bordeaux? You cannot produce a reason out of nowhere. This might be possible at a far lower stag, maybe albania or so. But there, too rules does exist. And if uefa think, that nation is manipulating things, they might refuse that nation in total.

Turkey might be a small option, if Turkish FA decides all clubs suspected in manipulations are withdrwan from all uefa competitions, and then turkish top league would not have enogh teams left. Even moe, when you refuse small clubs being unable to compete in international standards. But if they say, Galatasaray (or whoever else) is innocent, and they are the only ones meeting all requirements, it would be very... strange.

Re: Very questions
Author: playtony Date: 12-05-2012, 15:58	If Bursa get 5th position in Turkey, who will play play-off for EL spot against Besiktas, in the case that Bursa winns Turkish cup as well? And what if Bursa loses cup final?

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 12-05-2012, 17:07
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 12-05-2012, 17:08

Bursaspor just won the Europa League play-offs, so that means Besiktas is qualified for EL also.

I'm not sure if there will still be a play-off between Besiktas and Bursaspor. That also depends on the Cup final.

If Bursaspor win the Cup they are qualified for EL-Q4, so the play-off against Besiktas will have no use (Trabzonspor in EL-Q3 and Besiktas in EL-Q2). However if Fenerbahçe win the Cup final then the play-off might go ahead with the winner qualifying for EL-Q3 and the loser to EL-Q2 (Trabzonspor will be in EL-Q4).

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 12-05-2012, 17:52
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 13-05-2012, 17:31

Can a country refuse to carry, let's say, 1 team, and only carry 4 (it had the right to carry 5 teams), or it is forced to carry all of them?
I'm not sure if they are forced to enter all teams, but I'm sure if a country only chooses to enter 4 teams, that the 5th team will protest fiercely.
Also why should a country want to enter less teams? Only to rise in the rankings? That would be stupid, since why should they want to rise in the rankings if they don't want to enter more teams?

Because only the top 4 portuguese clubs (the ones which end the season from 1st to 4th place in the League) can do reasonable seasons in UEFA competitions and, therefore, rise our ranking. Usually our 5th place or/and 6th place team can't even qualify to the Europa League's Group Stage, being eleminated in the 3th qualifying round or/and the 4th qualifying round of the Europa League, which prevents our ranking from rising even more, because UEFA divides by 5 or 6 (the number of participating clubs) and not by 4. Even if we carry (somehow) only 4 teams, UEFA might divide by 5 or 6 (depending on the number of teams we have the right to qualify) and not by 4, maybe! So, the only way to carry less teams than the deserved is if that situation happens (if varous clubs aren't licensed)?

Author: executor
Date: 12-05-2012, 18:12

UploaderAfonso: Because only the top 4 portuguese clubs (the ones which end the season from 1st to 4th place in the League) can do reasonable seasons in UEFA competitions and, therefore, rise our ranking. Usually our 5th place or/and 6th place team can't even qualify to the Europa League's Group Phase, being eleminated in the 3th qualifying round or/and playoff of the Europa League, which prevents our ranking from rising even more

But you DO understand that by rising in the rankings you get more teams in Europe, right? So, the idea is to give those teams outside Top 4 a chance to play in EuroCups in hope one of them can provide support to the other 4. You can't have only 4 good teams in your championship. If you do, then you don't deserve to rise in the rankings. What for?

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 12-05-2012, 19:13
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 13-05-2012, 16:43

But you DO understand that by rising in the rankings you get more teams in Europe, right? So, the idea is to give those teams outside Top 4 a chance to play in EuroCups in hope one of them can provide support to the other 4. You can't have only 4 good teams in your championship. If you do, then you don't deserve to rise in the rankings. What for?

And you DO realize that almost all teams from our League are weak, don't you? As our ranking rises, more teams we will carry that are weak (more teams worse than the top 4 in our League).

Re: Very questions
Author: Friesland Date: 12-05-2012, 19:15	The points are always divided by the number of teams that could have entered. So, if you only want to use four of your six spots, they will still be treated as if there were 6 teams. The two missing teams would obviously score 0 points. So, it's still better to use all six spot, because even if they'd score half a point is better than 0 points.

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 12-05-2012, 19:17 Edited by: UploaderAfonso at: 13-05-2012, 16:44	The points are always divided by the number of teams that could have entered. So, if you only want to use four of your six spots, they will still be treated as if there were 6 teams. The two missing teams would obviously score 0 points. So, it's still better to use all six spot, because even if they'd score half a point is better than 0 points. That's very unfair! Where did you read that?

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 12-05-2012, 19:34

I'm not sure it is in the rules somewhere.

But we might see an example soon. Last season Turkey had the right to send 5 teams into Europe. However Fenerbahçe were banned before they played their first match.
On this site is assumed UEFA would divide by 4, since only 4 teams did play matches. However it seems that on the UEFA-site they still divided by 5. These rankings are not final however, but as soon as UEFA published the qualified teams for next season we can see what number of coefficient points the Turkish teams have, and then we can tell if the coefficient of 2011/12 was calculated by dividing by 4 or 5.

But on your point of wanting only 4 good teams in Europe for Portugal. Your argument is that this way Portugal can get a better ranking. That is true, but why would you want a better ranking if you don't want more teams in Europe?
And some years ago Portugal only had 3 good teams. If Braga wasn't send into Europe at that time they might not have gotten as good as they are now. So maybe another Portuguese team can also get better if they get some experience in European matches.

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 12-05-2012, 20:28
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 13-05-2012, 17:32

It can, but I doubt it, since most of our teams has a budget inferior to 1 million euros. And, by the way, we don't know if Braga will continue like this, because, years ago, Belenenses and Boavista were crowned league champions (the only teams besides Porto, Benfica and Sporting to have been crowned as such) and Belenenses now plays on the second level and Boavista on the third level (second division), although Boavista was relegated to the second level because of corruption and then relegated to third level (second division) because of a debt of 159000 euros), but it never went up a division.
The Turkish case is different from ours, but I think we can compare these two situations.
I still don't know why FC Porto played in the Champions League when the process Apito Dourado was known, and Fenerbahce didn't. Strange... I still don't know why Besiktas played in the Europa League (their Domestic Cup was taken because of corruption) and Trabzonspor played in the Group Stage of the Champions League when it was eliminated by Benfica in the 3rd qualifying round of it, after being promoted from the Europa League's 4th qualifying round against Athletic Bilbao. Later they finished they group in 3rd and were demoted to the last 32 of the Europa League and were, fianlly, eliminated. Good way to fight corruption, UEFA! And they say that they are against corruption... It looks like, in this Turkish case, they encourage it, as Trabzonspor continued to receive millions, and Besiktas, who wasn't even supossed to be in the Europa League, eliminated Braga in the last 32 of it!

Author: Cloakmaster
Date: 12-05-2012, 21:21
Edited by: Cloakmaster
at: 12-05-2012, 21:21

uefa rule of play, annex II, Chapter 6
To calculate the coefficient of the association concerned, the points obtained
in a given season by its clubs are added, then divided by the total number of
clubs from the association that took part in the two UEFA club competitions
in question. However, if a club refuses to enter either of these two UEFA club
competitions and is therefore not replaced by another club from the same
association, the coefficient of the association concerned is calculated as
follows: the points obtained in the season in question by its clubs are added,
then divided by the total number of clubs from the association that could
have entered the two UEFA club competitions in accordance with the access
list as set out in Annex Ia.

Question is: Did the Club in question deliberatly "refuse to enter" or was the club suspendend from play? In the latter case, i think the club would not count in.

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 12-05-2012, 21:42
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 12-05-2012, 21:50

Académica beat Guimarăes and Rio Ave lost with FC Porto, so Académica is now in 12th place with 29 points and Rio Ave in 14th place with 28 points. Académica will be our 6th team in UEFA competitions and will enter in the 3rd qualifying round of the Europa League, right? Where can I see how many teams we will have in the next season? What if Rio Ave won and Académica lost, causing it (Rio Ave) to qualify for the 3rd qualifying round of the Europa League, and if Académica beat Sporting in the Portuguese Cup final, making it qualify for the group stage of the Europa League? We would have 7 teams in the next season, right? And what if Académica, that will be on the 3rd qualifying round of the Europa League, win the Portuguese Cup Final? Will they be in the 3rd qualifying round or in the group stage of the Europa League?

Author: Cloakmaster
Date: 12-05-2012, 22:40
Edited by: Cloakmaster
at: 12-05-2012, 22:56

FC Porto & Benfica Lisboa are in CL-Group Stage.

Braga is in CL-Q3 for nonchampions, and will move up to CL-Q4, if Chelsea beats Bayern next week.

If Academica wants to play international, they must win against Sporting Lisboa in the cup final. Then Acadamica will enter in EL-Group stage, Sporting Lisboa in El-Q4 and Maritimo Funchal in El-Q3.

If Sporting Lisboa win the cup, Sporting will start in GS, Maritimo Funchal in q4, and Vitoria Guimares in q3.

Either way, there are only 6 Places for Protugal altogeher. 7 Teams are just for nations ranked 1-3 in the 5-year Ranking (Currently Spain, England and Germany). Antoher entry is only possible via Fair Play (That's why the netherlands will have 7 entrys next year) or by winning the CL/EL Title and not qualifying internationally otherwise.

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 13-05-2012, 00:17 Edited by: UploaderAfonso at: 13-05-2012, 03:31	Actually, it's not Benfica Lisboa but Sport Lisboa e Benfica, and it's is not Sporting Lisbon, but Sporting Club de Portugal, and FC Porto instead of FC Oporto. I would like the english xenophobia to end (even in UEFA's site the names were wrong years ago).

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 13-05-2012, 00:23
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 13-05-2012, 16:44

If Academica wants to play international, they must win against Sporting Lisboa in the cup final. Then Acadamica will enter in EL-Group stage, Sporting Lisboa in El-Q4 and Maritimo Funchal in El-Q3.

Actually, Académica (12th place in the League) is qualified for being the only portuguese club, alongside Rio Ave, to have a licence that is behind the 5th place team (Rio Ave won't enter in UEFA competitions because it would be the 7th team to enter it through the League, which is impossible according to our ranking).

If Sporting Lisboa win the cup, Sporting will start in GS, Maritimo Funchal in q4, and Vitoria Guimares in q3.

Vitória de Guimarăes didn't get a licence, so Académica took its place as the 6th place team in UEFA competitions.

Either way, there are only 6 Places for Protugal altogeher. 7 Teams are just for nations ranked 1-3 in the 5-year Ranking (Currently Spain, England and Germany). Antoher entry is only possible via Fair Play (That's why the netherlands will have 7 entrys next year) or by winning the CL/EL Title and not qualifying internationally otherwise.

Actually, if Rio Ave won against FC Porto and Académica lost against Guimarăes, Rio Ave would be our 6th and last team through the League. If Acádemica beat Sporting in the Portuguese Cup final, they would go to the group stage, and Sporting would go to playoff, because it ended the season in 4th place in the League. However due to the current situation, we can only have 6 teams, instead of 7, but 7 teams were possible.

