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Author: kurt
Date: 21-12-2009, 12:37
| superleague and atlantic will never come in my eyes, but i see this future
in my eyes i only see 2-3 neighbours countries merge together for a part of the competition and then split for the second part of the competition,so they can keep european spots and easy for relegation to lower divisions
and the first countries that i see to become is austria and swiss
why ? because they both have only 10 teams in their highest league
for belgium 16 teams and netherlands 18 teams it will be more difficult
how can austria / swiss do it ? and simulteanious te keep all european tickets ?
the only solution is to merge in the beginning of the season and to play further with only teams of the same country, let me explain
now, austria and swiss has both countries has 10 teams, so the total is 20 teams
let's them play each other 1 game. so total matches will be 19
then the points gained will be kept for the rest of the season
then each country has a normal competition with 10 teams of their own country, so another 18 matches or 9 matches ( then you can regulate home and away from clubs from the same country )
total matches will be 37 matches ( now is it 36 matches )
oke, now you can say, home and away is not correct, but you can guide that for a little bit that an austrian team has equal topteams at home or away against topteams from swiss, based on results of previous year )
this will be the future
little countries like belgium,portugal has already gone from 18 teams to 16 teams and i think netherlands and ohter countries will soon following this
why is 16 teams better then 18 teams ? you have more tv-rights, you have a better competition, the 2 worst teams and probably 4 matches with little fans are gone ) the calender will be easier and you have more room for playoffs or testmatches and so on
and in 10 years the nex step will be competition with 10/12 teams of each country merging with neighbour with also 10/12 teams
2 countries with 10 teams, already explained
phase 1 : 19 matches
phase 2 : 9 or 18 matches
total : 28 or 37 matches
2 countries with 12 teams, the best possible format
phase 1 : 22 matches
phase 2 : 11 matches
total : 33 matches
this is for me the best format, then you have equal home and away matches for the clubs meeting in the same country
only for the 11 matches against clubs from other country you have 6/5 homematch and 5/6 awaymatch
but you gain a lot, more topmatches, more tv income
keep in mind this will be in my eyes the future for leages who now are playing with 16-18 teams
so they can perfectly have a merged league in first division and second division
2 countries with 14 teams
phase 1 : 27 matches
phase 2 : 13 matches
total : 40 matches
40 matches is a lot, but keep in mind, a lot of countries now rankend in countryranking 20 or lower they only have little european matches so they can play 40 matches
now belgian league has with 16 teams format, 30 and 10 match playoffs has 40 matches and 3 teams still in action in europe, anderlecht ,brugge and standard liege, so do not say it is impossible, but it is a little bit crazy
what do you think ? |
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Author: kurt
Date: 21-12-2009, 12:54
| the belgium competition is this year changed from 18 teams to 16 teams, what was needed but they totally fucked up for all teams except te top 6 teams
this is the format now with 16 teams :
phase 1 : 30 matches
phase 2 , teams 1-6, play another 10 matches,total matches is 40 matches, half of the points in phase 1 will be kept
phase 2; teams 7-14, this are 8 teams, there will be 2 groups of 4 teams and the groupwinner against each other and then the winner against a team ranked 4-5 for the lowest european ticket
so a little crazy , typical belgian
phase 2 : team 15, must play 3 months without football and then against 3 other teams from second devision a total of 6 matches to see if they can stay in highest devision
phase 2 : team 16, is immediately relagated ( has 10 matches less then te top 6 and more then 3 months no income of matches )
so, i hope here are belgian readers or belgian footballers or belgian man with big influence in football clubs, why not this proposal
competition with 16 teams, that is 4 times 4
phase 1 : 30 matches
phase 2 : team 1-4, another 6 matches ( 18 points to fight for), all points in phase 1 will be kept for 100 %
phase 2 : team 13-16, another 6 matches ( 18 points to fight for), all points in phase 1 will be kept for 100 %
phase 2 : team 5-12, this is a little harder, but they fight for the last european ticket, and is garantueed for this group, no testmatches with team from group team1-4
here are 8 teams, so 2 groups of 4 teams, they start with bonus points
so in group 1 : you have team5 with 6 bonus points, team 8 with 4 bonus points,team 9 with 2 bonus points and team 12 with 0 bonus points
so in group 2 : you have team 6 with 6 bonus points, team 7 with 4 bonus points, team 10 with 2 bonus points and team 11 with 0 bonus points
the 2 groupwinners play a best of 3 for the last european ticket
i would like te heare from everydody, this is much better then we have got now ? do you agree or not
with this format ALL clubs are playing whole season and guarenteed 36 matches or more |
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Author: Wak
Date: 21-12-2009, 15:40
Edited by: Wak
at: 21-12-2009, 15:47 | The Belgians are crazy. I don't think that cutting the points in half is good for the beauty of the competition (less interesting clashes, unfair behaviors).
