Forum

xml	No replies possible in the archive

Author: moro
Date: 03-09-2008, 20:20

I'm surprised this topic was still sleeping.
So, France has +3p and Russia +2p in front of Romania (7-th) and too many points in front of Holland to consider this country in the race.
R1 in UC will be decisive - if Romania can bring 3 or 4 teams in GS, the battle will stay open.

Lucky Russia, in UCR1 they got weak opponents: from the 5 possible opponents, russian teams got the 5-th ranked twice and the 3rd once. Meanwhile the 5 romanian teams got 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5-th ranked once each.
Plus, Zenit got the gift "BATE" in their group - 3 or 4 points + the 3rd spot secured...
I will probably hope Steaua and CFR will be helped by some Gods to beat Lyon and Bordeaux and some french teams will be held in UCR1. Cause it's still possible to catch France - rather than Russia.

Re: 6th place race
Author: bbi Date: 03-09-2008, 20:39	considering the draw I am not very optimistic. Rusia chances of underperforming are limited while Romania chances of overperforming are the same. and expecting france to make a comeback this season I now think the first 9 position will remain the same

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 03-09-2008, 20:39 Edited by: honesty at: 03-09-2008, 20:55	I agree with u it`s easier to catch France or Germany then Russia. We are in a direct battle with France and Germany with our teams. We have to beat Lyon,Bordeaux,Wolfsbourg and Hamburg.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Ricardo Date: 03-09-2008, 20:40	Considering the Romanian fanbase yes, it is a wonder this topic was sleeping, but before there are some serious results made by ROmania and some bad results by France(elimination of St Etienne, Rennes, ...) and/or Russia this topic can be kept closed. SO at least another 2 MD's ...

Re: 6th place race
Author: Overgame Date: 03-09-2008, 20:46	Well, catching France is really hard. Even if they perform bad (let's take last year) and score 7 points, you're needing at least 10 points to do it. And about the other folk : yes, Romania will catch Germany. Easily. Only 8 points down.

Re: 6th place race
Author: moro Date: 03-09-2008, 20:51	Overgame, very kind as usual. Honesty, Germany is out of our sight this year.

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 03-09-2008, 20:52 Edited by: honesty at: 03-09-2008, 20:55	Yes and ? Still Russia is uncaceble this season. I think that Russia will overtake Germany. This is my opinion. This year easiest target is clearly France. But next year I think it will be Germany.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Overgame Date: 03-09-2008, 20:57	Ok. Russia will overtake Germany. Let's imagine a coefficient of 5 for Germany : Russia needs to score more than 11.250, their best score. Romania needs to score more than 13 points. Frankly, before every season, that troll comes and make stupid comment. There are 2 possibilities : 1) He has some mental troubles. 2) He's just trolling. Make your choice.

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 03-09-2008, 21:08	I see only a troll in here . ANd ure right that troll is u. I understand kaiser because he is interested in this fight for 6 th place. But u? U came here with idiotic and instigating posts to do what? I think that u make from this fight a motive to argue with some people. P.S. For the rest i was refering to next year when i said Germany.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Overgame Date: 03-09-2008, 21:13	Next year ? LOL. Let's see if Romania can score more than Germany this season before talking about next year. But, again, after 2 years of 'Romania will be 5th for sure' 'Next year battle for the 4th place or even the 3rd' 'Romania 6th without any doubt', you should know that wishes and reality are different.

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 03-09-2008, 21:18 Edited by: honesty at: 03-09-2008, 21:19	I think that no one predicted a 2.6 points for Romania and no one even little trols like u didn`t predicted that Romania will score under 6 points with all teams seeded. With 6 points we would be on 6th. This thing isn`t in my interest list this season. We have 7 teams in european cups with 2 teams in CL.

Author: Cirdan
Date: 03-09-2008, 21:22

Sorry, honesty, but as Overgame explained, you telling us that you think Russia will overtake Germany is hilarious, when that would pretty much need simultanously the best season in Russian history and the worst in German history. Especially after a rather favourable draw for Germany in UCR1 and also for Werder in the CL. It's either a sign that you have no idea what you are talking about, or you're trolling.

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 03-09-2008, 21:25	That we will see . Russia has only 4 teams!

Author: mulligan
Date: 03-09-2008, 21:36

For 5th spot Russia has a big chance at all to overpass France this year since number of French teams in European Cups is 7 whereas Russian one is 4.
Except Nancy, French teams in UEFA have tough draws and could all be eliminated. In CL Marseille will probably be last in their group, Bordeaux finishing 3rd and Lyon qualifying to 2nd round. Therefore with reamining only 3 teams France will probably perform just like last year.(6,8 points)
I dont credit Romania so much in terms of its teams and number of teams(7) I think they could get max 6 points this year. On the other hand I credit the German teams most Werder having the easiest CL group. I dont think Russian teams would reach the latest rounds but they can collect more points than France and Romania since they have less number of teams.
A critical group is CL group with Lyon, Bayern, Steaua, Fiorentina
I guess the 2009 ranking would be 4-Germany 5-Russia 6-France 7-who knows...

Author: Cirdan
Date: 03-09-2008, 21:39

Russia only had 4 teams the last 5 seasons, while Germany always had at least 7, and the only time Russia made more points than Germany was 03/04, which will drop out of the rankings this year. And they don't just have to make 1 or 2 more points than Germany - they have to make 7 more points. Suggesting that this is likely in any way is really just ridiculous. But well, why feed the troll? I'll quit here now.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Zhund0r Date: 03-09-2008, 21:51	I think this discussion is senseless to this very beginning of the season. Lets wait till groupstage @ UC. Then we can make better predictions. Probably the most romanian teams will be out and than the discussion is over anyway.

Author: moro
Date: 03-09-2008, 22:55
Edited by: moro
at: 03-09-2008, 22:56

Here we are, a smart guy came in and told us the discussion it's senseless.
Browsing this forum instead of reading a book is senseless, but since we're doing it, everything has sense. I dont see any difference between "CLGS predictions" and this topic or another.

Back to work, Russia took a huge benefit last year from an incredibly easy draw in UCR1 and this year they also have easy teams. But still, Kobenhavn could get Moscow out, and imagine Spartak in bad shape in Czech Rep. I dont say it's gonna happen, but...However, such a lucky draw again for russians ... meanwhile Rapid Bucarest got second time in a row a german team while seeded

Steaua got Fiorentina instead of Anorthosis/Aalborg/Bate.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 04-09-2008, 11:28

At this moment I think it's very reasonable to discuss the possibility of Russia passing France.

Russia play with three less teams & three of the Russian teams - assuming Spartak only had a glitch and/or met a very strong opponent in CLQR3 - might get decent points.

Russia have shown regularly in the past that they are capable of scoring a coefficient of 10.000 with 4 teams. Last year they even got 11.250. If they repeat that (10.000) this year they end up on 47.875. France would need more than 8.707 to pass them & last year got only 6.928.

Given that France scored at least 10.000 in each of the previous four seasons while Russia's score dropped considerably in two of those four years you'd still have France as favourites at this stage though.

It's also reasonable to discuss the possibility of Romania catching Russia just because the current points difference isn't that big should Rapid, Dinamo +1 make the UEFA Cup groups & a couple of the Russian teams crash out and/or fail to perform once they reach the groups.

But Romania catching France from 3.259 points down with the same number of teams? Romania would need to score 22 more points than France. France regularly score a coefficient of at least 10.000 but lets imagine for a minute they repeat last year's flop (6.928). Romania would still need to score a coefficient better than 9.830 for the year. That's 69 points - 59.5 more points than they have now - to pass them. That's 15.5 more points than they got from this stage on in the UEFA Cup in 2005-06 when their best three teams were in that competition.

Now I understand that some Romanian fans are very enthusiastic about the ability of their teams. But that score was only bettered twice in the last 10 years by any country playing with 6 or more teams.

The Dutch did it in 2001-02 (when Feyenoord won the UEFA Cup) and in 2004-05 (when PSV were in the CL semi-finals & AZ in the UEFA Cup semi-finals). Greece played with six teams in eight out of the last nine seasons & achieved their best coefficient - 7.500 - last year. Portugal are used to playing regularly with six teams in Europe (seven sometimes) & with their best teams in the CL. Their best coefficient with so many teams is 8.166.

So - when people bother to look at the real numbers - perhaps they can see why it seems a bit arrogant for Romanians to be talking about achieving such results in their first year with so many teams? If it happens (nothing in football is "impossible") great - you can be very proud of your teams. But wait until there's at least some evidence on the pitch to back it up. Or the cynical reader might think you have to get all the hot air out now - before on pitch events well & truly burst the bubble for another year.

Author: moro
Date: 04-09-2008, 12:04
Edited by: moro
at: 04-09-2008, 12:07

Not everything's decided on the field.
It's the last time I'm saying it, Russia's luck at the draw was incredible last and this year.
French teams arent that good - why am I the only one to see them as not very serious opponents in UC? Bordeaux's allways dissapointing in CL, Rennes in Uefa, Lyon lost some light, OM has a bad group and can jump from the top of the internal ranking to the bottom in weeks (very irregular). Only PSG seems really stronger now. Too bad Nancy got Motherwell, but who knows?

Of course, you'll say: and why am I so optimistic about my teams - well, I'm not, but the only reason for this topic to exist is Romania to put 3-4 teams in UCGS. With 2 teams, I'm

unless if Banik Ostrava or Slaven can make something nice for us.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Malko Date: 04-09-2008, 13:02	As a supporter of french teams, I see in Russia an opponent very much dangerous than in Romania. But anyways, the aim of the French league has to be top 3 in 5 or 10 years...... but this depends on evolution in italian club-football too......

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 04-09-2008, 13:25 Edited by: Lusankya at: 04-09-2008, 13:26	And of course it depends on the German league too, because France needs to overtake both. But I can't see an indication why this should happen. Primary object for France is too secure their 5th spot now. I am pretty sure they can and will do it, but just wait and see.

Author: Kaiser
Date: 04-09-2008, 16:56

Russia will not overtake Germany nor will we even chase any team ranked 5th in the UEFA ranking. Next season the situation is even worse: too much teams and that teams will be Rubin, Amkar, Dinamo for sure...

My predictions for this season are:

Zenit will be eliminated in 1/8 of UEFA Cup,
Spartak will be eliminated in 1/16 of UEFA Cup,
CSKA will be eliminated in 1/8 of UEFA Cup,
Moskva will be eliminate in Round 1 of UEFA Cup.

It's maximum.

In Romania the situation isn't better - they have difficult draws. CFR and Steaua have reserved 4th place in CL group, in UEFA Cup Romanians won't go further either. Although Holland won't overtake Romania for sure, they'll come too close despite losing a huge coefficient of 5 years ago. My predictions for future:

Russia - fall (8th-15th)
Romania - huge fall (12th-18th)
Netherlands - rising (6th-7th)
Portugal - rising (6th-7th)

Scotland and Turkey also have good chances to grab 8th-9th spots having such clubs as Celtic, Rangers and Fenerbahce.

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 04-09-2008, 18:14
Edited by: Lyonnais
at: 04-09-2008, 18:15

badgerboy gave me the idea to look at the last 10 year country coefficient. Out of those 10 numbers - per country -, I calculated the quartiles (rather than the min or the max which are less interesting from a prediction perspective)

first quartile = reflects the annual coefficient for a bad performance
median = average performance
third quartile - good performance

Results were the following (sorry for format)

11.3 - 14.3 - 15.3 England
14.0 - 15.2 - 16.4 Spain
10.7 - 12.0 - 13.6 Italy
09.2 - 10.5 - 11.1 Germany
08.1 - 09.8 - 10.7 France
03.9 - 06.3 - 09.3 Russia
02.5 - 03.5 - 05.3 Romania
05.6 - 06.2 - 08.1 Netherlands
05.9 - 08.0 - 09.1 Portugal
04.4 - 05.1 - 06.3 Ukraine

Then I calculated a range of predictable coefficient:
coefficient at the beginning of the season + 1st quartile = low range
coefficient at the beginning of the season + 3rd quartile = high range

The expeting range would be the folowing:

75.8 - 79.8 England
74.9 - 77.3 Spain
62.2 - 65.2 Italy
53.2 - 55.1 Germany
47.8 - 50.4 France
41.8 - 47.1 Russia
38.8 - 41.6 Romania
38.4 - 40.9 Netherlands
35.6 - 38.7 Portugal
29.6 - 31.5 Ukraine

My analysis is the following

- England will keep on fighting with Spain for the 1st place (advantage for England but nothing is granted yet)
- Italy will keep their 3rd place
- Germany will keep their 4th place (or take it depending if you compare to ranking at the end of last season or at the beginning of this season)
- France should keep their 5th place but are under pressure of Russia (47.8 in case of a bad performance for France vs. 47.1 in case of a good performance for Russia). In case of a very bad perf from France and/or a very good perf from Russia, Russia would take the 5th place
- Russia at worst will keep their 6th place
- Romania, the Netherlands and to some extent Portugal will fight for the 7th / 8th and 9th places.
- Ukraine are too far to expect to jump to the 9th place.

This analysis looks like a reasonable one based on past performances; Obviously if a country had a record coefficient this season (in highs or in low), it could affect the expected ranking.

