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| Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K??? | |
| Author: ssrree
Date: 04-11-2010, 08:38 | I dont like separated drows for champions and non-champions.Like this some realy weak teams comings to CL/GS. |
| Re: Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K??? | |
| Author: Zhund0r
Date: 04-11-2010, 09:02 | Well, go complain to Platini  On the one hand it was no bad idea to have more champions in CL, but on the other hand they need to establish better squads with the new CL money they get. It won't help them much, if they only play CL once in a while, so I guess there will always be some ridiculous weak opponents. I wouldn't overrate it, though. Even clubs like Roma or Sporting got trashed like that before. |
| Re: Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K??? | |
| Author: seso
Date: 04-11-2010, 09:12 | Nooooooooooooooo Ssrree!!! All these years we had discussions about not having enough champions in the GS, and you now want the opposite! I think it's a good thing to have champions. |
| Re: Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K??? | |
| Author: FrancoisD
Date: 04-11-2010, 13:17 | Please let's first prove that Zilina couldn't have qualified with previous system before you make conclusions about the value of the system. Zilina had rather lucky draws in qualification round (w.r.t coefficient of seeded opponent), and when seeing the 2008 qualification of BATE Borisov and Anorthosis Famagusta, nothing really indicates that Zilina's presence is 100% due to Platini's reform. |
| Re: Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K??? | |
| Author: nemesys
Date: 04-11-2010, 13:29 | I dont like separated drows for champions and non-champions.Like this some realy weak teams comings to CL/GS. uhm... so you want QRs with all clubs toghether. Well, since Zilina did qualify from QR CH, you can suppose they are in the best middle-low Country Champions we have. As a consequence you might suppose that a NC facing in QRs one of those clubs (middle-low Country Champions) will have better chances to qualify compard to the Platini's model where it has to face a NC from Top Countries. In another discussion you said the opposite, that with all clubs toghether you will have more Champions and more Countries represented in CL, and you tried to prove it in many different ways... I don't really get your point: either you want a CL of the strongest clubs in Europe, or you want a CL of the Champions of Europe with more countries represented in the tournament, no matter how competitive the clubs are, which (this second option) is what I belived beeing your opinion from your previous posts, as for example here. Top countries clubs are more competitive than other, it is not me saying that, it is the Ranking  So if you believe that more countries deserve a chance in CL, either you take Platini's model with CH/NC paths, or you (as in the examples Axel and myself showed in the other discussion) reduce the number of clubs from Top Countries in QRs (taking out few or all of those clubs from NC path), allowing so few more spots for middle-low ranked countries. Mixing up again the clubs in QRs will just bring, as an average, more NC from Top Countries in CL (this is statistically proved, as others showed in that deiscussion). You can't say IMO Zilina doesn't deserve a CL spot but other Champions from middle-low countries yes, because Zilina qualified eliminating those other Champions, so what makes you believe those other clubs would do better facing a club like Marseille? I hope I'm not offending you, but it is really hard for me to understand your point of view. nemesys. |
| Re: Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K??? | |
| Author: ssrree
Date: 04-11-2010, 14:17 | I think BATE Borisov,Anderlecht and Dinamo Zagreb are much stronger teams than Zilina,but they didnt pass to CL.QR start in summer times and many clubs are still not ready,but Zilina was in Top form and they pass Litex and Sparta.I think Sparta is now stronger than Zilina too. Maybe we need some changes if we want the best clubs in the CL/GS. Maybe Q groups of 5 teams,and the winer pass in CL/GS.In two games in summer, many times weaker club passing |
| Re: Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K??? | |
| Author: nemesys
Date: 04-11-2010, 14:40 | @ssrree you really love complexity  And, this is a personal opinion, beside adding complexity and official matches with little appeal in July, what you propose won't help Bate Borisov, Anderlecht and Dinamo Zagreb to qualify for CL, which you say it is your goal. Again, just my personal opinion. nemesys. |
| Re: Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K??? | |