The Belgium new league system is very mean, and petty-minded.
The devil is in the details :
* big teams will not care much about big clashes because
--> 1) they are sure to be in the Top 6 AND
--> 2) their points will be divided by two later
CONCLUSION
They can concentrate on Champions League and Europa League and get maximum points in Group Stages and First Knockout Stages, that is, before the playoffs!
EXAMPLE
Standard Liège (title holder) who are 15 points behind Anderlecht (runners-up). Well, if they can reduce it to 12 before mid-march, then they go in playoffs and the difference shrinks to 6.
Their change was so strange that any proposals (kurt's) would beat it. |
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Author: JK
Date: 21-12-2009, 17:07
| There are 30 matchdays with 16 teams in the Belgian league. That is already quite much and some Belgian teams are also playing in Europe.
If they nevertheless want to have more games, they could invent a more elaborate Belgian cup with more games.
Or they could ask the Netherlands if they would be interested in a regular small club competition with each other.
That second phase sounds odd. I would try to have in another way more games. |
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Author: kurt
Date: 21-12-2009, 18:45
| to JK
did you read my suggestion ? that is format with 36 matches and 16 teams, and it is fair, all points are kept, the top 4 play playoffs ( 6 matches ) and points kept from the previous 30 matches, the last 4 team play the playdowns ( 6 matches ) and points kept from the previous matches, the middle 8 teams play 6 matches for the last uefa ticket
what do you think about that ? |
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Author: JK
Date: 21-12-2009, 19:50
| @ kurt
Your suggestion sounds better than the new format, but I still don't like it much. I just don't like the idea to divide a league into smaller groups.
By the way why are those 30 matchdays not enough? The German Bundesliga with its 18 teams sometimes play in the middle of the week because there aren't enough weekends. There is the winter and summer break, the national team, games of the CL and EL, and the cup competition. I guess even with four league matchdays less, the calendar would still be quite full and the teams would have enough opportunity to play including those not playing in Europe.
40 league matchdays sound really quite much. Had the Belgian league something like the second phase when it still had 18 teams or are they only now trying to compensate the four less matchdays? |
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Author: Overgame
Date: 21-12-2009, 20:03
| They are trying to find more dates for the added 6 MD.
No more winter break (wonderful idea, when every 2 years or so, there are a few games delayed), they're starting earlier (and can't finish later when a WC or an Euro will be played).
This change is awful, with the exception of a few top teams, noone like it. |
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Author: kurt
Date: 21-12-2009, 20:03
| @ JK
the belgian football has for decades 18 teams with 34 matches, end of story
but the topteams want a league with 12/14 teams but the weaker clubs did nog want that, so they came to the solution 16 teams, everybody less or more happy
but that is in practise 4 matches less and 2 homematches, what is a lot of money appearantly for the clubs, so they wanted to add extra matches to compensate the loss
but 10 extra matches for top6 is overacting, tv rights increased a lot now offcourse, the tv can broadcast more games
but especially for team15 and team16 that is suicidal, they go bankrupt in my eyes, 3 months without matches |
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Author: Wak
Date: 21-12-2009, 21:47
| Excellent kurt! You gave me an idea!
