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Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league
Author: vkgz Date: 24-08-2011, 18:02	Last Minute: Turkish federation: Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league

Re: Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league
Author: bert.kassies Date: 24-08-2011, 18:30	Two English reports so far: todayszaman and Yahoo UK.

Re: Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league
Author: bert.kassies Date: 24-08-2011, 21:40	So, it's official now: Fenerbahçe replaced in UEFA Champions League.

Author: vkgz
Date: 24-08-2011, 21:42

http://www.uefa.com/uefa/footballfirst/matchorganisation/disciplinary/news/news
id=1666823.html

The UEFA Emergency Panel has decided to replace Fenerbahçe SK with Trabzonspor AŞ after the Turkish FA withdrew Fenerbahçe from the 2011/12 UEFA Champions League.

The UEFA Emergency Panel decided to replace Fenerbahçe SK with Trabzonspor AŞ, runners-up in the 2010/11 Turkish league, in tomorrow's draw for the UEFA Champions League group stage.

Author: walter-wade
Date: 24-08-2011, 22:02

guys, i have 4 questions to you, if you want the answer, please inform me about them;
1)total turkish teams points of this years will be divided to 4 or 5?if 5, isn't it unjustice? cos fener didn't play a unique match..

2)what will happen to points gained by trabzon during benfica and bilbao matches? will they be conserved or erased?

3)why trabzon won't play against bilbao tomorrow at revenge game?

4)if trabzonspor will replace fener in cl this year, why another turkish team won't replace trabzonspor at uefa europa league? by the way, perhaps trabzon would eliminate bilbao and number of turkish teams that continue to their european challanges this year will be 3 instead of now's 2..

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 24-08-2011, 22:19
Edited by: bert.kassies
at: 24-08-2011, 22:19

walter,

In general, coefficients are calculated over the matches actually played unless ruled otherwise. Formally (be it under great pressure), the Turkish association withdrew Fenerbahçe from the list of participants, which leaves only 4 Turkish teams.

So, in my view the answer your questions is:
1) 4
2) Points will remain
3) Because Trabzonspor is in the CL draw tomorrow
4) Formally, only 4 teams remain on the list of Turkish participants

Author: Cloakmaster
Date: 24-08-2011, 22:33
Edited by: Cloakmaster
at: 24-08-2011, 22:39

Trabzonspor WILL play Bilbao tomorrow, points for the match will be valid for uefa coeffizient. but, no matter who wins the game, Trabzon will play CL-GS. and Bilbao will play EL-GS.

Actually i think it would have been better, if Uefa had waited until the match actually have been played, instad of letting both teams know beforehand, that it will be just a friendly game..

Ps: i don't belive it. uefa changed their message, now saying the match Bilbao-Trabzon is canceld. They really should have made the decision not before thursday night!

Re: Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league
Author: Lorric Date: 24-08-2011, 22:52	Well that sucks if you just flew in as an away fan...

Re: Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league
Author: bert.kassies Date: 24-08-2011, 23:14	Well, my software can't deal with this situation. Trabzonspor got both the Europa League qualifying points as well as the Champions League bonus points. Hmm, my bad, I didn't take into account this scenario Obviously something that needs to be fixed tomorrow.

Re: Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league
Author: Lorric Date: 24-08-2011, 23:25	Yes, I noticed that. I clicked the wrong button, looking to see if Plzen were the no.1 points earner, which they are with 6 wins out of 6. They intrigue me, I hope they get a Russian/Ukranian club, so I can see them play in an early kick off.

Author: walter-wade
Date: 25-08-2011, 00:04

Yeah Bet, i think also you must cancel the points gained by Trabzonspor vs benfica and bilbao (2 draws that make an supplementary 1 country point)

so i will make an analytic and engineering conclusion to this night's decisions. Before tomorrow's matches, turkey was 2/5 or 3/5 situation (trabzon-bilbao chances were almost equal after 0-0 score on the road), after today's developments, turkey's situation in coefficient table is 2/4 (i suggest bursaspor is eliminated) now, the question is that; if you are or you were a turkish fan, would you accept today's scenario or cancel it by waiting tomorrow?s trabzon-bilbao game? 60%is bigger than 50% but 40% is smaller than 50%..was the chance of trabzon vs bilbao was enough in order to increase this 40% to 60 % ?

here is an interesting question to u...

Re: Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league
Author: psychoTurk Date: 25-08-2011, 00:34	in country ranking,it looks like Turkey's coef will be divided by 4.Is it certain?

Re: Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league
Author: amirbachar Date: 25-08-2011, 00:51	Is it confirmed by UEFA that Turkey's points will be divided by 4 and not 5?

