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Author: jojo
Date: 08-05-2012, 20:43

Hello,

first of all, I'd like to thanks Bert for his fantastic work

I hope I can open new topic as a new member.

If you have a look at coefficients on UEFA website, they divided all turkish points by 5 (teams) this season, not by 4 like you. I know there are problems because ban of Fenerbahce, but season is ending and we have got two different rankings because that.

So, I'd like to know, if there is some mistake at UEFA website, or their ranking is final?

Re: Turkey : 4 or 5 teams?
Author: theturk Date: 08-05-2012, 21:03	can you refer some official link about this topic from uefa's website?

Re: Turkey : 4 or 5 teams?
Author: jojo Date: 08-05-2012, 21:06	http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/index.html

Re: Turkey : 4 or 5 teams?
Author: Lorric Date: 08-05-2012, 21:39 Edited by: Lorric at: 08-05-2012, 21:41	That's a potentially big deal. That would put Turkey's all important 12th place start in next year's rankings in peril when before it looked pretty safe. Bert thought they would "fix" the "error", but if it's still there this late in the game, I guess they're sticking with a divide by 5 which will cost Turkey 1.525pts and cut their lead in 12th next year from 2.700 to 1.175.

Author: flob
Date: 08-05-2012, 21:45
Edited by: flob
at: 08-05-2012, 23:42

The problem is, the UEFA website changed it's intermediate ranking in the middle of the season (somewhere last fall).

Originally they had same the ranking as published by Bert now.

I know Bert - like me - as a man very reluctant to such 'unofficial' changes, even if it's published on the UEFA website (which isn't really known to be error free, btw

)

I'm sure, as soon as UEFA publishes any offical coefficients, he will adjust this site, if necessary.

EDIT: Btw, it's not just about 4 vs. 5 teams, they also removed the points Trabzonspor earned for Turkey in ELQ4. Inconsequently, these 0.5 points still count for their opponent Atlethic Bilbao.

Re: Turkey : 4 or 5 teams?
Author: Lorric Date: 08-05-2012, 21:50 Edited by: Lorric at: 08-05-2012, 21:52	There are some other strange goings on. England's coefficient matches up on both there and here, but Spain only has 19.428, and Germany only 14.916. The difference for Germany is minor, but Spain are over a point down. Can't they just boot whoever's running things over there and put money in Bert's pocket to do the same job?

Author: Ricardo
Date: 08-05-2012, 22:01

Since when is that? I remember there was a discussion after Fenerbahce was dismissed, if Turkey should count as 4 or 5. I only got convinced about the 4 because of this site, I mean the UEFA.com site. So I am surprised about it though I am very much for it (based on the fact that a team is withdrawn because of frauds, though I am very surprised that domestically the team will not be punished at all. Actually impossible to hold on to the original decision, but the season is over, Fenerbahce can not be put back in CL ( yes, let them play a semifinal

)
I have the feeling this is the correction from the first counting with 4, and that it won't be re-corrected anymore.

Author: flob
Date: 08-05-2012, 22:02
Edited by: flob
at: 08-05-2012, 22:09

@Lorric:

Didn't I say UEFA website is not error free?

To be serious, this is normal, I noticed this many times over the last months.

It says 'Last updated: 30/04/2012 16:09 CET', but it isn't (probably 25/04 would be true). Chelsea got it's points of that weeks matches, Germany and Spain are still missing it. Probably won't be corrected before the finals.

@Ricardo:

Found the old topic, it was in december 2011:
See here

Re: Turkey : 4 or 5 teams?
Author: mansiz Date: 15-07-2012, 10:43	why turkey counted like 5 team but in real its was only 4 teams. why you guys changed its back. calcuteted like 5 teams. now last year 5100 points???

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 15-07-2012, 14:34

It has been changed back here, since from the coefficients UEFA published it was clear they divided by 5.
And in fact that is according to their rules, since they say that if a team refuses to take part (or is excluded) and no other team will replace them, that the total number of teams that the country was entitled to will be used as the number to divide the points by.

You can of course discuss if this is fair, but it are the UEFA rules, so that is why on this site we also (have to) use these coefficients.

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 15-07-2012, 19:42

Hmm Forza, I don't fully agree with you on "(or is excluded) and not replaced". The regulations don't say anything on that. For me this decision falls under the unforeseen circumstances where UEFA takes a decision if no rule exists. And Fenerbahce was not excluded by UEFA, but withdrawn by the Turkish FA (under high pressure from UEFA). That's a rare circumstance. In other cases the club would have been refused a license, and replaced by another club.

The regualtions say:

Article 2.07: If a club refuses to enter the competition, having qualified for it on sporting merit and obtained a licence from the competent national body, no other club from the same association may be entered in its place and the access list for the UEFA club competitions (Annex Ia) is rebalanced accordingly; furthermore, in such a case, the coefficient of the association concerned is calculated in accordance with the specific rule laid down in Annex II, point 6.

Article 2.11: A club which is not admitted to the competition is replaced by the next bestplaced club in the top domestic league championship of the same association, provided it fulfils the admission criteria. In this case, the access list for the UEFA club competitions (Annex Ia) is adjusted accordingly.

Aneex II, point 6: To calculate the coefficient of the association concerned, the points obtained in a given season by its clubs are added, then divided by the total number of clubs from the association that took part in the two UEFA club competitions in question. However, if a club refuses to enter either of these two UEFA club competitions and is therefore not replaced by another club from the same association, the coefficient of the association concerned is calculated as follows: the points obtained in the season in question by its clubs are added, then divided by the total number of clubs from the association that could have entered the two UEFA club competitions in accordance with the access list as set out in Annex Ia.