Every league applies the same punition to its 2 last teams: 2 months without a match! Therefore, they are forced to create friendlies with other european teams in the same shit. We get the UEFA Reverse Champions League. Which expands to all mid-table teams, and finally everyone plays in Europe! :-D |
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Author: kurt
Date: 21-12-2009, 22:47
Edited by: kurt
at: 21-12-2009, 23:54 | 16 teams is good for a competition, like portugal, but then just 30 games , end of story
for belgium with only 10 million people, 18 teams is impossible to stay a live for the 18 clubs, even now with 16 clubs, 1 team moeskroen is going to bankrupt
i think that belgium was the smallest country in universe with 18 teams in the highest league, so they had to change, but with a better solution
and if the clubs want more matches, then off course belgium clubs have invented the worst possible scenario, nobody in the universe could invent so worse
there are certain better solutions with 16 teams competition |
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Author: Wak
Date: 22-12-2009, 01:22
Edited by: Wak
at: 22-12-2009, 01:31 | The ratio club / habitant is not interesting, because it does not take into account economical, logistical values. AND reducing the number of clubs reduces the number of games, so it's has to be thought at lenght (France has been with 18 during just... 4 seasons!)
If you look a little more to the scale of the countries populations in Europe: Russia 141 000 000 San Marino 29 973
4800 times more... but that will not last, as Russia's population is decreasing :p
The league's changing formulas are a desperate cry for HELP that can only be helped out by destroying the national leagues themselves!
Only blind people don't see that as every year little leagues change their formulas, every year we face the same reality: if Europe is your dream, forget your country. |
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Author: kurt
Date: 22-12-2009, 10:18
| i do not agree
What is a interesting good competition ? if anderlecht have a budget of 50 million euro and the 18th club only has 3 million euro budget.
This is not competition, this is amateurism versus professionalisme.
And in Belgium the last 10 years in the highest division went clubs bankrupt and problems with the ranking. Have you ever seen this in other countries ? i do not think so.
Every year there is a club going to a judge, for getting licence.
The economic situation in Belgium is too small for 18 clubs, even for 16 clubs. The main reason to shrink the number of clubs down to 16 was for this reason. A lot of reports and studies have proved that. |
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Author: badgerboy
Date: 22-12-2009, 15:19
| The problem with the Belgian system - and the original Dutch system of a few years ago - is really in the middle of the league.
I don't really agree with Championship play-offs because in Europe we are used to a league of 16/18/20 teams with everyone playing each other home & away & at the end the team at the top - which should be the best over the course of the whole season - wins. But if countries want to try this - whether with all points carried forward, half points carried forward or no points at all carried forward (as in the US) I guess it's up to them.
But for me the teams in the middle of the league should simply stop playing after 30 games - because I don't think anyone cares over much about playing lots of games with the potential prize of one European place at the end. Especially as the teams finishing below 6th over 30 games don't really deserve a chance of the European spot in the first. In other words the Belgian FA is artificially creating the possibility of this European spot just to give these teams something fairly pointless to play for.
As for the future. I have no idea of if & when merged leagues will happen. But I don't really see the point of the proposals in Kurt's original post.
Taking Switzerland & Austria as an example you do one of two things:
1) Merge the top flights entirely so you have 10 Swiss & 10 Austrian teams playing a full 38 game season (or 9+9, 8+8 teams etc). For the European places you can:
a) treat it as a fully merged league (if leagues do merge I guess someone at UEFA will be able to come up with some kind of formula for this)
b) award the places by individual country based on the individual country allocation - so the first 4 Swiss teams & the first 4 Austrian teams get a European spot even if the best Austrian team finishes 11th.
c) do something in the middle so that it might be the top six teams in the league who qualify but each country is guaranteed a minimum of two.
2) You do pretty much the reverse of what Kurt suggests & play the first half of the league as a fully domestic league with the top six teams in each league going forward to the combined second half which decides the combined Champion. |
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Author: Lyonnais
Date: 23-12-2009, 09:56
| for mid-table countries, I like the Scottish system, 12 teams only playing 3 or 4 times every other team for the season.