Man, didn't you read what we wrote before? All that you wrote is wrong!

Another question: England can have 9 teams in UEFA Competitions, can it? If 7 teams qualify through the League, 1 through the FA Cup (that isn't any of the 7 teams that qualified through the League and isn't the one that qualified through the League Cup) and 1 through the League Cup (that isn't any of the 7 teams that qualified through the League and isn't the one that qualified through the FA Cup)

Author: Excelsior
Date: 13-05-2012, 00:53

England gets 7 spots in total:
#1,2,3 -> CLgs
#4 -> CLq4 (or EL if Chelsea wins the CL)
FA Cup winner -> ELgs
#5 -> ELq4
League cup winner -> ELq3

The following exceptions are possible:
-If the FA cup winner finishes 5th, #6 will take the ELq4 spot over from them
-If the FA cup winner finishes in spots 1-4 and the runners-up finish 6th or lower and don't win the LC, the runners-up will qualify for ELq3, #5 will be upgraded to ELgs, LC winner to ELq4
-If the FA cup winner finishes in spots 1-4 and the runners-up finish 5th, #5 will play to ELgs, #6 ELq4, LC winner ELq3
-If both FA cup finalists finish in spots 1-4, the #6 will qualify for ELq4, #5 will get upgraded to ELgs
-If the league cup winner qualifies for CL/EL via the league or FA Cup, their spot will be taken by the highest team in the league who didn't have a European spot yet

England can get an extra European spot in the following ways:
-fair play
-CL winners don't qualify for a European spot via domestic competitions
-EL winners don't qualify for a European spot via domestic competitions

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 13-05-2012, 01:01
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 13-05-2012, 16:42

England can get an extra European spot in the following ways:
-fair play
-CL winners don't qualify for a European spot via domestic competitions
-EL winners don't qualify for a European spot via domestic competitions

But that would make 9, counting with the 7 teams that qualified through the League (if any of the winners of the UEFA competitions isn't any of the top 7 teams in the league), plus the winners of the FA Cup (if it isn't any of the other teams) and the winners of the League Cup (if it isn't any of the other teams), it would make 11?

Another question: since which country goals scored in the championship are multiplied by 2 for the european golden shoe?

I read that Académica will go to the Europa League's 3rd qualifying round because the teams that finished the season behind the 5h place team didn't want to go to the competitions or don't fulfill UEFA's requirements, so it isn't stupid (nor impossible), Forza-AZ and executor! It looks like a country can?t ban certains teams to go to UEFA competitions (unless they were confirmed to be corrupt), but the teams may not go to it if they don't want to!

Author: Cloakmaster
Date: 13-05-2012, 06:12
Edited by: Cloakmaster
at: 13-05-2012, 06:26

All i Found from official sources is, that Vitoria Guimares didn't get a license, so Nacional Funchal should be the next in League who co
uld qualify. It's hard to believe that half of Portugals Top league is not able to play internationally.

Besides, There is NO WAY for any nation to get 11 clubs international.

10 is the ultimate maximum:
6 via league if nation ist rank 1-3 in uefa ranking.
1 via national cup,
1 CL winner beeing not one of the league entrants or national cup winner/finalist against a CL team
1 EL winner beeing not one of the league entrants or national cup winner/finalist against a CL team
1 fair play.

English/French League cup winner is deducted from the 6 league enttrants, so for endland it is
5 league entrants
1 league cup
1 FA cup
1 CL winner beeing not one of the league entrants or cup winner or cup finalist against a CL team
1 EL winner beeing not one of the league entrants or cup winner or cup finalist against a CL team
1 fair play.

makes still 10, not 11.

Actually, if Rio Ave won against FC Porto and Académica lost against Guimarăes, Rio Ave would be our 6th and last team through the League. If Acádemica beat Sporting in the Portuguese Cup final, they would go to the group stage, and Sporting would go to playoff, because it ended the season in 4th place in the League. However due to the current situation, we can only have 6 teams, instead of 7, but 7 teams were possible.

Man, didn't you read what we wrote before? All that you wrote is wrong!
Again, 7 Teams is NOT possible for Portugal since Protgual did not win CL or EL thropy and did not win a fair Play entry. So it is 6 Places, no matter what happens or might have happened in Portugals League and/or Portugals national Cup.

If there is one fact I missed, I'll be happy to get my error corrected by guy like bert or Forrza-AZ and some others who are more able to explain the facts, rules & figures.

Re: Very questions
Author: bert.kassies Date: 13-05-2012, 09:05	@Cloakmaster I agree with you that it is hard to believe that a top-6 association cannot send more clubs to European football. And it's true that there is no official confirmation. But it's more then a news item from a single source. See e.g. abola1 and abola2.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 13-05-2012, 10:39

Actually, if Rio Ave won against FC Porto and Académica lost against Guimarăes, Rio Ave would be our 6th and last team through the League. If Acádemica beat Sporting in the Portuguese Cup final, they would go to the group stage, and Sporting would go to playoff, because it ended the season in 4th place in the League. However due to the current situation, we can only have 6 teams, instead of 7, but 7 teams were possible.
Portugal has 6 spots in Europe, not 7!!!

If Rio Ave would have been ahead of Academica they would only have qualified if Academica would not have won the Cup. Portugal has 3 spots in EL and these are divided this way:
1.Cup winner
2. and 3. next 2 teams in the league not yet qualified (and with a licence)

So if the final table would have been like this:
4.Sporting
5.Maritimo
"6".Rio Ave
"7".Academica

If Sporting wins the Cup: Sporting (GS), Maritimo (Q4) and Rio ave (Q3).
If Academica wins the Cup: Academica (GS), Sporting (Q4), Maritimo (Q3). So Rio Ave would not have been in Europe!!!.

Since now Academica is ahead of Rio Ave, Academica will be the team in Q3 if they don't win the Cup.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 13-05-2012, 10:43
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 13-05-2012, 10:48

Another question: England can have 9 teams in UEFA Competitions, can it? If 7 teams qualify through the League, 1 through the FA Cup (that isn't any of the 7 teams that qualified through the League and isn't the one that qualified through the League Cup) and 1 through the League Cup (that isn't any of the 7 teams that qualified through the League and isn't the one that qualified through the FA Cup)

You still don't understand it. The number of teams a country has in Europa is the total number of teams. 1 of these teams will qualify via the Cup, and in England and France 1 of these teams qualify via League Cup. The teams that qualify via the Cup(s) are not extra teams, but belong to the total number of teams.

So if a country has 7 spots, then they have 6 spots via the league and 1 spot via the Cup.
For England: 5 spots via the league, 1 via the Cup and 1 via the FA-cup. So Cup winners will never be an extra team, they are just included in the total number of teams a country has the right to send into Europe.
Only possible extra teams are if a team wins the CL or EL and didn't qualify for Europe already, or if a country gets a team via Fair Play.

Re: Very questions
Author: Lorric Date: 13-05-2012, 13:13 Edited by: Lorric at: 13-05-2012, 13:13	Is it just laziness in not applying by Portuguese clubs? After all we know clubs from leagues with terrible standards by comparison are still allowed to compete, so it can't be too hard to get in.

Re: Very questions
Author: rmsg Date: 13-05-2012, 15:26 Edited by: rmsg at: 13-05-2012, 15:30	Some of the portuguese smaller clubs say it is not worthwhile to participate in UEFA (EL not CL): they have more expenses than revenue, some start the season too early and resent later. While it is not profitable, I believe that some clubs will not want to participate in the EL, unfortunately.

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 13-05-2012, 16:37
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 13-05-2012, 17:34

Is it just laziness in not applying by Portuguese clubs?

No, like I wrote before some of them simply don't want to go to UEFA competitions and others don't fulfill UEFA's requirements (they are full of debts).

You still don't understand it. The number of teams a country has in Europa is the total number of teams. 1 of these teams will qualify via the Cup, and in England and France 1 of these teams qualify via League Cup. The teams that qualify via the Cup(s) are not extra teams, but belong to the total number of teams

How can that be, if we have 6 teams that qualified through the League (Académica was the last and ended the season in 13th place)?

If Rio Ave would have been ahead of Academica they would only have qualified if Academica would not have won the Cup. Portugal has 3 spots in EL and these are divided this way:
1.Cup winner
2. and 3. next 2 teams in the league not yet qualified (and with a licence)

So if the final table would have been like this:
4.Sporting
5.Maritimo
"6".Rio Ave
"7".Academica

If Sporting wins the Cup: Sporting (GS), Maritimo (Q4) and Rio ave (Q3).
If Academica wins the Cup: Academica (GS), Sporting (Q4), Maritimo (Q3). So Rio Ave would not have been in Europe!!!.

Since now Academica is ahead of Rio Ave, Academica will be the team in Q3 if they don't win the Cup.

Actually, what I wrote before is right, since I later read it different sites. Académica will enter as our 6th team through the League (in spite of having ended the season in 13th place in the League). If Rio Ave won and Académica lost, Rio Ave would qualify as our 6th place team through the League and if Académica won the Portuguese Cup final agaisnt Sporting, they would qualify to the Europa League's Group Stage (being our 7th team), and Sporting would go to the Europa League's 4th qualifying round.

English/French League cup winner is deducted from the 6 league enttrants, so for endland it is
5 league entrants
1 league cup
1 FA cup
1 CL winner beeing not one of the league entrants or cup winner or cup finalist against a CL team
1 EL winner beeing not one of the league entrants or cup winner or cup finalist against a CL team
1 fair play.

What about the Cup runners-up if they faced a already qualified champions league team that is not one of the 5 teams that qualified through the League, not the League Cup Winner, not the team hat qualified through fair play? It would make 11 teams?

I agree with you that it is hard to believe that a top-6 association cannot send more clubs to European football. And it's true that there is no official confirmation.

Actually, we are ranked 5th, currently. Some of our teams simply didn't want to go there (looks like it's possible) and others didn't fulfill UEFA's requiremtnes (they didn't get a license, because they are full of debts).

Another questions: since which country goals scored in the championship are multiplied by 2 for the european golden shoe?
How can I see the number of teams we will have in the next season (the name of them, how they qualified to UEFA competitions and to what stage of the competitions they will enter)?
I read on sites like Wikipedia that we have 6 teams that will go to UEFA competitions: the 1st and the 2nd teams will go to the Champions League's group stage, the 3rd team will go to the Champions League's 4th qualifying round, the 4st and 5th teams will go to the Europa League's 4th qualifying round and the 6t team will go to the Europa League's 3rd qualifying round. All this doesn't count with the Portuguese Cup winner.

Re: Very questions
Author: bert.kassies Date: 13-05-2012, 16:44	"some of them simply don't want to go to UEFA competitions" In that case UEFA maybe doesn't accept the replacement clubs.

