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National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Bjemmer Date: 10-12-2010, 02:52	Does anybody know a good detailed website for national team rankings? I would like to see how each country gets it points, just like this site does for clubs. While i'm asking for this I also want to say that this website is really great, I learn a lot here. So thanks to Bert grtz

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: bbi Date: 10-12-2010, 08:05 Edited by: bbi at: 10-12-2010, 08:06	here's Edgar's site: www.football-rankings.info/ He is a member of this forum, at least of forum2 because I don't remember to many post of him on this forum.

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Lusankya Date: 10-12-2010, 08:20 Edited by: Lusankya at: 10-12-2010, 08:21	Edit...

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Edgar Date: 10-12-2010, 09:28	He is a member of this forum, at least of forum2 because I don't remember to many post of him on this forum. @bbi That's because you're too young

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: bbi Date: 10-12-2010, 10:09	quite possible Edgar

Author: Bjemmer
Date: 11-12-2010, 15:34

I visited that website but I still don't know where I can find a detailed overview of the points made by a country in the past 5 years, just like this website does for clubs.

For example, If I would like to see about my country how they get their place on the fifa ranking, how they get their points, how many they would need to get in a highter pot for next draw, stuff like that

also, how many points did Belgium earn by winning at Russia with 0-2? (friendly, away game, goals scored.. they all matter in calculation for fifa ranking right?)

so that's what I'm looking for, a site like this one but about national teams, with detailed rankings

thx for your help in advance

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Edgar Date: 13-12-2010, 10:22	I don't know if such a website exists. Home/away, goals scored do not affect the FIFA rankings. Some of the info you're looking for can be found on FIFA's website. See the section "Latest points scored".

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Bjemmer Date: 13-12-2010, 15:32	I didn't really think that the amount of goals for fifa ranking would matter but I was giving an example of what I was looking for. ==> A detailed ranking of national teams just like they do here for clubs.. On the fifa website there is almost no detailed information, I think you are right, that no such website excists, to bad cause it would have been usefull..

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Edgar Date: 13-12-2010, 16:24	There's a detailed totals section on my blog although it's not what you're looking for, since it's not updated. I don't have the time and the hosting space to display this info for all teams month after month.

Author: Bjemmer
Date: 15-12-2010, 18:21

How fifa ranking is made, example and question:

Russia - Belgium (0-2)
----------------------

*Points: Win
= x3

*Match status : friendly
= x1.0

*Oppenent strenght: Russia(13)
= 200 - 13 / 100 = 1,87

*Regional strenght:
= 1+1/2 = 1

*Period: within last 12 months
x1

------
Formula:
ranking points = 100 x (status x opponent x region x period)
ranking points = 100 x (3 x 1 x 1,87 x 1 x 1) = 561

So Belgium gained 561 points by winning against Russia.
This made Belgium rise 5 places in the Fifa Ranking: 62 --> 57
On the Fifa Ranking I can see that Belgium has +32 pts in this latest update.. how are the 561 points that I calculated, transformed into +32 pts???? are these 561 part of a total average? and did that average rise by +32?

I dont understand how that works, I calculated 561 points for that one match, those points are also available on the fifa website:

look at "latest points scored" (561)

http://www.fifa.com/associations/association=bel/ranking/gender=m/index.html

So my calculation, 561 is correct but I dont understand how those points are put into the ranking. does anybody know?

thx in advance!

Author: Edgar
Date: 17-12-2010, 11:38

Bjemmer, as I said in my previous post, see the detailed totals section.

You need to look at all matches in the last 48 months. Divide them in 4 time frames of 12 months each. In each time frame compute the points for each match, add them up and divide the total by the number of matches in that time frame (but no fewer than 5). Multiply the oldest time frame by 0.2, the next one by 0.3, the next one by 0.5 and the most recent by 1.0. Add these values and you'll get the total points Belgium have.

Belgium got 80.14 points from the win against Russia (561 / 7 matches in the last 12 months). However, you lost 47.34 points because:

- results against Qatar (Nov 2009), Azerbaijan (Nov 2008) and Luxembourg (Nov 2008) moved from a more recent time frame to an older one - losing a combined total of 41.09 points
- there are (in the December computation) more matches in the oldest time frame and matches against Serbia (Aug 2007), Armenia, Finland (both in Oct 2007) and Kazakhstan (Sep 2007) lost a combined 6.25 points.

You gained 32.80, but because of rounding you gained only 32.

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Bjemmer Date: 21-12-2010, 18:51 Edited by: Bjemmer at: 21-12-2010, 19:19	thx for your reply! now I understand how it works I Still have a question though :p I can't find the "detailed totals" Blog of Belgium.. I only see a few countries and Belgium is not one of them

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Edgar Date: 22-12-2010, 08:24	Sorry, Bjemmer. You'll have to do it yourself. Use Excel. Get the fixtures in the last 4 years from FIFA.com and the rankings of opponents also from FIFA.com. Let me know how it works out. I no longer post detailed totals because if I re-start posting, many people will ask me for their team detailed totals and I really don't have much time for my blog nowadays.