It enables to keep some concentration of the best teams of the country who have the opportunity to meet 4 times a season without having this points division at the end of the regular season which is always rather controversial. |
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Author: hamlett
Date: 23-12-2009, 11:07
| West Germany and East Germany merged 20 years ago, and Germany is no better than West Germany was. On the other hand, USSR unmerged, and Ukraine and Russia are now 6th and 7th. Merging might help getting more money, but this still has to be proven. |
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Author: kurt
Date: 23-12-2009, 15:41
Edited by: kurt
at: 23-12-2009, 17:45 | @ hamlett
more money is symbol for better players, better competition
why is england at the top ? because there is the most money in europe, end of story
if austria, 6 million people and swiss 6 million people
and there is a sponsor, and the sponsor gets the possiblity to exposure their produkt to 12 million people, they will gave more money
the club can get better players or they can keep their topplayers a little longer , because now a 18-20 year old boy makes a great goal in 1 match and he is to the top 5 countries ( on the bench probably, but he is away )
the biggest money is at england, spain, italy, france and germany
and where are these countries on the ranking? the top 5
and every year the difference between coutries ranked 10th -20th and the big 5 is increasing, so the only way is to merge together with your neighbour, merging but still separate ranking for european spots and relegation in homecountry
and uefa is pro for this idea |
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Author: ssrree
Date: 23-12-2009, 15:44
| The best clubs from litlle countries needs some stronger competition than domestic leagues.The most litlle countries staying without clubs in eurocups allready in summer,anothers staying without clubs in CL and EL till the end of G/S.
I think all litlle countries should have a litlle domestic leagues with 8 or 10 clubs(14 or 18 MD).Domestic league should finish till New year,and in February they should start regional leagues with the best clubs from anothers litlle countries in region.
Lets say Czeh,Austria,Switzerland,Slovakia,Hungary,Croatia and Slovenija.Slovakia,Hungary and Slovenija should have league with 8 clubs and 4 the best clubs in regional leagues.Anothers domestic leagues with 10 clubs and 5 the best clubs goes to regional league in the February.
Regional league with 32 clubs should be from February till the end of May,the same sistem like CL.
Domestic champion and two clubs for EL should be decided for every country after regional leagues.Sistem will be,points from domestic league+points from regional leagues gives champion for every country.
It would be very atractiv competition and clubs would make a good money in regional league,lets say win 200000 euros,remi 100000 euros.
Clubs like Slavia,Sparta,Slovan,Basel,Zurich,Young Boys,Debrecen,Slovan B,Žilina,Dinamo Z.,Hajduk,Maribor,Olimpija,Rapid,Salzburg,Austria W,Sturm should garanted many atractive games and full stadiums.
It would be CL for litlle countries from region! |
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Author: kurt
Date: 23-12-2009, 17:54
Edited by: kurt
at: 23-12-2009, 18:48 | what about the clubs that do not made the top for competition with other neighbours? playing for nothing for months ?
your system is good for the better clubs, but not for the weak clubs
i think the only fair solution is, you begin at the begin of the season to merge wiht neighbour country, this competition just for halve ( 2/3 )season, all points gained will be kept
then every nation goes back on his own for the fight for champions, european places and relegation to lower division
in practice : the most simple way
2 countries with 12 teams,total 24 teams
phase 1 : 23 matches ( all clubs competing once )
phase 2 : 11 matches ( clubs of your own,country, for the second time )
total 34 matches, where against the 11 clubs of your own country ( home and away is equal ) , where against clubs of neighbour ( 6 matches home and 6 matches away, and you can sort it out so that you have a balanced system home and away for strength of opponents )
this way every club can play against club from other country, every club their shirtsponsor will give more money and for the fans it is much more fun that the ending op the competition stays in own country |
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Author: amirbachar
Date: 23-12-2009, 20:08
| Kurt, What's the point of starting with a combined league and continuing with normal league? To make a few more competitive matches? It will be strange to have a league with no real champion at the end of it... Or will the team with most points still be declared as the champion?
