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Author: Wak
Date: 08-10-2009, 23:11

Hi Everyone,

I'd like to know if you have ever tried to imagine a possible Superleague or European League, and what format would it have.

Yeah, the European league is in the air, once again. Or should I say, more than ever.

Firstly, have a look at the Telegraph article which is reporting Arsene Wenger's prediction of a soon-to-be European League.

We can develop the argument:

1) The European Cup have always had its format changed to raise its interest and allow more big matches superior to those of the national leagues - and/in order to eventually, have more money flow:
--- 1955-1991: Same cup format (but changes in seedings and qualification)
--- 1991: Group phase phase (8 teams) before final
--- 1992: "Champions League" brand and music created
--- 1993: Semifinals after group stage
--- 1994: european champions little clubs mostly from poor arriving East Europe (after 24th) excluded
--- 1994: Group stage extended to 16 teams
--- 1997: Group stage extended to 24 teams
--- 1997: Second-placed of best 8 in last qualifying round (and champions after 24th back again - to ease their route?)
--- 1999: Group stage extended to 32 teams
--- 1999: Creation of a "second" group stage of 16
--- 1999: Second-placed of best 5 to group stage, now 3rd- and 4th-placed arrive in last qualifying round
--- 2003: Second group stage replaced with a knock-out round
--- 2009: Champions route made easier & non-champions clashes in last QR

For the last one, I'd read it this way:
.. more champions = protects the brand and expands the competition to new markets in raising East Europe
.. more clashes in QR = raises interest in the competition for earlier rounds. . . not to forget that the playoffs are now sold as a package like all the further rounds

2) Europe outdoes the nations
With the flow of money in the European clubs, many leagues are closed at the top. This is particularly right in the leagues where there is an unequal split of league revenues (Spain, Italy, to compare with England and Germany), which widens the gap twice. But the difference between Real Madrid and, say, FC Zürich, or Chelsea and QPR already existed long before the Euro cups came up.

Europe is the only scale in which there is enough teams not to say who will win at the end - even if you have suprises everywhere. Looking at the CL teams regularly qualified, about 12 same teams de facto top Europe each year from february to may. Twelve teams is better number than in the national championships, but it could be more.

3) The (national) Championships are the problem.
European competition proves that the problem is more on the side of the nations than on Europe's. There is a concentration of big players in the same clubs. And this is normal : this is just the market theory that meets the sport fairness.

But the big clubs play in the same leagues, for economical and sport reasons. And this isn't normal. The market theory bars the Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland, Austria, Turkey, Russia, Scotland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Greece and many others to have one to three big clubs EQUAL to those of the Big2/Big5*, because of their national championship compared to those of the Big2/Big5.

Conclusion
Many calls have been made since the early 90s for a Superleague. Yet, even if we aren't in it, the history seems to go in one way. Arsène and others can easily predict that there is more European competition to come, because that's the law of a fair sport (for Rangers and Celtic) - we just have to open the borders to make the market fairer.

My question
Now let's talk about formats ! Give your ideas about how could change the leagues in Europe. But I haven't been talking so long for shit, so please inspire yourself from my brief history recall: you need to be LOGICAL with what was done before.

For instance: if you think that we're going to a round-robin 16 teams super league. . . you perfectly know that many people will rage against this. If it ever happens, it will be step by step, whether it's a makeup (e.g. 2009) or a silent revolution (e.g. 1991). So if you think about a totally different world of football, say how can that happen little by little ?

Re: Predict: What will the European League look like?
Author: SHEV Date: 09-10-2009, 03:55	Here we go again...

Author: Malko
Date: 09-10-2009, 12:12

Of course, we had already this topic, but some forumists are new.....

My opinion : I am opposite to such an idea for the reasons given .......

But i think there is no danger, even IF THEY DO IT:

already today, people are tired to see always the same teams in the half-finals.........
They wish times back when there was Saint-Etienne, Bruges, Moenchengladbach or Bukarest...........
and at that time, a REAL-MILAN was a REAL event. Today it's a game that we can see 10 times in 4 years.......

Author: ssrree
Date: 09-10-2009, 14:40

CL should be reserved only for champions,like it was before.
Europe Ligue should be reserved for CW and RU,N2,N3,N4 and so on.
All clubs should play Q rounds.
UEFA made a CL like a league of Top 5 countries(they got a 13 clubs directly inside and 5 more in CL/PO,all together 18 clubs from 32)and its allready boring to watch them,every year the same clubs.
On another way UEFA destroyed UC and now they traying with EL.In EL money prizes are very bad,no strong clubs from Top 5 leagues,because they are all in CL,termin in thursday is teriblle after 2 days of CL.
Nobody cares for EL,because no money in!