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Bjemmer Date: 22-12-2010, 13:43	ah ok, I already started doing that I'll let you know how it turns out

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Bjemmer Date: 22-12-2010, 13:59	I still have a question about opponent strenght :p for example: 17/11/2009 Belgium - Qatar (2-0) when I look into the graph on the fifa website, qatar was 94st on the fifa ranking (october 2009). Is this the ranking I have to use in my calculation?

Author: Bjemmer
Date: 23-12-2010, 00:07

I calculated the 526 points that Belgium has on the fifa ranking!

but I had to remove Belgium - Croatia (0-1) loss from my calculations and I dont understand why!!?

you said Belgium played 7 games in the last year, but I count 8 with the home match against croatia, I dont understand why that match does not count?

could you help me with this, it's the only thing that I'm still trying to find out

thx in advance

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Edgar Date: 24-12-2010, 07:19	Congratulations! I guess you already found the answer to the Qatar question. Belgium - Croatia is not considered a FIFA "A" match because at least one of the teams made more than 6 substitutions. See more here.

Author: Bjemmer
Date: 25-12-2010, 16:33

aah ok I knew the match wasn't in the calculation, because it was the only possibility, but I couldn't get a clue why that was :p It's very good for Belgium's ranking that this match didn't count, we would be 66st instead of 57 on the ranking :p

The question about Qatar: I just took the opponents ranking of the month before the match.. even when the match was played for example on the 26th, I still took fifa ranking from the month before, because I didnt know when the exact release DAY was, I only know the months.. Was this the right way to do this, or was I just lucky?

I still have a problem though

I'm wondering how you made that calculation about the points that Belgium lost..

QUOTE:
Belgium got 80.14 points from the win against Russia (561 / 7 matches in the last 12 months). However, you lost 47.34 points

==> I know how you get to 80,14 but I can't find out how to calculate the 47,34

QUOTE:
- results against Qatar (Nov 2009), Azerbaijan (Nov 2008) and Luxembourg (Nov 2008) moved from a more recent time frame to an older one - losing a combined total of 41.09 points

==> When I move these matches to older time frames, this is my calculation:

- Qatar: -27,35
- Luxembourg: -0,21
- Azerbaidjan: -11,03
----------------------
total loss: -38,59 (instead of the 41.09 you calculated)

Could you explain what I'm doing wrong?

QUOTE:
- there are (in the December computation) more matches in the oldest time frame and matches against Serbia (Aug 2007), Armenia, Finland (both in Oct 2007) and Kazakhstan (Sep 2007) lost a combined 6.25 points.

==> I totally don't understand what's happening here

why does Belgium lose these points? and what about Finland, 2x portugal and Czech Republic?? (all in 2007)

I think these are my last questions, when I know the answer to these, I will completely know how it works, thanks to you

Don't you have msn or anything? maybe that would be easier to explain?

thx a lot for your help!

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Bjemmer Date: 28-12-2010, 14:38	Edgar!?? please

Author: flob
Date: 28-12-2010, 15:41

Hi,
I think I can help you at least with the 2nd part of your 'problem'.

QUOTE:
- there are (in the December computation) more matches in the oldest time frame and matches against Serbia (Aug 2007), Armenia, Finland (both in Oct 2007) and Kazakhstan (Sep 2007) lost a combined 6.25 points.

==> I totally don't understand what's happening here why does Belgium lose these points?

What Edgar means here, that in December the points of these matches are divided by 10 (compared to 9 in the November calculation), because 2 matches entered the oldest time frame (Poland and Azerbaijan in Nov. 2007) and just one went out (Poland in Nov. 2006).
If I calculate the difference, I get exactly the 6.25 he mentioned.

and what about Finland, 2x portugal and Czech Republic?? (all in 2007)

Simple: Belgium lost these matches -> 0 points, 0/10 = 0/9 = 0

As for the 1st part, I'm not sure, theoretically the 41.09 should be the combined loss of ALL other matches, not just the 3 he mentioned. (With the shifting of the Nov. matches, all matches lose or gain some points)

Hope this helps a little bit, flob

Author: Bjemmer
Date: 28-12-2010, 19:11

yes I think you did!

I'm going to check this in my calculations, thx for your response!

than the only question remains, what about the opponent strenght:

for example:

-match on october 25th

fifa ranking opponent september: 8
fifa ranking oppenent october: 10

which ranking do I have to use? On the fifa website I can only see the release months.. So do they always use the month before?

thx for the help!

