Forum

xml	No replies possible in the archive

Do uefa still have limits on the number of non-eu
Author: cobwebcat Date: 09-09-2008, 18:17	players that can be fielded or was that dumped in favour of the homegrown rule?

Re: Do uefa still have limits on the number of non-eu
Author: badgerboy Date: 09-09-2008, 18:38 Edited by: badgerboy at: 09-09-2008, 18:41	I don't think UEFA ever had a limit on the number of non-EU players. Although some individual associations have one - or at least did. The home-grown rule has been around for some time & is now four club trained players + four association trained players from the 25 man squad.

Re: Do uefa still have limits on the number of non-eu
Author: mjwillan Date: 09-09-2008, 21:15	Liverpool's Sami Hyypia has become one of the first victims of this rule - Liverpool have too many non local players and Hyypia has been left out: http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N161232080909-1609.htm I wonder how long it'll be before a player sues UEFA under EU law?

Author: badgerboy
Date: 10-09-2008, 10:17

Why would they be able to sue UEFA?

It's not "discrimination on the basis of nationality". I noticed that Scott Sinclair wasn't in the Chelsea squad either - presumably because he still doesn't qualify as a "club-trained" player because he's been out on loan too much.

At this point the EU seem to be supporting the "home-grown player" option whilst totally ruling out the legality of 6+5 so hopefully this support would continue in the courts if it ever did go that far.

Author: blue_shark
Date: 10-09-2008, 20:05

any kind of discrimination is discrimination. i made my point clear on this issue when i talked about the 6+5 rule. then i said i don't understand the fuss since this rule is no different that the similar ones some associations have.

you all remember my example, so i'm not going to bore you with that. but where can you find a rule that sounds like this one?

and those of you who think sports are not mutant children of EU law, sleep on it.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 10-09-2008, 20:29

Sorry but someone still needs to explain to me how this is discrimation.

It's the same rule for every human being on the planet. Wherever you were born if Arsenal (for example) sign you at 16 or 17 then by the time you are 21 you're a "home grown" player.

Unless you're saying that UEFA can't even limit the number of players over the age of 21 in a squad to 25. In which case the EU needs a bloody good slapping. But since the EU have come out & said themselves that they are "broadly in favour" of this rule then I'll refrain from slapping them just yet!

Re: Do uefa still have limits on the number of non-eu
Author: bbi Date: 10-09-2008, 21:12 Edited by: bbi at: 10-09-2008, 21:13	Perfect rule actually. After this they will just limit the number of foreign players in the youth teams. They can do this because the youth teams are amateur teams. So we will have someting similar to the initial 6,5 rule.

Re: Do uefa still have limits on the number of non-eu
Author: mjwillan Date: 10-09-2008, 21:53	It's not "discrimination on the basis of nationality". Yes it is - if Hyypia was English he'd be in the squad - and that's against EU law

Re: Do uefa still have limits on the number of non-eu
Author: blue_shark Date: 10-09-2008, 23:44 Edited by: blue_shark at: 10-09-2008, 23:45	@mjwillan wrong. if he were english, but played in spain since he was 16 he still wouldn't fit in the 4/8 spots. @badgerboy imagine football clubs as normal businesses and football players as simple employees. is a company allowed to have only a definite number of foreign employees? or of employees not trained by that company?

Re: Do uefa still have limits on the number of non-eu
Author: Overgame Date: 11-09-2008, 00:33	In Belgium, there is a rule forcing companies to have a number of younth employees. That rule is legal for the EU. The one we're talking about is really similar

Re: Do uefa still have limits on the number of non-eu
Author: blue_shark Date: 11-09-2008, 07:47	yes but this law only exists in belgium as far as i know and that's why belgium football league is the only one who has a similar rule. see i agree with this. it is backed by a law. but to enforce such a rule in european competition i think it would be fair for all countries to have such laws and all leagues to have such a rule.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 11-09-2008, 16:53

mjwillan wrote:

""It's not "discrimination on the basis of nationality".

Yes it is - if Hyypia was English he'd be in the squad - and that's against EU law"

I'm surprised how many people still don't understand the meaning of "home-grown". It has absolutely nothing to do with being English or not. It has to do with being trained by a club (or a club within the same association) for at least three years before you turn 21.

Hence Cesc Fabregas will qualify as a club-trained player for Arsenal once he's old enough to need to go on their A list of 25 players & currently qualifies for the B list (player born on or after 1 January 1987 and has been eligible to play for the club concerned for any uninterrupted period of two years since his 15th birthday) while Aaron Ramsey (Welsh I know) has to take up one of the A list spots & might have been left out entirely if Arsenal didn't have such a young squad that even a fair few of their experienced players are B-listed.

Another prime example of this is at Chelsea where they get to put Miroslav Stoch (a Slovakian player they signed at 17) on their B list as he's now in his third year with the club but Scott Sinclair (English!) doesn't make the list because - although this is his 4th year with the club he's been out on loan too many times & hence has never managed the "uninterrupted period of two years".