Author: kurt
Date: 09-10-2009, 15:28

it is said manytimes, 10 years back

i do not believe in superleague

why not ?

1) what with the domestic leagues ?
2) boring and boring, always the same teams against each other
1 time liverpool - ac milan, then you have something to look forward, now you have the choose between all the topmatches and if you miss to watch, dont worry, in 2 weeks again 5 topmatches that you can see

3) how do you determine the teams ? there will be law suits, because it goes for a lot of money

what will be the future ?

i think to please the topteams, there will be again a second poule round after the first round champions league, so all( a lot ) topteams are sure of 12 matches and a lot of tv rights and income for homematches

Re: Predict: What will the European League look like?
Author: Wak Date: 11-10-2009, 21:17	There was already a second group phase. But the thought of a double Inter-ManU is better when you know that one will fall down. In a group stage, they still have a chance to go further with a loss or a draw, and thus they won't give themselves 101 %. That's why there is no more 2nd group stage since 2003.

Author: Axel
Date: 11-10-2009, 23:39

Sorry, I can't imagine a scenario where Bayern Munich would leave the Bundesliga -in which they regularly win titles- for a real Superleague where they might get more money (at first), but where they couldn't win any titles...?
That's why we have European Cups.
That's why we have the CL, to check who is the best in Europe.
The CL is our Superleague.
As long as CL is successful, and in my honest opinion I can't see a slightest sign of change, we won't get any Superleague.

Well, if you really like to think about a real Superleague, I think it must be close to things that already exist, which is suitable, like the American systems.

I don't know why we would love to have such systems in football.
We have so many European countries and cultures.
Why we should give up our domestic leagues which are part of our identity - our culture?
As long as we have domestic 'derbys' which mean a lot to the people, I can't see anyone who wants to leave the current system.
Why should Rangers & Celtic give up their rivalry about the Scottish top? For money? No way. Just one example.

As Wenger said, the domestic leagues will survive.

So it's the question of how our European Cups change.

The CL 2nd group stage isn't a good idea, that's why it was abolished - as Wak said.

One thought could be a blown-up group stage. For example 6 teams per group. But I don't know how it should work exactly.

Author: babasol
Date: 12-10-2009, 02:53

I think for a litlle countries in Europe,less then 20 milions people,Uefa should organize Leagues for few countries,and then let 7,8 clubs from this leagues in CL and EL.
Problem in litlle countries are that the best clubs have not enough strong matches.So in Europe we could make a North ligue(Sweden,Norway,Finland,Island,Denmark),East league(Hungary,Serbia,Bosnia,Bulgaria,Macedonia,Albania,Moldova),Midlle leagueSwitzerland,Austria,Czech,Slovakia,Slovenia,Croatia)West ligue(Netherlands,Belgian,Luxemburg,Scotland,North Ireland,Ireland) and so on.Then for few years the best clubs from this countries would become much stronger and CL would be much more interesing than now.
Its allready boring to watch the same clubs every year in 1/16 CL.
Its a very defecoult to make a strong clubs in a litlle countries.
I think for a strong league, country needs minimum 30,40 milions people.In country ranking we can see that all big countries are on the top,just Poland didnt,but for 5 or 10 years they will also come to the Top ten!

England,Spain,Italy,Germany,France,Russia,Ukrainne,Turkey.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 12-10-2009, 12:46

I can't really imagine a European Super League ever totally replacing the domestic league.

For a start what would the clubs do on their off days if they only had a full European league programme rather than domestic league + European Cups?

Second - how interesting would Manchester United-Real Madrid or Liverpool-Milan be to fans if when these teams played the title race was already over & the teams concerned were playing for mid-table mediocrity?

I suppose the question is - will the current midweek set-up of Champions League + Europa League be replaced by something else - even a full league? I suppose it might be possible to fit in a full league programme (say 16 teams so 30 weeks) playing every week but allowing for international breaks + the usual summer break & a few weeks off at Christmas. Teams would have to field reserve teams in any domestic competitions played in midweek (so reduce league sizes accordingly if this was necessary to play the full league programme on a weekend). But then to maintain interest might still be difficult. If you have a "winner takes all" league you probably have half the teams mired in mid-table for at least half the year & if you go for MLS style play-offs (more likely in my opinion if the calendar is big enough) then the best teams probably spend half the year jostling for which play-off position they will fill. Boring, boring...

The more I think about it the less appealing it seems which - since most of the people running football clubs aren't stupid - ought to mean the less likely it seems.

