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Sixth place in EPL
Author: Yamor2 Date: 21-04-2012, 19:59	Can anyone explain to me why sixth place is guaranteed Europe? http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17730352 If Chelsea win the FA Cup, but finish seventh, how would sixth place get into Europe?

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: flob Date: 21-04-2012, 20:47 Edited by: flob at: 21-04-2012, 20:49	It isn't guranteed so far, as Bert already stated in another thread, BBC and the FA are wrong.

Author: Yamor2
Date: 22-04-2012, 23:24

Well, Newcastle are now guaranteed European football, since the only way they can finish sixth is by Chelsea overtaking them, in which case, sixth place would get a European place.

By the way, can anyone explain to me why Bert, on the page with next years qualifications, has written that the cup winners from the top 6 nations go directly to the GS's? I was under the impression that only the title-holder ever does.

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: nemesys Date: 22-04-2012, 23:32	^^____ AFAIK from 2012-13 season Uefa changed the access list, allowing the CW of countries ranked 1st to 6th to automatically qualify to the GS.

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 23-04-2012, 11:14	That's correct. UEFA has made a change to the access list from this season onwards. CW's of 1-6 have direct access to the group stage now. To compensate this CW's of the lower ranked countries (19 and below) now have to play 1 extra QR.

Author: duncshine
Date: 23-04-2012, 14:09

And of course if Chelsea win the Champions League but finish seventh in the Premier League...

Then you'd have four English teams in the CL - Chelsea + the top 3

The Europa league places would then go to 4th and 5th plus Liverpool either as FA Cup winners or Carling Cup Winners.

In this scenario too, 6th in the Premiership would not guarantee European football.

Had Everton won their FA Cup semi-final, there would have been the possibility that even 5th place wouldn't have been enough!

Chelsea as CL TH, plus Prem top 3 into CL
Liverpool (Lge Cup), Everton (FA Cup) plus 4th place in Europa League

That would have been a pretty unique scenario!

Author: executor
Date: 23-04-2012, 14:18
Edited by: executor
at: 23-04-2012, 14:19

duncshine: Had Everton won their FA Cup semi-final, there would have been the possibility that even 5th place wouldn't have been enough!

Chelsea as CL TH, plus Prem top 3 into CL
Liverpool (Lge Cup), Everton (FA Cup) plus 4th place in Europa League

Everton would've had to win the FA Cup for that scenarion to happen. Otherwise, if they would've lost to Chelsea, and if the latter would've won CL and finish 7th, then the 5th placed team would've gone to EL. See THIS thread, my discussion with Forza-AZ from yesterday.

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: duncshine Date: 23-04-2012, 14:32	Hi Executor, Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

Author: Yamor2
Date: 23-04-2012, 16:09
Edited by: Yamor2
at: 23-04-2012, 16:20

Duncshine, I don't think that is actually true. As far as I know, the UEFA rules state that if the CL winner finishes out of the Europa League spots, then the country receives an extra European spot.

Edit to explain:
Basically, when 4th spot goes to the EL, it's not instead of anyone, it's a new spot, and they get placed in the best available spot (regarding qualification requirements), not a spot vacated by someone from their country.

Author: flob
Date: 23-04-2012, 19:10
Edited by: flob
at: 23-04-2012, 19:11

Yamor2, you're right.
CL-Regulations, 2.03b:

b) If the titleholder comes from an association entitled to four places in the
UEFA Champions League and does not qualify for the UEFA Champions
League or UEFA Europa League through its domestic competitions, the
lowest-ranked club of the association’s UEFA Champions League
representatives is automatically transferred to the UEFA Europa League
(into the latest possible round where there is a vacancy). In this case, the
association of the titleholder is entitled to one additional place in the
UEFA Europa League.

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: duncshine Date: 24-04-2012, 07:37	Ha! I didn't know that! Gotta love this forum, thanks guys!

Author: THEPOSH
Date: 25-04-2012, 07:35

What you guys forget to address is what happens to the other countries. Yes PL 4th goes to EL, but that leaves an open spot in the NCQ3. The regulations doesnt say what happens here.
I suspect that this spot will be filled by 6th ranked Portugal N3 moves from NCQ4 to NCQ3. That in turn leaves a vacancy in NCQ4 which would then be filled by 16th ranked Suiss N2 moves from EL to NCQ4. That leaves a vacancy in the EL which is filled by England who gets an extra team in EL.

Author: executor
Date: 25-04-2012, 07:45

@THEPOSH

No country will get an extra CL spot, unless they have a CLTH that didn't qualify for CL and max 3 CL spots. So, you're plan with N2 of the 16th placed going from EL to CL will never happen.

In fact, I'm a bit surprised. Just a few moments ago, you replied to ferdi HERE. He pointed out correctly that, if England's 4th would be transfered to EL, that would create an open spot in NCQR4. But, by moving Italy's 3rd to CLGS, problem is solved. Why? England's 4th would go to ELGS. No need to shift any other teams.

If England's 4th would've lost NCQR4, they would've been transfered to ELGS. So, it should be fair to proceed this way. By moving 2 teams from NCQR3 to NCQR4, England's 4th would have to be placed in ELQR4, which would be a step back, thus even more unfair to them.

Author: Lusankya
Date: 25-04-2012, 08:32
Edited by: Lusankya
at: 25-04-2012, 08:34

Executor wrote: "In fact, I'm a bit surprised. Just a few moments ago, you replied to ferdi HERE. He pointed out correctly that, if England's 4th would be transfered to EL, that would create an open spot in NCQR4. But, by moving Italy's 3rd to CLGS, problem is solved. Why? England's 4th would go to ELGS. No need to shift any other teams.

If England's 4th would've lost NCQR4, they would've been transfered to ELGS. So, it should be fair to proceed this way. By moving 2 teams from NCQR3 to NCQR4, England's 4th would have to be placed in ELQR4, which would be a step back, thus even more unfair to them."