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 04-09-2008, 18:27
Edited by: Lyonnais
at: 04-09-2008, 18:30

another pure statistical analysis is to use the last 10 years coefficient to predict the trend for 2009 using the least square method.

Projected country coefficient for 2009

17.5 England
15.9 Spain
12.6 Italy
11.2 Germany
09.9 France
10.2 Russia
09.9 Romania
08.1 Netherlands
09.2 Portugal
05.8 Ukraine

This projected country coefficient for 2009 + 2005-08 coefficient at the beginning of the season:

82.0 England
76.9 Spain
64.1 Italy
-----------
55.2 Germany
49.6 France
48.1 Russia
-----------
46.2 Romania
40.9 Netherlands
38.8 Portugal
31.0 Ukraine

This method takes into account the trend in recent years (e.g. the rise of Romanian and Russian footballs and the new domination of English football).
As a result, the outcome - although consistent with the other one - is much more favorable to Romania who don't look threatened by the Netherlands and Portugal for the 7th place anymore.
Same outcome for England who would become a strong leader.

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 04-09-2008, 18:39

The same analysis but using the last 5 years data only (2004-08).

It overweights recent performances but looks like a bit aggressive to me as it projects that quite a few countries break their 1999-08 records.

Projected coefficient for the season

19.4 - England (best 1999-08 coefficient: 17.9)
16.8 - Spain
12.3 - Italy
14.7 - Germany (best 1999-08 coefficient: 13.5)
06.2 - France (lowest 1999-08 coefficient: 6.9)
11.0 - Russia (best 1999-08 coefficient: 11.3)
08.8 - Romania
06.3 - Netherlands
06.6 - Portugal
05.5 - Ukraine

As a result, projected 2005-09 country coefficient

83.9 - England
77.7 - Spain
63.8 - Italy
-----
58.7 - Germany
48.8 - Russia
45.9 - France
-----
45.1 - Romania
39.1 - Netherlands
36.2 - Portugal
30.8 - Ukraine

In this simulation, Russia take the 5th place at the expense of France. Romania just behind. It's not that unlikely (France did 2 bad years in a row in 2002-03, it thus could happen again in 2008-09), but as stated above, it's an aggressive scenario.

Re: 6th place race
Author: umnik Date: 04-09-2008, 22:39	Germany-4 Russia -5 France -6 Romania -7 Holland-8 Russian's 6 place-no problem with 4 teams.

Author: delustef
Date: 05-09-2008, 07:50

Thank you Lyonnais, you made a good analysis!

Regarding Romanian teams it will be a great European season if Steaua will take the third place in CL and go far in the UEFA Cup (1/4 finals), Dinamo and Rapid will be in the first three in GS and another one (most likely Vaslui) will survive to the GS. Urziceni can also make a big surprise.

The gap to France will be much lower at the end of the season, but France will undoubtly remain in the 6th spot.

Russia will be in the 5th spot.

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 05-09-2008, 14:58 Edited by: honesty at: 05-09-2008, 14:59	Russia - 4 Germany - 5 Romania - 6 France - 7 Then the rest, with no chanses! Hope that in the future Russia will do it until top 3 that was my prediction 2 years ago.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 05-09-2008, 15:20	"Russia - 4 Germany - 5 Romania - 6 France - 7" @Honesty, you mean at the end of this or next season?

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 05-09-2008, 18:02 Edited by: honesty at: 05-09-2008, 18:03	both

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 05-09-2008, 20:13	You think Russia will get at least 6.5 more points than Germany? Is there any hint why this should happen?

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 05-09-2008, 22:48	All Russian teams will be in group stage. Germany will play with maximum 6/8 teams in group stage. Germany has 8 teams until now they had 7. The value of teams ranked 4-8 in Germany is week - medium.

Re: 6th place race
Author: bcpcd Date: 06-09-2008, 06:40	We, romanians, must to be very happy to secure, this and next season the 7th spot. Otherway, talking or writing too much before R1 matches, we'll thinking can reach spot 1. Romania, normally, and only in my opinion of course, is a 9-10 spot country.

Author: Lusankya
Date: 06-09-2008, 11:05
Edited by: Lusankya
at: 06-09-2008, 11:06

All Russian teams will be in group stage.
You mean like Spartak will be in the CL?

Germany will play with maximum 6/8 teams in group stage.
Maximum? You surely just miswrote. The word you meant is minimum. The 4 seeded teams have very good chances to progress and even our 2 unseeded teams are in a 50-50 situation.

Germany has 8 teams until now they had 7.
Yeah and the 8th team (Berlin) has a very good draw so will most likely progress to UC group stage. They already have 3.5 points and it's reasonable to assume they get another 3-4 points in round 1.
That would be 6.5-7.5 + 4 sure games in the group stage. So it's unlikely that they drag us down. If Russia loses 1 team (e.g. unseeded FK Moscow) Germany can afford to lose 2 teams. So it's not that bad to have more teams.

The value of teams ranked 4-8 in Germany is week - medium.
Well the value of our 7th team was enough to eliminate the 5th team of Russia without using key players. And somehow our weak-medium teams managed to earn more points than the strong russian teams the last 4 seasons. :rolleyes:

It's not that I think Russia will get less points than Germany, but 6.5 more? That's just wishful thinking.

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 06-09-2008, 13:54	This was my prediction. I don`t want to ofend u or your country.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 06-09-2008, 14:20	Then you shouldn't use the future tense forms.

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 06-09-2008, 14:28	i undestand ,sorry!

Author: Cirdan
Date: 06-09-2008, 19:32

Well... I didn't want to, but another post from me anyway:

Germany had 8 teams in 05/06. Mainz 05 was our fair play team then, bottom of the table in Germany and unseeded, they were drawn against later champion Sevilla and lost in R1. Leverkusen also lost in a huge surprise against CSKA Sofia both home and away, so we had 6/8 teams in group stage. And we still made 10.4 points, Russia "only" 10.

This year, we have 2 unseeded teams, but both are stronger than Mainz was (and so is fair play team Hertha). Wether Rapid Bucharest and/or Udinese are weaker than Sevilla might be debatable, but I think so.

Predicting Russia to make more points this season than Germany shows much faith in the Russians and little in the Germans, but it's an opinion I can respect, given that the seeding doesn't favour the Germans too much. Predicting Russia to make at least 6 or 7 points more and overtake Germany in the country ranking is a bad joke.

Author: Krys
Date: 06-09-2008, 21:01

I think comparing Russia to Germany is only wasting time. That will never happen..
Russia vs France is a little bit more serious, senseless though (because of difference between 5 and 6)
About Romania - actually I don't know their clubs except Top-3
If Famagusta was not a disaster but their actual level, I think 6th place is a dream for them. If not it can be some kind of race then.. But I have no faith in it.
5.France 6.Russia 7-8. Romania
As a Russian I think we will keep 6 easily and do not need 5 at all.
It may happen with 15-20% chance but not so important.
We should better concentrate on individiual rating of clubs participants.

Author: moro
Date: 06-09-2008, 22:54

To end it with Famagusta once for ever: losing 1-3 at home doesnt means the hosts were under pressure, that visitors had 30 corners, etc. You can lose a match 0-4 and yet clearly dominated, you can win it 3-0 with luck or experience.
Famagusta is a very good team and their result against a very tough Tottenham should be seen as an accident - all other results were exceptionals against CFR Cluj, Rapid Wien, Olympiakos.
This doesnt mean Cyprus football is better than romanian or that CFR Cluj is a garbage. They just lost one of the two matches in Uefa, while the year before CFR with a weaker team cruised in Intertoto.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Overgame Date: 07-09-2008, 12:52	Nod moro, and what will you say about Otelul last year ? And about every results in a recent past, except the 2 years when you actually won a few games ?

Re: 6th place race
Author: moro Date: 07-09-2008, 16:19	What? I'm not suggesting we're over Spain, just that our football increases in value year after year. Otelul, CFR - nothing to say at this moment, just like you, they only lost one game in two and we'll talk with more objectivity in 2012 (5 year period like Uefa ranking). Let's pick a random team: ooops, Anderlecht. They're the surest loser in CL ever. Solid info, after 5 year study.

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 08-09-2008, 16:38	@moro Overgame has made from degrading Romania a way of life. U can't speak with people like this. Maximum u can do is ignoring him.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Malko Date: 09-09-2008, 14:45	Russia will be the most serious opponent to Germany and France for the places 4-5-6. Thats a fact. Romania is already decreasing. Maybe Russi can come in front of France for a year or two, but I am sure, france will overcome Germany in some years...and where Russia will they be then????? I think in 4 years: 1) England or Spain 3) Italy or France 5) germany or Russia

Author: Kaiser
Date: 09-09-2008, 17:26

I doubt France will be so 'quick' in near future. They have only Lyon, - other clubs are incompetent (i.e. they can't really get to quarters of CL, for example, etc). Comparing to Russia:

Lyon > Zenit
Bordeaux = Spartak
Marseille = CSKA

Althought Russian teams are a bit weaker, Russia has more teams in CL and less in CL, but since UC is equal to CL, then Russia will probably gain more points. I think Russia is able to overtake France.

But it depends...

Author: Malko
Date: 09-09-2008, 18:34

"Russia has more teams in CL and less in CL" ????

Russia can overtake France, ...this year...but i do not think for a long time.
Russia can overtake also germany...if you say France has only Lyon, so Germany has only Bayern....and nobody really knows what they are worth. we'll see, they play in the same group than Lyon and i think lyon superior.
So i think Marseille and Bordeaux at least as strong as Bremen, stronger than Schalke.....
Sure, for one or two years, the coeficients whixh will be taken out of the ranking will make that France will stay behind germany, but i do not think this will last for a long time...

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 09-09-2008, 18:38	I don't think that it will be easy for Russia to overtake France, if they can do it at all. But we all know that Malko overrates french teams. If you ask 1000 football fans in Europe, if there are signs, that France could overtake Germany you get 999 no and 1 yes. And only one yes, if Malko is one of the interviewees. It doesn't mean France won't do it, but there's no reason to assume it.

Re: 6th place race
Author: bbi Date: 09-09-2008, 21:25	France seems to be on the down side, not challenging Italy. If they can't hold up 5 th place this year I really don't see how they will challenge Italy in 4 years.

Author: cinebelul
Date: 09-09-2008, 22:56
Edited by: cinebelul
at: 09-09-2008, 22:59

I don't think this discussion makes sense for this season, it's much more realistic a battle Rus vs Fra for the 5th than any pretentions of Rom or Ned to the 6th.
Rom is involved only next season in the battle for the 6th and this depends also very much from the results of this season. It's sure Rom will succeed in catching Rus for this season only in a very lucky situation: Rus will lose 1 team while Rom will lose only 1 in UCR1, then Rus will have not so good results in GS, go only with Zenit and maximum 1 team from UC in the spring and lose them early there, Rom go with minimum 4 teams in spring and 1 reach QF at last ...but let's wait for the first matches and surely UCR1 to have a better view.

For the next season's 5th/6th spot is then every situation interesting, will Romania succeed this season in keeping contact with Rus&Fra for the next season's ranking??

5 Rom 32.123
6 Fra 29.454
7 Rus 29.125

Author: Malko
Date: 10-09-2008, 15:44
Edited by: Malko
at: 10-09-2008, 15:45

What does thou make think Germany so strong?
The Top-teams of Germany losing by 4 goals difference or more vs teams from Russia, Spain, even...France in Championsleague.
Maybe germany was one of the best in the late 80s, early 90s?
Or the fact they have 40 000 plus average attendance? then China should be the best in the world.........
France suffered the last yer of "new teams every year", lille, rennes.....but now that Marseille and Bordeaux are reestablishing themselves in the top-teams in France and PSG won't last, everything seems to indicate that the bayerns, schalkes, Stittgarts or Bremens won't be able to stay above for a long time.
Just watch the games every weekend, you'll see.....

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 10-09-2008, 16:56	Yes Malko, you're right Malko.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Tirion Date: 10-09-2008, 17:57 Edited by: Tirion at: 10-09-2008, 18:42	Oh come on Malko, we already had this discusion. France will probably stay behind Germany untill they lose that terrible 6.9 result from last season.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Overgame Date: 10-09-2008, 21:03	How many french team in CL 1/4 last year ? How many french team in UC 1/2 last year ? If i have the choice between losing 4-0 in 1/2 or by away goals in 1/8, well my choice is done without any doubt. Btw, who eliminated Bordeaux ? Anderlecht. Who eliminated Anderlecht ? Bayern, 0-5 away.

Author: OMfan
Date: 10-09-2008, 23:36

i think that france can't overtake germany. I think too that the gap batween the two countries will grow. The first reason is that germany have big stadium and that means supporters and money.About Russia they are really dangerous for us. Good teams and good draw. For us the draw especially in CL is not very good.But i don't think that having 7 teams in european cups is a problem for us because the 4 teams qualified in UC are close to each other.
And Marseilles or bordeaux could be reversed in uefa.
So it's possible for France to be 6th at the end of the year. But... i'm optimistic for example OM is in a difficult group in CL but why not we've got a strong attack...(weak defense too).
But i'can't imagine one second that france could be 7th this year.
We'll see in CL the difference between Cluj and bordeaux or Lyon and steaua...i think there is one...but let's wait the playground...