Something like the Royal League is more natural IMO. |
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Author: kurt
Date: 23-12-2009, 22:08
| what is the point ? more money offcourse, more tv-rights, bigger sponsors
the points gained in the ' first round ', the combined league,all points will be kept
what do you think a sponsor will pay if the matches will broadcoast for double people as normal
if you take 2 leages of 12 teams
then you have 23 games combined and in total there are 34 matches, so you have 68 % of the matches a league with all teams and just the last 32 % you have national league |
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Author: ssrree
Date: 23-12-2009, 22:29
| If we have domestic league with 10 clubs,after 18 MD,the best 5 clubs goings to the regional league.The worst 5 clubs on the spring plays another 8 matches betwen each other for staying in first league.The worst two going to second league. |
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Author: kurt
Date: 23-12-2009, 22:44
Edited by: kurt
at: 23-12-2009, 22:49 | to ssrree
now a country with 10 teams has 36 matches,the present situation
and you suggest 18+8 = 24 matches
i do not think the clubs will be happy, less matches, less against the topteams,where they have full house by fans
then they only fight 2 times against the topteams instead of 4 times
you can try, but i do not think they like the concept
with my concept, it is good for ALL the clubs
all the clubs benefit from playing in both countries |
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Author: ssrree
Date: 23-12-2009, 23:08
| Yes,but this 5 teams will not be always the worst 5,sometimes they will also play in regional league.And clubs which will play in regional league will become beter and beter,and more and more rich.Such regional league would for few years became strong us Top 5 leagues.Clubs which regulary play in regional league, would became very strong and all big international companies from countries in regional league would be interesting to sponsor such league.
More money in our clubs,beter football they play.Off course,such stronger clubs would make much beter results in CL and EL then now! |
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Author: ssrree
Date: 23-12-2009, 23:29
| Now they play 36 matches,with my system 18 domestic league match,minimum 6 regional league matches in group,2 in 1/16,2 in QF,2 in SF,1 in finale.So 13 matches for finalists in regional league.
But also is posiblle to make a groups with 5 or 6 teams,than will be 8 or 10 matches minimum for all clubs in regional leagues.
The same is for the worst 5 teams in domestic leagues,they can play twice at home and twice out between each others in the spring.So all together 16 matches in the spring for them.
And you can count much more games in CL and EL for clubs from regional leagues,because they will become much stronger soon! |
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Author: Wak
Date: 24-12-2009, 01:29
| Hi everyone and Merry Christmas to all,
those last days I've been thinking about leagues getting ready in advance for some inter-clubs inter-national friendlies during the midweek, at moments (Mon, Fri, Wed 17 CET) that the UEFA could not oppose.
This would make up (=compensate) the need for big match-ups in March and early April, but not later as some leagues would be in their last moments. Which means that, only eliminated teams would participate.
EXAMPLE
MARCH fri sat sun mon tue wed thu fri sat sun mon tue wed thu fri sat
2010 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27
Norway +++ (-- #01 --) @ @ @@ (-- #02 --) +++ (-- #03 --)
Switzer. +++ (-- #24 --) @ @ @@ (-- #25 --) +++ (-- #26 --)
Austria +++ (-- #24 --) @ @ @@ (-- #25 --) (-- #26 --) (-- #27 --)
Scotland +++ (-- #29 --) @ @ @@ (-- Cup --) (-- #30 --) (-- #31 --)
Caption:
#N league Nth matchday
@@ EL or CL matchdays
+++ Friendlies between clubs from different nations
The calendar would be ADAPTED so that teams could keep their 2-full-days of rest. As well as the fixtures: the european scottish teams would face each other. If it's a problem for TV exposure, some fixtures would be switched from one week to another once we know who's eliminated (in December).
For Scotland I switched Cup and #29 for practical reasons, as a travel long from home wouldn't be possible just before a knock-out match.
Other examples for February (Mon 15 and Fri 19 or Mon 22, Fri 26): Cyprus (because in March they have #25 #26 that are crucial) with Greece, Switzerland, Portugal...