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 13-05-2012, 16:47	"some of them simply don't want to go to UEFA competitions" In that case UEFA maybe doesn't accept the replacement clubs. It looks like it only accepted Académica and Rio Ave besides our top 5 teams, but only the team that ended the season in a better position will go to the Europa League, and that team is Académica.

Re: Very questions
Author: rmsg Date: 13-05-2012, 16:52	Although the clubs have some reason for not wanting to start the season too early, participate in UEFA competitions should be an honor.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 13-05-2012, 16:56

How can that be, if we have 6 teams that qualified through the League (Académica was the last and ended the season in 13th place)?

Actually, what I wrote before is right, since I later read it different sites. Académica will enter as our 6th team through the League (in spite of having ended the season in 13th place in the League). If Rio Ave won and Académica lost, Rio Ave would qualify as our 6th place team through the League and if Académica won the Portuguese Cup final agaisnt Sporting, they would qualify to the Europa League's Group Stage (being our 7th team), and Sporting would go to the Europa League's Playoff.

Can't you read?
Portugal doesn't have 6 CL/EL spots in the league, they have 6 CL/EL spots in total. That means 5 CL/EL spots in the league + 1 EL spot in the Cup. So Portugal will always have 6 teams in Europe, no matter who wins the Cup. If the Cup winner isn't in the top 6 in the league, then they will just qualify instead of the 6th placed team in the league.

What about the Cup runners-up if they faced a already qualified champions league team that is not one of the 5 teams that qualified through the League, not the League Cup Winner, not the team hat qualified through fair play? It would make 11 teams?
No, England has 3 EL spots in total. 1 goes to the Cup winner (or runner-up if Cup winner is qualified for the CL), 1 goes to the league Cup winner and the 3rd spot goes to the league. It doesn't matter what position the Cup winners finish in the league, England will just have 3 EL spots always. Only extra spots can be there when a club wins the CL or EL and hasn't qualified in the league or cups yet, or if the country gets a Fair Play spot.
So max number of teams for England is 10: 4 CL, 3 regular EL, 2 extra EL for CL + EL winner not qualified yet, 1 extra EL for Fair Play.

How can I see the number of teams we will have in the next season (the name of them and how they qualified to UEFA competitions)?
https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/qual2012.html

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 13-05-2012, 17:15
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 13-05-2012, 17:23

Can't you read?
Portugal doesn't have 6 CL/EL spots in the league, they have 6 CL/EL spots in total. That means 5 CL/EL spots in the league + 1 EL spot in the Cup. So Portugal will always have 6 teams in Europe, no matter who wins the Cup. If the Cup winner isn't in the top 6 in the league, then they will just qualify instead of the 6th placed team in the league.

Can't you read what I wrote?
Not only I thought about it, but also what I wrote here appeared in different sites!

How can Marítimo go to Q3, like that site says? The League already ended and it finished in 5th! In that site it says that Braga can only go to the Champions League's Q3, but it can go to Q4 if Chelsea beats Bayern Munich!

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 13-05-2012, 17:21

Not only I thought about it, but also what I wrote here appeared in different sites!
Then these sites are wrong!!! (Can you give me a link where they wrote that?)

The total number of EL-spots for each country are fixed, and don't depend on the position of the Cup winner.
So before this season it was already known Portugal would send 3 teams to CL and 3 teams to EL.

A lot of sites don't know the exact rules, so if you read different things, then trust the ones written here, since here we have a few experts on these ranking/coefficient matters.

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 13-05-2012, 17:23
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 13-05-2012, 17:30

Then these sites are wrong!!! (Can you give me a link where they wrote that?)
I could, but they are in portuguese!

But what they wrote is right, I think, because Académica (our 6th team) qualified for, at least, the Q3 qualifying round of the Europa League, and if Rio Ave ended the season above them, it would have been them to to go to the Q3 of Europa League. If Académica won the Cup final against Sporting, they would go to the GS and Sporting to the Q4, being our 7th team (Académica)!
Nevertheless, thank you for answering to my questions! Can you answer my question about the European Golden Shoe? And answer to this question: How can Marítimo go to Q3, like that site says? The League already ended and it finished in 5th! In that site it says that Braga can only go to the Champions League's Q3, but it can go to Q4 if Chelsea beats Bayern Munich!

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 13-05-2012, 17:38

"t looks like it only accepted Académica and Rio Ave besides our top 5 teams"

UEFA doesn't provide club licences. That's the responsibility of the Portuguese association.

What I mean is the following: Maybe UEFA doesn't accept any replacement when some clubs deliberately don't want to take part. Although not explicitly written in the regulations, it could be seen as being in the spirit of article 2.07:
"If a club refuses to enter the competition, having qualified for it on sporting merit and obtained a licence from the competent national body, no other club from the same association may be entered in its place."

Re: Very questions
Author: rmsg Date: 13-05-2012, 17:52 Edited by: rmsg at: 13-05-2012, 17:54	"If a club refuses to enter the competition, having qualified for it on sporting merit and obtained a licence from the competent national body, no other club from the same association may be entered in its place." Only V. Guimarăes didn't get the licence. The others clubs didn't ask, except Rio Ave and Académica.

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 13-05-2012, 18:16 Edited by: UploaderAfonso at: 13-05-2012, 18:28	Only V. Guimarăes didn't get the licence. The others clubs didn't ask, except Rio Ave and Académica. Actually almost all teams (behind the top 5 teams) didn't get the licence, the others simply didn't wanto to go there (besides Académica and Rio Ave).

Re: Very questions
Author: bert.kassies Date: 13-05-2012, 18:41	Yeah, I know. I rest my case.

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 13-05-2012, 19:21 Edited by: UploaderAfonso at: 13-05-2012, 19:22	The teams that go to UEFA competitions through Fair Play go to which phase of which competition?

Author: biagio
Date: 13-05-2012, 19:59

Uploader Afonso wrote "The teams that go to UEFA competitions through Fair Play go to which phase of which competition?"
Europa League Qualification Round 1

UploaderAfonso while it's good that you ask all these questions, some of them can be answered just looking around this beautiful and comprehensive site.
there are at least 3 pages on this site that answer your question :
2012/13 Access List https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/access2012.html
2012/13 Qualification https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/qual2012.html
Seeding in the Europa League 2012/2013 https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/seedel2012.html

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 13-05-2012, 20:12
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 13-05-2012, 20:13

UploaderAfonso while it's good that you ask all these questions, some of them can be answered just looking around this beautiful and comprehensive site.
there are at least 3 pages on this site that answer your question :
2012/13 Access List https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/access2012.html
2012/13 Qualification https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/qual2012.html
Seeding in the Europa League 2012/2013 https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/seedel2012.html

Ok, but some question can't be answered looking in this site! Some of them I already I ask! What about my other questions?

Anyway, the UEFA Ranking is so complex!

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 13-05-2012, 20:53

I could, but they are in portuguese!
Just post the links. Maybe I can understand them using Google Translate.

But what they wrote is right, I think, because Académica (our 6th team) qualified for, at least, the Q3 qualifying round of the Europa League, and if Rio Ave ended the season above them, it would have been them to to go to the Q3 of Europa League. If Académica won the Cup final against Sporting, they would go to the GS and Sporting to the Q4, being our 7th team (Académica)!
It isn't right. I will give you this example of last year:
Denmark was ranked 15th so they had 2 CL + 3 EL spots.
This was the final ranking of the Danish league in 2010-11:
1.FC Kobenhavn
2.Odense BK
3.Brondby
4.Midtjylland
5.Silkeborg
6.Nordsjaelland

Nordsjaelland won the Danish Cup 2010-11.

So when I follow your reasoning Danmark should have Kobenhavn and Odense in CL; Brondby, Midtjylland and Silkeborg in the EL, and Nordsjaelland in EL as Cup winners. So total 6 teams. You can see here that Silkeborg wasn't playing in Europe this season. That is because Denmark had the right for total 5 teams in Europe. So because 6th placed Nordsjaelland won the Cup they got to play in EL instead of 5th placed Silkeborg.
The same is true for Portugal this season. They have the right to total 6 teams, so that includes the Cup winner. So when that team is outside the top 6 in the league, they enter EL instead of the 6th placed team.

Nevertheless, thank you for answering to my questions! Can you answer my question about the European Golden Shoe?
Sorry, I don't knoe exactly how they calculate the Golden Shoe ranking.

And answer to this question: How can Marítimo go to Q3, like that site says? The League already ended and it finished in 5th!
It is not yet known yet in which round Maritimo enters EL. That depends on the winner of the Cup final. Portugal has spots in GS, Q4 and Q3. The Cup winner takes the highest spot.
If Sporting win the Cup they take the GS-spot, Maritimo takes the Q4 spot and the next in the league with a license (Academica) takes the Q3 spot.
If Academica win the Cup they take the GS-spot, Sporting takes the Q4 spot and Maritimo takes the Q3 spot.

In that site it says that Braga can only go to the Champions League's Q3, but it can go to Q4 if Chelsea beats Bayern Munich!
Untill the situation changes this site assumes the regular access list. Braga enters in CL-Q3 then. When Chelsea wins the CL, the access list will be changed to fill the gap in CL-Q4. That will (most likely) result in Braga entering in CL-Q4.

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 13-05-2012, 20:58
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 13-05-2012, 23:16

I could, but they are in portuguese!
Just post the links. Maybe I can understand them using Google Translate.

I found two:

http://www.maisfutebol.iol.pt/superliga-geral/iol/1347891-1676.html
http://www.record.xl.pt/Futebol/Nacional/1a_liga/academica/interior.aspx?conten
t_id=756438

But what they wrote is right, I think, because Académica (our 6th team) qualified for, at least, the Q3 qualifying round of the Europa League, and if Rio Ave ended the season above them, it would have been them to to go to the Q3 of Europa League. If Académica won the Cup final against Sporting, they would go to the GS and Sporting to the Q4, being our 7th team (Académica)!
It isn't right. I will give you this example of last year:
Denmark was ranked 15th so they had 2 CL + 3 EL spots.
This was the final ranking of the Danish league in 2010-11:
1.FC Kobenhavn
2.Odense BK
3.Brondby
4.Midtjylland
5.Silkeborg
6.Nordsjaelland

Nordsjaelland won the Danish Cup 2010-11.

So when I follow your reasoning Danmark should have Kobenhavn and Odense in CL; Brondby, Midtjylland and Silkeborg in the EL, and Nordsjaelland in EL as Cup winners. So total 6 teams. You can see here that Silkeborg wasn't playing in Europe this season. That is because Denmark had the right for total 5 teams in Europe. So because 6th placed Nordsjaelland won the Cup they got to play in EL instead of 5th placed Silkeborg.
The same is true for Portugal this season. They have the right to total 6 teams, so that includes the Cup winner. So when that team is outside the top 6 in the league, they enter EL instead of the 6th placed team.

Ok, I finally understand it!

And answer to this question: How can Marítimo go to Q3, like that site says? The League already ended and it finished in 5th!
It is not yet known yet in which round Maritimo enters EL. That depends on the winner of the Cup final.

