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What happens in this scenario?
Author: mauro77 Date: 01-12-2010, 12:57	Hi all, Usually in the domestic cup the final cup looser gets the last EL place when the cup winner has qualified to CL through domestic league. (Otherwise the next league entrant) But what happens when the cup winner has not qualified to CL through domestic league but won the CL...? So does in such a case still the final cup looser get the last EL place?? Cheers Mauro

Re: What happens in this scenario?
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 01-12-2010, 16:17	No, I believe in this case the country gets an extra CL place (when they don't have 4 CL-spots already) and 1 less EL spot (since the 1st EL-spot won't be used because that club has qualified for the CL as TH). In the case the country has 4 CL-spots the 4th in the league will qualify for EL instead (max 4 clubs in the CL).

Author: Friesland
Date: 01-12-2010, 18:04

Forza-AZ is right.

The TH spots are awarded after all associations have named their domestic qualifiers. Then the UEFA adds the titleholders, or puts them in the right stage. So in your case the team is named as the CW, but when the associated sends the list to the UEFA they promote them to CLTH.

Things would be easier if the TH spots were simply abolished. I mean there aren't TH spots in the EURO, the NT World Cup and the Club World Cup. So, why should there be TH for European Club Champion and the winner of the Coupe UEFA?

Re: What happens in this scenario?
Author: mauro77 Date: 01-12-2010, 18:48	Yes, my fault... :-( If the cup winer wins the CL then it is promoted to CL, but this spot stays empty anyway... And only in case this situation happens in the best 3 ranked countries then the 4th must leave CL and go to EL - but not as a replacement of the CL winner but there where a vacancy exists in the last possible round (Only UEFA knows it what does this mean ;-)

Re: What happens in this scenario?
Author: mauro77 Date: 01-12-2010, 18:51	Friesland, you cannot compare EURO or WC with European cups... In the competitions above EVERY team starts in the same stage during in the European case it would be unfair to put the title holders to the first/second stage and the others to later stages... Mauro

Author: badgerboy
Date: 01-12-2010, 19:12
Edited by: badgerboy
at: 01-12-2010, 19:15

I guess I misunderstood the original question.

The answers so far seem to be right but they don't totally answer the question as I understood it.

To take an English example - lets say Spurs win the FA Cup & the Champions League & finish 5th in the Premier League.

I agree that Spurs take the TH spot in the CL & that the team that is 4th in the PL (lets say Manchester City) drop to the EL.

What I'm not 100% sure of is who gets the final EL spot. Lets say Bolton are 6th in the PL & Sunderland 7th - but Liverpool are beaten Cup Finalists. Assume the League Cup Winner is CL qualified.

If Tottenham had finished 4th in the league & won the FA Cup & the CL then the last EL spot would have gone to Liverpool. If Tottenham had finished 5th in the league & won the FA Cup but not won the CL the last EL spot would have gone to Sunderland. But I'm not totally sure who gets the last spot when they are 5th & win the CL + the Cup.

I do vaguely recollect this being answered last year though. Didn't mauro himself come up with every possible scenario at some stage?

By the way - I think the question still holds for a non-top 3 country. Lets say Bayern win the CL & finish 4th in Germany. Yes - Germany gets 4 CL spots & only 2 EL spots. But I'm not sure if these 2 spots go to the 5th & 6th in the league or the 5th + the Cup loser.

Author: mauro77
Date: 01-12-2010, 19:35
Edited by: mauro77
at: 01-12-2010, 22:21

@Badgerboy: Yes it was me with the scenarios, now I'm programming them in C++ so I recheck some...

Regarding German scenario: This was exactly my question, but I assume that in this case the 5th and the 6th are the EL entrants and not the cup finalist. The reason is because as Forza/Friesland have said the domestic list would show Bayern as cup winner and therefore qualified for EL as also the 5th and the 6th. Lateron UEFA would switch Bayern to CL TH and let the other teams staying...

Only in case Bayern would be one of the best 3 and cup winner then the cup finalist would take part in EL as last entrant (If not already qualified for CL/EL through domestic league) ;-)

Re: What happens in this scenario?
Author: mauro77 Date: 01-12-2010, 19:46	@badgerboy: could you collect your English scenarios to topcs: 1... 2... ?? Then I could try to answer your questions. :-)

Author: Friesland
Date: 01-12-2010, 20:19

badgerboy wrote:

If Tottenham had finished 4th in the league & won the FA Cup &
 the CL then the last EL spot would have gone to Liverpool. If
 Tottenham had finished 5th in the league & won the FA Cup but not
 won the CL the last EL spot would have gone to Sunderland. But I'm
 not totally sure who gets the last spot when they are 5th & win the
 CL + the Cup.

The TH scenario start from the axiom that all domestic spots all already filled in. So, Tottenham are assumed to have England's CW spot. Which means the last EL spot would be awarded to Sunderland.