Out of interest though. If we did ever end up with some European League format "above" domestic leagues I'd envisage something like 3 leagues of 18 clubs (maybe 20) with promotion & relegation between the leagues & also some kind of buffer competition (Europa League style) between the lowest league & the domestic leagues.

Realistically (so sorry but every country gets at least one team is out) who do you think would get into the top 54 teams initially? And what criteria/form of random selection do you think would be used to decide this?

Author: badgerboy
Date: 12-10-2009, 13:04

NB Because the "big five" leagues have relative strength in depth & many clubs with a rich history I think they are (ought to be?) relatively satisfied with their domestic lot & although there might be future tweaking with the mid-week programme nothing much will change domestically.

But the idea of ideas like "the Atlantic League" whereby the best teams from relatively uncompetitive domestic leagues form their own - fairly regional - leagues seems a lot more likely to happen. I still think it will take a lot of doing (and co-ordinating with UEFA assuming these leagues still had to fit in somehow with qualification for the UEFA Club competitions)but it seems more likely to me than an overall European Super League.

Actually here's another interesting question for fans of these non top-five clubs. Usually whenever I hear about an Atlantic League (various countries but lets say Celtic, Rangers, Ajax, PSV, Feyenoord, Porto, Benfica, Sporting, Anderlecht, Club Brugge? and probably some Scandinavian teams - I probably forgot some other countries too) it's on the basis that a league like this (in terms of increased revenues + I guess more competitive games on a weekly basis) would help the teams compete better in the CL with the top European teams.

But would this league be appealing to fans in itself?

First - either as a replacement for the domestic league? Here I guess the individual leagues vary a lot. I would imagine for example that countries like Holland & Belgium might have a lot more internal rivalries that fans would miss than Portugal & Scotland if there were a split.

Second - and more interesting to me perhaps. How would such a league fare as a midweek alternative to the Champions League?

Author: Ricardo
Date: 12-10-2009, 21:53

Though I always thought of domestic leagues getting smaller and European leagues getting more time/more matches. For ALL teams, so the early eliminated teams would start a kind of B competition, I am not so sure about it anymore. The Europe Laeague is now a bit of the B competition and I wonder for who this is interesting. I still think it is, and maybe we could get rid of the top-5 teams that doesn't want to play there in the first place.
Maybe extending the groups till 6, meaning 4 extra MD could be the next step, but it would mean bringing back the domestic league to 16-18.

Author: exile
Date: 13-10-2009, 14:47

It's not only the clubs outside the "big 3" (and it IS a big 3 not a big 5 - the gap between the 3rd and 4th top leagues is very large) that might be interested in some sort of Euro league. There are also the middle class clubs in the big leagues who find it almost impossible to break in to the CL places (1 to 4). The likes of Aston Villa, Spurs, Lazio, and so on.

Of course this is what the Europa League is meant for - the clubs who don't quite make it to the CL. But the EL in itself is not a great incentive for the clubs I've just mentioned - though Sevilla and Porto have shown a good run in the UC/EL is good training for the CL - and so we often see clubs from leagues 4 to 12 competing in the final.

So, is there a future for the EL as a "buffer" or "qualifying league" for the CL? So that performance in the CL and EL is what qualifies you for next year's CL, not performance in the domestic league (which now becomes a qualifier for the EL).

For instance

- best 8 clubs in the CL go into next year's CL (which has 16 teams)
- next 8 play off with the top 8 in the EL (which might have, say, 4 leagues of 16 teams, top 2 to reach the playoffs)
- Next 8 in the EL get to stay in the EL next year
- the remaining 48 EL places are filled from the domestic leagues on a similar basis to now (some automatic, some via a play-off round)

I'm not advocating this, just speculating how it might work!

How would this affect the domestic leagues?

1. The top 3. Would this have any effect at all? Aren't they strong enough "brands" to sustain interest anyway? Given that a team might have 30-38 domestic games and 15-16 in the CL (assuming we either split the CL into 2 groups of 8, or have a league of 16 playing each other once only)

2. Leagues 4 to 5. More difficult - the Bundesliga might be OK, possibly France. In particular German attendances are very high despite lack of recent success in the CL.

3. "Middle class" leagues - Netherlands, Belgium, Russia, Ukraine, Portugal,Scotland etc.

These would presumably have their top 2 or 3 teams more or less permanently in the EL, striving for promotion to the CL. The main interest would be for the 3rd/4th place clubs trying for the 1 or 2 EL places available. Is this much different to the present setup?