How come it is not yet known, if our season ended with Marítimo in 5th place (Q4 of Europa League)? Regardless of the winner of the Portuguese Cup, that won't affect Marítimo, I think!

Another question: how come some countries that are simultaneously in Asia and Europe belong to UEFA? Did they have the right to choose to belong to UEFA or AFC? And how come some countries that are exclusively in Asia belong to UEFA, like Israel and Kazakhstan, etc?

10 - Why can Braga (among others) go to the playoff of the Champions League, instead of the 3rd qualifying round (they will finish our championship in 3rd), if Chelsea beat Bayern Munich in the Champions League Final?
If Chelsea win the CL, they qualify for the CL-Group Stage as Title Holders. Since there is a rule that no more then 4 clubs from each country can qualify for CL, the 4th ranked team in the English league will not qualify. So their spot in CL-Q4 is empty. That will be filled by moving a team from country ranked 6th (first country that doesn't have a spot in CL-Q4 yet) from CL-Q3 to CL-Q4. That is Braga from Portugal this season. And to make up for the remaining odd number of teams in CL-Q3, also the team from country 7 (Russia) will be moved up to CL-Q4

At which stage will go the 4th place team in the English League, then? To the Europa League's Q4?

Another questions:

The teams that go to UEFA competitions through Fair Play go to which stage of which competition?

Can the FIFA Club World Cup change the UEFA Ranking?

Author: shineB4
Date: 13-05-2012, 23:15

Afonso, boy you have many (!) questions

I`ve read both articles from which you gave the link and I can say that if that`s your sources they`re poor ones.

Here you can find the answers to your (many) questions with people who really understand the meanders of UEFA rankings. So it`s a bit of unkind from you to say other people are wrong when they only know more than you! Just because you think...

About Marítimo... in one post you wrote they finished 5th now you wrote they finished 4th...
Now serious Marítimo really finished 5th (behind Sporting, so they cannot start competing before the Lions) and no Cup final for them, so the best scenario for them is to start in QR4 (if Sporting win the Cup).
But let`s imagine Académica win the Cup to Sporting, in that case Académica qualify directly to GS, Sporting have to start in QR4 so that Marítimo have to start early in QR3 (precisely because they finished behind Sporting).
Marítimo always have to start a round earlier than Sporting no matter the outcome of Cup final!

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 13-05-2012, 23:22
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 13-05-2012, 23:29

Afonso, boy you have many (!) questions

What's this forum for? Did you read the title of topic?

I`ve read both articles from which you gave the link and I can say that if that`s your sources they`re poor ones.

You're saying that, because you don't understand portuguese probably (and the google translator sucks)...

Here you can find the answers to your (many) questions with people who really understand the meanders of UEFA rankings. So it`s a bit of unkind from you to say other people are wrong when they only know more than you! Just because you think...

Actually, I was right about the 6th (Académica) team that will go to Europa League, and they weren't (they said that it would be Rio Ave)...

About Marítimo... in one post you wrote they finished 5th now you wrote they finished 4th...

You're right, I wanted to say that it finished in 5th place.

Now serious Marítimo really finished 5th (behind Sporting, so they cannot start competing before the Lions) and no Cup final for them, so the best scenario for them is to start in QR4 (if Sporting win the Cup).
But let`s imagine Académica win the Cup to Sporting, in that case Académica qualify directly to GS, Sporting have to start in QR4 so that Marítimo have to start early in QR3 (precisely because they finished behind Sporting).
Marítimo always have to start a round earlier than Sporting no matter the outcome of Cup final!

I still can't understand why the outcome of the Portuguese Cup final can affect Marítimo! Why does Marítimo have to start a round earlier than Sporting? Because it ended the League behind it? But I thought the 5th place team would go to the Q4 of Europa League, in our case!

Can you answer my other questions?

Re: Very questions
Author: shineB4 Date: 13-05-2012, 23:35	Boy I was just precisely emphasising your topic title! Hope you get my point now! Now I ask what do you learn with those articles?? Please answer me this. They only tell random generalities. For your information I?m native Portuguese. It`s a bit annoying to transform answers in questions. I tried to make it the clearest possible and still you can?t believe it! It?s unbelievable!

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 13-05-2012, 23:40
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 13-05-2012, 23:47

Boy I was just precisely emphasising your topic title! Hope you get my point now!

Ok!

Now I ask what do you learn with those articles?? Please answer me this. They only tell random generalities. For your information I?m native Portuguese.

It`s a bit annoying to transform answers in questions. I tried to make it the clearest possible and still you can?t believe it! It?s unbelievable!

I think the answer to that question is too obvious, but nevertheless I will tell it. I want to learn more about the UEFA Ranking, that's all (why did you think I created a topic in here?)! Why it's unbelievable? Maybe for you, but for me it isn't, because there are so many exceptions and this is all so complex! And don't forget that I knew nothing two days ago! I think that what it is unbelievable is the fact that I now much more comparing to 2 days ago! What's the matter of you being a native portuguese? And just for you to know, we had in the past two teams that went to the Q4 of the Europa League that ended in the 4th and 5th places in the League! Anyway, could you please answer to my other questions?

Re: Very questions
Author: shineB4 Date: 13-05-2012, 23:57 Edited by: shineB4 at: 14-05-2012, 00:03	Now I ask what do you learn with those articles?? Please answer me this "we had in the past two teams that went to the Q4 of the Europa League that ended in the 4th and 5th places in the League!" Can you name the teams and tell in which season(s) it happened?

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 14-05-2012, 00:04
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 14-05-2012, 00:05

Now I ask what do you learn with those articles?? Please answer me this

What part of the sentence below you didn't understand?

"I think the answer to that question is too obvious, but nevertheless I will tell it. I want to learn more about the UEFA Ranking, that's all (why did you think I created a topic in here?)!"

That's what's really unbelievable!

I want to know at what stage a team will go in UEFA competitions, the number of teams per country, etc.

I tried to make it the clearest possible and still you can?t believe it! It?s unbelievable!

That's what I really should say now...

Re: Very questions
Author: shineB4 Date: 14-05-2012, 00:24	What is obvious is that you didn`t understand my question. And it was a simple one!! Let me rephrase it: What do you learn with those articles in particular (from iol-online and record, let me recall you) and the information in you got in those articles in comparison with the information you got in this forum?? I`m not asking what`s your purpose as I already understood it long time ago!!

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 14-05-2012, 00:30
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 14-05-2012, 00:34

What is obvious is that you didn`t understand my question. And it was a simple one!!
Let me rephrase it: What do you learn with those articles in particular (from iol-online and record, let me recall you) and the information in you got in those articles in comparison with the information you got in this forum?? I`m not asking what`s your purpose as I already understood it long time ago!!

What is obvious is that is was YOU who didn't understand my answer. I learn in those sites things about the UEFA Ranking (like I learn here) and about football in general! Can't I access whatever's site is on my mind (and read its information)? Please, let's quit this! Could you answer my other questions, or not?

Re: Very questions
Author: shineB4 Date: 14-05-2012, 00:37	Have you at least read those articles?? So tell me what learn with those articles if they happen to be so good

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 14-05-2012, 00:43
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 14-05-2012, 01:06

Have you at least read those articles?? So tell me what learn with those articles if they happen to be so good

Of course, or else I wouldn't give you the links. I learned that the 1st and 2nd League teams go to the GS of CL, the 3rd goes to the Q3 of CL (unless Chelsea wins the CL final), the 4th goes to the Q4 of EL (if it wins the Portuguese Cup it will go to the GS of EL), the 5th goes to the Q4 of EL and the 6th to the Q3 of EL (if they win the Portuguese Cup it will go to the GS of EL). If that is not good enough for you, I don't care, because for me it is, since I knew nothing about this two days ago!

What part of the sentence below you didn't understand?

"Please, let's quit this! Could you answer my other questions, or not?"

Keep talking about that subject and I won't answer you again. I didn't create a new topic to know if certain sites are good or not in terms of information!

Author: shineB4
Date: 14-05-2012, 01:13

haha that`s what I thought...

1 - In nowhere those articles talk about teams in CL (only indirectly refers Porto because it was Rio Ave`s last round of the league opponent.

2- The Record articles only talks about Académica and their possible to go directly to GS (if they win the Cup) or to have to start in QR3 (if they don`t win the Cup) and that happens because they surpassed Rio Ave in last round of the league.

3 - The iol-online article is longer but says pratically the same. The only difference is that because it was written before the last round of the league it states the possibility of Rio Ave to partipate in EL next year.

4 - Even worse. In nowhere of those articles is written a thing about the allocation (hope you understand this word) of portuguese teams in next year?s european competitions.

So who do you want to fool??? You can`t even understand what people is telling you in this forum. And then you quote poor articles as your bible and can`t accept what people is trying to tell you here, even belittling them. You look like a certain troll we have around here...
It`s me who won`t answer you. I won`t waste anymore time feeding the troll.

Author: executor
Date: 14-05-2012, 07:44
Edited by: executor
at: 14-05-2012, 07:46

UploaderAfonso: I still can't understand why the outcome of the Portuguese Cup final can affect Marítimo! Why does Marítimo have to start a round earlier than Sporting? Because it ended the League behind it? But I thought the 5th place team would go to the Q4 of Europa League, in our case!

OK, let's see if I can clear the fog...

Portugal has 3 spots in EL: one for the Cup winner and 2 for the next best placed teams in the league that aren't qualified for CL and didn't win the Cup. Clear till now?

These "next best placed teams" are labeled N4 and N5. I know this may be confusing for someone who isn't familiarized with rankings may think it will always mean the 4th and 5th placed teams. But it's not true. It MAY be so, but there are exceptions.

The CW spot will ALWAYS be the most important one. Meaning that the team that wins the Cup (and it's not qualified for CL) will always be allocated the best place to start (in this case the ELGS). If the CW is qualified for CL, the Cup finalist will go to EL, but in this case the CW spot will go to the best placed team behind CL places (4th in Portugal). If the Cup finalist is also qualified for CL, the 4th placed team gets the CW spot and another team in the league (6th placed) will go to EL.

Now, the Cup final will be Sporting CP - Academica. None of them will play CL, so the winner will go to the GS.

Case 1: Sporting CP wins the Cup. They take the CW spot (obviously, but in this topic you never know

). The "N4" spot will go to the next best placed team that isn't qualified for CL and didn't win the Cup (remember the 1st paragraph?). That will be Maritimo and they will start in Q4. Finally, the "N5" will go to the next best placed team (I see everyone is saying Academica). Just to be sure, Academica will not go to EL because they lost the Cup final to an already qualified Sporting CP, but because it seems there are no other Portuguese teams with a licence (normally it will be Guimaraes).

Case 2: Academica wins the Cup: They take the CW spot and will start in ELGS. The "N4" spot will go to the next best placed team that isn't qualified for CL and didn't win the Cup. That will be Sporting CP and they will start in Q4. Finally, the "N5" will go to the next best placed team in league, Maritimo which will start in QR3.