Re: 6th place race
Author: OMfan Date: 10-09-2008, 23:42	@overgame yes anderlecht beat bordeaux... that's an argument for France. Laurent Blanc (bordeaux coach) said he didn't care of uefa UC, he prefers keep his team competitive for the championship. That's a real problem in France: we never win this cup but several clubs don't care. This year i can tell you that teams like paris or st etienne will play it seriously.

Author: Overgame
Date: 11-09-2008, 00:31

OMfan : that's what 90% of the the teams say after a defeat in UC : "we don't care about that cup and blablabla".
Frankly, that's a poor excuse. Before that game, Bordeaux had won their 4 games. If you don't care about the Cup, you're trying to be out faster, not after 6 games in february.

And when you can play against a team like Bayern and get your stadium full, you don't give that chance to a poor team like Anderlecht.

Again, "we don't care about the Cup" is a poor excuse. An excuse used after a defeat.

Re: 6th place race
Author: bbi Date: 11-09-2008, 01:02	"Not participating to the Champions League this year makes me angry," Ricky Kak� told Sky Sport24, "but at least we will have the chance to focus entirely on the league. This time the Scudetto is really our objective." See no interest in Uefa Cup, but they will win some games just because of the value of the team.

Author: Malko
Date: 11-09-2008, 15:26

Overgame, who is poor, who is rich?
Marseille was closer to eliminate St petersburg than Bayern was last year. So it doesn't matter if it's in 1/2 final or final.....concerning the strongness of the teams.

Playing Bayern? i do not think in Bordeaux more peaople would like to see a Bordeaux-Bayern than a Bordeaux- Nantes for example.
If it were Arsenal, manchester or Chelsea, that would be different. german football doesn't has the quote in France like the Premiere league (the free-TV is full of premiere League, you don't see a single image from bundesliga). Bayern is no more that magnet it was 10 years ago.

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 11-09-2008, 19:47	I remeber 2 years ago Overgame said that clubs from top 6 don`t care about UC. That's why Romanian teams beated German and Spain teams. Now same trol says that this is a poor excuse. This shows what type of personality defines this strange guy.

Author: Overgame
Date: 11-09-2008, 22:10
Edited by: Overgame
at: 11-09-2008, 22:15

Top6 ? No. I said top3. But +you can't probably see a difference between THREE end SIX.

And, yes they don't care about that cup. Well, for most of them. Teams from Spain do care about that cup, for the teams from Italy, i'd say that's about 1/2 and for England we could say 1 for 3.

But, then, teams from lower countries are using that argument after a defeat.

@Malko : your last post shows how strong is your deny for Germany. EVERYONE in that Cup wanted to play Bayern. And Masreille was closer ? Even Standard was closer, you moron. Again, you're trying to explain why french teams are almost never in the last stages by :

1) we don't care
2) we always get bad draws
3) fond yourself, i'm tired to hear how Germany is weak and how France is strong when their best team loses 0-3 at home vs Rangers. But you tend to "forget" that game.

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 12-09-2008, 08:36

I certainly don't want to interfere in this interesting discussion but I just want to add a precision

i'm tired to hear how Germany is weak and how France is strong when their best team loses 0-3 at home vs Rangers.

First, you certainly remember that Lyon had their revenge at Ibrox Park some few weeks later.
Second, this remark is not that kind nor fair for Rangers who reached the UEFA Cup final. By the way, to reach the UC final, they had to play in the Champions League the German champions Stuttgart then had to defeat teams like Werder Bremen in the KO games.

I certainly don't want to minimize the performances of the German clubs in the European Cups. I believe that it's a good league, having the potential to come back to the highest level in Europe, and obviously a team like Bayern belongs to the very close club of the European giants always named among the top favourites of European competitions - and I have huge respect for Werder as well, a team that is frequently among my own favourites in the European competitions
I furthermore get very much bored by these comparisons between France and Germany. If Germany is above France in the rankings, this is simply because German teams have better results than the French one. Nothing to complain or argue about this.
But the example of Rangers looked like pretty funny to me.

Author: Lusankya
Date: 12-09-2008, 09:35
Edited by: Lusankya
at: 12-09-2008, 09:37

Reactions like the one from Overgame are provoked by Malko.
If I say Germany might be in front of France for at least a few years it's based on facts. For example, that Germany is leading with nearly 5 points! Or that Germany will lose fewer points than France the next 4 years.

If I think, that german teams will do better than or at least as good as french team this season, it's a reasonable assumption, because german teams just proved they could do so the last season.
But Malko is just completely ignoring all this and just say french teams are far superior to german teams and they will "OF COURSE" overtake Germany in the next years. This is just stupid provokation and makes me and apparently other members angry. And when you're angry, you just don't want to answer the way you would normally do.

So in future I will just ignore him and let the german and french teams do the talking.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 12-09-2008, 09:54

"So in future I will just ignore him and let the german and french teams do the talking. "
That's what I have been doing already for a year. I mean not ingnoring him, but ignoring this discussion. That's the fairest. It's a useless discussion. it's about 'I am the best' not about arguments and no opinion will be changed about the topic. Only opinions about the writers will change (if they can get any worse).

I/we can ask the writers to state arguments only of how a country or a team played, last year, last 5 year, last 25 year, in CL or UC, in specific phases, etc. But I'm afraid it won't help. I don't see it as coefficient related anymore, so actualy it should be held on the other forum.

Going back to the topic: race for 6th. We are still only at the beginning of the European season. Everything is still possible, and I think we can give a better prediction if we know who is eliminated in UC-R1. Until then I think compared to the current ranking that Russia might rise a bit giving France opposition for the 5th spot.

Author: mulligan
Date: 12-09-2008, 12:24

Always discussing Germany vs France

IMO Lyon=Bayern
Bordeaux=Bremen
Marseille=Schalke
Marseille and Schalke being not so good enough. Therefore, there is not much difference btw France and Germany. However what makes Germany ahead of France in rankings is that they have more number of teams belonging to Marseille-Schalke category i.e Stuttgart, Leverkusen etc who usually play in Europe. My guess about the rankings is 4-Germany
5-Russia
6-France this year.

Re: 6th place race
Author: moro Date: 12-09-2008, 12:54 Edited by: moro at: 12-09-2008, 12:55	I was once kicked off from a topic because "out of topic post". So guys please move the dust on another topic called "4-th or 5-th spot fight". Here we talk about 6-th position - the battle can only involve 4 countries: France, Russia, Romania and Holland (Holland just because I'm in good mood today).

Re: 6th place race
Author: Malko Date: 12-09-2008, 16:27	moro, if you speak about 6the place, you have to speak about 5th (actual) and forth (which was fifths some weeks ago).....this is not off topic. about strenght France vs germany, this is what makes it all so relative : "Germany will lose fewer points than France the next 4 years." This means too . THE LAST 4 YEARS FRENCH CLUBS WERE BETTER THAN GERMAN !!!!

Author: Lusankya
Date: 12-09-2008, 18:44

Geez, I am answering again... ;(
I made a mistake it's only 3 years not 4. Also it's only a small margin, less than 1 point each year. And it doesn't matter what french teams were in the past. The most recent season german teams were much better than french teams, that is the most important piece of information.

And now stay on topic, again! Don't try to throw smoke-bombs, Malko!
This thread isn't about Germany or a imaginary fight between french and german teams.

Author: Overgame
Date: 12-09-2008, 19:03

Congratulations Malko, you finally said something based on common sense.
And, on the other hand, the difference of those wonderful 4 years is lower than the difference made last year.

Lyonnais : that was just a game, nothing more, nothing less. Malko is really good to only keep one or 2 games to give his conclusions and "forget" everything else. I just gave him a game he "forgot".

But we agree : if Germany is higher in the ranking, that's just because german teams got better results than France. Nothing to argue about it. And after this season, both countries would have played with the same number of teams in the last 5 years.

Oh, and last thing : i should check the results myself, but when a french team (ecepting Lyon) plays against another team, the probability of qualification is close of 50/100, no matter the opponent. That's hard for me to explain it in english :p

Author: OMfan
Date: 13-09-2008, 16:18

@overgame it's not a poor excuse bur reality. When bordeaux meet Anderlecht they try to win the title in France or at least a CL spot. The number of player in bordeaux wasn't very important and Laurent blanc was afraid of loosing uefa cup and championnship so he choose the second one...
The fact is that bayern was the next opponent. So in France, journalist said that this attitude was a shame and that passing 4 round to do that is stupid.
Finally bordeaux is qualified for CLGS...if they had passed this round, we don'd know what happened.

Re: 6th place race
Author: OMfan Date: 13-09-2008, 16:23	@Malko Bayern is a wonderfull team for me: Ribery, luca tony, Klose etc... and in Marseilles we all want to beat zenith to play them... but we loose even if we were very close...grrrr Arshavine.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Overgame Date: 14-09-2008, 01:32	"Finally bordeaux is qualified for CLGS...if they had passed this round, we don'd know what happened." Poor excuse. They could have been champions, who knows ?

Re: 6th place race
Author: folktronica Date: 14-09-2008, 02:25	Don`t forget 3.Zenit is going to win 2-3 eurocups in 5 years Nowdays 1-2 in 4 years https://kassiesa.net/uefa//forum/view.php?archive=2008.Q1&topic=20080314050252.xml

Author: Malko
Date: 14-09-2008, 19:05

OMfan...Ribery, cause he played in marseille...metz too. But is his going to bayern from Marseille really a step up-the-latter? i doubt. Marseille for me is actually as strong as bayern. Well, we'll see in Championsleague this year. You french people, like your media, first like was is abroad before liking waht is in France. You have 4-5 teams which could compete for the title in Bundesliga, but do not want to have them !!!!
-----
but back to topic : 5th,6th place-race DOES include Germany in the next 4 years !!!!!

Author: Zhund0r
Date: 14-09-2008, 19:37

Malko talking shit as always

Comparing Bayern with Marseille is just ridiculous. I don't even know a single good player of Marseille except of Ben Arfa. I doubt that such a young player really can make Marseille to a better team than Bayern. He is the only french nationalteam player, if I am right. Bayern has 5 german nationalteam players + the BEST french nationalteam player. Besides, much more nationalteam players from Brazil, Argentina or Italy. If you missed it - that are the most successful countries in football and now you want to compare thist troup of superstars with some players from Africa + Ben Arfa?
Oh my god Malko, I don't know what to say anymore.. You can't find ONE reason why Marseille, Bordeaux or even Lyon is better than Bayern, but you're talking without any end. You know that by yourself and if not - you are a real patriot or just a naiv idiot. If you don't believe any of us in this forum just make a poll and I bet every single fan from France won't give you right in any of your arguments.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 14-09-2008, 20:59	But Zhund0r, did you forget that France has 4-5 Teams which could compete for the title in Bundesliga!!!!!1 Damn, is Malko just Honesty in a French disguise? Long lost twin brothers? Both are equally impudent and blind.

Author: OMfan
Date: 14-09-2008, 22:22

@Zhundor

There's a lot of team in Europe which i don't know the players. Last year i learn to know Zenith players...
In Marseilles there's some very good players, I hope you're going to know them. Especially in attack: Baky Kone, Mamadou Niang:they are African internationals and very good. Karim Ziani etc...
And you make mistake there's other french internationals Mandanda the goalkeeper and Valbuena for example.
About Bayern, in France it probably be the Champion, i agree.
I'm not sure Lyon is the best french team this year, Marseilles is stroner than last season. We 'll have tha answer in may.

Author: Malko
Date: 15-09-2008, 20:12

Zundhor, what you know is not necessarly waht IS ., icould also...I just do know 2 single good players of Bayern, Ribery and Toni.If you do not Niang for example, it neither his nor my fault....

One Frrench national player, 5 national german players. Sorry, it is easyer to get in German national team than in French....and ibery is definately NOT the best French National Player.

Waht is the fact, is that both are on equal positions actually in championshisps which are some close the same level.....

LYon? Better than bayern ? Cause they beat them regularly. Is that a reason enough?

I am not a patriot because i am not a frenchman, neither live in France, jhust watch the different championships and teams....

OMfan, you are rihht. Who knew the zenit Players 2 years ago? And they are definately superior to Bayern Munich.....

Bayern champion in France ? i really really doubt, too much often the german Champion has been beaten by the french champion in Championsleague, and often with very high scores.. We will see what will happen this year.....

Author: Alan96
Date: 15-09-2008, 20:48

Hello @ all this is my first post in that great forum!!!

@ Malko: sry, Lyon beat Bayern the last time in 2003. Lyon beat Bremen clearly ok, and Stuttgart in the first match cleary in the second match with luck (Hitzlsperger missed a penalty at 3-2 for Lyon) and only one time with a very high score vs. Bremen.
Lyon is on a same level with Bayern and little bit better then Bremen and Schalke but the rest of Ligue 1 is good but not more. The last results confirm me:
HSV-Rennes 3:0, Bayer-Toulouse 1:0, Bayer-Lens 3:0 (1:2) Rennes-Stuttgart 0:2. Monaco-HSV 2:0 the last 2 Results are from 2005. In the last 3 years the Bundesliga improved with TV Money and the new young players are better then in the last 5-10 Years. Germany is U19-European Champion.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 15-09-2008, 22:18 Edited by: Lusankya at: 15-09-2008, 22:26	"One Frrench national player, 5 national german players. Sorry, it is easyer to get in German national team than in French" Can you somehow back up your opinion? Why should it be easier to get into the German national team? "LYon? Better than bayern ? Cause they beat them regularly. Is that a reason enough?" regularly? so two times is regularly?