In the final allocation Tottenham gets the CLTH, while the number 4 gets the CW spot. The qualified teams can't change of course, so Sunderland keeps their entitlement for the last EL spot.

Author: mauro77
Date: 01-12-2010, 22:12

For me the same case as in the German case above.
When the 5th placed Tottenham wins FA cup and the CL then in domestic list they are listed as cup winners what makes Sunderland joining the last EL spot.

The unique case where Liverpool (FA cup finalist) would be able to join the last EL spot would be when the FA cup winner (Tottenham) would be qualified for CL through their domestic league (Place 1st - 4th).

Author: badgerboy
Date: 03-12-2010, 15:50

As is often the case I enter these discussions "determined" not to refer to the actual regulations & end up doing so anyway.

The regulations state:

"2.04 If the winner of the domestic cup qualifies for the UEFA Champions League, the domestic cup runner-up qualifies for the UEFA Europa League at the stage initially reserved for the lowest ranking top domestic league representative (or the winner of another official domestic competition in accordance with paragraph 2.03)".

So for me the regulation doesn't differentiate between a domestic cup winner that has qualified for the UEFA CL through the domestic league or by some other means (as TH). So if my team lost the cup final to any CL qualified team I'd expect to be playing in the EL the following season.

Of course my interpretation might be totally wrong. But it's one of these cases where I might need it to actually happen (or at least to see some clear regulations that tell me I'm wrong) to be convinced.

Author: mauro77
Date: 03-12-2010, 20:22

I see here one possible mistake in your mind...

It states:

"If the winner of the domestic cup QUALIFIES for the UEFA Champions League..."

Qualifying means to take part in a competition where the result is to play in the Cl as it is case in domestic leagues...

Champions League is not played for playing CL next year but only for the trophy... But there is only the regulation that the CL winner must take part next year in the CL....

But also me can be wrong here... ;-)

Author: Friesland
Date: 04-12-2010, 00:14

Suppose the CW are national champions and the losing cup finalists end 10th in the league, but wins are the European champions. What would happen?

A) Both teams have qualified for CL, so there is an extra spot for the league.
B) The last spot goes to the European champions.

Now, if A were right thing to happen, the CLTH association would get an extra spot. But the association is not entitled to an extra spot. So, obviously, the last spot goes to CL winners.

Analogously, if the CW were to finish 10th, but wins the CL, they should maintain the CW spot, which means the last spot goes to a league team.

Author: Anitusar
Date: 02-02-2011, 15:11

I am curious about another scenario. It is possible that next year we have a 2nd devision Cup loser and 2 Teams qualified for the EL in Germany, which have no points received in the last 5 years. Of course, they all get the points assigned to Germany. That could lead to the following scenario in Q4: The cup loser and the N4 have the same points and are placed in position 40 and 41.

My question is: Which team gets seated? Is it CL > N4 > N5?

Re: What happens in this scenario?
Author: flob Date: 02-02-2011, 15:18	In that case normally the team that is higher placed in the league gets seeded. Cup winners would be above, but cup losers don't get this bonus, so in your example it would be N4 > N5 > CL.

Author: deathawk
Date: 04-02-2011, 01:07
Edited by: deathawk
at: 04-02-2011, 01:18

Mauro, I am pretty sure the answer to your question is simply "no, the cup losers don't get the spot".

For England, this is definitely the case (that the loser won't get it), one canlook here:

Using this Wiki link as reference:
England European Qualification

As I read this table in terms of where teams slot: If the FA Cup winner also won the champions league, but did not achieve a top 4 Premier league place, they are given the EL spot that goes with winning the cup, but then "Swap" competitions with the team that did place 4th. The FA Cup loser won't enter the picture here at all.

Since Tottenham are now out of the FA Cup, lets use Chelsea as our stalking horse in an example. To simply things further, lets also assume Birmingham win the League cup but finish 7th, and that Chelsea beat a team not in the Premier league in the FA cup final, but also win the CL. Now if this is the final league position:

1) Manchester United (CL By Position)
2) Arsenal (CL By Position)
3) Tottenham (CL BY Position)
4) Manchester City (Was CL By Position, becomes EL)
5) Liverpool (EL Via 5th League Spot)
6) Chelsea (Was EL by FA Cup, becomes CL via TH)
7) Birmingham (EL by League Cup)

The non PL team that lost the cup has no standing here.

What happens is that these seven are England's teams for Europe, but Manchester City is bumped to the EL, and Chelsea takes their place in the CL. Note is does not matter if you swap Chelsea into the 5th slot and bump Liverpool to 6. In that case, since Chelsea won the Cup, the "League Position" slot goes to the next available team, which is Liverpool - The domestic cup winner has priority for EL qualification, but the CL-EL swap occurs AFTER those are determined.

Having trouble getting a clean copy of the CL regs, but I suspect the same is true type of scenario is true for other associations.