So, as you've seen, the stage in which Maritimo will start strongly depends on the Cup final.

And don't say you still don't understand it. There's no way anyone else can explain it better!!

EDIT: And if you check the Acces List you'll see that Portugal's "N5" will start in QR3, not QR4 as you wrote.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 14-05-2012, 10:41

How come it is not yet known, if our season ended with Marítimo in 5th place (Q4 of Europa League)? Regardless of the winner of the Portuguese Cup, that won't affect Marítimo, I think!
That is because the Cup winner takes the highest EL-spot (for Portugal that is GS now) and the other teams take the next EL spots in order of their league position. So the order of EL-spots depends on who wins the Cup final. If Sporting wins the order is: Sporting (GS), Maritimo (Q4), Academica (Q3). If Academica wins the order is: Academica (GS), Sporting (Q4), Maritimo (Q3).

Another question: how come some countries that are simultaneously in Asia and Europe belong to UEFA? Did they have the right to choose to belong to UEFA or AFC? And how come some countries that are exclusively in Asia belong to UEFA, like Israel and Kazakhstan, etc?
Countries that are both in Europe and Asia got to choose which federation they wanted to be part of. Russia has always been part of UEFA. Kazakhstan was part of AFC first but changed to UEFA later. Israel is a special case. They were part of AFC, but due to political reasons (most Arab countries refused to play Israel), they were allowed to enter UEFA instead after not been part of any federation for a period.

At which stage will go the 4th place team in the English League, then? To the Europa League's Q4?
They will go the the highest EL round where there is a vacancy. That can be either Q4 or GS depending on the round the CL winner qualified for or if there is a vacancy from the EL-winner.
Since Chelsea qualfied for EL-GS (as Cup winners) they leave a vacancy there when they are moved to CL, so Tottenham will enter in EL-GS when Chelsea wins the CL.

The teams that go to UEFA competitions through Fair Play go to which stage of which competition?
EL-Q1

Can the FIFA Club World Cup change the UEFA Ranking?
No, only the CL and EL count towards the UEFA-ranking. The UEFA Supercup and Club World Cup don't.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 14-05-2012, 10:59

I still can't understand why the outcome of the Portuguese Cup final can affect Marítimo! Why does Marítimo have to start a round earlier than Sporting? Because it ended the League behind it? But I thought the 5th place team would go to the Q4 of Europa League, in our case!
Portugal has 3 EL-spots. 1 in GS, 1 in Q4 and 1 in Q3. That is fixed, no matter who wins the Portuguese Cup!!!

UEFA rules say that the Cup winner takes the best EL-spot (GS for Portugal) and the next EL-spots are divided to the other qualified teams according to their league ranking. So Maritimo will be 5th in Portugal for sure, but that doesn't guarentee them a Q4 spot, since when Academica win the Cup they move ahead of them in the ranking for EL-spots.

And just for you to know, we had in the past two teams that went to the Q4 of the Europa League that ended in the 4th and 5th places in the League! Anyway, could you please answer to my other questions?
Portugal indeed had 2 Q4, 1 Q3 and 1 Q2 spot last season. But since Portugal has a higher ranking now (2010 9th, 2011 6th) and UEFA changed the rules that the CW's of countries 1-6 now enter GS directly that has changed into 1 GS, 1 Q4 and 1 Q3 spot.

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 14-05-2012, 14:15 Edited by: UploaderAfonso at: 14-05-2012, 14:42	Thank you! I finally understood it! This is so complex! I don't know how you know so much about it! Where can I see which teams are in which pots in CL and EL? Why is Portugal in 9th place instead of being in 5th here: https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/access2011.html https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/qual2011.html

Author: executor
Date: 14-05-2012, 15:21
Edited by: executor
at: 14-05-2012, 15:25

Where can I see which teams are in which pots in CL and EL?

HERE for CL and HERE for EL.

Why is Portugal in 9th place instead of being in 5th here:
https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/access2011.html
https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/qual2011.html

That's the Access List for 2011/12 i.e. the season that is about to finish on Saturday with the CL final. To see the Access List for 2012/13, the next season that will start in about a month, click HERE (Portugal is 6th).

The ranking in which Portugal is 5th (HERE) will be used to determine the Access List of 2013/14 season (one year from now).

EDIT: Since I can anticipate the next question

, the difference of 1 year bewteen the current ranking and the season it is used for is because teams need to know in advance (at the beginning of the domestic championship) how many Europlaces their country is allocated and at which stages each team starts.

For the Team ranking there is no delay.

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 14-05-2012, 15:42
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 14-05-2012, 15:53

Where can I see which teams are in which pots in CL and EL?

HERE for CL and HERE for EL.

But that simply indicates which teams will go to which stage, it doesn't indicate which teams will go to each Pot!

EDIT: Since I can anticipate the next question , the difference of 1 year bewteen the current ranking and the season it is used for is because teams need to know in advance (at the beginning of the domestic championship) how many Europlaces their country is allocated and at which stages each team starts.

For the Team ranking there is no delay.

Actually, I already knew that, since I already asked that, but thanks anyway!

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 14-05-2012, 16:50
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 14-05-2012, 16:52

But that simply indicates which teams will go to which stage, it doesn't indicate which teams will go to each Pot!
Not all participating teams are known yet, so it is to early to tell which teams will be in what Pot.
You can find a prediction based on current domestic tables and assuming seeded teams advance in each round here (CL) and here (EL).

Thank you! I finally understood it! This is so complex! I don't know how you know so much about it!
When I first got interested in these rankings and coefficients I also didn't know much about it, but I'm already around this site for many years and learned all these things during that time.

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 14-05-2012, 17:49
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 14-05-2012, 18:15

Thank you! I finally understood it! This is so complex! I don't know how you know so much about it!
When I first got interested in these rankings and coefficients I also didn't know much about it, but I'm already around this site for many years and learned all these things during that time.

Then imagine to learn as much as I did in 3 days!

Another questions:

Why do some countries have a playoff to decide which team will go to UEFA competitions (what stage will they go?), like Greece?

Can the runners-up of the English and French League Cups go to UEFA competitions?

Author: MalcolmW
Date: 14-05-2012, 19:02

National FAs have discretion on how to allocate their league places. Some choose to do it through play-offs (for excitement? For TV money? Who knows!).

No - the league cups in England and france only carry a place for winners - never for runners-up. The major domestic cup competition is the only one which can qualify losing finalists, and that's as a result of the former Cup Winners Cup (which accommodated losing cup finalists if the cup winners doubled as league champions.

(Spend some time reading all the separate articles on this site, please!!)

Re: Very questions
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 14-05-2012, 19:08	Why do some countries have a playoff to decide which team will go to UEFA competitions (what stage will they go?), like Greece? All the play-off systems in use are meant to make the league more interesting. If you don't consider San Marino then Netherlands started with this in 2006. A lot of countries followed with Belgium, Greece and Turkey as the main ones right now.

Author: Lorric
Date: 14-05-2012, 19:40

And I hate playoffs. They reward mediocrity. Unless the points are left alone.

When I saw the Georgian League playoffs though, I thought they had the best way I've seen so far for cutting points, by cutting out points against the teams not in the playoffs. It makes it a straight contest between the top teams then. It's also not too bad thinking about coefficients, as the team that does best against the best goes through.

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 15-05-2012, 12:13
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 15-05-2012, 13:35

Why do some countries have a playoff to decide which team will go to UEFA competitions (what stage will they go?), like Greece?

All the play-off systems in use are meant to make the league more interesting. If you don't consider San Marino then Netherlands started with this in 2006. A lot of countries followed with Belgium, Greece and Turkey as the main ones right now.

How many teams can go to UEFA competitions through playoff, at what stage each one of them will go (if there's more than one team that will go there) and it is contested by which teams (teams that ended the season in such positions of the League, winners/runners-up of the Domestic Cup, etc)?

In my opinion, I think that the playoff is very stupid and shouldn't exist, because a team that performs better in them may go to Europe, instead of the teams that performed better during the whole season! I think it is very unfair, because, basically, some games (playoff's games) turn out to be more important than many games (the League's games)! They are giving more importance to a pair of games instead to all the games of the League!

Another question: how come some countries that are simultaneously in Asia and Europe belong to UEFA? Did they have the right to choose to belong to UEFA or AFC? And how come some countries that are exclusively in Asia belong to UEFA, like Israel and Kazakhstan, etc?
Countries that are both in Europe and Asia got to choose which federation they wanted to be part of. Russia has always been part of UEFA. Kazakhstan was part of AFC first but changed to UEFA later. Israel is a special case. They were part of AFC, but due to political reasons (most Arab countries refused to play Israel), they were allowed to enter UEFA instead after not been part of any federation for a period.

But there are another countries, besides Israel, that are part of UEFA and are exclusively asian!

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 15-05-2012, 16:45

How many teams can go to UEFA competitions through playoff, at what stage each one of them will go (if there's more than one team that will go there) and it is contested by which teams (teams that ended the season in such positions of the League, winners/runners-up of the Domestic Cup, etc)?
Play-offs are different in each country.
This are the formats of the "main" countries with play-offs:
1.Netherlands: 6th-9th are playing 2 knock-out home-and-away rounds for 1 ELQ2-spot.
2.Greece: 2nd-5th play a league system. Teams start with bonus points calculated like this: (points of regular season - points of 5th placed team)/5. Winner qualifies for CLQ3, runner-up --> ELQ4, 3rd place --> ELQ3, 4th place --> ELQ2
3.Turkey: 1st-4th and 5th-8th play 2 seperate league systems. Teams start with 50% of the points of the regulare season. 1st-4th play for CL GS, CLQ3 and 2 EL-spots. 5th-8th play for 1 EL spot.
4.Belgium: Hold on and read carefully because this is the most complicated play-off ever!!! 1st-6th play a league system. Teams start with 50% of regulare season points. They play for 2 CLQ3 and 1 ELQ3 spot. 4th place goes to another play-off versus the winner of 7th-14th play-off; 7th-14th play in 2 seperate groups of 4 in a league system, group winners play each other home-and-away. Winner plays 4th place of 1st-6th play-off. Winner of that home-and-away match qualfies for ELQ2; 15th and 16th play best-of-5 play-off against relegation.

But there are another countries, besides Israel, that are part of UEFA and are exclusively asian!
The border between Europe and Asia is discussed upon. Some people consider Cyprus to be Asian, others say they are European. Georgia and Azerbaijan have at least a small strip of land in Europe if you consider the Caucasus mountains as the border. Armenia is in Asia. Kazakhstan is for a small part in Europe (Ural river is the border).

So only Armenia and Israel are completely Asian countries. Upon the break-up of Soviet Union the new countries got to choose between UEFA and AFC. Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia chose UEFA, Kazakhstan chose AFC, but changed to UEFA later on.