Author: Zhund0r
Date: 15-09-2008, 23:33

@ OMFan:
Yes, of course. I respect Marseille. They have to be a good team, if they claim third rank in France and did get some good positions the last years. I must admit that I doesn't watch Ligue 1, because it's boring the last years. Well, Bordeaux seems to have a good phase last year, but I think that a team like Lyon is tired of winning all the time. It's always a question of motivation. Maybe both, Marseille and Bordeaux, can make some surprises, but I doubt it, because they have very hard groups and last year they didn't convince me of their strenght. Malko is just talking about who's the better side, but he doesn't realise what happened last year all the time..
If he believes Germany can fall down to 7th position it is his free right, of course but this discussions simply is senseless. By the way, I don't think France will fall down to 7th place either.
Both leagues are clearly in front of leagues like Russia or Romania. It is just a point of view this year. In a few years you will see claiming Portugal, Holland or Turkey. All this smaller leagues aren't able to bring constant wins. Maybe with 3-4 teams, but not with 6-7.

@ Malko:
I just have to laugh. Your argumentation is more than simple and ridiculous. So, look at this argument (it's the very same like yours): Werder Bremen beat Real Madrid regularly last year. That leads to the conclusion that Bremen is better than Madrid!
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Didn't you watch Euro 2008?
Oh, right Podolski, Lahm, Schweinsteiger or Klose.. NEVER HEARD OF THEM!
Just some amateurs right - but Niang - he was the BEST player at Africa Cup, right. Sure I have to know him. I'm sorry about it and I really understand why you don't know players from a EC final or WC semifinal.

Author: Overgame
Date: 16-09-2008, 08:51

"Sorry, it is easyer to get in German national team than in French...."

Ok, i can't let that go. French team sucks. They are good 10 years and awful another 10 years. I'd be surprised if they even qualify for the WC.

But like 90% of "fans" in France, you discovered football in 1998, and thought "whoa, France is the best team in the world !!!!! Forever and ever !!!!".

Sorry, but come back to Earth, boy. Zidane is gone !!! Really !!! Now, like what happened 20 years ago when Platini left, you are just a medium team and nothing more without him.

On the other hand, Germany is ALWAYS present. And don't talk about recent past, i'm wondering what you will find to justify "Germany NT sucks, french teams kicks ass" after the last final.

But for you information, Germany has played 7 WC finals since 1954 (14 WC, 1 final every 8 years .....). Even if we start counting from the beggining, that's 7 finals in 18WC. 6 euro finals since 1972 (10 Euro, more than 1 final every 8 years !!!). Even if we are counting from the beggining, that's 6 final in 13 Euros.

Total : 13 (!) finals. Wanna see it yourself ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_national_football_team

France ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_national_football_team

Saying what you said is an insult to any german player and any fan of football and general. That only proves what i said one year ago : you don't know anything about football.

Author: Malko
Date: 16-09-2008, 14:37

Overgame, i didnt discover football in 1998, but in 1974...........and i am not quite a "boy"

Zundhor : "Why should it be easier to get into the German national team?" Argument: Cause the best french players play in the best teams all over Europe and are among the best in these teams. german Natiuonal players just play in Bundesliga...There are 3 or 4 players in the team which can say they are surely in it...for the rest....every player which has some good Moments in Bundesliga has the chance to play in the National team. in France, not ! Cause the place is probaby taken by a player of Manchester, Chelsea, Liverpool and so on.....

Author: Malko
Date: 16-09-2008, 14:38

Author: Lusankya
Date: 16-09-2008, 16:33
Edited by: Lusankya
at: 16-09-2008, 16:48

Malko you might not be a boy, but you argue like one. :D

"What is clear, is that the French teams in Championsleague have very much more difficult groups than the german (i dont speak of Lyon and Bayern, but Marseille and Bordeaux in the 2 most strongest groups, bremen in the probably weakest)"
What has that to do with anything?
Btw. Bordeaux's group is rather weak. There are two sure teams which will progress, Roma and Chelsea. And why shouldn't Werder has an easier group? They are a pot 2 team, while marseille and bordeaux are only pot 3 teams.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Tirion Date: 16-09-2008, 17:06	"Argument: Cause the best french players play in the best teams all over Europe and are among the best in these teams. german Natiuonal players just play in Bundesliga..." That's actually an argument for the Bundesliga being stronger than Ligue 1.

Re: 6th place race
Author: bbi Date: 16-09-2008, 17:08 Edited by: bbi at: 16-09-2008, 17:09	Malko don't forget that Lyon also has a much stronger group than Bayern. The germans are just damn lucky.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Kaiser Date: 16-09-2008, 17:10	Guys, don't forget this topic is for discussing who'll finish 6th this year (Romania, Russia, Netherlands, France)...

Author: Malko
Date: 16-09-2008, 18:12

Lusyanka, no in the Bordeaux-group, there is Chelsea the only one which can really be sure to pass 8in any group so far). Roma and Bordeaux are about the same (if you consider how Roma started in the Serie A this year, it increases the french chances. And even Cluj is better than anathorsis I think Bremen-group only have two teams which can go through....

Tirion, NO, it is not. It's jhust the law of offer and demand....the big clubs prefer taking Ligue1-players, and they know why.....

back to topic....6th after this year : Russia

Author: Tirion
Date: 16-09-2008, 19:06

"Tirion, NO, it is not. It's jhust the law of offer and demand....the big clubs prefer taking Ligue1-players, and they know why....."

Germany and France have two of the best NT. The most players from Germany play at home, the most from France play abroad. That definetly is an argument for the Bundesliga being better than Ligue 1, whether you like or not.

Actually I think that both leagues are more or less of the same strength. The last couple of years France was in front of Germany now it's the other way round.

But you keep trying to see France clearly ahead which just isn't true.

"back to topic....6th after this year : Russia"

100% agree.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Overgame Date: 16-09-2008, 19:23	Oh dear God, forgive me, but I give up. Facts are not enough, results are not enough. Seriously, i'm tired to hear the same shit over and over. If the L1 was stronger, they'd get better results in Europe. If the french NT was better, they'd get better results. Results are speaking, now be quiet.

Author: SHEV
Date: 16-09-2008, 19:50

As I can view situation not being French or German, I see France decline in the future. They get worse and worse every year. If it wasn't Lyon miracle raise in last 5 years, it would be disaster fall already. I see top 6 in 5 years as:

1.England
gap
2-3.Spain/Italy
gap
4.Germany
5-6.Russia/France(just hanging)

Portugal are the chalengers. And Netherlands desperately trying to catch cup with them but fail.

Author: Malko
Date: 16-09-2008, 19:57
Edited by: Malko
at: 16-09-2008, 19:59

Thirion, not quite....The best players of the Bundesliga playing in germany, the best players of the french national Team playing abroad is not really an argument. Nothing says that those who play in France are less strong as those who play in the Bundesliga and the national team. i really do not think the national teams are of same strengh, i still think that the french team, even if they pain to assure the post-Zidane-phase, are still superior at nearly each post. the strengh of german team results in the "Teamgeist", the french team ist stronger individually.....so the argument sn't quite right.

"Actually I think that both leagues are more or less of the same strength. The last couple of years France was in front of Germany now it's the other way round." that i could agree with, but I think in 5-6 years it will be different again. But as long as german teams play Saint-Patrics, Famagusta or other Cyprus teams, while french teams have to compete with Liverpool and Chelsea, it won't.......

Overgame: " If the L1 was stronger, they'd get better results in Europe. If the french NT was better, they'd get better results."
as I said, not as ong as they have Liverpool and Chelsea while German teams play Famagusta and Saint-Patricks...
Concerning the National team ....but they have as good/bad results as tehgerman team. the Germans were finalists in Euro, the french in worldcup...so.......

SHEV, do you watch many Ligue-1 games to say that?????? I think now if again the "big" teams establish themselves in the Top5, the low years for France are over. Lyon, Marseille, Bordeaux and probably PSG will be of another caliber than Bayern, Bremen, schalke and Stuttgart......

Author: Tirion
Date: 16-09-2008, 20:30

Ok let's agree that we disagree.
I think France and Germany (league and NT) are of similar strength, although Germany is much more successful.
You think France is much stronger and Germany is just very lucky. Fine with me. But please try not to convince everybody from your opinion because that's what it is an opinion and not facts.

Back to topic.

I think Germany and France will stay in the Top 6 for next years. Russia will keep 6th place for now but will have problems to defend it with 6 teams. The Netherlands and Portugal are main contenders. If Turkey can repeat last year they might be a candidate too, but not for long cause I don't think they could hold that position with 6 teams.
Romania seems to be declining and I think they will end up somewhere between 10th and 15th place in the next years.

That is just my opinion no need to be offended and feel free to think that I know nothing about football.

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 16-09-2008, 21:14	gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool Roma-Cluj 1-1

Re: 6th place race
Author: moro Date: 16-09-2008, 22:49	And after all this talking in the wind, let's go back to the topic, wich is "Romania chasing France and Russia". Rome - CFR 1-2 OM - Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea - Bordeaux 4-0. I think you guys see what I mean.

Author: SHEV
Date: 16-09-2008, 22:50

SHEV, do you watch many Ligue-1 games to say that?????? I think now if again the "big" teams establish themselves in the Top5, the low years for France are over. Lyon, Marseille, Bordeaux and probably PSG will be of another caliber than Bayern, Bremen, schalke and Stuttgart......
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah. Why should I watch Ligue 1, if I can see French teams in Europe?

I remember Shakhtar-Lille, Rennes-Shakhtar. Watched this year Intertoto Rennes-Tavria and how firm ukrainian outsider was unlucky to lose on penalties.

And I remember Schalke in last years CL quarterfinal and can't remember any Marseille or Bordeaux, not speaking about PSG.

France is so not even close to Germany. It's just good Lyon seasons and bad Bayern seasons keeps France in touch with Germany.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Kaiser Date: 16-09-2008, 22:51	Yes, Zenit hasn't played yet... So hasn't Spartak, CSKA, Moskva...Why words?

Re: 6th place race
Author: Kaiser Date: 16-09-2008, 22:52	Marseille looked quite decent today. I think I'm starting to understand Malko... If all French teams were Marseilles, I think France would be able to compete with Germany...

Re: 6th place race
Author: moro Date: 16-09-2008, 22:58	Wait and see, OM is very iregular team (remember last year they beat Livpool away) - tomorrow they could win 3-0 at Rennes, then lose 2-5 at St Etienne. Well, thet's how they generally performed last 8 years, since I'm in France.

Re: 6th place race
Author: SHEV Date: 16-09-2008, 23:03	Can't see how any OM play can Excuse home defeat against slow starting Liverpool. If it shows how good is OM then Cluj probably going to win CL then.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Overgame Date: 16-09-2008, 23:03	"Concerning the National team ....but they have as good/bad results as tehgerman team. the Germans were finalists in Euro, the french in worldcup...so......." Again, you're taking ONE SINGLE RESULT and draw fast conclusions.

Re: 6th place race
Author: delustef Date: 16-09-2008, 23:20	Good game made by Cluj, really CL level, beauty of football and of course, a magnificent result! Perhaps the sixth spot is not so far away anyway...

Re: 6th place race
Author: blue_shark Date: 16-09-2008, 23:32	i'm not going to talk about my prediction for this season until they are either fulfilled or torn to sunder. instead i'm just saying this: who cares what place you have in the coefficient rankings or how many teams you have in CL and UC as long as they play as CFR did today?

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 16-09-2008, 23:34 Edited by: honesty at: 16-09-2008, 23:35	Another good aspect is that CFR has now chanses to become seedded for UC last round of q.

Author: Lusankya
Date: 17-09-2008, 09:37

Good Job Cluj! It's always nice to see an italian team losing.

I hope they can confirm their good effort and beat Bordeaux at least once. Bordeaux looked really, really weak or maybe Chelsea is just that strong?
Hmm if French teams continue to play like this (Marseille were good, but they did lose nonetheless) Russia and/or Romania could come very close to France or even surpass them.

But we need to wait for the Russian teams and the other Romanian/French Teams today and tomorrow to make further predictions. It should be a very exciting race!

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lyonnais Date: 17-09-2008, 10:04	Bordeaux looked really, really weak or maybe Chelsea is just that strong? Both! Hmm if French teams continue to play like this (Marseille were good, but they did lose nonetheless) Russia and/or Romania could come very close to France or even surpass them. yes, but they won't meet Chelsea and Liverpool every week.

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 17-09-2008, 10:09	Now comes AS Roma and Bayern

Author: Malko
Date: 17-09-2008, 10:18

As Roma? Where do they come??????

Concerning the defeats of Marseille and Bordeaux vs Liverpool and Chelsea, compared to the homedraw of Bremenvs the Cypriots, I do not know what is more relevant concerning the different strength. Marseille really made a good game and a terrific gerard and Reina saved the game for Liverpool. Slow-starting Liverpool? Did you see the game? i do not call that slow-starting !