| Author: ssrree
Date: 04-11-2010, 14:48 | Separated drow is a bad,and makes easier way to some weak teams to come to CL.I dont like it.At home 0-7,you cant see even in the 1st and 2nd CL/QR where are playing teams from Andora,Malta and San Marino.Shame! |
| Re: Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K??? | |
| Author: Overgame
Date: 04-11-2010, 14:54 | Feyenoord lost 10-0 vs PSV, they should be excluded from Eredivisie. No ? Let's be serious, there are some weak teams EVERY YEAR. Basel got 1 single point in 2008 (Barcelona needed 1 point to be qualified, and go wonder where they got the point) with 2 goals scored and 16 conceded. In 2007, Dynamo Kiev ended with 0 point and 4-19 for the goals. 2006 : Levski and 0 1-17. 2004 : Roma 1 point, 4-16. Anderlecht : 0 4-17. And those were BEFORE Platini's change :p |
| Re: Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K??? | |
| Author: Friesland
Date: 04-11-2010, 15:42 Edited by: Friesland at: 04-11-2010, 15:43 | Well, in the current format, the champions (except of three in the third qualifying round) have to play 6 matches to reach the group stage. In groups of five teams only have to play 4 matches to reach the group stage. On forum 2, Lubomir25 made a similiar proposal: See here I think it sounds very interesting, especially the fact, that we need less MDs, to complete the qualification. It could go as follows: Preliminary round: (4 or 5 ties, depending on TH spot) 1) HB - Jeunesse 2) TNS - Rudar 3) Tre Fiori - Birkirkara 4) Santa Coloma - Linfield Group qualification: Group 1 Group 2 Group 3 Group 4 Group 5 |
| Re: Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K??? | |
| Author: caravaj
Date: 05-11-2010, 12:31 | And without playing the match once again drinking beers, let's remember that Zilina could very well win in Marseille : they deserve a penalty kick and the goal of Marseille was a lucky one. |
| Re: Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K??? | |
| Author: FrancoisD
Date: 05-11-2010, 16:29 Edited by: FrancoisD at: 05-11-2010, 16:56 | I decided to see how far the qualification rounds are from what they were under previous rules. So I tried to see which 2010-2011 teams would have been seeded in each QR if rules had stayed the same as in 2008-2009. I present it as pseudo results of draw and qualification, where I try to use as many actual results as possible (bolded team means the team was succesful in the equivalent QR, * means this season's draw would have respected team's starting QR and seeding). Possible QR1 Dinamo Zagreb * NK Koper Possible QR2
Assuming bolded teams win allow for the exact same teams in group stage. Possible QR3 Arsenal - Sparta Praha Under previous rules, Zilina should have had a stronger opponent in QR3, instead of Sparta Praha but also an easier one in QR2. The main effect of the reform is better seen on Fenebahçe/Bursaspor and Glasgow Rangers/Celtic cases than on lucky Zilina : 10-13 ranked countries champions are protected, their runner up get difficult draws (with a better chance to play Europa league). |
| Re: Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K??? | |
| Author: pinkerton
Date: 05-11-2010, 16:52 | to ssrree: You think BATE Borisov,Anderlecht and Dinamo Zagreb are much stronger teams than Zilina. Based on what? In last 3 years Zilina eliminated Litex Lovec, Sparta Prague, Hajduk Split, Levski Sofia and won against Aston Villa (in Villa Park) in ELGS. If you watched on the match (I hope), you could see very bad tactics. But find also previous match OM - Zilina and compare them. |
| Re: Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K? | |
| Author: Malko
Date: 05-11-2010, 17:25 | LOL......you really think vs a french non-champion like Lyon Zilina could have a better result? I have seen Zilina live here in Dudelange vs F91 Dudelange. They were about same level, lightyears away from teams like Marseille, Lyon or Auxerre. |
| Re: Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K??? | |
| Author: ssrree
Date: 05-11-2010, 17:27 Edited by: ssrree at: 05-11-2010, 17:34 | I watched Zilina few times,they are not so bad like last results 0-7 look.But I watched also BATE Borisov,Anderlecht and Dinamo Zagreb and I am sure,they are beter than Zilina.And not just Zilina,they are beter than Partizan and Hapoel too! Partizan was lucky against Anderlecht,and Anderlecht was in bad form.BATE lost from real strong Kobenhavn and Dinamo lost from Sheriff,unlucky on penals.Zilina destroyed Sparta in PO,but Sparta was realy teriblle like Dinamo and Anderlecht in the begining of the season. Litex,Hajduk and Levski are nothing special.Aston Villa allways loosing in EL,Sparta was in teriblle form,but now Sparta is much stronger than few months ago. |