Excutor, there is no free spot in the CLGS, so the Italian 3rd won't be transfered to CLGS. When there is a vacancy in any round, UEFA always solved the problem by moving teams from earlier QRs to the round with the free spot. They never never solved it by moving a team from the QR in question to a later round.

England's 4th have no guarantee that they get placed in ELGS. As Theposh already pointed out in Forum 2 (it was also said many, many times in forum 1):
"[The rules say> that the lowest-ranked club of the association’s UEFA Champions League representatives is automatically transferred to the UEFA Europa League (into the latest possible round where there is a vacancy)."

Author: executor
Date: 25-04-2012, 09:00

@Lusankya

there is no free spot in the CLGS

Yes, there is. Chelsea would use the TH spot. There are 5 spots for the teams from NCQR4. Italy's 3rd would take one of them. The other 4 would be contested by the remaining 8 teams in NCQR4.

When there is a vacancy in any round, UEFA always solved the problem by moving teams from earlier QRs to the round with the free spot. They never never solved it by moving a team from the QR in question to a later round.

Well, this would be a special case. IMO, things would be solved much easier this way. I also didn't believe at first that, when CLTH is qualified for CLGS, the champion of 13th ranked country would skip 2 QRs and be sent to GS. That never happened before, but UEFA did it.

England's 4th have no guarantee that they get placed in ELGS.

They would've had, if they would've have started in CLQR4. Since they would be knocked-out of CL for reasons not imputable to them, I find it unfair if they would have to start earlier than ELGS.

As Theposh already pointed out in Forum 2 (it was also said many, many times in forum 1):
"[The rules say> that the lowest-ranked club of the association’s UEFA Champions League representatives is automatically transferred to the UEFA Europa League (into the latest possible round where there is a vacancy)."

And, lo and behold, there's a vacancy in ELGS

Author: Lusankya
Date: 25-04-2012, 09:48
Edited by: Lusankya
at: 25-04-2012, 09:50

Yes, there is. Chelsea would use the TH spot. There are 5 spots for the teams from NCQR4. Italy's 3rd would take one of them. The other 4 would be contested by the remaining 8 teams in NCQR4.

That is not what you call a free spot or vacancy. Otherwise I could just transfer 5 teams from CLPO to CLGS every season and abolish the whole CL qualification...

Well, this would be a special case. IMO, things would be solved much easier this way. I also didn't believe at first that, when CLTH is qualified for CLGS, the champion of 13th ranked country would skip 2 QRs and be sent to GS. That never happened before, but UEFA did it.

???
That basically happens every season. We're so used to it, that we sometimes say that the Champions of the 13th placed country have a fixed spot in CLGS.

They would've had, if they would've have started in CLQR4. Since they would be knocked-out of CL for reasons not imputable to them, I find it unfair if they would have to start earlier than ELGS.

Well, it's already unfair that they can't play in the CL at all, isn't it?
It's not about fair or unfair, it's about what is written in the rules.
But I admit I can imagine UEFA doing something to ensure the English 4th would always start in the ELGS in such a case. But the rules don't say that.

And, lo and behold, there's a vacancy in ELGS
As I stated earlier, you can't call these spots vacancies, because otherwise we could just start with 48 teams in ELGS without playing any qualifying rounds.

Let's wait and see what UEFA does, but keep in mind that the rules don't guarantee an ELGS entry for the English 4th. However the rules are kind of vague in this point.

Author: executor
Date: 25-04-2012, 10:08

???
That basically happens every season. We're so used to it, that we sometimes say that the Champions of the 13th placed country have a fixed spot in CLGS.

You're used to it NOW. But when the current format was introduced, me, and I suspect a lot more, were a bit skeptical that a team could leap over 2 QRs to get to CLGS. That apperead to be way too generous on UEFA's part.

Well, it's already unfair that they can't play in the CL at all, isn't it?
It's not about fair or unfair, it's about what is written in the rules.
But I admit I can imagine UEFA doing something to ensure the English 4th would always start in the ELGS in such a case. But the rules don't say that.

This has nothing to do with England. Imagine you're the manager of a team. You know at the start of the championship that, if you finish 4th, you'll be sent in CL NCQR4. And even if you lose there, you're guaranteed 6 games in ELGS. So you make a plan accordingly. You secure 4th spot with a few days before CL final, so you know you have 8 games to play in Europe. But then you find out a team that finished behind you wins the CL and UEFA tells you you cannot play CL. Well, at least I have 6 games in EL, right? Wrong, you must play ELQR4, you're unseeded and you meet a Spanish team. Good luck with that!

No, this is just common sense. You cannot punish a team twice if they commited no crime.

And about vacancies: as I said, this would be a special case. I do not advocate for eliminating QRs, but by applying this method, you only need to move ONE team, Italy's 3rd. No other shifting, which keeps the competition more stable.

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: Witkop1983 Date: 25-04-2012, 10:44	at Anderlecht (and Club Brugge) they are surely hoping Chelsea will not win the CL

Author: Witkop1983
Date: 25-04-2012, 10:55

If the EL winner qualifies for the group stage of the EL or for any phase of the CL the EL cup winner spot is vacated (and thus an option to put the 4th English team in if Chelsea wins the CL in my opinion)

Is this possible: Lets look at the teams still involved:

Athletic Bilbao: Is in the Spanish cup final. If they win it they are in ELGS
Athletico Madrid and Athletic Bilbao are still in the fight for 4th place (allthough chanches are slim)
Valencia is allmost secured of at least 4th place
Sporting is in the cup final and still have a slim chanche of qualifying for the CL.

Author: ferdi
Date: 25-04-2012, 11:12

Witkop1983,

"If the EL winner qualifies for the group stage of the EL or for any phase of the CL the EL cup winner spot is vacated (and thus an option to put the 4th English team in if Chelsea wins the CL in my opinion)."

Yes, this would be possible. But that would mean that instead of adjusting in EL access list, as it was done this year for example, you would instead manipulate the CL access list (by promoting some CLQ3 teams to CLQ4). But then, you would still have to adjust the EL access list, since now you have a vacant spot in ELQ4, originally reserved for a loser from CLQ3.