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 15-05-2012, 17:20
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 15-05-2012, 17:22

This might be the most stupid question of this entire topic, but why do some countries carry more teams to UEFA competitions than other? If the answer is: "because their League is more competitive", I think it's wrong, since in some countries of the top 6 (like Portugal), the championship is always won by the same team and the others by the same 2 teams (or 3, but rarely). That's competitivity? If you said that it is because they have stronger teams than in the countries that are below in the UEFA ranking, I would agree, but competitivity is different from strength. What I want to mean is that one League may have various teams fighting for the 1st palce, but comparing to other countries that are above it in UEFA ranking, they are very weak! Can you understand what I mean? It shouldn'te be based in competitivity but based in who has the strongest teams!

In my opinion, I think that the playoff is very stupid and shouldn't exist, because a team that performs better in them may go to Europe, instead of the teams that performed better during the whole season! I think it is very unfair, because, basically, some games (playoff's games) turn out to be more important than many games (the League's games)! They are giving more importance to a pair of games instead to all the games of the League!

Do you have the same opinion as I do?

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 15-05-2012, 17:36
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 15-05-2012, 17:39

This might be the most stupid question of this entire topic, but why do some countries carry more teams to UEFA competitions than other?
The position in the UEFA ranking determines how many teams each country can send into CL/EL:

1-3: 4 CL + 3 EL
4-6: 3 CL + 3 EL
7-9: 2 CL + 4 EL
10-15: 2 CL + 3 EL
16-51: 1 CL + 3 EL
52-53: 1 CL + 2 EL

Liechtenstein is an exception, since they have no league but only a Cup, so they can only send 1 team into EL.

In my opinion, I think that the playoff is very stupid and shouldn't exist, because a team that performs better in them may go to Europe, instead of the teams that performed better during the whole season!

It depends on the kind of play-off. I like the Dutch play-off system since it adds exitement to the teams in the middle of the table. Without play-offs these teams would have nothing to play for in the last matchdays. But with 9th place still enough to qualify for the play-offs almost each team has something to play for untill the end. This season after 32 MD's only 1 team had nothing to play for any more, and 8 of the 9 matches in the last MD were still important for at least 1 team.

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 15-05-2012, 18:50

This might be the most stupid question of this entire topic, but why do some countries carry more teams to UEFA competitions than other?
The position in the UEFA ranking determines how many teams each country can send into CL/EL:

1-3: 4 CL + 3 EL
4-6: 3 CL + 3 EL
7-9: 2 CL + 4 EL
10-15: 2 CL + 3 EL
16-51: 1 CL + 3 EL
52-53: 1 CL + 2 EL

Liechtenstein is an exception, since they have no league but only a Cup, so they can only send 1 team into EL.

That was not what I wanted to ask you! You are right, though, since I was wrong. I wanted you to talk about the competitivity, because I think it not based on competitivity, but in the results (wins or draws) at UEFA competitions, and it should be named as the ranking with countries with the strongest teams (not the most competitive). Please, read what's below:

"If the answer is: "because their League is more competitive", I think it's wrong, since in some countries of the top 6 (like Portugal), the championship is always won by the same team and the others by the same 2 teams (or 3, but rarely). That's competitivity? If you said that it is because they have stronger teams than in the countries that are below in the UEFA ranking, I would agree, but competitivity is different from strength. What I want to mean is that one League may have various teams fighting for the 1st palce, but comparing to other countries that are above it in UEFA ranking, they are very weak! Can you understand what I mean? It shouldn'te be based in competitivity but based in who has the strongest teams!".

Without play-offs these teams would have nothing to play for in the last matchdays. But with 9th place still enough to qualify for the play-offs almost each team has something to play for untill the end

And what's the matter about it? It's good for football addicts! Ours doesn?t have nothing to play for, and it's ok (in my opinion)!

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 15-05-2012, 19:18

It shouldn'te be based in competitivity but based in who has the strongest teams!
Well, it is based on the strenght of the teams.
On the strenght of teams playing in CL and EL, not on strenght of the teams in the league inself. The last would be impossible since there is no objective way to compare the strenght of all the teams in 1 league compared to the teams in another league.

The only way to compare leagues is when teams play against teams from other leagues. And that is done in CL and EL, so that is what determines how many teams each league can send into future CL and EL.

Author: executor
Date: 15-05-2012, 20:06

@UploaderAfonso

You asked, at the beginning at this topic: Could you explain to me what the Fair Play Ranking is (and why, not counting with England, the countries that have one extra team are frequently countries whose football is not very good), how many extra teams a country can carry, etc?

Well, here is an example why Nothern countries, especially Norway, get an extra spot through the Fair Play ranking:

http://www.blogphotovideo.com/sport/fair-play-goal-of-the-year

And this is not the first time I hear of such case. Now, how often does that happen in the Southern part of Europe?

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 15-05-2012, 20:27
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 15-05-2012, 20:28

@UploaderAfonso

You asked, at the beginning at this topic: Could you explain to me what the Fair Play Ranking is (and why, not counting with England, the countries that have one extra team are frequently countries whose football is not very good), how many extra teams a country can carry, etc?

Well, here is an example why Nothern countries, especially Norway, get an extra spot through the Fair Play ranking:

http://www.blogphotovideo.com/sport/fair-play-goal-of-the-year

And this is not the first time I hear of such case. Now, how often does that happen in the Southern part of Europe?

You're right, but I still can't understand how the northern europe's women's teams can influence the Fair Play ranking (Europa League and Champions League aren't even played by women!)...

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 16-05-2012, 11:24
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 16-05-2012, 11:30

You're right, but I still can't understand how the northern europe's women's teams can influence the Fair Play ranking (Europa League and Champions League aren't even played by women!)...
It's not only the CL and EL matches that count for Fair Play ranking, but also national team matches for both men and women and youth.

We also had a similar case in the Netherlands in a Cup match between Ajax 2 and Cambuur in 2005-06: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPk-wmqP5ec&feature=player_embedded.
Allthough Cambuur almost messed it up there.

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 16-05-2012, 19:10
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 16-05-2012, 19:13

You're right, but I still can't understand how the northern europe's women's teams can influence the Fair Play ranking (Europa League and Champions League aren't even played by women!)...
It's not only the CL and EL matches that count for Fair Play ranking, but also national team matches for both men and women and youth.

We also had a similar case in the Netherlands in a Cup match between Ajax 2 and Cambuur in 2005-06: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPk-wmqP5ec&feature=player_embedded.
Allthough Cambuur almost messed it up there.

But I think that that's stupid, because the Europa League, the Champions League and the national competitions of each country aren't played by women and youth! It looks like the women's game count very much, because of what you wrote... Why do women's games influence so much your ranking? In my opinion, it should only count the men's fair play, since the competitions are played by men. The women's fair play should only count in the competitions that are played by women and the youth's fair play should ony count in the competitions that are played by youth!

Re: Very questions
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 16-05-2012, 19:22	Yes, I agree with you there. They should only rank the Fair Play in CL and EL and award the 3 FP-spots according to that ranking. Right now men's clubs profit from rankings made up also from national team matches. That is strange indeed.

Author: Lorric
Date: 16-05-2012, 20:15
Edited by: Lorric
at: 16-05-2012, 20:17

It is strange, but they want to reward the nation and national players, not foreign mercenaries. Ranking national team matches will help with that.

It's a minor detail anyway. It's not as if those places are being taken away from anyone. I don't know, but I'd guess they were tacked on to make up some numbers at the time.

The culture of a nation though still has the bigget impact. People in these countries wouldn't stand for divers and cheaters.

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 16-05-2012, 20:36

@Lorric, maybe your feeling about fair play is different from the regulations. I don't know if they changed it lately, but cheating and diving is not a criterium, in itself.

On the assessement form are six criteria:

1. Red and yellow cards: max 10 points
2. Positive play: minimum 1 point, maximum 10 points
3. Respect of the opponent: minimum 1 point, maximum 5 points
4. Respect of the referee: minimum 1 point, maximum 5 points
5. Behaviour of team officials: minimum 1 point, maximum 5 points
6. Behaviour of the crowd: minimum 1 point, maximum 5 points

My personal opinion on fair play is that UEFA should give a very nice and big reward to the winning nations/clubs, but they should not reward it with Europa League spots.

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 16-05-2012, 20:41 Edited by: UploaderAfonso at: 16-05-2012, 20:42	Which team will go to Europa League through fair-play (in what position it ended the League and what stage will it go in Europa League)?

Author: Lorric
Date: 16-05-2012, 20:51

@ Bert

Yes, I did know that, but it was good to be reminded that cards is but one of several factors.

It is quite strange when you really stop and think about it. About how it came to be, who's idea it was, why, and how it got through to fruition. It's always just been "there" really.

Still, it's better than just putting the names of every top flight club in Europe that didn't qualify in a hat and pulling 3 teams.

Re: Very questions
Author: bert.kassies Date: 16-05-2012, 20:53	See UEFA Fair Play Competition

Re: Very questions
Author: bert.kassies Date: 16-05-2012, 20:54	Haha Loric, thats true.

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 16-05-2012, 20:58

Another one on the "Positive play" criterium:

Positive aspects:
- attacking rather then defensive tactics
- acceleration of the game
- efforts to gain time, e.g. bringing the ball quickly back into play, even when in a winning position
- continued pursuit of goals, even if the desired result (e.g. qualification or an away draw) has already been achieved
Negative aspects:
- deceleration of the game
- time-wasting
- tactics based on foul play
- play-acting, etc.

Some aspects are strange, I think. Why would continued pursuit of goals be positive for fair play? As if good defense is without honor ...

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 16-05-2012, 21:10 Edited by: UploaderAfonso at: 16-05-2012, 21:10	Negative aspects: - deceleration of the game I didn't know that the footbal from northern europe's countries was fast...

Author: Lorric
Date: 16-05-2012, 21:12
Edited by: Lorric
at: 16-05-2012, 21:13

I would guess it's another string to the bow to stamp out timewasting tactics. You can still be defensive I would think. Have a defensive formation with an offensive mentality. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Play a defensive formation for some extra protection, but be looking forward towards the opponent's goal, not back at your own.

@ UploaderAfonso

I've always considered it to be. High tempo, high fitness, low foul count.

Author: Friesland
Date: 16-05-2012, 21:15
Edited by: Friesland
at: 17-05-2012, 03:22

It not really an award when a relegated team is forced to play European football this way, like BK Häcken (0.600 penalty for Sweden that time), and this year we almost had Excelsior as well...

If it were really an award, it shouldn't be a burden to the League Ranking.

So, was it really an award?

2009-10
Fair Play team Rosenborg was a 0.100 bonus for Norway.
Fair Play team Randers was a 0.025 bonus for Denmark.
Fair Play team Motherwell was a 0.134 penalty for Scotland

2010-11
Fair Play team MyPa was a 0.675 bonus for Finland.
Fair Play team Gefle was a 0.150 penalty for Sweden.
Fair Play team Randers was a 0.925 penalty for Denmark.