| Re: Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K??? | |
| Author: pinkerton
Date: 05-11-2010, 17:38 | Yes, Litex, Hajduk and Levski are nothing special. Like Zilina, Dinamo Zagreb and Borisov. Nothing special, the same level. |
| Re: Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K??? | |
| Author: ssrree
Date: 06-11-2010, 08:55 Edited by: ssrree at: 06-11-2010, 12:40 | @Pinkerton,take a look UEFA Team coefficients 2010/2011! 13.Kobenhavn... 9.9800 29.BATE Borisov 8.0750 38.Basel........6.9000 45.Dinamo Z.....5.8250 46.Hapoel.......5.7750 -------------------------- 49.Lech.........5.6500 50.Sparta.......5.5500 57.Partizan.....4.7000 58.Zilina.......4.6000 65.Anderlecht...3.7200 ------------------------ 75.Salzburg.....2.8750 88.Rosenborg....2.4750 89.Debrecen.....2.4500 93.Sheriff......2.3250 So,you can see which champion is stronger in this season.Till the end of season,I expecting Hapoel will lose the place in Top 5. Lech,Sparta and Anderlecht have a good chances to pass group and to finish season in Top 5(champs from countries 14-53). |
| Re: Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K??? | |
| Author: badgerboy
Date: 06-11-2010, 13:03 | Yes ssrree - but that's because it's (much?) easier to pick up points in the EL than the CL. Who knows how many points teams like Hapoel, Zilina & Partizan could have got in the EL and how few Dinamo Zagreb, Lech, Sparta & BATE would have achieved in the CL. I do agree that it's a shame that the fate of so many teams is decided in what is basically pre-season for a lot of the teams. But to say - "look that team has more points over the season so they must be better" when they are playing different competitions is wrong. Looking at the actual results - in both competitions - the only team I feel really sorry for in terms of them missing out on the CL is BATE. They have great results themselves in the EL and were only narrowly beaten by FC Kobenhavn - who have themselves done great in the CL. Of course Rosenberg also lost only narrowly to the same team but their follow-up results haven't been as good. |
| Re: Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K??? | |
| Author: ssrree
Date: 07-11-2010, 14:55 | Dinamo Z. won Villarreal 2-0 at home and Brugge 0-2 away. Lech won Manchester City 3-1 at home and played 3-3 with Juve away. Sparta won Palermo 3-2 at home and Lausanne 1-3 away. Bate won AZ 4-1 at home,and played 2-2 with Dinamo K.away+ twice beat Sheriff. Villarreal is third in Spanish liga,Manchester City forth in Premiership,Juventus forth in Serie A,Dinamo Kiev second in Ukraine,so all this clubs are on the high level. CL is stronger then EL,but not so much that teams which passing GS in EL,should stay without any points in CL. |
| Re: Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K??? | |
| Author: pinkerton
Date: 07-11-2010, 21:49 | OK, in this autumn, Zilina beat Sparta in both games, just before Sparta beat Lech Poznan :-) |
| Re: Zilina-Marseille 0-7,is it separated drow O.K??? | |
| Author: KRBY
Date: 07-11-2010, 22:05 | The results like Zilina's is 100% because of platini changes. They didn't face a strong enough team, which had much fewer coefficients like Sampdoria (there much was a really thriller against Werder), Sporting Braga (which eliminated Celtic) or Dinamo Kyiv which were unlucky against Ajax. Obviously these teams didnt qualify by facing tough opponents to be replaced by teams like Zilinas. I want also to add that if there was not such seperation, teams like Young Boys which eliminated a great team Fenerbahce and did a great victory against Tottehnam, could have done well in CL. Instead of those teams, we see Zilina. OK they are champions, but what champions?? Of the great Slovak League! If they were worthy to pass to CL., at least to eleiminate a good team. Results like Zilina, is not unique. Yes, it was truth that there were bad presences in the CL. before Platini, however there were not so many teams doing bad as before. And really not 0-7 at home! Because oit was said about Bate and Anorthosis, I want to remind you that those teams QUALIFIED BY MORE DIFFICULT OPPONENTS and I can say they worthed to be in the top 32 of Europe. Bate, after being unseeded in all the rounds, they eliminated Anderlecht which at that time had 41.810 coeff. too big enough to worth to be in CL. To get such coeefficients means you did a number of achievements in Europe. Anorthosis qualification was even more worthy; they eliminated the GREEK CHAMPIONS OLYMPIAKOS which were at the round of 16 the previous years with 51.525! No more comment. For me was not a coincidence that those teams were neither Zilinas, Hapoel or Partizan. |