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Author: erdinc
Date: 15-12-2011, 15:40
| If my memory serves me right, after all UEFA Cup Teams are decided they were assigned to the stages they start, according to their finish in the league rankings. If the losing cup finalist had finished better than all others, they were starting at highest level, if they finish worse that others, they were starting lowest level.
I was checking the Regulations for UEL and noticed that in the Regulations: Paragraph 2.04
"If the winner of the domestic cup qualifies for the UEFA Champions League, the domestic cup runner-up qualifies for the UEFA Europa League at the stage initially reserved for the lowest ranking top domestic league representative (or the winner of another official domestic competition in accordance with paragraph 2.03)"
Then I checked Bert!s page for the same rule. It says:
"However, the losing cup finalist does not get the Europa League cup-winner spot, but gets the last available Europa League spot of that country."
If we give an example from Portugal.
Porto, Benfica, and Sporting qualifies to UCL - one of them beating Braga (4th placed club) in the cup final and winning the cup.
Portugal has two berths from the league and one from the cup. Altogether three entries at UEL.
Cup winner starts at Group stage, N4 team at QR4, and N5 team at QR3.
Where will losing cup finalist Braga start? |
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Author: Lorric
Date: 15-12-2011, 17:20
Edited by: Lorric
at: 15-12-2011, 17:22 | Q4. League position takes precedence over cup runner up. Cup winner > League position > cup runner up. Cup runner up only comes into play if a team doesn't qualify by league position, such as Stoke City this year. If you want proof though, you'll have to do some digging. Check out countries that don't have a cup qualifier and look into their cup final. If a champions league qualifier won, see if a league qualifier was runner up. Maybe someone else will be able to provide an example. |
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Author: caravaj
Date: 15-12-2011, 18:41
| Lorric I don't agree.
As the cup winner is in Champion Leaugue, the 4th, Braga will qualify for the cup winner spot in Europa League : the Group stage. The 5th for the Q4 and the 6th for Q3. |
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Author: flob
Date: 15-12-2011, 18:45
Edited by: flob
at: 15-12-2011, 18:50 | An example would be Portugal this year.
Vitória Guimarães was losing cup finalist, but 5th in the league.
So they started in Q3, the 6th, CD Nacional Funchal had to start in Q2.
And caravaj is probably right, as 4th, Braga would get the GS spot. |
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Author: Lorric
Date: 15-12-2011, 18:49
| @ Caravaj
They'd take that spot, but wouldn't be called cup winner. |
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Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 15-12-2011, 19:13
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 15-12-2011, 19:15 | It's simple. The EL-participants are just ranked by league position with the exception that the Cup-winner is ranked top always.
In England and France there is 1 more exception: If the League Cup winner finishes below the losing Cup finalist, then the League Cup winner will still get a higher spot (like last season in England where Birmingham (League Cup, 18th) started in Q4 and Stoke City (losing Cup finalist, 13th) started in Q3.
So in your example of Portugal you have 4th, 5th and 6th qualifying. Neither is Cup-winner so it is 4th (GS), 5th (Q4) and 6th (Q3).
So you can sum it up this way:
1.Cup winner
2.league position
3.League Cup winner (only England and France)
4.losing Cup finalist |
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Author: Yamor2
Date: 23-02-2012, 15:47
| Hi there, I was wondering if anyone could explain the logic behind the following (applies to countries which send the league cup winner to the Europa League) to me:
If the winner of the FA Cup has already qualified for the Champions League, the runner-up takes their place in the Europa League, taking their league's last available place. That is understandable.
However, if the league cup winner has also qualified for the Champions League, then the next best league finisher qualifies ahead of the FA Cup runner-up - what is the logic in that? Shouldn't the FA Cup runner-up be considered better placed then the next best league finisher, like we see that they qualified when the FA Cup winner is in the Champions League, rather then the next best team in the league. |
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Author: Lorric
Date: 23-02-2012, 17:33
Edited by: Lorric
at: 23-02-2012, 17:43 | It's simple. Same standard as countries without a league cup. National cup winner > League position > National cup runner up.
Also, it's optional whether a country with a league cup allows it's winner to qualify for Europe. Only France and England do. Scotland, Rep Ireland and Finland are examples of countries that don't. |
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Author: Yamor2
Date: 23-02-2012, 20:01
| I understand that, but if, in the case where the league cup winner does use their place, a losing cup finalist comes before the next position in the league, then why does that change with regards to the order when the league cup winner does not use their place?