2011-12
Fair Play team Aalesund was a 0.800 bonus for Sweden.
Fair Play team Hacken was a 0.400 bonus for Sweden.
Fair Play team Fulham was a 0.446 to 0.482 penalty for England.

So, since it has become "easier" for FP teams to do better than there national average, there a still 4 out of 9 that have failed to do so. Especially Randers last season and Fulham this season look far from being an award...

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 16-05-2012, 21:15
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 16-05-2012, 21:36

I've always considered it to be. High tempo, high fitness, low foul count.

What is the football acceleration of the northern europe's countries compared to the one's of the top 6 countries?

I agree with you that it is hard to believe that a top-6 association cannot send more clubs to European football. And it's true that there is no official confirmation.

We even had a team that, some weeks ago, played for the League in their stadium with only 8 players (instead of 11), wihout having any substitute, against 11 men, because 16 players left the club because of the very bad economic situation they were (and are) and the club was (and is). 4 of the 8 players were loaned from Benfica (who paid their salaries), 2 were juniors and the other 2 left gave up from the rescission (from the 16)! They lost the game by 0-4 and finised this season in the last place, being relegated to the second level. They weren't paid for 4 or 5 months! Unfortunately, they are not the only cub that doesn't pay their players for months (in the first level)! In the second level there are various clubs that doesn't pay their players either! Because of that, many clubs can?t go to UEFA competitions, like Vitória de Guimarăes. It was said that 80% of our clubs (in all levels, I think) don't pay their players! Not to talk about that the majority of the clubs in the first level has a budget inferior to 1 million euros!

Author: Lorric
Date: 16-05-2012, 21:19
Edited by: Lorric
at: 16-05-2012, 21:25

England, Germany and France are all in the North.

That leaves Spain, Portugal and Italy.

From what I've seen, Spain and Portugal prefer a slower, more controlled game. But at the same time, they can turn it up whan they want to. Spain is faster and fitter than Portugal.

Italy is just slow. WIth the odd exception. Slow play, older players. English sides tend to destroy Italian ones for tempo. They can't handle it. Though Italian clubs performed much better vs. English this year. Enough to make me bring it up a while back.

Re: Very questions
Author: Lorric Date: 16-05-2012, 21:22 Edited by: Lorric at: 16-05-2012, 21:26	@ Freisland It is in the sense you get an extra team in Europe. It is likely the score would go down with an extra team anyway. I did a topic on it not long ago, and only Finland have profitted coefficient wise by having fair play teams, and Denmark lost 2 whole points to it.

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 16-05-2012, 21:39 Edited by: UploaderAfonso at: 16-05-2012, 21:39	From what I've seen, Spain and Portugal prefer a slower, more controlled game. But at the same time, they can turn it up whan they want to. Spain is faster and fitter than Portugal. What about the football from the northern europe's countries? It must be faster than the english one to constantly have teams that go to Europa League through the Fair Play ranking...

Re: Very questions
Author: executor Date: 16-05-2012, 22:18	Friesland: It not really an award when a relegated team is forced to play European football this way, like BK Häcken* or Dunfermline Athletic, and this year we almost had Excelsior as well...* some lines down... Fair Play team Hacken was a 0.400 bonus for Sweden. LOL! Yeah, it's not fair to have a relegated team scoring more than the average of the non-relegated ones!

Re: Very questions
Author: Lorric Date: 16-05-2012, 23:34	I would say the English league is the fastest, but the players are fast and fit in the Northern countries.

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 17-05-2012, 01:20	I would say the English league is the fastest, but the players are fast and fit in the Northern countries. Does England usually have more teams that go to Europa League through Fair Play than the northern countries?

Author: Lorric
Date: 17-05-2012, 02:32
Edited by: Lorric
at: 17-05-2012, 02:34

Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Respect_Fair_Play_ranking

It's been in place for 18 seasons, and England have achieved 7 fair play qualifications. England also topped the fair play table three times.

It doesn't say on there, and I don't want to check to see if any nation has achieved more, but 7/18 is pretty damn good.

EDIT: Norway might be the best. 11 qualifications, and 7 toppings of the fair play table. Topped the fair play table 3 times in the last 4 years.

England have a friendly with Norway coming up...

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 17-05-2012, 02:36
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 17-05-2012, 02:37

Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Respect_Fair_Play_ranking

It's been in place for 18 seasons, and England have achieved 7 fair play qualifications. England also topped the fair play table three times.

It doesn't say on there, and I don't want to check to see if any nation has achieved more, but 7/18 is pretty damn good.

Yes, it is, but the northern europe countries have very qualifications, too! And I was being ironic, of course (about the speed of the football from northern europe's countries be superior than the english one).

Re: Very questions
Author: Friesland Date: 17-05-2012, 03:37 Edited by: Friesland at: 17-05-2012, 03:44	@ Executor: Häcken qualified twice as Fair Play team. As a second level team (in 2007), they were a burden (0.600 penalty) for Sweden.

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 17-05-2012, 16:44
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 17-05-2012, 16:47

As a second level team (in 2007), they were a burden (0.600 penalty) for Sweden.

That's why that the fair play ranking shouldn't exist! In my opinion, it shouldn't exist at all! Our teams behind the 4th place in the League don't even pass the qualifying rounds of the Europa League, so it's a burden too! And this year, we even carry a team that ended the season in 13th place!

What does it mean "seeded"?

Re: Very questions
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 17-05-2012, 17:07	What does it mean "seeded"? Seeded means a team will be in Pot 1 for a knock-out round draw. So the team can't draw another seeded team (that is the 50% teams with the highest coefficient can't draw each other).

Author: Friesland
Date: 17-05-2012, 17:16

The only problem with the Fair Play ranking is that they use it to award extra spots to countries. I think there is nothing against awarding Norway a Trophy for finishing in first place of that ranking. It should be a prize for the national football association, not for some teams that had nothing to do with it in the first place.

In a draw one half of the teams is "seeded" and the other half is "unseeded." A seeded team is always drawn against an unseeded team. This way, the "best" teams can't be drawn against each other, because they are all seeded. The order is based on the team results in Europe in the past five years. So at the draw the fifth place team from the same country might be considered "better" than the first or second placed team. For example, the ranking considers Arsenal (third place in England) to be "better" than Manchester City (Champions of England).

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 17-05-2012, 19:08 Edited by: UploaderAfonso at: 17-05-2012, 19:08	It looks like my club Benfica didn't stay in the Pot 1 of the CL for just 1 place. Why did Atlético de Madrid went up 15 positions just for winning the Europa League, being now in 8th place in the UEFA Team Ranking?

Author: Friesland
Date: 17-05-2012, 19:24

It's the points over 5 years. So, the 2006/07 season is dropped. Atletico scored 0 points that year, and 30 points this season, so they gained about 30 points. Benfica got 16 points in the 2006/07 season and 21 points this season, so they only gained about 5 points from the 2010/11 ranking.

These differences are not exact because all teams also get a part (20%) of the country coefficient. Portugal had a coefficient of 8.083 in 2007 and 11.833. That is a gain of 3.750. 20% of 3.75 is 0.75. So Benfica gained exactly 5.75 points in this season.

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 17-05-2012, 20:47	How many clubs there are in each Pot? FC Porto was placed in the first Pot because Inter and Atlético Madrid didn't qualify for the CL.

Re: Very questions
Author: Lorric Date: 17-05-2012, 21:10	And remember, that's their second Europa League win. They've become the new Sevilla. (Sevilla won the Europa League twice and it put them in the top pot.)

Author: Friesland
Date: 17-05-2012, 21:40

There are as many in each pot as there are groups. So in each Champions League (8 groups) pot there are 8 teams, while in each Europa League (12 groups) pot there are 12 teams.

Since Porto in ranked 9th, they needed just one of the first 8 fail to qualify. Benfica is ranked 14th, so they are sure in pot 2, but if 6 teams from the top-13 fail to qualify they will go in pot 1. However, at most 5 of them will fail to qualify, so Benfica can't go in pot 1 any more.

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 17-05-2012, 22:09
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 17-05-2012, 22:17

And remember, that's their second Europa League win.

They've become the new Sevilla.

(Sevilla won the Europa League twice and it put them in the top pot.)

Actually Sevilla won the UEFA Cup twice not the Europa League, and FC Porto won the UEFA Cup and the Europa League plus 5 other UEFA titles (7 UEFA titles in total).

Why does the Europa League have more teams than the Champions League (and because of that one more stage)?

Why can?t each league have a team for each stage? For example: one for the Q1 of the EL, other for the Q2 of the EL, other for the Q3 of the EL, other for the Q4 of the EL, other for the GS of the EL, other for the Q1 of the CL, other for the Q2 of the CL, other for the Q3 of the CL, other for the Q4 of the CL and other for the GS of the CL? The clubs that go to the Q1 and Q2 of the EL and CL are from weak Leagues, right? Is there a country whose winner go to the Q1 of the CL? I think that it is stupid that a team can go to the GS of the CL through the League, but can?t go to the GS of the EL through the League...

Re: Very questions
Author: Lorric Date: 17-05-2012, 22:51 Edited by: Lorric at: 17-05-2012, 22:51	Details... Too big. Everyone with 10 teams in Europe? Bottom 6 go to Q1 of the CL. Bottom 4 without use of the TH spot.

Re: Very questions
Author: Lorric Date: 17-05-2012, 22:53	Oh, and UploaderAfonso, I'd like to see you in there: https://kassiesa.net/uefa//forum/view.php?topic=20120309203037.xml

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 17-05-2012, 23:27	Bottom 6 go to Q1 of the CL. Bottom 4 without use of the TH spot. How is that? I didn't understand... Oh, and UploaderAfonso, I'd like to see you in there: https://kassiesa.net/uefa//forum/view.php?topic=20120309203037.xml Why?

Re: Very questions
Author: Lorric Date: 18-05-2012, 00:59	If the TH spot isn't used, it is filled by the Champion of the 13th ranked nation. Which sees the 16th ranked nation move to Q3 and the 48th and 49th ranked nations move to Q2. I am curious as to why you are so interested in all this, insatiable one.

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 18-05-2012, 01:41 Edited by: UploaderAfonso at: 18-05-2012, 13:57	If the TH spot isn't used, it is filled by the Champion of the 13th ranked nation. Which sees the 16th ranked nation move to Q3 and the 48th and 49th ranked nations move to Q2. What does TH mean? I just want to know the rules, that's all!

Re: Very questions
Author: nemesys Date: 18-05-2012, 01:55 Edited by: nemesys at: 18-05-2012, 01:56	^^___ Few acronyms used in this forum. TH = Title Holder CL = Champions League EL = Europa League CW = (domestic) Cup Winner RU = Runner Up CWC = Cup Winners Cups H2H = Head To Head Just trying to help, please anyone correct anything wrong. Cheers! - nemesys

Re: Very questions
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 18-05-2012, 10:55	So TH means the winner of the previous season of the CL/EL. So Atletico Madrid is the TH of the Europa League next season. And so they can start directly in the group stage and are seeded in Pot 1.