It's possible, but it looks a bit arbitrary to me.

Author: Witkop1983
Date: 25-04-2012, 11:32

It is the best EL spot vacated (if it happens), and yes it will leave a vacated spot in ELQ4, but my guess is that will be solved by promoting teams from lower qualifying rounds.

If the TH spot is used by a team that qualified for Europe in a lower EL round then a spot in ELQ4 is vacated (loser of CLQ3, since there would be only 8 teams in the NCQ3). In this case also another spot in ELQ4 or ELQ3 is vacated and teams from lower leagues will be promoted.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 25-04-2012, 11:49
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 25-04-2012, 11:53

@executor

You're used to it NOW. But when the current format was introduced, me, and I suspect a lot more, were a bit skeptical that a team could leap over 2 QRs to get to CLGS. That apperead to be way too generous on UEFA's part.

This is because before the current format there were teams starting in the final QR, so UEFA could move up 1 team from there. In the current format no team starts in CL-Q4, so it is logical that if there is a vacancy in CL-GS UEFA moves up 1 team from CL-Q3 (since there is no team in CL-Q4 to be moved).

This has nothing to do with England. Imagine you're the manager of a team. You know at the start of the championship that, if you finish 4th, you'll be sent in CL NCQR4. And even if you lose there, you're guaranteed 6 games in ELGS. So you make a plan accordingly. You secure 4th spot with a few days before CL final, so you know you have 8 games to play in Europe. But then you find out a team that finished behind you wins the CL and UEFA tells you you cannot play CL. Well, at least I have 6 games in EL, right? Wrong, you must play ELQR4, you're unseeded and you meet a Spanish team. Good luck with that

In that case the manager should do his homework better, because in the regulations there isn't any guarantee that 4th of a top-3 country is in EL-GS at least.
It is clearly mentioned that 4th will move back to EL when a lower ranked team wins the CL, and the round they enter in EL isn't mentioned as being the GS, but as the highest with a vacancy, and that can be GS or Q4.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 25-04-2012, 12:01
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 25-04-2012, 12:03

And about vacancies: as I said, this would be a special case. I do not advocate for eliminating QRs, but by applying this method, you only need to move ONE team, Italy's 3rd. No other shifting, which keeps the competition more stable.

This is possible but not likely since UEFA never moves up a team if there is no extra vacancy. So there is no reason to move up a team from NCQ4 here since all 22 direct CLGS-spot are filled (21 regular + TH).

UEFA always fills vacancies by moving up teams from lower QR's, so it is far more likely they move up 2 teams from NCQ3 and adjust the EL-access list accordingly since there would be 1 less loser in CL-NCQ3.

UEFA doesn't make it that they have to move the least number of teams, but move according to a logic system.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 25-04-2012, 12:02

So let's put all option on a row when Chelsea wins the CL and so enter the CL on the TH-spot:

Chelsea qualify for:
1.CL-GS (3rd in PL)
2.CL-NCQ4 (4th in PL)
3.EL-GS (FA-cup winner)
4.EL-Q4 (5th in PL)
5.EL-Q3 (6th in PL)
6.Chelsea doesn't qualify for CL/EL (lose FA-cup final and 7th or lower in PL)

1.spot open in CL-GS (England-3) --> Champions 13:Bel (to GS), 16:Swi (to Q3), 48:Mal (to Q2) and 49:NIr (to Q2) move up.
2.spot open in CL-NCQ4 (England-4) --> 3rd 6:Por (to NCQ4), 2nd 7:Rus (to NCQ4) move up. That leaves 1 open spot in EL-Q4, so CW 16:Swi (to Q4), 19:Aus (to Q3), 33:Mol (to Q2) and 34:Lit (to Q2) move up.
3.-6.spot open in CL-NCQ4 (England-4) since England-4 is downgraded to EL --> 3rd 6:Por (to NCQ4), 2nd 7:Rus (to NCQ4) move up. That leaves the following spots open in EL:

3.spots open in EL-GS (England-CW) and EL-Q4 (1 less loser CL-NCQ3), so England 4 is entered in GS and CW 16:Swi (to Q4), 19:Aus (to Q3), 33:Mol (to Q2) and 34:Lit (to Q2) move up.
4.spots open in EL-Q4 (England-5) and EL-Q4 (1 less loser CL-NCQ3), so England 4 is entered in Q4 and CW 16:Swi (to Q4), 19:Aus (to Q3), 33:Mol (to Q2) and 34:Lit (to Q2) move up.
5.spots open in EL-Q3 (England-6) and EL-Q4 (1 less loser CL-NCQ3), so England 4 is entered in Q4 and CW 19:Aus (to Q3), 33:Mol (to Q2) and 34:Lit (to Q2) move up.
6.spot open in EL-Q4 (1 less loser CL-NCQ3), so England 4 is entered in Q4.

In cases 4.-6. England-4 might be entered in GS in stead of Q4 if there is another spot open there due to the EL-winner qualifying for CL or EL-GS.

Author: executor
Date: 25-04-2012, 12:34
Edited by: executor
at: 25-04-2012, 12:39

Forza-AZ: This is because before the current format there were teams starting in the final QR, so UEFA could move up 1 team from there. In the current format no team starts in CL-Q4, so it is logical that if there is a vacancy in CL-GS UEFA moves up 1 team from CL-Q3 (since there is no team in CL-Q4 to be moved).

Yes, I know that before there was a team that could've been promoted from the last QR to GS. But explain to me why UEFA did such an extreme gesture (promoting a team over 2 rounds!!! Never happened before), instead of shifting the teams in QRs, so that it wouldn't be the case for that:

QR4: 2 teams promoted from QR3 + 10 winners from QR3
QR3: 1 team that was already there + 3 promoted from QR2 + 16 winners from QR2
QR2: 28 teams that were already there + 2 teams promoted from QR1 + 2 winners from QR1
QR1: 4 teams

In total, that would give 6 places in CLGS. You can double check, but I think I did all the calculations right.