Re: Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league
Author: zender Date: 25-08-2011, 01:12	I am not an expert here but Greece's points remain cut by 5 after the Volos incident so why would there be a difference with Turkey?

Re: Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league
Author: psychoTurk Date: 25-08-2011, 01:19	Fenerbahçe didn't play any match

Author: germanyfrance33
Date: 25-08-2011, 01:54

They didn't play any match but it's their fault if they are in this situation and Turkey's football federation fault that didn't take care of the matter in time.
Also,Turkey gets 4 bonus points anyway.
So the points should be divided by 5.
It's like in Greece's case,they could have sent another team instead of Volos.Of course Volos played some games,but they got eliminated on paper and still,Greece divides by 5.

Author: eye
Date: 25-08-2011, 03:21

I dont really understand why UEFA messed that much this summer. 2 presidents of clubs (Fenerbahce - Volos) that were taking part in their competitions in jail and pending trails before their clubs take part in competitions. Why all the decisions that UEFA got were that late? If Twente had qualified yesterday we would have had something crazy. Benfica to take part at group stage of europa league and their opponent at 3rd qualifying that had been eliminated to take part at group stage of champions league !!

Author: germanyfrance33
Date: 25-08-2011, 04:42

eye

These things are bound to happen since UEFA gives autonomy to its members.
That's a good thing in theory,but can work only if we assume that the various national federations are not corrupted.
So UEFA,in order to punish a club,has to wait(even if the case is obvious)for a decision to come from the federation that belongs this club.
All that can take ages and as result we get this mess.
I hope in the future to see UEFA being more flexible and severe,at least as far as concern match fixing.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 25-08-2011, 08:45

I think that Turkish points will be divided by 5 anyway. Turkey withdrew one of their teams, the same as happened in Greece. Turkey had even an advantage: they were allowed to replace the team with another team, one that even already was in competition. Something Greece was not allowed to do. I suppose they could have put another Greek team vs. PSG, but no. But the fact remains that Turkey was allowed to sign up 5 teams, and in the end(yesterday) only 4 names were given to UEFA.

Thanks for the warning, Bert, I will check on counting double qualification points in my sheets too

It's a pretty mess UEFA came in this summer. But what are the alternatives:
a. punishing teams before they are found guilty? Could be done, any miss-doing financial claim should be payed by local FA. This will stop local FA from investigation, as they can't bring up too much money.
b. let a team continue until conviction, finish the sportive year in the CL/EL, but take away all financial gains they get from playing CL/EL since the allegation started.

Re: Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league
Author: scapulaire24 Date: 25-08-2011, 08:48 Edited by: scapulaire24 at: 25-08-2011, 08:51	It seems Uefa divides point by 5 : Uefa ranking But in Team ranking, Fenerbahce still have 4 bonus point ???

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 25-08-2011, 09:40

OK, the problem with Trabzonspor playing in the Champions League after playing in the Europa League qualifying rounds is now fixed in the coefficient tables.

The discussion whether the Turkish points have to be divided by 4 or 5 teams will remain some time, I think. For the time being I use the formal point of view that the country coefficients are calculated by points from matches that are actually played divided by the number of teams that actually took part in the competition.

Author: UCL_Lover
Date: 25-08-2011, 10:50

Regarding UEFA's decision to replace Fener with Tranzon, a question was born about the "correct" divisor for Turkey. 4 or 5?

Well, actually, Fener never played, so it is as if as Turkey participates with only 4 teams.

Supposing that Fener were expelled before even 1st QR, Trabzonspor would took CL1 spot, Bursaspor CL2, Besiktas EL1, Gaziantepspor EL2, while Kayserispor should earn a European ticket for EL3 spot. So, clearly divisor would be 5.

Now, they (Fener) are excluded just before CL draw, having a direct ticket to CL groups. Of course CL groups cannot be formed with just 31 teams.
The point is who would replace them? If they had been replaced by a team from another association, then divisor should have been 4, clearly.

But now they are replaced by Trabzonspor.
So, Trabzonspor is as if as they get direct access to CL-Groups, but also having played 2 games in CL-QR3 (and eliminated from CL! ) and 1 in EL-QR4. If divisor is 4, it seems to me that Turkey gets a nice benefit!

I think that using 5 as divisor is more fair.
My logic is:
- Trabzonspor at the moment were to either qualify for EL or being eliminated by Athletic Bilbao.
- Fenerbahce is excluded from CL groups and Trabzonspor are moved on their place.