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Bjemmer Date: 28-12-2010, 21:00	pff I still don't get the right numbers I have been trying to fix it for about 2 hours and I still don't get it!! :o can I send you my excel file? thx in advance, grtz

Author: flob
Date: 28-12-2010, 22:21

Hey,
never give up, this is really quite complicated and I have to admit that I didn't have much interest in FIFA ranking until you brought up this thread

I'll give you an example of my calculation of the 6.25:

Date	        Opp.	Result	Status	Strength	Region  Points	New	Old	         Diff
										
22.08.2007	Serbia	3	2,5	18	1,82	1	1365	27,3	30,33333333	-3,033333333
12.09.2007	Kazakh.	1	2,5	115	0,85	1	212,5	4,25	4,722222222	-0,472222222
13.10.2007	Finland	1	2,5	44	1,56	1	390	7,8	8,666666667	-0,866666667
17.10.2007	Armenia	3	2,5	87	1,13	1	847,5	16,95	18,83333333	-1,883333333
									              	-6,25555556

I'm not an expert on this ranking (just coefficient-addicted like most members of this forum

) and I don't know how to do the rounding properly but I think this is correct.

BTW: I used rank 18 for Serbia, which is in fact the 08/2007 rank - in 07/2007 they had a shared rank 17 with Ukraine - maybe this answers your last question. Usually, the ranking is published mid-month around the 15th and probably you'd have to use the last available ranking.

Greetings, flob

P.S.: Feel free to send me your Excel tables to flob2007@yahoo.de, but please give me some time to check it, although I'm off work until January I don't want to spend all my time calculating coeffs

Author: Bjemmer
Date: 29-12-2010, 00:02

haha I won't give up, but I will need some help

I started my interest in club and country coefficients on this site. I like to know how these things work, why Belgium is 13th in ranking, what needs to happen to be 12th.. stuff like this

That's why I really like this site, It explained everything, didn't need any help

Because I couldnt find a site like this for national teams, I started making a excel file for my country, I believe Belgium will rise up the fifa ranking very fast and I want to be able to see that evolving

just like Belgian clubs made a wonderful year, last year, I enjoyed watching those points going up

I found out about the 6,25 when you explained it in your first post, but its the total loss that I still can't figure out..

When I calculate the losses of all those matches, I get 39,44.. and it should be 47 according to Edgar

I will send my excel file to your e-mail, I hope you got the time

I have also added you on msn, that might be easier

thx in advance

grtz

Author: flob
Date: 30-12-2010, 18:41
Edited by: flob
at: 30-12-2010, 18:46

Hi,
after some hours of diving into your sheet and the complex world of FIFA ranking, I finally found the solution that explains everything, Edgars calculations and your differences.
In short:
I had a mistake in my post from 28-12-2010, 15:41.
The Poland matches 2006 and 2007 were already shifted back in November, not in December, the difference 10 vs. 9 matches comes just from shifting Azerbaijan.
I'll discuss the details with you tomorrow via Email or msn.
Greetings, flob

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Bjemmer Date: 31-12-2010, 04:21	thats great!! thanks a lot!!

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Edgar Date: 03-01-2011, 08:34	I was on vacation, sorry for replying so late. It seems flob and you managed to work it out in the end.

Author: Yamor
Date: 04-01-2011, 11:33

Out of curiosity, what is it? Is it dependent on the ranking from the previous month, or the last released ranking (in which case it'd be virtually impossible to calculate the rankings, because we don't know the precise date each month they released the rankings)?

What about the four time periods - if the cutoff date for matches is say 5th Jan 2011, does that mean the cutoff date for the various periods is 5th Jan 2010, 5th Jan 2009, etc? Or is it just dependent on whether they were in December or January?

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Yamor Date: 04-01-2011, 11:38	I think this answers the first question: http://www.football-rankings.info/2008/09/fifa-rankings-september-2008-errors-i i.html

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Edgar Date: 05-01-2011, 07:43	Yamor, the four time frames are determined using the release date, not the cut-off date.

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Yamor Date: 05-01-2011, 09:20	That seems a bit illogical to me... Doesn't that mean the most recent year will always be for a shorter time period then the previous years?

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Edgar Date: 05-01-2011, 09:30 Edited by: Edgar at: 05-01-2011, 10:10	Yes, the most recent time frame will be around 6 days shorter than the other time frames.

Author: Yamor
Date: 05-01-2011, 10:36
Edited by: Yamor
at: 05-01-2011, 10:38

I see, thanks.

Out of curiosity, do you know this from trial-and-error, or do you have some confirmation from somewhere?

Also, does it mean I wouldn't be able to calculate historic rankings, since I won't always know the release date? (I suppose I wouldn't know the cutoff point anyway, so I wouldn't be able to do it even if I would know the release dates.)

Thanks again for taking the trouble to explain all this!

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Edgar Date: 05-01-2011, 12:15	I have confirmation from FIFA. They answered my questions until August 13th, 2009 You can compute historical rankings. If you go to FIFA.com, you'll see there's a "Last updated" label. As you move to older rankings, you'll see all the release dates. You're welcome.

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Yamor Date: 05-01-2011, 14:32	What about the cutoff point? Is there any way to find out past cutoff points - i.e. which matches were included in that months ranking?

Re: National Team Ranking Coefficients
Author: Edgar Date: 07-01-2011, 08:05	Not really - there's only archive.org to see older versions of team's ranking details. That's what's annoying about computing older rankings.