That would've meant that no team would've been given a "special treatment". So, why did they didn't chose this? Because it was too complicated.

In this case it would be like Italy's 3rd would've defeated England's 4th. One goes to CLGS, the other to ELGS.

That, plus the fact that England's 4th isn't guaranteed a ELGS spot makes me think this is the solution. Think about it: no team is EVER downgraded. England's 4th is currently assured of ELGS. In your scenario, there would be cases where it would be DOWNGRADED. And not because it's their fault. See now?

EDIT:
In that case the manager should do his homework better, because in the regulations there isn't any guarantee that 4th of a top-3 country is in EL-GS at least.

Then why do we have the Access List for? I thought it assures a team NEVER to start at an earlier round. The current Access List ensures the 4th of Top 3 countries never to start earlier than GS in EL (in case they lose CLNCQR4). So, the Access List is just for "recommendations"?

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: zender Date: 25-04-2012, 12:41	Off topic, A player may play for how many teams during a single season? Is there a limit set for this? (didn't want to start a new thread for this)

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: amirbachar Date: 25-04-2012, 14:20	I believe executor is wrong, otherwise the regulations will just say that the 4th in the league would go to EL group stage. If the EL Th will qualify to CL or EL GS, that spot will be a vacancy, so it is very likely that they will be moved to EL GS anyway.

Author: cswy1882
Date: 25-04-2012, 14:40

regarding the europa League places... My understanding was that if Chelsea won the CL and came 5th, the 4th, 6th placed and Liverpool (league cup) would qualify.

If Chelsea won the champions league and came 6th... 4th, 5th place and Liverpool (League Cup would qualify)

Given the likelyhood that if Chelsea finish 6th... Newcastle and Tottenham will finish above them to claim either 4th or 5th... on that basis, Newcastle are already qualified... and Tottenham need 2 more points to secure European football or an Everton loss in anyone of their four remaining games (Everton in 7th... 11 points behind Tottenham in 5th)

Is that correct?

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: Lorric Date: 25-04-2012, 14:43	If Chelsea take the FA Cup, it will solve all the problems, opening up 4th to the ELGS.

Author: executor
Date: 25-04-2012, 15:27

amirbachar: I believe executor is wrong, otherwise the regulations will just say that the 4th in the league would go to EL group stage.

I would count too much on that statement. It looks like something they copy/paste every year. Maybe they have plans to modify the Access List (like with CWs from Top 6 next season) and don't want to modify that text everytime there's a change. In fact, that text is very vague, just to cover them in every situation. There's nothing in there, for instance, that deals with the TH already qualified for CLGS, for instance. They could've said that Champion of the 13th ranked country goes to GS. But they want o keep everything "generic".

Maybe in the future they'll move the teams that are currently starting in CL NCQR4 in QR3, so no team in CLQRs would be assured of ELGS. But that text will remain unchanged.

Again, if you think I'm wrong, then you acknowledge the fact that a team can be downgraded in certain circumstances. The only downgrade I've seen till now was with Liverpool in 2005. They should've started in CLGS as TH, but since UEFA wasn't pleased either with seeing 5 English teams in CL, or with the TH missing out, they downgraded Liverpool to QR1 and no country protection. If any of you have any other examples of downgrading, please share them.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 25-04-2012, 16:21

@executor
Yes, I know that before there was a team that could've been promoted from the last QR to GS. But explain to me why UEFA did such an extreme gesture (promoting a team over 2 rounds!!! Never happened before), instead of shifting the teams in QRs, so that it wouldn't be the case for that:

QR4: 2 teams promoted from QR3 + 10 winners from QR3
QR3: 1 team that was already there + 3 promoted from QR2 + 16 winners from QR2
QR2: 28 teams that were already there + 2 teams promoted from QR1 + 2 winners from QR1
QR1: 4 teams

In total, that would give 6 places in CLGS. You can double check, but I think I did all the calculations right.

That would've meant that no team would've been given a "special treatment". So, why did they didn't chose this? Because it was too complicated.
This option would give 1 extra match in CL-Q4, so also 1 extra loser that would qualify for EL-GS, ending up with 49 teams there.
Just moving 1 team is logically according to what UEFA always did, only difference is that no teams start in Q4, so since it is not possible to move a team from there to the GS, then it is logically that they move a team from the round before to the GS.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 25-04-2012, 16:31

Teams can't be downgraded within a tournament.

There however is the exception that a team can be downgraded from CL to EL if they end up 4th and the CL-winner is ranked lower.
In the accesslist they were in CL-Q4 (not in EL!!!), so putting them in EL-Q4 is no downgrading within a tournament, even though they would be assured of EL-GS when losing CL-Q4.

You can compare this with Shakhtar Donetsk when they won the EL. As EL-winner they would be assured of EL-GS, but since they qualified for CL-Q3 they were transferred to another tournament and thus forfeiting their assurance of EL-GS, and after losing in CL-Q3 ended up having to play in EL-Q4.
This is the same with Englands 4th if Chelsea wins CL. They will be transferred to another tournament by regulations, and thus forfeit there assurance of EL-GS. And can be put either in EL-Q4 or EL-GS depending where the highest vacancy is.

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: Yamor2 Date: 25-04-2012, 17:29	I also think Executor is wrong. The team finishing 4th is being downgraded from CL. The rules say that they are downgraded to the highest available EL place. No reason that has to be ELGS. How can you say that there is no such thing as a downgrade - there's no downgrade bigger then going from CL to EL! And you're complaining about going to ELQ4 instead of ELGS...

Author: executor
Date: 25-04-2012, 19:19

@Forza-AZ

Your example isn't quite fitting. Shakhtar Donetsk gave up the ELTH spot. Nobody forced them. It was a "self-accountability" decision. In this case, England's 4th will be forced to give up their CL spot. I feel they should be offered a small compensation for this, wouldn't you agree? Like being treated AS IF they came from CL. Otherwise, they will have every right to be pissed at UEFA...