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 17-09-2008, 10:23	Bordeaux -Roma

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 17-09-2008, 10:26	I forgot about Atletico - OM after PSV-Atletico i don't see OM in a good situation.

Author: Lusankya
Date: 17-09-2008, 12:18
Edited by: Lusankya
at: 17-09-2008, 12:30

"Concerning the defeats of Marseille and Bordeaux vs Liverpool and Chelsea, compared to the homedraw of Bremenvs the Cypriots[...>"
Of course it was a very bad game from Werder, everyone will admit it. But it happens to every team, that they sometimes don't score a goal vs a team which is defending with 11 men. This is very annoying, because they had their chance but Bremen misses a world class striker. They have 4 good striker, but not great ones. And all of them had a bad day yesterday.
But we should quit the discussion about Germany and German teams. The difference is just to big and if one or two teams out of 8 might suck it wont lower our coefficient enough to get involved in this battle. At least during the current season.

So please Malko stop bringing German teams into this discussion. There should be another thread where we could argue about the bad or good performances of German teams. But currently they aren't in any battle because this year they will neither attack 3rd rank nor will they fall lower than 4th. Can you live with that, Malko?

"Now comes AS Roma and Bayern

"
Well Bayern is not AS Roma and Steaua ist not Cluj. But you should be happy (or unhappy), that Bayern takes Steaua very, very seriously! Hoeness said a draw would be a good result for Bayern. But of course Klinsmann and the team want a victory.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Zhund0r Date: 17-09-2008, 12:30	Good morning :D First of all, gratulations zu Cluj, well done! Roma seems to be a team which isn't as strong as possible at the moment like many other teams, too. Werder is another example for that ^^ Well, I told you about Werder in Forum 2, so it isn't that surprising for me. They have to improve very much to reach rank 2 or even 3.

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 17-09-2008, 12:35	Go Russia - i really want them in front of Germany

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 17-09-2008, 12:48	The UEFA Champions League has a new force: CFR 1907 Cluj It's not what a optimistic romanian said it's Uefa.com

Author: Lusankya
Date: 17-09-2008, 13:41

"Go Russia - i really want them in front of Germany"
That's nice, but totally unrealistic.
Facts: 1. Germany currently leads Russia with 7 points
2. Russia with only 4 teams always got a lower coefficient than germany in the last 4 years
3. next year Russia will have 6 teams in Europe, but from the first 6 teams in the Russian Premier League currently 4 teams are unseeded. best case would be 2 unseeded teams.
4. you need to overtake France first, which is difficult enough.

So please refrain from mentioning Germany in this Thread anymore.

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 17-09-2008, 13:45	loll So u tell me what to write or not? Perhaps i think that Germany will finish 7 th. What about that? Hope that Romanian team will beat German ones in all the matches.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 17-09-2008, 14:06	Well you proved often enough how stupid you are, so I won't hinder you to do it more often. It's a shame that even the dumbest people are able to use the internet.

Re: 6th place race
Author: alexdc Date: 17-09-2008, 15:23	Honesty, they don't say nothing about CFR being a new European force. The title is "CFR announce themselves to Europe". To bad your spoiling the moment.

Author: Malko
Date: 17-09-2008, 15:52

Bordeaux-Roma...yes, honesty, the loser will have problems to qualify....
hope and think Bdx will make it.... ;-)

well, a new force? Cluj? Not after a surprising win in Roma, but is this so surprising seeing what Roma plays the last weeks?? We'll see after Cluj has played Chelsea......

Lusyanka.....overtaking Germany? Nobody sais this would happen in the next 2 years...but it's a long time challenge for Russia probably.....a middle-time chllenge for France. But everyone has to look upwards....

Concerning Romania, let's see Steaua-Bayern.......Cluj-Chelsea....Steaua-Lyon, Cluj Bordeaux...then we know more....

Re: 6th place race
Author: Kaiser Date: 17-09-2008, 16:17	Go Russia - i really want them in front of Germany Sarcasm?

Re: 6th place race
Author: moro Date: 17-09-2008, 16:52	No Malko, we saw Rome-Cluj, it's enough. CFR cant beat Chelsea.

Author: OMfan
Date: 17-09-2008, 19:23

@shev
"slow starting Liverpool" liverpool is just one of the best team in europe and i don't know what you mean with slow starting: they beat Manchester united in premier league (with out gerard who score 2 times in marseilles) and are first in premier league...not so slow.
Marseilles was close from liverpool but loose that's the difference between good and great teams. Still 5 game but the 2 next are away...difficult...but i'm confident.
About bordeaux a lot of personn here bet 3-0 for chelsea, finally 4-0...nothing surprising.
Let's fight for the 3rd place...bordeaux...

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 17-09-2008, 20:31	@alexdc before posting read the article. I writed exactly the words in the article!

Author: OMfan
Date: 18-09-2008, 20:49

Back to the topic...
France poor results in CL and uefa is a problem.
Germany score a lot more points than France with Bayern, werder (3). Herta, Shalke and stuttgart who all win, score 6 points together in uefa.
For the moment Russia do as bad as France defeat of zenith and FC moscow (thanks copenhagen) even if cska Moscou win.
St Etienne beat hapo�l tel haviv and Nancy beat motherwell... i think the most important thing for France is that french Clubs pass this round, to win more points in groupe stage.
I'm waiting for Romanian results in uefa.What are the current scores?

Re: 6th place race
Author: Overgame Date: 18-09-2008, 21:10	Russia does as bad as France ? Ok, FC Moscow is probably out, but CSKA and Spartak are almost qualified (1-2 and 0-1 win) and, for Russia, 2 wins is worth 3 wins and a draw for France or Romania and 4 wins for Germany ! With 3 out 4 teams in GS, Russia is taking an insurance for a place in the top6.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 18-09-2008, 22:02 Edited by: Lusankya at: 18-09-2008, 22:13	France now rapidly improving. 3 wins until now, thanks to a last minute goal of PSG. And Rennes is leading now 2:1. I don't think France will lose its 5th place. "for Russia, 2 wins is worth 3 wins and a draw for France or Romania and 4 wins for Germany !" Yes but 1 loss (matches or teams) for Russian Teams is worth 2 losses for German teams.

Re: 6th place race
Author: OMfan Date: 18-09-2008, 22:10	I agree with you overgame, but it was about the battle between France and russia for the 5th place (according that the 4th is for germany). I think that even if France has bad results in CL this week, Russia don't begin to close the gap with France that's a good thing. I think that with today results, romania is out of the party for the 6th place in the ranking.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 18-09-2008, 22:15	"I think that with today results, romania is out of the party for the 6th place in the ranking" That was already clear last season.

Re: 6th place race
Author: OMfan Date: 18-09-2008, 22:19	I think so but that's difficult to convince everyone....especially Romanians. I'm sure that if this results are confirmed in second leg, several romanian supporters still believe in there chances to be 6th in the ranking.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 18-09-2008, 22:22 Edited by: Lusankya at: 18-09-2008, 22:23	Well, they still have chances to qualify for group stage.

Re: 6th place race
Author: OMfan Date: 18-09-2008, 22:25	yes 2 weeks to wait...btw romanians vs germany games are good for France.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Overgame Date: 18-09-2008, 22:26	Well, there is still a chance. Cluj can score more points if they continue to play like this, Uni-thing or Vaslui can be a surprise (but for that they need to score), Dinamo and Rapid and not out yet. With luck, they can have 6 teams in GS. With bad luck, only 2. With 6 teams, they can challenge Russia, with 2 they could end 8th.

Author: Krys
Date: 19-09-2008, 00:22
Edited by: Krys
at: 19-09-2008, 00:23

Only Vaslui can be considered as favourite from Romanian teams..
I give Rapid, Timisoara about 20%, Unirea & Dynamo - about 30-35.
Vaslui - about 60.
FC Moscow is a shame, the got almost a draw (with a bit of luck) being totally outclassed by their opponent, but managed to get a 2nd goal 3 seconds before final whistle being standing and watching.
Copenhagen got rather questionnable penalty but I must admit that victory was fully deserved and if they had more skillful attackers they score might be about 1-4

1-1 and 1-2 is a big difference.. Moscow can score 1 goal away but 2 is almost impossible. I think Moscow is out with 0 pts.
This team is a shame despite they missed several players.
They lost tactically, technically and absolutely were not interested in playing in Europe and did it like regular league game.
That was enough for Legia but Danish team is a little bit different.
I wish Dynamo or Amkar represented us this year. I think Dynamo would have passed Kopenhavn (with Danny for sure)
This is not serious for europoints cause I didn't expect many of them from FC, about 6-7 is maximum (they got 2 for now) but this was a good chance for FC to be seeded for the future.

For FC chance is about 10%, for Spartak & CSKA - about 85.
CSKA gonna be in 1st pot, Spartak in 2nd.

I think the race for 5 place is almost over cause France will keep it without a doubt.
For 6th place we have to wait for 2 weeks. If Romanians lose many of clubs (especcially Dynamo& Rapid with high ranking) it will be a problem for them to challenge for Top-6

Author: moro
Date: 19-09-2008, 10:34
Edited by: moro
at: 19-09-2008, 10:36

Overgame, as you're often verbally agressive, try to keep the common sense and learn the name of a team - UNIREA (in english UNION) or I'll start calling names to your teams. Like Anderleft (because they're usually playing like a two-left-foot player for example).

How can you guys get Romania out of the race when 4 teams still have valid chances to pass? Making fun of romanians hopes while you cant be objectifs it's really fun!

Nobody here (except Honesty) said Romania will surely grab the 6-th spot, but we were discussing the possibility. And possibilities there are. Plus, nobody's talking about the vicious draw we had, while France and especially Russia (second year in a row!!!) picked up the opponents as they wanted.

Last year Romania was sure loser - but if AZ Alkmaar beat Everton in the last round, Zenit was out and Romania on third. It was just a detail.

Author: Zhund0r
Date: 19-09-2008, 10:59
Edited by: Zhund0r
at: 19-09-2008, 11:00

Country CLTU | CLWE | UCTH | WEEK 1
Germany 1 | 2 | 9 | 12/8 = 1,5
France 0 | 1 | 8 | 9/7 = 1,28
Russia 0 | 0 | 4 | 4/4 = 1
Romania 2 | 0 | 2 | 4/7 = 0,57
Ned 0 | 0 | 5 | 5/6 = 0,83
Por 0 | 2 | 3 | 2/7 = 0,71

I listed you the points of this week. (Not that I put the games of Schalke/Hertha to Thursday).
Looser of the week: Romania
Its not that hard because Netherland and Portugal didn't play strong, too. This list shows that no other country can danger Ger/Fra. They manage to get more points with more teams.
It will be interesting to see how many teams of Russia/Romania reach next round. Thats definitely a key situation in the race for 6th place.

Author: moro
Date: 19-09-2008, 11:23

Loser of the week in your opinion. I enjoyed watchin all those romanian teams - it's the first and last time in our history playing 7 teams in Europe.
IMO the loser of the round is for the moment Russia, losing 33% of his teams in UC with a dream-draw in hand, while Romania only lost 20%. France also had a dream-draw, they handled it better than Russia, that's all. In the GS they'll probably fail with 50% of teams.
Yes, the key it's for the moment in Oct 2 matches. But we knew this before the topic was opened.

Author: Zhund0r
Date: 19-09-2008, 11:27

@ moro: I link the word looser with this weeks coefficient.
Of course you are right that Russia might be the looser of UC R1 as a whole. They were lucky to collect 4 points, could have been worse for them. I don't see Russia in a situation to hold Rank 6. Zenit plays CL and won't collect as many points as last year, so I expect a huge drop, especially the next years when they get more teams to Europe.

Author: moro
Date: 19-09-2008, 11:40
Edited by: moro
at: 19-09-2008, 11:41

I know Zenit has difficulties in ch-ship, but still they should collect at least 5 p - 4 with Bate and at least 1 at home against big names (they destroyed Bayern last year - maybe they'll manage to do it again with others). CSKA and Spartak are well seeded in UCGS (pot 1 and 2). If Romania bring 2 teams in UC, we'll still have chances to fight for 6-th spot.

It seems that Dinamo Bucarest could be punished (0-3 or suspension) for yesterday's game incidents between supporters. This could limitate romanian's weapons.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 19-09-2008, 11:56

At this stage I would say that:

France are pretty sure to have two teams in the groups (PSG & St-Etienne won away both scoring twice to win 2-1), will probably have three (Nancy-Motherwell is a tight score but I don't see Motherwell turning it round) & might have four (Rennes-Twente is hard to call at this stage).

Russia look set for two teams in the groups after CSKA (2-1) & Spartak (1-0) both won away while FC Moscow look in trouble after a 2-1 home defeat.

Three out of four teams in the group stages (CL+UEFA) is plenty for Russia to fend off any threat from behind & to potentially threaten France if they have a bad year.

Romania therefore aren't (in my opinion) involved in the race for 6th as - even if the 2nd legs go really well for them - they really needed one (or preferably both) of Russia's big guns to crash out before the groups.

Unfortunately I think things look pretty bleak for Romanian teams anyway but I'll put the first leg stats that lead me to that conclusion in a more general thread on forum 2...

Author: nikola_belgrade
Date: 19-09-2008, 12:06
Edited by: nikola_belgrade
at: 19-09-2008, 12:08

"..but if AZ Alkmaar beat Everton in the last round, Zenit was out and Romania on third. It was just a detail".