Well, it looks a bit like changing positions to Fener and Trabzon, i.e. move Trabzon to CL groups and Fener to EL-Q4 (somewhat like make them ready to face Bilbao :roll: ) and then directly exclude Fener from EL. Fener never played on Europe, because it is as if as Trabzon has played for them. So, divisor shall be 5 and still Trabzon get a little point benefit! 8)

Using 4 as divisor, simply Turkey and Trabzon get a clear point benefit, like I explained (adding also the the 4 bonus points). :?
On uefa.com they still use 5 as divisor, Bert uses 4, I still haven't read the rules to see if they clarify such case. So, I simply don't know what is valid or not.

It was a difficult decision, since the games had been started. The difficulty also had to do with the fact that Fenerbahce never played with an opponent, but they had qualified directly.

Another looking fair solution could be this:

Since Fener were expelled, champions of Belgium (association n.14, since Switzerland, association n.13, had the last association direct access) would get the direct spot. But Genk already have qualified to CL groups, so their opponents, Maccabi Haifa, would get CL group access!
Turkey's divisor would be of course 4 and Trabzon would play Bilbao normally for an EL group ticket. No benefit for Turkey, no benefit for Trabzonspor and just Maccabi Haifa get a bit lucky like Differdange.

Oh, please put me in a UEFA Committee to take the right decisions!!!

Re: Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league
Author: batrogenio Date: 25-08-2011, 11:14	UEFA updated its webpage. It removed Fenerbahce and divides Turkey's points by 4. Also Trabzonspor's points remain. Bert was right.

Author: walter-wade
Date: 25-08-2011, 11:27

i think it happaned what it must happen...because if trabzon would eliminate bilbao today in the revenge match of europa league playoff round, turkey wiould continue with its 3 teams over 5, so the efficiency would be 60 percent..But yesterday, uefa banned fenerbahce and replace trabzonspor which was having already a chance to continue even in uefa cup, so now turkey's situation is 2 teams over 4..so the efficiency even decreases to 50 percent from 60 percent..

Re: Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league
Author: vkgz Date: 25-08-2011, 11:28	yes, uefa updated website. bert was right. http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/index.html

Author: isidromv
Date: 25-08-2011, 16:38

Have you realise that Bert is always able to predict what UEFA will do regarding coefficients? I only see three reasons why it is possible:

- Bert knows the way UEFA thinks after many years managing this site.
- Bert is a member (if not the only one) of the decission body in UEFA about coefficients.
- UEFA monitors this forum waiting for Bert to tell them what they have to do (because they can not figure out themselves).

I'm for the third one, in which case the Bert already deserves the second one (plus a salary from UEFA).

Re: Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league
Author: walter-wade Date: 25-08-2011, 17:21	maybe, platini utilizes 'bert kassies' nickname in this forum..is it possible?

Re: Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league
Author: DIMA1983 Date: 25-08-2011, 17:29	I think UEFA must be played match with Trabzon and Bilbao, and who wins goes to CL GS who is lose go to EL GS. That situasion will be very interesting, and one match and points don't be losing for UEFA coffiesnt. How are you think Bert?

Re: Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league
Author: Witkop1983 Date: 25-08-2011, 17:47	That would have a 50% chanche of having 5 Spanish teams in CL...

Re: Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league
Author: DIMA1983 Date: 25-08-2011, 17:52	I think it will be very interesting match. UEFA rule maybe 5 teams in CL.

Re: Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league
Author: nikola_belgrade Date: 25-08-2011, 17:58	"Bert is a member (if not the only one) of the decission body in UEFA about coefficients". I'm going with this one!

Re: Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league
Author: bert.kassies Date: 25-08-2011, 21:41	Haha isidromv, I wish the salary ... Still I don't think it's all done now. The rankings at the uefa.com site are calculated automaticly, I suppose. Just like the rankings at this site. The 4 teams of Turkey may just be the result of removing Fenerbahce from the list of participants. If UEFA doesn't change it within the next few days, then we can be certain.

Re: Fenerbahçe was banned from the champions league
Author: Ricardo Date: 26-08-2011, 09:16	Well if I look at the teamranking on UEFA.com I see that Trabzonspor has only 4.5 points. That means that their qualification-matches points are removed! They only got the 4 points for acces to the CL-GS!

Author: gogu
Date: 26-08-2011, 13:18

I think Trabzonsport should not get the points of the qualifications in the team ranking. Otherwise it would be an unfair advantage for them.
About the country ranking, I am not that sure. Either the points count and the total is divided by 5 or they do not count and they are divided by 4.

And there is the question: If the points are erased what happened to the points gained by Benfica/Portugal and Bilbao/Spain. I think they keep it anyway.