@Yamor2

I didn't express myself correctly. That case is written in the regulations. I was wondering if there are other downgrades that happened in the past that aren't covered by the rules (Liverpool case excepted).

Too bad there's a great possibility we won't found out the solution in the near future. I doubt Chelsea can win the CL. And such cases seem to happen once every 6 years or so... therefor we will continue to debate...

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 25-04-2012, 19:28
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 25-04-2012, 19:30

@executor

Your example isn't quite fitting. Shakhtar Donetsk gave up the ELTH spot. Nobody forced them. It was a "self-accountability" decision. In this case, England's 4th will be forced to give up their CL spot. I feel they should be offered a small compensation for this, wouldn't you agree? Like being treated AS IF they came from CL. Otherwise, they will have every right to be pissed at UEFA...

Of course these cases differ and Shakhtar was happy they could play in CL (allthough I doubt they had the choise of playing in EL-GS and forfeiting CL. I don't think you can forfeit CL and still play EL).

Englands 4th won't have a CL spot according to regulations when Chelsea wins the CL. So they cannot be pissed at UEFA and can't demand a compensation, since there is nothing to compensate them for.
Everybody knows the rules, so you can't start complaining afterwards.

You can argue if it is fair they might have to start in EL-Q4, but that is not what we are discussing here. This is about what regulations say and what will happen when Englands 4th starts in EL. Regulations clearly say that they get a spot in the highest possible EL round where there is a vacancy. And that can be either Q4 or GS.

For the sake of this argument let's hope that Chelsea wins the CL, loses the FA-cup final and that the EL-winner doesn't qualify for CL or EL-GS. Chances that all of this happens are slim however.

Author: Yamor2
Date: 25-04-2012, 19:58

@executor,

as much as the downgrade from CL to EL is in the rules, the downgrade to "the most advanced round in EL available" is also in the rules.

Anyway, if executor is wrong, I have an interesting case:
what would be if 4th spot in PL also wins the FA Cup.
As has been mentioned, the league's European spots are distributed before considering the TH spot. So 4th spot provisionally gets a CL place, and doesn't use the FA Cup spot which gets ELGS. That goes to 5th in the league.
If the 4th placed team then get downgraded because a team outside the top 4 wins the CL, and they get downgraded to the highest available position, which, say, is ELQ4, could they ask to use their FA Cup spot instead?

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 26-04-2012, 10:14

@Yamor2

This is an interesting case indeed. It would be unfair to have the 4th start earlier then the 5th.
But also the question will then be: Will the losing Cup finalist qualify for EL?
I think not. Normally the Domestic CL/EL spots are divided before the TH's are upgraded. This should be an exception I think. 4th will not be considered a CL team, so they just take the Cup-spot and the losing finalist won't be qualified.

Another interesting scenario:
1st, 2nd or 3rd wins the national cup, so the EL-GS-spot will go to 5th normally (Q3 to losing finalist). What will happen when the 4th has to be downgraded to EL and only a spot in Q4 is vacant?
I would be strange if 4th has to start in Q4 and 5th in GS, so I guess these spots should be reversed then.

Author: ferdi
Date: 26-04-2012, 10:52
Edited by: ferdi
at: 26-04-2012, 11:06

I don't see the problem.

There are 10 teams in CLQ4 non champions path, and there are 5 spots reserved for them in CLGS and 5 spots in ELGS.

Now remove Newcastle for a moment, and you get 9 teams and still 10 spots.

So you give one team a bye to CLGS, plus 4 winners to CLGS, plus 4 losers to ELGS.

That leaves you with a vacant spot in ELGS, and this spot is taken by Newcastle.

Of course IF you let an additional team from CLQ3 to CLQ4, then you effectively remove the free spot in ELGS, and create a new vacant spot in ELQ4 instead.

But why on earth should you do that? The regulations don't say that. Or have I missed something?

executor said: i would count too much on that statement. It looks like something they copy/paste every year.

I agree. The access list can be changed (it has just been changed), but the paragraph in question is put in more general terms, so that they don't have to adapt the regulations every time they change the access list.

executor said: Too bad there's a great possibility we won't found out the solution in the near future. I doubt Chelsea can win the CL.

I think this will be discussed in the media before the final, and UEFA will publish the solution, just for clarity.

Author: executor
Date: 26-04-2012, 11:03
Edited by: executor
at: 26-04-2012, 11:05

@ferdi

Yes, this solution is elegant and fair, that's why I like it.

The argument of Forza-AZ and the others is that, until now, UEFA didn't upgrade a team if there was no vacancy in the upper round. Technically, they would be correct (there would be no vacancy in CLGS to upgrade Italy's 3rd). However, this case would be special and UEFA showed that in such special cases they take special measures.

I understand their point, but they also must understand that, if UEFA would blindly follow that rule, they would inflict unnecessary harm to England's 4th. Consider it to be a curtoisy act: since UEFA are depriving that team of a prize obtained through hard work, would it be such a tragedy if they upgrade a team in spite of a lack of vacancy, in order to reduce the sorrow bestowed upon the unlucky? I feel it shouldn't be.

And since I doubt Chelsea can win the CL, we might have to wait many years to find out...

EDIT:

ferdi: I think this will be discussed in the media before the final, and UEFA will publish the solution, just for clarity

Perfect then

Author: ferdi
Date: 26-04-2012, 11:13
Edited by: ferdi
at: 26-04-2012, 17:35

executor said: The argument of Forza-AZ and the others is that, until now, UEFA didn't upgrade a team if there was no vacancy in the upper round. Technically, they would be correct (there would be no vacancy in CLGS to upgrade Italy's 3rd).

I don't understand this argument. If you give Italy a bye for their 3rd team, it would just as good be a change of the access list as any other change. The third teams from England, German and Spain have already a bye to CLGS, and now Italy's 3rd will also get a bye.