What d'ya think? |
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Author: Ricardo
Date: 24-12-2009, 11:40
| I thought about leaving domestic leagues like they are, maybe reduce them with 2 teams, to create some more dates. But then have some more international clubcompetitions for those teams already eliminate from CL&EL.
But anybody followed what happened to the Royal League? That was the kind of thing I liked. But I don't know what happeed to it. Isit still on? How were the audiences for it, how was it received in the countries? Especially Michele, Anita, Kjello can say more about this? Or others from these 'Royal' countries ? |
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Author: nislija
Date: 25-12-2009, 02:22
| in serbia, this year we have 16 teams..crap, if you aks me!
last 3 or 4 years we have league with 12 teams and it was great..33 rounds (one year we have 32 rounds; after 22 matches league was divided to play off and play out group, both with 6 teams = 10 more rounds)
I just want to say that for serbia is best to have 12 teams..we don't have 16 or 18 teams with good infrastructure or stadiums or pitch) also you have 3 matches with every team..
so, last year we havent't had any problems with mid-placed teams bacause thay were all very close to relegation zone..and only one team was relegated..so, every team have something to play for
swiss and austria do nice job..12 or 10 teams = nice league |
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Author: ssrree
Date: 25-12-2009, 16:22
Edited by: ssrree
at: 25-12-2009, 16:30 | Last 5 years all winers in CL and UC were clubs from the big countries.
--------------CL--------------UC
2009------Barcelona-------Shakhtar
2008------Manch.United----Zenit
2007------Milan-----------Sevilla
2006------Barcelona-------Sevilla
2005------Liverpool-------CSKA M.
Last club wich won european cups from a litlle countries was Porto,2004 CL and 2003 UC.Today we have a totaly domination of big countries clubs in european football.So,litlle countries clubs needs some stronger competition than domestic leagues.Regional leagues with the best clubs of 7 or 8 litlle countries together,with population more then 50 milions people would be the right answer,and for few years, we would get much stronger clubs from the litlle countries. |
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Author: putje
Date: 30-12-2009, 00:33
| Belgium has a long tradition in compromises.
This new format is (as Kurt mentioned) a compromise between the top clubs and the little one. And in one way or another it is very simular to the European story. In fact it is more economics than sport.
Big clubs want more games versus other big clubs. In a Benelux / Atlantic league / European league if possible. This should give more TV coveridge and money to get bigger and bigger.
BoBo's of UEFA / National Leagues don't like it at all. In a league ruled/organised by the big ones (money),local BoBo's loses their power. And the smaller teams are left alone.
The last few years UEFA and several countries changed their competitions to try to find a compromise between the money and the sport. I tent to believe that the fans would chose for the sport if they had to.
As for the Belgian solution, it sound a bit bizarre, but every rule has its reason. I think we would give it the benefit from the doubt, and wait a bit before we abandon it completely. The real test would come next year if we have one European spot less to offer.
I prefer the normal 16 teams 30 games laegue. Buth if top clubs want more, I prefer this solution raether than an Benelux league with 8 Belgian teams. |
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Author: borys68
Date: 02-01-2010, 12:12
| IMO Belgian football authorities screwed up. If 18 teams in the top flight are too many, then the best solution I can think off is the Scottish "split season" format - 12 teams, 38 games, the final 5 being between neighbours in the table.
With no League Cup, and thus 3-4 fixtures less, those 38 games would not require as tight a scheduling as in the SPL.
Borys |
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Author: Wak
Date: 14-01-2010, 19:57
| Tighter scheduling? It seems that every league does its best to tighten its schedule!
Spain will have to host the Cup final the Wednesday after the CL final.
France will host the National Cup final the same weekend as matchday #35 with no other date left than the EL final.
England manages to end early, but with 20 matches before January, the Carling Cup final in Feb, and 3-4 matches near the new year.
Even Portugal, with 30 matchdays and a sweet January, was forced to start as early as Aug 15 (against the late-start tradition)
A clogged up scheduling is the natural movement towards goes any sports which has more or less a monopoly, at least as sports #1. |
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