Personally I think this issue of a loan interrupting a player's period of registration with their parent club is a bit of a flaw in UEFA's system - but that's another story.

bbi wrote:

"Perfect rule actually. After this they will just limit the number of foreign players in the youth teams. They can do this because the youth teams are amateur teams. So we will have someting similar to the initial 6,5 rule".

That for me would be nearly a perfect solution to the problem - although I'm not so sure about youth teams being "amateur". Certainly in England players can sign professional contracts from the date they turn 17 - which might be only one day or might be 365 days after their scholarship starts. Of course many are only kept on scholarships until they are 18 (or the end of the season in which they turn 18) and then either get a contract or are released.

In fact if you put reasonable quotas on youth & reserve teams by the time you got to the first team all 25 players could theoretically be "foreign" but such quotas would stop clubs signing up a dozen or more youngsters from around the globe at 16 or 17 & then discarding them & keeping only the best two or three. At the same time if the scouting systems of the clubs are good enough to find good players at a young age they still get them & these players are still treated as "equal" to their colleagues regrdless of where they were born so no "nationality" and "discrimation" issues.

I don't think I've looked at this particular area of UEFA regulations for the current season before today because there's a sentence I haven't seen before which suggests UEFA are "testing the water".

"Players aged 16 may be registered on List B if they have been registered with the participating club for the previous two years without interruption".

Still nothing to do with nationality (if you were French & moved to London at the age of 6 you might still meet this criteria) but essentially only players from your local area (at least in England where there are geographical limits on the signing of young players) or at least from your own country - would be able to meet this criteria.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 11-09-2008, 17:04

blue_shark wrote:

"@badgerboy

imagine football clubs as normal businesses and football players as simple employees.
is a company allowed to have only a definite number of foreign employees? or of employees not trained by that company?"

Maybe not but I think this is where "specificity of sport" has to come in somewhere.

Football is pretty unique compared to any business I know in that a club can choose to employ more than twice as many people as it actually needs with the primary purpose of denying it's "competitors" quality staff.

If it were treated as a "pure business" - which I don't think it can be - perhaps the monopolies commission might get involved? Should it be possible for a football club to buy 30 of the best players in the world & barely play 10 of them any more than it should be possible for a supermarket chain to buy up 30 prime sites & only build on 20 of those?

Author: blue_shark
Date: 11-09-2008, 18:01

@badgerboy

i agree that sports are a different kind of economical activity, being a pure social phenomenon when it first started. but just make it legal. i have no problem with the EU or any country for that matter coming up with some laws that would refer only to sports. it wouldn't be the first area to have special rules. agriculture does, weapon industry does. at this moment it isn't even a gray area, it is pitch dark.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 11-09-2008, 20:25

I do like the rule and also the 'loan' part of it, though there are some other flaws in it! It already happened, Chelsea/Arsenal/whatever rich English club: they bought players of 13, 14,15 from AZ, Feyenoord, PSV and Ajax. It all has happened already the last 1-2 years. All due to this rule.
Of course the rule says that it is only allowed to change clubs at this age when the kid has to move because their parent found a new job. And so the English club offers the father a nice job -> rule applied, kid in a new environment, and if it appears to be only a mediocre player, it has to fall back to a normal life again -> impossible, this is not how it is meant!

Author: badgerboy
Date: 11-09-2008, 20:55
Edited by: badgerboy
at: 11-09-2008, 20:56

Ricardo

Are there really that many players being bought under this rule? I agree that far too many youngsters are being bought at 16 or 17 but I didn't think there were that many moving at a younger age?

If there are then FIFA (& UEFA) should be ensuring that the rules that should be in place preventing such moves are enforced.

Then again no rule/law can ever deal with every eventuality. Lionel Messi moved to Barcelona at 13 or 14 using a similar loophole partly because Barca arranged for him to have an operation that he'd never have been able to get in Argentina with his old club. Would a strictly enforced rule that might have prevented Messi becoming the player he did really be a good idea?

I realise such a case is a big exception to the "norm" but it just makes the point that nothing is black & white.

Re: Do uefa still have limits on the number of non-eu
Author: Ricardo Date: 11-09-2008, 23:30	badgerboy, I know that all 4 these 4 (top)clubs have suffered such a 'sell' in the last 2 years. So apparently yes these figures are that high!

Author: mjwillan
Date: 12-09-2008, 22:15

badgerboy wrote:

Yes it is - if Hyypia was English he'd be in the squad - and that's against EU law"

I'm surprised how many people still don't understand the meaning of "home-grown". It has absolutely nothing to do with being English or not. It has to do with being trained by a club (or a club within the same association) for at least three years before you turn 21.

You are correct, however I think it is UEFA's way of getting around EU law. It also explains Rafa Benitez (failed) pursuit of Gareth Barry to replace Xabi Alonso. If this had happened, perhaps Hyypia would be in the squad.