This is a perfect normal change of the access list. Just as the champions from the first twelve countries have already a bye to CLGS, and if the title holder spot is not used, the champion from the 13th country will also get a bye.

executor wrote: (there would be no vacancy in CLGS to upgrade Italy's 3rd)

Yes there is. If you upgrade Italy, and remove Newcastle, then you only need four spots for the CLQ4 non champions. The fifth spot is taken by Italy. It becomes available in the moment you give Italy a bye.

What makes the difference in this case is that BOTH EL AND CL are affected by the matter, since all non champions that take part in the CL qualification path have a guaranteed spot in either ELGS or ELQ4 if they lose in CL qualification. So you inevitably get a free spot in EL once you remove Newcastle from CL qualification, however you solve the matter.

You have however a choice where the free spot for Newcastle emerges, and I see absolutely no reason why you shouldn't let the free spot emerge in ELGS, since that is what Newcastle would have had anyway for granted.

executor wrote: Your example isn't quite fitting. Shakhtar Donetsk gave up the ELTH spot. Nobody forced them. It was a "self-accountability" decision.

The main problem (and difference) in this case was that it wasn't possible to keep the EL title holder spot free for Shakhtar, because it was only decided whether they would need it in the 3rd qualification round. You cannot change the access list any more when the competition is already in playoff round. Which of the other 75 teams that were alredy qualified for ELQ4 would you have kicked out of the competition once it was clear that Shakhtar lost their CLQ3 qualification match and would reclaim their title holder spot?

The Chelsea/Newcastle case is different because it is clear from the beginning that Newcastle will take their guaranteed spot in ELGS. So you change the access list accordingly before the competition starts.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 26-04-2012, 19:15

@ForzaAZ & @Yamor

Along similar lines to your posts: it would have been rather interesting if this year's FA Cup Final had been Chelsea v Everton rather than Chelsea v Liverpool.

Lets say Chelsea had won the Final & only finished 5th in the Premier League & Newcastle (or Spurs) were 6th.

Would the result of the Champions League Final actually have affected the final European place? If Chelsea won they would go to the CL - not using their EL spot - which would then go to Everton as losing finalists. But if they lost the final then the European spot would have gone to the 6th in the league.

That seems like a strange anomaly to me. A team potentially losing a European place because a different team from their country wins a European trophy.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 26-04-2012, 19:25

I do post one possible solution to the "English 4th having to play ELQ4" problem somewhere a few weeks ago.

If you simply give the TH spot to Chelsea & reduce the number of teams in NCQ in the CL from 15 to 14 you have one less match in CLQ3. You therefore also have one less team transferring from CLQ3 to ELQ4.

If they wanted to UEFA could therefore just reduce the number of ties in ELQ4 by one - the English 4th getting a notional bye vs the spot vacated by the team not transferring in from the CL.

Not saying it's what they will do but it seems more likely to me than promoting an extra team directly to the CL groups just to tidy things up.

By the way - Executor: before the semi-finals I'd also have said it was very unlikely/damn nigh impossible for Chelsea to win the Champions League. But now...

Author: executor
Date: 27-04-2012, 07:22
Edited by: executor
at: 27-04-2012, 07:24

@badgerboy

Along similar lines to your posts: it would have been rather interesting if this year's FA Cup Final had been Chelsea v Everton rather than Chelsea v Liverpool.

Lets say Chelsea had won the Final & only finished 5th in the Premier League & Newcastle (or Spurs) were 6th.

Would the result of the Champions League Final actually have affected the final European place? If Chelsea won they would go to the CL - not using their EL spot - which would then go to Everton as losing finalists.

That is not correct (I had a similar discussion with Forza-AZ on another thread). Winning the CL does not mean "qualifying for CL". The Eurospots are distributed first and only then the TH right would apply. So Everton would never be in EL just because they lose the final to the CLTH.

If you simply give the TH spot to Chelsea & reduce the number of teams in NCQ in the CL from 15 to 14 you have one less match in CLQ3. You therefore also have one less team transferring from CLQ3 to ELQ4.

If they wanted to UEFA could therefore just reduce the number of ties in ELQ4 by one - the English 4th getting a notional bye vs the spot vacated by the team not transferring in from the CL.

From where did you get that? There wouldn't be one less game in CLQR3, unless you transfer 2 teams to CLQR4. That would indeed create a vacant spot in ELQR4, but not in the ELGS (unless Chelsea wins the Cup and/or the ELTH isn't used).

Author: executor
Date: 27-04-2012, 07:41
Edited by: executor
at: 27-04-2012, 07:43

Analysis of the possibility of having a vacancy in ELGS:

1. Chelsea winning the CL and the FA Cup.

(2. Chealsea winning the CL, losing the FA Cup, but finishing 5th and Liverpool qualifying for CL. Since Liverpool are 16 pts behind 4th with 4 rounds to go, this scenario is now impossible).

3. Atletico Madrid or Athletic Bilbao winning the EL and qualifying for CL (both teams are 4 pts behind 4th with 4 rounds to go).

4. Atheltic Bilbao winning the EL and the Spanish Cup.

5. Athletic Bilbao winning the EL, losing the Cup final, but finishing 5th.

6. Atletico Madrid winning the EL, finishing 5th and Bilbao losing the Cup final.

7. Atletico Madrid winning the EL, finishing 5th and Bilbao winning the Cup, but finishing in Top 4.

I think that would be all the cases in which we will have a vacancy in ELGS...

Author: ferdi
Date: 27-04-2012, 08:01
Edited by: ferdi
at: 27-04-2012, 08:02

badgerboy wrote: "If you simply give the TH spot to Chelsea & reduce the number of teams in NCQ in the CL from 15 to 14 you have one less match in CLQ3. You therefore also have one less team transferring from CLQ3 to ELQ4.

If they wanted to UEFA could therefore just reduce the number of ties in ELQ4 by one - the English 4th getting a notional bye vs the spot vacated by the team not transferring in from the CL."

I didn't understand this. You have one team less transfering to ELQ4, but you also have the previously removed Newcaste. So you could give Newcaste the open spot in ELQ4 - but not a spot in ELGS.