Yes, but you can't look only one side of details, Zenit could also qualify earlier if they had luck before that. Or, you could say that Romanian teams could do better with some luck or "detail" as you call it. Didn't happen, good luck this year. But that's it, you have "details" all over the place and I want to believe that in the end everybody have what they deserved. And for me Russia deserved 6. place.

"Zenit plays CL and won't collect as many points as last year"

They should finnish on Uefa Cup place, beating BATE, and similar like last season, could have good run in Uefa Cup.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Krys Date: 19-09-2008, 14:05 Edited by: Krys at: 19-09-2008, 14:10	@moro What can you say about the draw? Only Rapid was not lucky, but for Timisoara and Vaslui the draw was fantastic.. Dynamo&Unirea got a normal one. Last year Zenit got Standard Liege & all teams got rather strong group. And concerning FK - Kopenhavn I suppose with such a game even Levski would have crashed them. No difference.

Author: Kaiser
Date: 19-09-2008, 14:14

Zenit plays CL and won't collect as many points as last year

Wait, it's a matter of time. Zenit was much better than Juventus especially in the first half. Only several accidents didn't give us 3 points (Arshavin + Del Piero). With such play we'll beat Real Madrid easily, not tom mention that we are playing at home. 4 coefficient points are already guaranteed (BATE). Even if we don't reach round of 16, UEFA Cup is the best spring of points.

Author: Malko
Date: 19-09-2008, 14:21

6 th place will be a struggle Russia vs Romania. France improived teir advance by yesterdays games, even made the first step to approach germany on Rank 4, which will be possible only in 2 years. Lyon-Bayern will be an important step in this reconquest of the 4th place.
France would have much more advantage, if they didnt play 2 english and an italian team in Championsleague , while German teams did not have teams of the big championships. When Dortmund meets Udine (average teams of boith leagues), we see what is the result.
But in Bundesliga, there are more Dortmunds than bayerns, so this 4th place wil vacillate in 1-2 years i think.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Krys Date: 19-09-2008, 14:23	Zenit was not better, it was a draw game but Juve is more experienced. Zenit will collect at least 6 ranking points & play in spring for sure.. If they drop to UC they can proceed far there.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Krys Date: 19-09-2008, 14:26	@ Malko If French clubs play in group seriously I think there will be no problem to keep 5 for next 3-4 years. As for Russia - Romania this year we have to wait for Oct 2 when we see the number of Rom clubs going through. Russia - Romania next year is a little bit more interesting.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Kaiser Date: 19-09-2008, 14:27	Did you see the match? First half we outclassed Juventus. Maybe second time was not that good... P.S. Are you a Spartak fan?

Author: Zhund0r
Date: 19-09-2008, 14:28

Uhm Malko, Werder plays against Inter and Schalke played against Atletico. I really don't think you can call this luck. I don't understand why you are crying at the moment. Werder played the last years always against hard teams (Barca & Chelsea) in ONE group. Werder just needed one point more to qualify. If Bordeaux or Marseille can't beat them, its not the fault of Germany ^^
I can't hear it anymore..

Re: 6th place race
Author: bbi Date: 19-09-2008, 14:39	2 points is not that much for Romania to recover. Rusian sides haven't proved to be in form this season. CSKA struggled to get a win and don't forget Dinamo - Spartak. Of course Rusia is big favorite for 6 and my prediction is that they will stay on 6, but I disagree that Romania fight for 6th place is over.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Kaiser Date: 19-09-2008, 14:39	Werder played the last years always against hard teams (Barca & Chelsea) in ONE group Last year from hard opponents you had only Real Madrid in the group... I was surprised to see you escaping the last place In 2005/06, you had Barca, Udinese and Panathinaikos else. Hard draw? Definitely not. So you are speaking only about season 2006/07 (and perhaps 2004/05).

Author: badgerboy
Date: 19-09-2008, 15:40
Edited by: badgerboy
at: 19-09-2008, 15:42

"2 points is not that much for Romania to recover. Rusian sides haven't proved to be in form this season. CSKA struggled to get a win and don't forget Dinamo - Spartak. Of course Rusia is big favorite for 6 and my prediction is that they will stay on 6, but I disagree that Romania fight for 6th place is over."

You might turn out to be right but at the moment Romania needs 7 more wins than Russia to catch them & this seems an awful lot to me. Plus every extra win for Russia (dividing by four) is worth a lot more than every win for Romania. Spartak & CSKA have good seedings for the UEFA Cup groups & Zenit are a strong team who should at least make the UEFA Cup KO rounds.

I'm also influenced by the fact that I think that (unfortunately) the position of all the Romanian teams in UEFA R1 is far worse than it appears on the surface.

I put some stats on forum 2 already but basically I think that losing your first leg away without scoring as the seeded team (Rapid & Dinamo) is a very bad result.

Looking at the results in UEFA R1 in the last four years to check this I see that six seeded teams suffered a 1-0 defeat playing away in the first leg & only one - Rangers against Maritimo in 2004-05 - turned out favourably for the seeded team after the second leg. And that was only on penalties.

16 seeded teams playing away in the first leg suffered a first leg defeat without scoring or lost by two or more goals. Apart from Rangers only two more turned things around in the second leg. Heerenveen reversed a 2-0 against Banik Ostrava & AZ a 5-3 against Kryliya Sovetov Samara.

On the other hand where a seeded team playing at home first got a
0-0 in the first leg (as per Hamburg & Slavia) they always progressed to the groups. Admittedly that's only 4 games in 4 years -so statistically not much but it would still suggest that the seeded team doesn't need to worry too much - getting the necessary result in the second leg isn't exactly unlikely...

Of course looking at these stats there are individual messages of "hope" for most teams - however bad their first leg result looks.

Pulling back a two goal or more first leg deficit against a seeded team in a home second leg is rare (1/35 in 4 years) but Helsingborgs did it last year against Heerenveen.

And unseeded teams that already suffered a home defeat might be right to think that their position isn't great (31/36 similar situations in the past four years ended in elimination) but three teams (Brann, Dinamo Zagreb & Mlada Boleslav) did manage to turn around 1-0 deficits last year & Maccabi Petah-Tikva even managed to reverse a 0-2 home defeat against Partizan in 05-06...

Author: Lusankya
Date: 19-09-2008, 16:29

"France would have much more advantage, if they didnt play 2 english and an italian team in Championsleague , while German teams did not have teams of the big championships." French teams got the weakest opponents in UC in exchange, so what's your problem.
And yes Bayern got an easy gorup, because they didn't get an english team. They got some french team instead.... So you say they are lucky, because Lyon is so bad? I disagree with yozu, I personally think Lyon is quite a good team. But if you think they suck, it is your opinion.

When Dortmund meets Udine (average teams of both leagues), we see what is the result.
But in Bundesliga, there are more Dortmunds than bayerns, so this 4th place wil vacillate in 1-2 years i think.
Dortmund was 13th last season, while Udinese was 7th. Of course you didn't consider that. Of course there are many teams in the Bundesliga much better than Dortmund. They only participate, because they lost the cup final.
Of course you didn't know that or you just refused to mention it.

Your last sentence just shows, that you have no clue about the Bundesliga. Geez, you're so annoying.

Author: moro
Date: 19-09-2008, 16:41

@Krys
Romanian teams got at the draw 1-st, 2-nd, 3-rd, 4-th and 5-th possible opponents from the other group. The only 5 we got, is Partizan - knowing we usually lose against serbian teams, whatever the level.
Meanwhile russians got 5-th twice and 3-rd once.
Last year russian luck was also almost unbelievable.
French teams also got a very good draw - 5-th (Hapoel), 3-rd (Motherwell), 3-rd (Kayserispor) and 2-nd (Twente).
To me this draw is worthing 60% of merit of the country for the whole season (except for top 3-4 now with Germany improving).

Author: Malko
Date: 19-09-2008, 17:09

Sure, schalke played atletico, and Dortmund played Udine...the only two confrontations with teams of the big leagues...and no better results than the French teams had against those leagues so far this year.

And i am speaking of this year, and the opponents till know....so, not if Werder had some strong opponents last year. germany wouldn't have this year the coefficient they have if Bayern and Bremen already had to play Fiorentina and Inter, that's what I mean....and yes, they will have to play them....and we'll see.

France can hold rank 5, but wants "his" rank 4 back, and ebven better, like some years ago....but this will be very difficult (rank 3, i agree).

For rank 6, Romania has the advantage (vs Russia) by having only 4 teams, so a win counts 0.5, while for Russia, it counts only nearly the half.......we will see.....Steaua lost vs Bayern, and they still have to play the favorites in this group, Lyon and Fiorentina (concerning germans and Italians, i won't discuss...it's clear!) and also Cluj has to play Chelsea , really superior to Roma, and Bordeaux (which has to proof all after the Chelsea-Game)......

Re: 6th place race
Author: bbi Date: 19-09-2008, 17:58	Malko Romania vs Rusia is the other way around. Rusia has 4 teams and we(Romania) got 7.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Malko Date: 19-09-2008, 18:01	bbi, right...my fault.....

Re: 6th place race
Author: OMfan Date: 19-09-2008, 19:24	@kaiser: i agree, it was very difficult for juve and it is a lucky win for them.But that's it great team always win...

Author: Overgame
Date: 19-09-2008, 20:42

What's funnty with Malko, is, again, his habit to take one result and draw fast conclusions.

Again, when i check the past, i fail to see many french teams in the last stages. Why ? They suck, in general. But they are close of each others, so most of them pass a round of 2 before falling, while Germany tend to lose 1 or 2 teams ealier and go further.

But, again, Malko will take the one or 2 teams out to "prove" that Germany suck, and can only say that Germany is lucky when the german teams go further.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 19-09-2008, 21:32	I am sure Malko knows exactly that Dortmund as the 13th after last Bundesliga season isn't a benchmark for the other german teams. He just willingly ignore it. And coming up with lucky draws or something is just poor. He just forgets that of course Bayern and Werder as pot 2 teams get easier groups than bordeux or Marseille as pot 3 teams.

Author: Malko
Date: 20-09-2008, 11:17
Edited by: Malko
at: 20-09-2008, 11:27

Lusyanka, well I do not think Bayern has an easy group for the simple reason I do not think the'yy get out of it. Even if it's a 3-pot-team as you said, I truly beleive Fiorentina is superir, so i see Lyon and Fiorentina in CL-8th, and Bayern in UEFA-Cup.
I jhust said Bayern and Bremen had for this first day easy opponents compared to the french teams in Championsleague, and this explains the slight advantage this year in coeficcient. Mothing more...but nothing less.

Author: OMfan
Date: 20-09-2008, 13:08

@Malko

I didn't see lyon game but i read a lot about it (i watched juve/zenith wednesday). French journalists all said that Fiorentina wasn't impressive and that Lyon could beat them if they were not so ridiculous in defense. So I see Bayern 1st, Lyon 2nd, fiorentina 3rd and steaua 4th.
But I don't think differnces between teams in this group is very important, it wasn't so easy for bayern to win in Romania, steaua could deserve the draw.The problem is that they loose at home ans i don't think they could win in Lyon or Munich...

Author: Zhund0r
Date: 20-09-2008, 13:31

Yes, Malko. Of course french teams had to play very tough teams. Everybody knows that. Probably Lyon/Marseille/Bordeaux will collect more points than Bayern/Werder in groupstage, but in my opinion only Lyon and Bayern are able to reach next round. There won't be a big difference in coefficients @ CL GS between french and german teams. It is rather likely that Marseille and Bordeaux will collect many points in UC and if you are lucky Germany drops 3 teams (Dortmund, Hamburg and maybe Wolfsburg - who knows). It is maybe a bit to early to make some predictions, but we will know in 2 weeks. I think all french teams will reach UCGS. In addition to that France has only 7 teams. Well, there is not a too big difference between 7 or 8 teams, but it is definitely an advantage for France this season. Especially because Hertha and Dortmund are likely to collect very few points, because they are unseeded. Wolfsburg will also have tough opponents the whole season and that are the reasons why I think France will collect many more points than Germany this season.
Satisfied with my answer, Malko?

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 20-09-2008, 13:37	I hear only Germany ..Germany,Germany,what did Germany in last 5 years? They are in a continuos fall even Romania where close to pass them. Let us with the nazist in peace,there isn't anything glorios with German football today. Wake up!

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 20-09-2008, 14:06 Edited by: Lusankya at: 20-09-2008, 14:07	"I hear only Germany ..Germany, Germany, what did Germany in last 5 years? They are in a continuos fall even Romania were close to pass them. Let us with the nazis in peace, there isn't anything glorios with German football today. Wake up!" You should be banned for this post. Well not only for this, but for all the filth you wrote here.

Re: 6th place race
Author: OMfan Date: 20-09-2008, 14:12	@Honesty your last post is just a shame...

Re: 6th place race
Author: Zhund0r Date: 20-09-2008, 14:23	Sure, Germany will drop behind Romania and we are all Nazis. Romania is the chosen nation of the football god That was the last post I answered to Honesty and I hope he finally gets banned for his racist mania. Unbelievable..