4. "Lower middle class" leagues - Austria, Switzerland, Serbia, etc

I think there would be less of an issue here, given that even the top clubs wouldn't be guaranteed an EL place. OK, there would no longer be a realistic chance of reaching the CL itself (top 16) - but when was the last time a team from these nations did so! (probably Basel back in 2003...)

5. "Lower" leagues - the ones whose teams habitually bow out in QR1/QR2/QR3.

Of course occasionally in the current set up one of these teams makes it to the CL group stage eg BATE Barisov. Under the new arrangements this would be replaced by qualifying for the EL. Not much difference really as long as the financial rewards were adequate.

And how about the "new" CL itself? Is anyone going to watch a late-season match between say PSV and Galatasaray with nothing more at stake than a seeding position in the playoffs against the top EL teams?

The EL may have more of a problem if by mid season the majority of the teams are just jockeying for positions 17 to 48 with nothing particular at stake.

Maybe someone can come up with a better format! Almost certainly....

One thing is for sure, we are NEVER going back to the old champions-only knockout format. Unless this is introduced IN ADDITION to a league format as a "European Cup".

Author: Wak
Date: 14-10-2009, 08:59

I am surprised to see that many people seem to imagine for soon a spot in the next CL GS for the EL Title Holder. That's almost an ideological debate around the will to win - do we really need that to revamp the EL? - but that would be the last and most important step to definitely make the EL a second european division.

Exile, I am not sure that 4x16 is possible:
1 - I have no example in mind of such a formula in any sport
2 - Don't forget that in round-robin groups we need a little half of the table concerned with either promotion/relegation to ensure there's some interest for the most of the time. 2 out of 16 to progress is nothing, they could already be way ahead in just 6-7 weeks
3 - The fact that the clubs don't play against the best should be balanced by something else: CL spot, regional or international derbies still possible, and so on for any other good idea.

Axel has been talking about the American systems, babasol has imagined regional groupings between lesser leagues to counterbalance the Big5. For the few who don't know, the North-American system could solve the worries of many:
* teams are separated between little regional groups of 4-6, themselves part of coastal groups, part of the national league (NBA MLB)
* the more a team is close to you geographically, the more you play it: in NBA that's something like 4 for divisional, 3 for conference, and 2 for nationwide matches
This way in football we could still keep derbies with real chances on both sides. Ah, and if you add up a relegation or a "play-down" system, you can welcome more teams according to rule 2 above (a contrario).

Re: Predict: What will the European League look like?
Author: exilenm Date: 18-10-2009, 15:04	The US model is a possible answer but would be in place of the national leagues whilst my idea allows the national leagues to continue. Also I hope we never go down the "franchise" route. A place in the Euro league, however it's constituted, should be based on winning matches on the field of play.

Author: Cirdan
Date: 18-10-2009, 18:05

I think the next step will be returning to a second group stage, which will satisfy the desire of the big clubs to play each other more often. I guess it's a possibility that to save matchdays, they'll steal handballs idea of joining groups, where the matches of 2 teams that progressed from the first group stage count for the joint group in the second group stage.

But I don't know how much more will happen... I doubt the big clubs will want to give up their domestic leagues, at least as long as they are as successfull as they are, and with about 32 teams you can't fit bigger groups into the calender... A possibility would be a smaller CL or a completely new superleague with 2 groups of 8 (14 matchdays) and quarterfinals between the top 4 (19 mds, borderline, but possible, especially with a bit pressure on FIFA and an international date less). If the big clubs get their way, it would be accessed not via domestic performance, but via promotion/relegation from a secondary European tournament, the bottom 2 of the groups could do playoffs against that relegation. However I don't see how the big clubs could push a smaller tournament - let alone pro/rel - through against the opposition from smaller countries/leagues that wouldn't get to participate.

Author: Wak
Date: 18-10-2009, 21:51

I like your 8*2 formula for the Champions League. But what's obvious is that there cannot be any play-off at the end of season at the same moment as the end of the national championship: the latter would be endangered!

example : Barcelona was ready to abandon its 2nd place in 2008, in order to better concentrate for the semifinal against Manchester United. What could some be doing in the championship to keep their annual rent in that CL? -- Euros are talky you know!

I just can't argue best against the second group stage than by advicing you to look at what the groups looked like.

Sorry, but an Inter vs ManU will always be more interesting as knockout match than in a group stage in which both are huge favorites.
----

In the news this week is the Atlantic League... make a research if you didn't heard of it. Very discussed of course, but critics seem to point out the impossibility of the task.