Author: Tim
Date: 27-04-2012, 12:58
Edited by: Tim
at: 27-04-2012, 13:00

I think I understand badgerboys proposition:

Chelsea gets the TH-spot in CLGS. England's N4 (let's assume Newcastle) gets pulled out of CLQ4, and 2 teams from CLQ3 (N2's of Russia and Ukraine?) gets moved up to CLQ4. That way, you still have 5 ties in CLQ4 (and 5 teams go to either CLGS or ELGS), but you'll have 4 ties in CLQ3, which would result in a guaranteed vacancy in ELQ4.

Does this mean Newcastle has to start in ELQ4? Only if the TH-spot in ELGS isn't used. And that will happen if Athletic Bibao wins EL and Spanish cup, or if Bilbao loses the cup and either Bilbao or Madrid end up 5th in the Spanish league. The 'guaranteed vacancy' in ELQ4 can be filled by pulling up CW's from lower rounds.

EDIT:

@executor: If Chelsea would win the English cup, wouldn't the CW's place in ELGS normally go to 5th?

So in conclusion:

Chelsea plays CLGS
2 teams from CLQ3 move up to CLQ4
Newcastle starts in ELQ4, unless TH-spot in EL isn't used, then Newcastle starts in ELGS

Author: executor
Date: 27-04-2012, 13:15

@Tim
If Chelsea would win the English cup, wouldn't the CW's place in ELGS normally go to 5th?

No, it would be vacant.

So in conclusion:

Chelsea plays CLGS
2 teams from CLQ3 move up to CLQ4
Newcastle starts in ELQ4, unless TH-spot in EL isn't used, then Newcastle starts in ELGS

If there's a vacancy in ELGS, I think UEFA will probably move 2 teams from CLNCQR3 to QR4. But if there is no vacancy, I want to see UEFA put England's 4th in ELQR4 before I declare myself conviced.

I think UEFA made another blunder, just like with Liverpool in 2005. I do not find it normal for the 4th placed team to start earlier than scheduled. If there's a vacancy in ELGS, UEFA's ass will be covered. If not, I believe the team in question will protest quite violently (and with good reason IMO) so UEFA will try to move one team up from QR4 to CLGS in order to clear this mess.

That's what I think.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 27-04-2012, 14:22
Edited by: badgerboy
at: 27-04-2012, 14:23

Let's try my point again. Let's say that the ELTH spot is used (by Athletic Bilbao) & Liverpool win the FA Cup & hence take the direct group stage spot. So the access list looks just as it currently does on Bert's 2012-13 page.

According to the access list for ELQ4 there should be 62 teams playing for the 31 vacant spots in the group stage.

But one of those teams is ENG N5 and another is one of the 5xNCQ3. In my view there would only be 4xNCQ3 matches. So UEFA could simply reduce the number of matches in ELQ4 by 1 to 30 declaring the English 4th (ENG N5) the winner of a notional game vs the missing team from CLNCQ3. No need to make any other adjustments to the access list at all.

Of course this only works if Chelsea finish 5th in the Premier League. If they finish 6th and the English N5 spot belongs to someone else it wouldn't.

Again - I'm not saying this will definitely happen. But it would make more sense to me than promoting Ita3 or some other to the Champions League Group Stage.

Author: executor
Date: 27-04-2012, 14:53

badgerboy: But one of those teams is ENG N5 and another is one of the 5xNCQ3. In my view there would only be 4xNCQ3 matches. So UEFA could simply reduce the number of matches in ELQ4 by 1 to 30 declaring the English 4th (ENG N5) the winner of a notional game vs the missing team from CLNCQ3. No need to make any other adjustments to the access list at all.

Again, why? Since England's 4th is supposed to start in NCQR4, how can an empty spot be created in NCQR3? The only way would be to shift 2 teams from QR3 to QR4.

That way, indeed, you create an empty spot in ELQR4. But you can't make England's 4th a "notional" winner vs the "missing team" because they ARE the "missing team".

Author: ferdi
Date: 27-04-2012, 15:38
Edited by: ferdi
at: 27-04-2012, 17:25

The half slot in ELQ4 of the missing loser from CLQ3 plus the half slot in ELQ4 of missing English 5th Chelsea (now CL TH) together become a slot for ELGS for Newcastle.

I understand it now, but as you rightly point out, it is not a straightforward solution, since it only works if Chelsea becomes 5th in England.

This way a team from CLQ3 draws effectively the benefit from the fact that Chelsea is removed from EL. There would now be 6 guaranteed slots in EL or CL GS for the 10 non champions that were supposed to start in CLQ3, while only 4 of these 10 non champions would have to play ELQ4.

For the open spot from Chelsea in ELQ4, the normal solution would be instead to promote a team directly from ELQ3 to ELQ4, plus a team from ELQ2 to ELQ3 and so on.

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: Judio1999 Date: 03-05-2012, 09:52	New Question ??? If Chelsea lose BOTH Finals And then they finish sixth in the PL Liverpool will take the Group Stage EL spot Chelsea would have to play ELQ3 on Aug2 and Aug 9 BUT No football is allowed during the Olympics in London !!!! So where will they play ???

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 03-05-2012, 11:10	There are enough stadiums in the rest of England, so that shouldn't be to big a problem. Just move the match to a suitable stadium close to London.

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: Judio1999 Date: 03-05-2012, 11:38	Yes but you lose the home advantage !!!

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 03-05-2012, 12:40	That happens a lot also when clubs have a stadium that isn't suited for CL/EL. And I doubt Chelsea would have a problem beating an unseeded Q3 team even if they have to play their home match outside London.

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: Judio1999 Date: 07-05-2012, 16:53	Problem solved Chelsea won the Cup

Author: duncshine
Date: 14-05-2012, 14:49

I know this is already covered in this topic, but I wonder if you guys would mind checking my understanding re the Chelsea/England situation.

IF Chelsea win the Champions League...

1) Chelsea (as title holders), Manchester City, Manchester United and Arsenal all enter the Champions League at the Group Stage

2) Tottenham, who finished 4th in EPL, slip into Europa league in highest available slot.