Author: Malko
Date: 20-09-2008, 14:38

OMfan, like many frenchmen, you overestimate Bayern Munich. They are really no more the superteam they have been 10 years ago. lyon should beat them twice, if things go right. Any other result would be a surprise. And even in past times, when bayern was a great european team. And...remmember, even when Bayern was still an European Topteam, the french teams regularly beat them. PSG, Lyon,....

Zundhor, maybe you are right....only Lyon and Bayern will reach next round, even if i think, bayern won't, but Fiorentina. But.....why not Bremen? This group is so waek (besides Inter) that bremen should reach place 2 in this group.
If Germany drops teams, France also could. Nancy and rennes maybe....

honesty, really i do not share your post. german football has nothing to do with the word you pronounced (nazist). Nothing at all ! You are right that german football is no more the power in Europe it has been some years ago, but i really do not see the relation with politics 65 years ago!be ashamed.....I don not really like the Bundesliga, anybody knows it, but i would never even think those things....

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 20-09-2008, 14:41 Edited by: Lusankya at: 20-09-2008, 15:02	And ban Malko, too. Just for his stupidity. Or Are you just lying? Results during Bayerns prime time: 99/00 Bayern M�nchen 5:1 Paris SG Paris SG 3:1 Bayern M�nchen 00/01 Paris Saint-Germain 1:0 Bayern M�nchen Bayern M�nchen 2:0 Paris Saint-Germain 6:6 Points 8:5 goals for Bayern. Lying as always. Or is there any plugin for firefox, that all post from Malko won't be displayed?

Author: Zhund0r
Date: 20-09-2008, 14:46

Well, Bremen is weak at the moment,too. I already wrote in Forum 2 many arguments why Bremen won't reach rank 2 or even rank 3. You are really overestimating Werder at the moment.

Thats what I wrote about Werder 3 weeks ago:
I think Werder won't reach rank 2 in their group. Probably they will be 4th. No joke! They are playing so weak the last weeks and I don't think they can perform any better the next time. Mertesacker was injured till now and Frings is out of form. He is fat and broke his nose. In addition to that Diego didn't play any of the whole season games except of the last and now he is going to play for Brazil again. They didn't managed (or doesn't want to) transfer new players for the first eleven, because they trust in the old squad. Only Pizarro found his way back to Werder on a loan for 1 year. I don't see him better than Almeida or Sanogo. We all know how weak the defense of Werder is and Sebastian Pr�dl can't be a big improvement in his first season. Baumann (captain of Werder) seems to be too old and I'm asking myself why he is still the captain. That are the reasons why I come to the conclusion that Werder won't win anything this season. Werder often underestimates other teams and I'm sure they will do the same this year with Panathinaikos and Famgusta. Just remember the games agains Olympiakos last year. Werder played strong against Real Madrid, but weak against Olympiakos. Thats kind of crazy. Even If they reach topform there is still the problem with the defense."

Even if you don't like to watch Bundesliga - have a look at Bayern - Werder today. Then you will see what I mean, even if some important players will miss the game, but thats no excuse.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Malko Date: 20-09-2008, 15:06	Lusyanka, i remember when PSG did the first home-defeat do bayern 0-1 by a goal from george Weah..... I remmember also when lyon has beaten bayern in Munich...goals by Sidney Govou.....

Re: 6th place race
Author: Malko Date: 20-09-2008, 15:07	Zundhor, i really want to see Bayern-Bremen, but Bundesliga is not quite well covered in Europe......

Author: Zhund0r
Date: 20-09-2008, 15:24

Here some links..
http://myp2p.eu/broadcast.php?matchid=18818&part=sports

You are right about Bayern Munich. They aren't the topteam they were 10 years ago. The international press links to much with the trademark Bayern Munich. Uli Hoene� tried to bring Bayern back to the top without spending much money. The result was a huge fall. As he recognized last summer that he did a wrong decision he dicided to spend money, because it is the only way. Bayern has a big advantage in gathering good players, because they want to win CL again and had sucess in the past. I'm really looking forward for next season. Probably they recognize that some key players like Ribery or Toni are not enough and spend more money. Especially because Hoene� will end his job after next season.
Its clear that Bayern cant buy for much money every season, because we have a centralized TV partnership. Bayern brings the money and all 3 leagues (1.& 2. Bundesliga + 3. Liga) profit of them. Bayern only gets 20 Mio per season, but if they could sell their tv rights by their own it would be more than 120 Mio. Thats a huge problem for them.
Still they're having a good squad and a good coach - I'm really looking forward to their games.

Author: honesty
Date: 20-09-2008, 15:24
Edited by: honesty
at: 20-09-2008, 15:25

The nazist considered that they always are first. Now we have a descent here on this forum and that isn't a insult it's a fact.

When u see the bugets in Germany u expect the teams to do something but each year they fail lamentable.

I think they have stupid leaders that can't adiministrate corectly the bugets. It's absolutly incredible teams who have atendence over 40.000 each match with big price tickets ,TV Rights, sponsors to under perform each year.

Rumeninge is the stupidest of them all,it's only my opinion.

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 20-09-2008, 15:28 Edited by: honesty at: 20-09-2008, 15:29	Another fact Unirea Urziceni is woth entirly about 9 mil. Hamburg gaved 9 mil for a left back. Hamburg - Unirea 0-0 with the referee canceled 2 penaltys for Unirea. If Unirea will qualify eighter the leaders of Hamburg are very stupid either the leaders of Unirea are very good. Or a bit of both.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 20-09-2008, 16:27

"Another fact

Unirea Urziceni is woth entirly about 9 mil.
Hamburg gaved 9 mil for a left back....

If Unirea will qualify eighter the leaders of Hamburg are very stupid either the leaders of Unirea are very good".

Not surprising then that most of us consider Hamburg as favourites to win the tie & strange that you've spent half of the last fortnight calling most of the forum "retards" or some such just for expressing that same opinion.

As for the "nazist" (sic) comment. Maybe you're getting bored with us/or more likely your own arguments & want to provoke a ban? Or maybe you're just a bit too ignorant to know when you've "crossed the line" in terms of being offensive?

Author: moro
Date: 20-09-2008, 16:39

Honesty, I believe our non-romanian friends when saying it's very, very, very hard to stay calm when exchanging posts with you.

In fact I see in you myself only 20 years ago. I'm sure you're young and everything goes well in your life, so you're full with optimism.

However, you should remember we're still a medium nation in football and next time we'll be a big nation it'll be when a new Hagi will appear, but he'll also need a new Petrescu, a new Popescu, Lacatus, Raducioiu, Dumitrescu and Sabau. I dont see this coming, it's like winning the lotery and it's hard to win it twice in a lifetime - unless if you manage to beat the system with some trick.

Please be moderate in your posts. Take Unirea for example - I never supported a team like I do now with them. But the fact that I'm anxious before every difficult match they have, shows they arent a big team, just a beautiful one. Steaua fans feel the same with their team... Dinamo's an eternal deception, Rapid a team runned by cannibals (eating their babies), etc.
In fact it's a miracle we're up there and we try hard to stay. But we're not great.

Just a word about Hamburg: it's a mediocre team. Players taken separately doesnt impress me, no matter the price thay were paied. Unirea eliminating Hamburg should be a good result, nothing more.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Malko Date: 20-09-2008, 17:25	I saw the game in a pub with Premiere. And I am laughing. somebody said Bayern could make the champion in a championship like the Ligue 1 in France???? LOL. Really, Fiorentina and Lyon are the favorites in that group

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 20-09-2008, 18:41 Edited by: Lusankya at: 20-09-2008, 18:46	Malko jumping to conclusions after one single game, as always. :D Damn, he is so fucking stupid it makes me sick to read his "sentences" full of bullshit. I am getting so angry, I wish I could kill him with my bare hands. Why isn't there a device to stab somebody over the internet? This Forum is a mess. Why are there no moderators?

Author: Zhund0r
Date: 20-09-2008, 18:47

I am impressed! Werder played much better even without some keyplayers. I saw Ribery watching the game in stadium and he was laughing after the last goal. He's so funny ^^
THAT shows that there are teams who can beat Bayern and this shows the strength of the league. I doubt that any team of Ligue 1 could do the same with Lyon. Conclusion: Werder > Ligue1 except of Lyon ^^

You can take it how you want there are always more perspectives. Bayern didn't play that bad only Luca Toni is not able to play together with Podolski and Toni could have scored some goals. Rensing is not the best keeper and maybe 5 goals are too much. Ok, �zil`s goal was perfectly done so no chance for Rensing, but he did some mistakes like in CL some days ago. I bet Bayern buys a new keeper next season lol

Author: OMfan
Date: 20-09-2008, 19:05

I will not speak about the level of german league, i still give my point of you.
I just want to say those who think there is only Lyon in ligue1 that if it's quite true since 7 years, most of journalists and fans in France think there is a second team this year: Marseilles!!!
I know i'm not objective cause i support OM but that's true.Lyon can be champion this year but OM too.
55%/45% for Lyon because of their experience.

Author: Malko
Date: 20-09-2008, 19:05
Edited by: Malko
at: 20-09-2008, 19:08

Lusanya, why should i be banned? Cause I do not share your opinion? and stay correct: Nobody is killing nobody here, but i really think this was more an image that you gave

Zundhor, a question. Why, because nobody can do that with Lyon, you think the Bremen is better than the Ligue1? Do you really think Bremen could do do that with lyon? Surely not. But I think other Ligue1-teams, even if they can do that with Lyon, could do that with bayern.........After what i saw today, i think even more that the Ligue 1 is superior.

Author: Kaiser
Date: 20-09-2008, 19:11

This Forum is a mess. Why are there no moderators?

I'm surprised too. Forum 1 doesn't need moderators. But Forum 2 does.

I'd like to see:

European Club football - badgerboy
Domestic Leagues and Cups - badgerboy, Executor, lesvki.bg, Lyonnais
Predictions, Games, etc. - dzomba, Kaiser, Lyonnais, Michele
National Teams - badgerboy
General discussions - badgerboy, Ricardo

But I think Bert won't make anyone moderator and I understand him - he wants to keep all people equal.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Malko Date: 20-09-2008, 19:16	Kaiser, but a moderator could not ban or even warn a person which just doesn't share the opinion of anotherone. Statements of "nazis" aso even should deserve a ban...

Re: 6th place race
Author: Zhund0r Date: 20-09-2008, 19:18	Well Malko, this was an argument in the style of your arguments. Of course it is bullshit - like yours, too.

Author: Kaiser
Date: 20-09-2008, 19:21
Edited by: Kaiser
at: 20-09-2008, 19:22

Kaiser, but a moderator could not ban or even warn a person which just doesn't share the opinion of anotherone.

Yes, but moderators are able to delete posts

Statements of "nazis" aso even should deserve a ban...

I agree. Unfortunately honesty is able post such things like he always does... Don't worry, Malko. Unlike these Germans I have nothing against you, but your posts often contain contradiction to themselves. And you are right about Bayern. After today's loss I'd put Fiorentina first, Lyon second, Bayern third in the group. But it's only for today...

Author: Lusankya
Date: 20-09-2008, 19:29
Edited by: Lusankya
at: 20-09-2008, 19:32

Well Malko, did you ever read a post from me where I talked bad about french teams, when it was not an answer to one of your posts? Probably not. I always tried to keep Germany out of this thread but you always talk bad about them, despite there are nearly no reasons.

Every post of you consists of (partially hidden) insults to German football. You're always provocating.
And your backup? Nearly no titles or finals for French teams. They're nothing in the history of club football. So often I tried to speak to you like a normal person. I praised french team, said they have good chances and everything. But then your next post is just an insult again. So I lost my patience and now I am insulting you back.

But that's no fun for me. So if you could stop insulting the Bundesliga and its teams, I would appreciate it.

After today's loss I'd put Fiorentina first, Lyon second, Bayern third in the group. But it's only for today...
With today's performance, Bayern won't even be third. Come on, usually we always admit when our teams play like shit. But that's not the topic in this thread and Malko always shoots against Bundesliag teams, even if there's no reason to.

Author: Malko
Date: 20-09-2008, 19:31

Kaiser, does a discussion not live from contradictions? Does a post not show the actual feeling of the poster, feeling which can change tomorrow?
Of course football is not a beats B, B beats C, so a will beat C (transitivity, like we mathematicians call it).
But actually nothing says that bremen or bayern would count among the teams which will play a role in final battle of the European cups...

back to topic? Russia will be 6th after this year, Romania 7th.....France 5th and Germany 4th. But in 3-4 years, something will have changed......

Author: Zhund0r
Date: 20-09-2008, 19:32

Just to make sure: I don't have anything against Malko. I mean, he is not even from France and as an objective observer I do respect his view about Ligue1/Bundesliga. (even if I don't agree in every point).
Its nice to see that people in other countries doesn't see the Bundesliga as strong as we do. Probably we are a little spoilt by success and doesn't accept that our football is in a little crisis.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Kaiser Date: 20-09-2008, 19:34	To compare Honesty with Malko: Zhund0r, Lusankya, Tirion, Cirdan, please, find any Malko's insult, containing the words 'trol', 'pathetic', 'brainless', 'moron'. I'd appreciate. Now do the same for Honesty. Do you smell the difference?

Author: Lusankya
Date: 20-09-2008, 19:38
Edited by: Lusankya
at: 20-09-2008, 19:45

But actually nothing says that bremen or bayern would count among the teams which will play a role in final battle of the European cups...
same thing apllies to French teams, when did they ever played a role in the final battles??