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 19-05-2012, 00:12 Edited by: UploaderAfonso at: 19-05-2012, 00:13	I just read that FC Porto asked for the relegation of Marítimo. What would happen if Marítimo went to the second level? Would it still be able to play in the Europa League or would it be replaced by another team (and which team)? Anyway, our football is a joke just like our country, just for you to know... So many problems...

Re: Very questions
Author: bert.kassies Date: 19-05-2012, 10:52	Where do you read such news, Alfonso? It would be nice if you put some links. Or are it just rumours?

Re: Very questions
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 19-05-2012, 11:15	If a team would be relegated then they should normally be put at the last place in the standings, so then all other teams move up 1 spot. What is the reason why Porto asked for relegation of Maritimo?

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 19-05-2012, 16:05	Where do you read such news, Alfonso? It would be nice if you put some links. Or are it just rumours? They are in Portuguese: http://www.record.xl.pt/Futebol/Nacional/1a_liga/Porto/interior.aspx?content_id =757577 http://www.maisfutebol.iol.pt/fcporto/fc-porto-pede-descida-maritimo-caso-klebe r-recurso-tribunais-comuns/1349454-1304.html

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 19-05-2012, 16:07
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 19-05-2012, 16:12

If a team would be relegated then they should normally be put at the last place in the standings, so then all other teams move up 1 spot.

So then Marítimo would go to the Q3 of Europa League (in place of Académica), in spite of being demoted to the second level, and Académica would take its place in the Q4 of Europa League (or GS of Europa League if they beat Sporting in the the Portuguese Cup final)?

What is the reason why Porto asked for relegation of Maritimo?

I think it has to do with a decision from Maritímo to go to the ordinary court about the Kléber case.

Author: executor
Date: 19-05-2012, 16:31

UploaderAfonso: So then Marítimo would go to the Q3 of Europa League (in place of Académica), in spite of being demoted to the second level, and Académica would take its place in the Q4 of Europa League (or GS of Europa League if they beat Sporting in the the Portuguese Cup final)?

:facepalm:

Man, you're getting things really hard, don't you?

He was reffering at domestic league rankings, not "the ranking of teams that go to Europe". That means Maritimo would be 16th in the league, Academica would take their place (if they lose Cup final) and Rio Ave would take Academica's place. If Academica would win the Cup, then Rio Ave would take Maritimo's spot.

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 19-05-2012, 17:39
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 19-05-2012, 17:41

Author: executor
Date: 19-05-2012, 18:18

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 19-05-2012, 18:32
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 20-05-2012, 03:05

OK, one more try.

The list of teams that go to Eurocups is determined by the FINAL rankings of the championship. Right now, the ranking is NOT final.

IF Maritimo would be relegated for non-sporting reasons (i.e. going to civil court), then they would be deducted a lot of points in order to justify this. Let's say 50 pts, what they currently have. So, they would end up 16th with 0 pts, Leiria 15th, Feirense 14th (thus spared of relegation), Rio Ave 13th, .... , Academica 11th etc.

That would be the FINAL ranking.

Then, the list of teams that go to Eurocups is made. 3 CL + CW plus next 2 in the league. So, for EL, we would have 2 scenarios depending on the Cup Winner:

1: CW Sporting, N4: Academica, N5: Rio Ave
2. CW Academica, N4: Sporting, N5: Rio Ave

BTW, how was at kindergarden today?

Ok, I understand. But since you know so much about this, who would replace Marítimo in the first level? The team who finised the second level in the 3rd place? Chelsea won the CL, so Braga will go to the Q4 of Champions League, as well as the 2nd place team of the russian League, the 3rd place team of the french League and the 3rd place team of the italian League.

By the way, how was at school yesterday? Will you take an "A" in the test about the UEFA Rankings?

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 20-05-2012, 23:06 Edited by: UploaderAfonso at: 21-05-2012, 02:00	So Académica won the Portuguese Cup and because of that will go to the GS of EL, Sporting will go to the Q4 of EL and Marítimo will go to the Q3 of EL. Another question: what happens if the winner of the Domestic Cup, the winner of the League Cup and the runners-up of the Domestic Cup that lost against an already qualified CL team, doesn't fulfill UEFA's requirements?

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 21-05-2012, 10:31

Another question: what happens if the winner of the Domestic Cup, the winner of the League Cup and the runners-up of the Domestic Cup that lost against an already qualified CL team, doesn't fulfill UEFA's requirements?
If the winner of a Cup gets no licence, the spot goes to the losing finalist.
If the winner of a league Cup or the losing finalist of a Cup gets no licence the spot goes to the next team in the league.

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 22-05-2012, 01:37 Edited by: UploaderAfonso at: 22-05-2012, 02:18	It looks like Benfica missed Pot 1 for 2 places and not for 1, unlike what I read it would before the CL final... Valencia is 1 place ahead of Benfica in Pot 2.

Re: Very questions
Author: executor Date: 22-05-2012, 07:17	And the reason is ........ (drumroll) ..... Chelsea! If Bayern would've won the final, Chelsea wouldn't have been in CL, therefor Benfica would've been one place higher.

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 22-05-2012, 16:14 Edited by: UploaderAfonso at: 23-05-2012, 15:54	And the reason is ........ (drumroll) ..... Chelsea! If Bayern would've won the final, Chelsea wouldn't have been in CL, therefor Benfica would've been one place higher. Ok, it looks like... (drumroll)... the sites in which I read the information are wrong.

Re: Very questions
Author: UploaderAfonso Date: 30-05-2012, 04:02 Edited by: UploaderAfonso at: 30-05-2012, 04:02	I read that Marítimo and Nacional asked for Sporting's relegation. This joke never ends...

Author: Madeirense
Date: 30-05-2012, 13:18

Afonso,

As somebody very much involved with Marítimo and being a personal friend of Marítimo?s president, I would like to react to your statement that you consider it a joke when somebody unknown, suddenly for no apparent reason whatsoever, deposits an amount of 2000 Euros on the account of the assistant referee José Cardinal a few days before he was to act as a linesman for the game in the quarterfinal of the Portuguese Cup, Sporting-Marítimo. Obviously José Cardinal was subsequently replaced before the game took place.

As you know, the Portuguese Football Federation and the Portuguese Criminal Police have opened an official enquiry in order to find the responsible people for this illegal act. In this investigation,three people have officially been named as suspects, ("arguido" in Portuguese) by the Criminal Police, namely Paulo Pereira Cristovăo , Vice-President of Sporting, a second person who apparently made the deposit, and a third person involved in this case and connected to the Vice-President of Sporting. Furthermore, as is publicly known, the Criminal Police made 10 searches in offices and companies, four of them connected to Sporting. A further search in cars and and headquarters of Sporting have also taken place.

Considering the above-mentioned facts, it is presumed that somebody is trying to slander somebody and/or a club. As you should know, the crime of qualified slanderous denunciation can be found in article 365 of the criminal code of the Portuguese law and is punished with imprisonment up to three years or by a fine.

As the deposit was made on the lineman?s account via a bank in Madeira a few days before the game Sporting-Marítimo took place, and as Marítimo?s good name and reputation are involved, Marítimo has officially requested the Portuguese Football Federation to thoroughly and immediately investigate this case, and, because of the fact that the vice-president of Sporting and two other people connected to him have officially been indicted as suspects in this case, Marítimo has requested that if and when the suspects and the club they represent are proven guilty, that immediate action be taken and the necessary punishment be applied as mentioned in the Regulations of the Portuguese Football Competitions.

I repeat, It is obvious that Marítimo did not specifically request that Sporting be demoted. Marítimo demanded, if proven guilty, that the necessary disciplinary action be taken against these three suspects and the club they belong to according to the existing Regulations for the Portuguese Football Competitios. If the result of the investigation by the Portuguese Football Federation happens to be the decision to demote Sporting, so be it. If the decision happens to be a large fine for Sporting so be it. But I repeat, Marítimo did not ask specifically for Sporting?s demotion, it asked for for strong disciplinary actionand punitive measures be taken against Sporting and the people involved according to the existing Football Regulations

Let it also be known that this same Vice President of Sporting, Paulo
Pereira Cristovăo was punished by the Portuguese Football Federation for his actions and behaviour in the said match Sporting-Maritimo.

Considering Nacional?s apparent complaint of which I do not know the exact details, I have read in the newspapers that apparently the same Vice-President of Sporting, Paulo Pereira Cristovăo seems to have travelled the day before the game Nacional-Sporting for the semi finals of the Portuguese Cup, together with the team of the official referees and spent the one and a half hour trip by plane between Lisbon and Madeira in the company of the referee and linesmen, it does seem that Nacional has actually made an official request to investigate the behaviour of this same Vice-President, and if proven guilty, that he and the club he represents be duly punished according to the existing Regulations of the Portuguese Football Competitions

I would like to finish by saying it does not become you to consider this very serious matter as a joke. It is hard to believe that you actually approve of the illegal behaviour and actions of people directly connected to football clubs and holding high and very responsible positions in that club, and that the eventual disciplinary action to be taken is a joke to you. I would furthermore request of you in the future not to let yourself always to be influenced by your obvious dislike and apparent hatred of the Madeira football clubs and every other matter that comes from or is connected to the island Madeira. Your cyninism does not become you!!

Author: UploaderAfonso
Date: 30-05-2012, 22:16
Edited by: UploaderAfonso
at: 31-05-2012, 11:37

Madeirense, what I wanted to say when I did that statement wasn't to criticize Marítimo and Nacional, but to criticize the amount of corruption in our country that even extends to football. Some weeks ago FC Porto asked for Marítimo's relegation... Since when I told that I hated Madeira or its football, or told that I approved that illegal behaviour? I still don't know how FC Porto's president isn't in jail and FC Porto entered in the champions league in that year, as well as a former president of my club (Joăo Vale e Azevedo), Benfica, isn't in jail after being sentenced to jail, here in Portugal (he fled, after this decision, to London where he still is now, waiting for the High Court's decision, after the magistrate's court of Westminster sentenced him to extradition to Portugal) and not to mention the Boavista's case, where it went to the second level, because of corruption, and then to the third level (second division) because of a debt of 159 000 euros, and some months ago the Administrative Court considered null the reunion between the Council of Justice and the Portuguese Federation of Football that, in the end of the season 2007/2008, confirmed the relegation of the club to the second league (second level) because of corruption, so Boavista might return to the first level by the same way it was demoted to the second, i.e., by the legal way, and the current president of Benfica was caught by eavesdropping, choosing the referees for certain games, as well as the current president of FC Porto, among many others cases of corruption...

By the way, the current president of Académica was sentenced to 6 and a half years to prison for abuse of power and corruption.

The corruption in our country (and football) will never end! It's not for nothing that our country constantly ends the european rankings of corruption in the last positions...