3) Tottenham's would be an 'extra' spot in Europa League for the English, so there would be a further three places?

4) These would go to Newcastle (5th in EPL), Everton (7th in EPL), and Liverpool (English League Cup Winners).

Have I understood correctly?

If so, at what stage would Tottenham, Newcastle, Everton and Liverpool enter the Europa League?

Sorry for the dumb questions, but I'm nearly there!

Author: Lorric
Date: 14-05-2012, 15:02
Edited by: Lorric
at: 14-05-2012, 15:06

No place for Everton. That would only have happened if Chelsea had finished outside the European places entirely.

If Chelsea wins the Champions League Chelsea, the two Manchesters and Arsenal all start in the group stage. Tottenham will go to the group stage of the Europa League, Newcastle Q4 and Liverpool Q3.

At least that's how I see it. It's possible they might put Newcastle in the group stages as well, due to the moving around that would occur with Chelsea filling the title holder spot. They could pretend Tottenham lost in Q4 and dropped into the Europa League group stage, which would make Newcastle as England's highest league finisher also play in the group stage. I don't think they'll do that though, I think they'll treat Tottenham as the Europa League group stage qualifier and advance two teams from CLQ3 to CLQ4 to make up for it.

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: executor Date: 14-05-2012, 15:15	Newcastle won't be moved up. any vacancies in ELGS would be filled by moving CWs from countries 7 and below. Russia is first on the list. Newcastle is waaaaaay down Apart from that, all Lorric said is correct.

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: Friesland Date: 14-05-2012, 15:16 Edited by: Friesland at: 14-05-2012, 15:25	...

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: duncshine Date: 14-05-2012, 22:41	Ah, I see, thanks guys! So the extra spot would only apply if Chelsea had failed to qualify AT ALL for Europe (and then won the CL). That's clear - and Tottenham take Chelsea's ELGS place. Newcastle and Liverpool enter in their predicted rounds. Always amazed at how helpful the people on this forum are. Thanks again

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: Lorric Date: 14-05-2012, 23:13	It surprises me too. The helpfulness. If I was to make a prediction on why that is, I would guess this is the only place people interested in this stuff get to talk about it. So they're happy to help.

Author: jaysea67
Date: 17-05-2012, 12:23

If Chelsea win the CL, UEFA's rules concerning the titleholder say "the lowest-ranked club of the association’s UEFA Champions League representatives is automatically transferred to the UEFA Europa League". All the reports I have seen say this would be Tottenham Hotspur - so I presume that is correct.

Why does "the lowest-ranked club" mean the team that finished in the lowest position in the domestic league rather than the team that has the least number of UEFA coefficient points - which in this case would be Manchester City?

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: executor Date: 17-05-2012, 12:44	"Lowest-ranked" means in the domestic league standings, not in the team ranking! If that would've been the case, it would've been quite absurd, don't you think? I mean, England without the champion...?

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: jaysea67 Date: 17-05-2012, 13:46	I just think the regulation is not well written. My first thought in respect of "rank" is the UEFA coefficient points which, when presented as a list of teams, UEFA's website calls "club rankings" (@executor and you called "team ranking"!). It could easily have been that Newcastle finished 3rd in the EPL, then I'd be asking 'why not Newcastle?'.

Author: executor
Date: 17-05-2012, 14:20
Edited by: executor
at: 17-05-2012, 14:22

I've been at this forum for almost 8 years now, but I gotta say this is the first time I hear someone interpreting the rules this way (well, one must discover a new thing everyday, so this is today's new thing

).

I called it "Team ranking" because that's how Bert calls it. It could be called "Club ranking", too. But in the regulations I, for one, understand clearly that it refers to "domestic league ranking".

Coefficients are used ONLY to rank teams before the draws or to separate teams with equal points in CL/EL groups in extreme cases (if no other criteria can be used). They are never used outside of Euro games. They certainly aren't taken into consideration when the list of teams that participate in Eurocups is made.

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: theturk Date: 17-05-2012, 20:01	so, in both cases (chelsea win or not win CL) everton has no chance for european cups. Everyone confirms that?

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 17-05-2012, 20:13	Yes, Everton is not in EL! When a club didn't qualify themselves they can never get in because another club won the CL or EL. England could only have gotten 8 teams if Chelsea wasn't qualified for CL or EL yet, but then the extra 8th team would be Chelsea itself.

Author: jaysea67
Date: 25-05-2012, 13:20

As a follow up to my posts above, I noticed that the 2005/06 CL regulations did explicitly say that it was "the fourth-placed club in the top domestic league championship" which would be transferred to the UEFA Cup. When the regulations were changed to give the winner automatic entry, rather than on the request of their national association, the wording was changed to say "the lowest-ranked club", which is a less precise term.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 25-05-2012, 16:50

Well, it is better formulated when you say lowest-ranked club. Because you can have a situation where 1 of the top 4 teams has no license.

Say for instance the 2nd placed team has no licence, then the 1st, 3rd, 4th and 5th placed teams are qualified for CL. With the 2005/06 regulations you would have to send the 4th placed team into UEFA-cup. With the current regulations it is clear the 5th placed team will have to transfer into EL in this case.

Re: Sixth place in EPL
Author: jaysea67 Date: 27-05-2012, 12:48	I agree, "lowest" is better than "fourth". But the use of "...ranked club" (without identifying the measure by which the rank should be judged) is less precise than "...placed club in the top domestic league championship".

Author: nemesys
Date: 27-05-2012, 13:45

^____

(OT) I noticed that too reading Uefa (or even Fifa and Football in general) regulations. Just for a smile, if you think about, sometimes it is kind of funny to read how book with rules about Fantasy Football are so really specific, extremely severe and detailed (almost maniacal) about how to face each possible specific scenario that might happen, often way more than the "real game" competitions regulations were many things are based on "concepts" that apply rather than specific and detailed rules about each possible case. (/OT)

Cheers!

- nemesys