What looks obvious is that
1) some clubs could be Champions League winners, or regular quarterfinalists, but can't, because their are not competitive enough, translated, they are not in either England or Spain or possibly Italy, Germany, or France which allows the clubs to have a third or a half of great fixtures, with exponential TV rights incomes.
And this is UNFAIR.
2) not only national leagues are too cherished to be abandonned, but any european competition which lacks coherence (EL = the good, CL = the best, but the Atlantic League = ???) would fail very early on.

Therefore, I'm sketching a plan that could start as early as in the years to come (inspired by the Atlantic League idea). The change would be to keep the CL as THE superleague, but then create a compensatory league at the end of the season for the middle leagues (6-30 or even lower if interested):
## some leagues would abandon about a third or a half of their matchdays, with alternative formats (like 6-months-seasons like in latin america, or regular season + playoffs like in MLS)
## the remaining time would be used for an international competition and, say, for those who didn't qualify, domestic playoffs to maintain in the national 1st Division... With the national cups still continuing until May to keep a possibility for national fixtures

--------------- July Aug. Sep. Oct. Nov. Dec. Jan. Feb. Mar. Apr. May
UEFA CL and EL  5    3    1    2    2    3    -    2    2    4    2   |END
Domestic league 0-3  4    4    4-5  3-5  {  depends  }|END
Domestic cup    -    {     depends        }   x    x    x    x    x   |END
Compensatory l. -    -    -    -    -    -    -    1-2  4-5  4    2-3 |END

And if this becomes more than compensation (= if it works), and some of the teams become regular CL winners, it would expand to France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and finally, the blessed plot.

What d'ya think?

Re: Predict: What will the European League look like?
Author: Cirdan Date: 18-10-2009, 23:25 Edited by: Cirdan at: 18-10-2009, 23:28	In principle, I think an Atlantic league would be a good idea. But looking at the problems of the Skandinavian Royal League, I'm not so sure it would work out as well as the participating clubs hope. And regarding the play-offs at the end of the season: The CL already affects the domestic leagues, any changes to it will do the same, unless we make it less important.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 19-10-2009, 16:02

"What looks obvious is that
1) some clubs could be Champions League winners, or regular quarterfinalists, but can't, because their are not competitive enough, translated, they are not in either England or Spain or possibly Italy, Germany, or France which allows the clubs to have a third or a half of great fixtures, with exponential TV rights incomes.
And this is UNFAIR."

I find the use of the word UNFAIR a bit hilarious. You might as well say: "If Inter Turku happened to be a Spanish team with massive support from their region and a huge stadium they'd have won more trophies & be famous around Europe. It's really UNFAIR that this isn't the case & we must do something to redress the problem" or "Accrington Stanley/Go Ahead Eagles/Stenhousemuir are UNFAIRly disadvantaged because they don't have the number of fans/big stadium/global appeal/spending power of Manchester United/Ajax/Celtic".

Re: Predict: What will the European League look like?
Author: badgerboy Date: 19-10-2009, 16:04	By the way no one answered this question yet: "Realistically (so sorry but every country gets at least one team is out) who do you think would get into the top 54 teams initially? And what criteria/form of random selection do you think would be used to decide this?"

Author: Wak
Date: 19-10-2009, 16:36

I like you ! I wasn't comparing Streymur and Man U, but those you mentionned at the end. Ajax COULD be European champions, they've done it in each of the 3 cups. Champions League in 1995. Now they couldn't because of Eredivisie.

It's a bit cynical to say that Ajax and Celtic are bound to be domestic giants but european figurants all the time. We perfectly know that in a bigger league and so on their revenues would rise and, well, they'd be competitive -- proof is the big number of winners from middle countries until the 90's, and the outrageous domination they achieved in their league afterwards just to maintain in the European elite. Apart from a bunch of repeated surprises in CL like the season which ended with Porto-Monaco - and inequality have widen since then - do you see any team out of the big 5 win?

Personally I don't see the point of 3 divisions. Maybe you got used too much with the 4-division system in Britain. The European League cannot look like a domestic league, because its year-long formula is not the best for business. Now the European League will be defined on profitability grounds. And we know that the double-round-robin system is not the most profitable, looking at more recent championship formulas, in America, or in other sports. Look at how difficult it was in Brazil to implement an English-division-like system. A whole year to get a champion: too long !

A European league which looks like a national league cannot happen any time soon until Europe becomes a nation itself! As I developped above, if you don't want to destroy the national leagues, you can't have a prom/rel system separated from the national leagues, that is, national rank = european competition and round, because some teams are ready to abandon the domestic league so much it is useless!
Criteria would strictly be on national league results.