I don't know if I'm explaining myself very well! |
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Author: Lorric
Date: 23-02-2012, 22:00
| Losing cup finalists are never put before anyone. They always occupy the last spot. |
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Author: bert.kassies
Date: 23-02-2012, 22:03
| Yamor, not sure that I understand you well. But nothing changes: the losing cup finalist is always at the last spot. Whether the league cup spot is used or not. See Forza's list above. |
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Author: Yamor2
Date: 26-02-2012, 11:37
| I understand that they are always last. My problem is that it doesn't seem logical. Let me try and explain what I'm thinking better!
If the LC winner has not qualified for CL, but the FA Cup winner has, what happens? The FA Cup runner-up qualifies, and the next league position does not.
That seems to say that the runner-up is more deserving of qualification then the next league position.
So why, when the next league position qualifies through a different means (namely, when the LC winner has also qualified for CL), do they qualify ahead of the runner-up? |
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Author: adrian
Date: 26-02-2012, 15:57
| Scenario:
Cup final between: Bilbao-Barcelona
Osasuna 7th in spanish league and therefore qualified for EL. (I put my favourite team here =) )
If both cup finalists are in CL, Osasuna goes to GS of EL and 5th and 6th have to qualify.
In this case, teams would prefer a worse position to avoid ELQ 3 or ELQ4 ?
What is the rule here?? Thanks for any answer |
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Author: Lorric
Date: 26-02-2012, 20:40
Edited by: Lorric
at: 26-02-2012, 20:42 | @ Yamor2, I told you, the league cup thing is optional. Most nations don't want the league cup to qualify a team at all.
The runner up thing in national cups is mandated by UEFA. Scotland kicked up a fuss about it a few years back, as they were sending very weak runner ups year after year that were getting dumped at the first hurdle by unseeded sides every time. I think most countries prefer the safety of sending a consistently strong team that proves it via league position into Europe.
@ Adrian, they'll put the highest league finisher into the GS. Same if there's a cup runner up, it will be highest team in the pecking order. |
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Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 27-02-2012, 10:48
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 27-02-2012, 10:49 | @Yamor2
If you win the League-cup then the team is considered as qualified through the League. If that team is already qualified for CL, then the next in the League is qualified.
League-qualifiers always go before losing Cup-finalists, so if doesn't matter at what position they finished, they have qualfied in a better way then the losing Cup-finalist.
To sum it up again for clarity:
1.Cup winner
2.league position
3.League Cup winner (only England and France)
4.losing Cup finalist |
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Author: jaysea67
Date: 27-02-2012, 18:17
| Hi, I'm a new poster but long time browser of the forum and Bert's excellent site.
I think Yamor2 has a good question.
Normal EL qualification in England is:
1. FA Cup winner
2. 5th in Premier League
3. League Cup winner
If the FA Cup winner place is not used qualification will be:
1. 5th in Premier League
2. League Cup winner
3. FA Cup runner-up
So the FA Cup runner-up gets the "spare place" rather than 6th position from the Premier League.
Now go back to the normal rules but, if the League Cup winner place is not used, qualification will be:
1. FA Cup winner
2. 5th in Premier League
3. 6th in Premier League
I believe Yamor2 is asking why doesn't the spare place go to the FA Cup runner-up rather than 6th position (as it does in the previous scenario).
That is a logical question. I guess the answer is that EL allocates one spot to the national cup and the remainder (generally) to the league positions. So it can not be allocated:
1. FA Cup winner
2. 5th in Premier League
3. FA Cup runner-up
because that gives 2 places to the national cup.
Compare it for example to the situation in Spain if the cup winner finished 6th in the league. The final EL place would go to the next team in the league not the cup runner-up. |
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Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 27-02-2012, 19:18
| Rules are clear:
Losing Cup finalist only qualifies for EL when the Cup winner is qualified for CL. |
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Author: Lusankya
Date: 28-02-2012, 10:34
Edited by: Lusankya
at: 28-02-2012, 10:34 | Forza-AZ wrote:
"Rules are clear:
Losing Cup finalist only qualifies for EL when the Cup winner is qualified for CL."
Yes. However, I want to add that this is only true if the Cup Winner is qualified for CL via its league position.
E.g. if the Cup Winner only qualifies for EL (or not at all) via its league position, but qualifies for CL as the title holder, the losing finalist won't get a berth. |
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Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 28-02-2012, 16:40
| Yes, you are right about that.
Such a CL-spot (and also the EL-spot for the winner of EL) is a bonus for winning the competition, and as a result is only awarded after all regular spots are awarded first. |
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