But we all know that German or French teams won't play a role among all the English, Spanish and Italian teams.

Now we will end this bullshit. Germany won't be mentioned in this thread as long as they're having a 7 points edge to the 6th place! And if you have to mention Germany, then don't just write "France is much better" or "Romania will win 10 CL titles in the next 2 years, while Germany will fall to 20th place".

Of course I know that Bundesliga teams embarrassed themselve the last years many times. But last season we were much, much better than French teams, so there's currently no reason to say Germany is worse than France. I mean we were worse the last few years, so now we're happy, that we have reached 4th place again.
Our disaster year is finally gone, we had great last season, so why shouldn't we defend our 4th place?

Re: 6th place race
Author: moro Date: 20-09-2008, 20:14	To much power for Badgerboy (4 senator chairs) - he'll go crazy and become dictator. I like him like it is. I think you're crying to much about the "nazi" thing. You should'nt answer to his posts - it's worse than a ban. But you did. I also was named "nazi" by a portuguese fan because I said Romania could catch Portugal two years ago (dont remember his name - I dont care) - he was'nt banned.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Zhund0r Date: 20-09-2008, 20:30	I think you can imagine that it is a huge difference between insulting Nazi a romanian or a german, don't you agree? Its very hard not to answer to such posts, but you're right..

Author: Tirion
Date: 20-09-2008, 21:49

"To compare Honesty with Malko:

Zhund0r, Lusankya, Tirion, Cirdan,

please, find any Malko's insult, containing the words 'trol', 'pathetic', 'brainless', 'moron'. I'd appreciate.

Now do the same for Honesty. Do you smell the difference?"

I don't know why you mentioned my name. I never insulted anybody nor did I accuse Malko of insulting me/us. I tried to argue with Malko but gave that up 'cause he seems not open to any arguments.
I accept Malkos opinion that Germany is much weaker than France I don't share it but I accept it.
Honesty on the other hand is just trying to provoke so I ignore him.

Author: Malko
Date: 20-09-2008, 22:24

I do not want to insult anybody here and never have.
why I do s�peak of germany in this thread? it's about rank 6.
well.......10 months ago, germany was at rank 6 in the middle of last season.......
And.....if we talk Romania and Russia, which want to progress both,one of them will launch to rank 5. But does really France at this moment go down?
I do not think so. I think French teams will look up to rank 4 or 3 again 8even if 3 will be very very difficult), and if France will overtake Germany (in 2-3 years it could be done), it will be germmany which has to struggle for this 3rd CL-spot.
But this is clear: Coeficcients of the last 4 years make clear that Germany is THIS YEAR not concerned by 6th or 7th place.......but in some years, this could change.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Kaiser Date: 20-09-2008, 23:26	I don't know why you mentioned my name. I never insulted anybody nor did I accuse Malko of insulting me/us. No, it's not about you. I just called all Germans who had posted at least once in this thread. You are not related to this.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Overgame Date: 21-09-2008, 01:34	Again, Malko is the best to take one single result and draw conclusions. If i should do the same with Lyon, i'd take : Lyon-Rangers Barcelona-Lyon Lens-Lyon Lyon-Marseille (and Marseille-Lyon) Etc, for any team in any league.

Re: 6th place race
Author: honesty Date: 21-09-2008, 07:40	@moro I just wanted to gave them a drop of what they gave me when they continuos insult me. Yes i'm young and i'm happy with this. Things are going fine.

Author: cinebelul
Date: 21-09-2008, 08:45
Edited by: cinebelul
at: 21-09-2008, 08:50

Malko, are you the french brother of honesti?
Germany have nothing to do with the batlle for the 6th! Not this season, nor the next! Understand that!
And for the 3rd, there is a chance for Germany to replace Italy (2011, probably 2010 too), France is far from having something to do with the 3rd.
You are hilarious claiming German teams are weaker than French ones
Are your arguments based on the fantastic results of Stade Rennes 3 yrs ago or last year, or Toulouse last year, or probably Bordeaux in CL??

Excluding Lyon and maybe Marseille too (but not sure for OM), every other French team is a sure victim for every German team playing regularly eurocups. Germans had a team in UCSF every season in the last 3 years, when had Fra last time a team in SF???? Look at the easy draw they had in UCR1 and consider the fact that in UC you make the most points for the coefficients..
No! For the next years Ger will rather challenge Ita for the 3rd than being catched by Fra or Rus. Anything else are dreams and hopes which have nothing or very little to do with the reality..

Author: Lusankya
Date: 21-09-2008, 09:49
Edited by: Lusankya
at: 21-09-2008, 09:52

@Cinebelul:

Now it's the other way around.

You are describing German teams stronger and French teams weaker than they really are. We should really end this discussion and just discuss the coefficient and its development.

Probably we will see more Germany - France setups in the UC groupstage.

In 2 weeks Bayern will play Lyon. If Bayern won't improve until then I think Lyon will win this game. When this happens I hope Malko won't insult the whole Bundesliga again. I wouldn't do it the other way around with Ligue 1, if Bayern manages to win vs Lyon.

So in 2 weeks we can talk again, but it will be only one game and not too important for the entire coefficient or the comparison of the two leagues.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 21-09-2008, 13:26
Edited by: badgerboy
at: 21-09-2008, 13:27

Kaiser wrote:

"This Forum is a mess. Why are there no moderators?

I'm surprised too. Forum 1 doesn't need moderators. But Forum 2 does.

I'd like to see:

European Club football - badgerboy
Domestic Leagues and Cups - badgerboy, Executor, lesvki.bg, Lyonnais
Predictions, Games, etc. - dzomba, Kaiser, Lyonnais, Michele
National Teams - badgerboy
General discussions - badgerboy, Ricardo"

Don't worry moro I don't think I'd want the job. Too much responsibility for a "play area" plus I'm far too "nice" & forgiving - or perhaps gullible - & would forgive misdemeanors far too easily.

As for the current ban requests. I too wouldn't mind being able to reach into the computer & give Malko a good shake - just to extract an alternative argument out of him... But he didn't do anything to remotely deserve a ban.

Honesty has no redeeming features that I can think of at the moment. Even he would probably get a "last warning" - laid out clearly & simply as if he were about 12. And if he failed to heed this he would be ruthlessly culled.

Back to Malko - who once every few months sucks us all into a
France > Germany discussion & does it all in such a way that convinces us it's worth entering into a debate which in reality is about as worthwhile as trying to convert the Pope to Buddhism.

In the last two seasons: Germany 6 European quarter-finals, France 0.

In the past five seasons: Germany 8 European quarter-finals, France 7 (so not a bad three years for France in the middle there - a 7-2 win.

In the past nine seasons: Germany 15 European quarter-finals, France 8.

In the history of European club competitions: Germany 128 France 57.

If someone were to argue that German clubs were "vastly superior" to French clubs they wuld have plenty of "evidence" to support their view - although I'd argue that "if that was the case historically it probably isn't now & the two are fairly even".

But anyone arguing that French clubs are "superior" barely has a leg to stand on.

Author: Overgame
Date: 21-09-2008, 15:02

Bboy's statistics show one thing : french teams tend to follow the graph of "cosinus" :p

Seriously, french teams are good 2-3 years when they are not favourite, and bad when they are. When Lyon was a "normal" pot2 team, that team was able to get some wonderful result, and was close to get a spot in 1/2. When they were a dangerous pot2 (and virtual pot1), favourite in almost every game, they struggle.

The same can apply to most of french teams : OM played 2 finals when nobody were waiting for them, but lost them when the pressure was too high.

That's probably why France has the worst ratio finals won/finals played.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 29-09-2008, 13:45	So, tomorrow is the first Bayern - Lyon encounter and after the recent performances of Bayern Lyon is the great favorite here. Anything than a clear victory for Lyon would be a surprise. Maybe Bayern has a chance, if Klinsmann doesn't do the line-up randomly.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Olympiakos Date: 30-09-2008, 18:12	Bayern's problem comes from the inside. Every coach fails and is kicked away easily. It reminds me what is happening in Greece...When a club changes 5 coaches within 5 years the problem can't be coach's..

Re: 6th place race
Author: OMfan Date: 30-09-2008, 20:42	I don't think that winning will be so easy for lyon. That is CL and it is different than bundesliga. Bayern could (and will be i guess) at a much better level. But i hope at least a draw for lyon.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Krys Date: 30-09-2008, 21:44	Awful start for our teams. 0 pts in 3 matches with serious opponents.. I mean Real Juve and Kopenhavn.. It could be 2-3 pts with some luck.

Re: 6th place race
Author: OMfan Date: 30-09-2008, 22:40	1-1 a draw between the best team of each countrie.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Tirion Date: 30-09-2008, 23:27	Well, actually Bayern is 9th at the moment.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Malko Date: 30-09-2008, 23:30	Lyon lost 2 points today, Bayern won one. That's clear. The second half was a bouring disaster. in the first half, lyon was the better team, but just shot one goal....

Author: Zhund0r
Date: 30-09-2008, 23:34

I watched the whole game and it was very lucky for Lyon to score a goal. Actually it was Demichelis, but it was offside by 3 players anyway.
The penalty against Klose SHOULD have been given and if you have a look at the statistics you only can come to the conclusion that Bayern was clearly the better side.

Bayern Lyon
1 Goals scored 1
6 Shots on target 3
7 Shots wide 6
1 Shots blocked 0
2 Yellow card 4
0 Red card 0
15 Fouls committed 30
9 Corners 1
1 Offsides 2
31' 59'' Ball. Poss. (time) 25' 20''
55% Ball. Poss. (%) 45%

Even in that hard phase for Bayern they managed to look stronger than Lyon. Thats astonashing and I wasn't expecting it. Anyway, I'm not satisfied with the result at all. Bayern should have won this match.

Author: Lusankya
Date: 01-10-2008, 00:21

Malko again with his exclusive point of view.... :rolleyes:
"Lyon lost 2 points today, Bayern won one. That's clear. The second half was a bouring disaster. in the first half, lyon was the better team, but just shot one goal...."
It was the other way around. Referee didn't give the penalty to Bayern in the beginning, Lyon didn't scored a goal. Bayern was overall better and could have won this.
But Steaua managed to get a draw in Fiorentina so it's not too bad.

Re: 6th place race
Author: bbi Date: 01-10-2008, 02:39	Bayern better get their act together and defeat Fiorentina in both games.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Zhund0r Date: 01-10-2008, 09:30	Well, if Fiorentina plays like yesterday, there won't be any problem for Bayern to beat them twice. Probably Fiorentina will be 4th.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Ricardo Date: 01-10-2008, 11:05	Don't forget that Fiorentina was the team that should have won in Lyon 2 weeks ago! This seems to have been the second time in a row that Lyon pulled out a draw. I think this sounds very much like the weakest of all groups

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 01-10-2008, 11:35	Well Lyon and Steaua are probably the weakest teams from their pots, but Fiorentina is one of the strongest. So the Group is not ultra strong but very even. I could imagine the second placed team will have less than 10 points.

Re: 6th place race
Author: bbi Date: 01-10-2008, 12:44	Bayern strongest team from pot 2 and Fiorentina second strongest team from pot 4. Just as an example: How is group C stronger than Group F I don't know.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 01-10-2008, 13:00

I think Ricardo is probably posting a bit "tongue in cheek".

But he makes the generally valid point that: "strong on paper" and "strong on the pitch" aren't necessarily the same thing.

A bit like the Holland/Italy/France/Romania group in the Euros. On paper "the group of death" but - although Holland were very good indeed - quite frankly neither Italy or France played well enough at any time in the tournament to justify either the "fear" their very name tends to instil in many opponents or the expectations of neutral fans that these were: "potential tournament winners".

"On paper" BATE are supposed to be a "walkover" for the other teams in the group & Cluj for Chelsea & Roma at least while PSV should be part of a very competitive Group D. So far - & only so far - things don't look like that on the pitch.

Author: Malko
Date: 01-10-2008, 15:45

Zundhor, did we see a different game?
The second half was a crap, from both sides.
The first half, lyon played a very easier football, and even if Bayern had more shots on target, the best occasion was the head by Fred.
In this shape, Bayern would have great problems in the french league, i tell you. Lyon has to play better (than the second half), if they want to qualify.
One player in bayern played a good game : lahm.
In Lyon, benzema was great...and Cris in defense.
Lyon should have won the game by the first half. They missed it and played an awful second half. Bayern even didn't succed in scoring a second goal. Playing like this in french championship, Lyon would have lost the game.

Author: OMfan
Date: 01-10-2008, 15:59

Lyon deserve the draw.
Yes there was a penalty forgotten in the beginning of the game.
That doesn't mean that bayern should win even if the referee see it.
The game should have been very different.
Lyon could do the hold up at the end of the game if benzema score alone in front of the goal keeper.
Bayern could win too but Lyon goalkeeper is very good (it's a part of the team).
Don' t forget that it was an away game for lyon before making conclusion about forces in this group.
I think that even for his first complete match after being injured, ribery come back make bayern another team; not the 7th of the Bundesliga.
I'm sure that both team will pass this round. I'm waiting the next game against bayern.
And this evening Athletico-OM a big test for underestimate marseilles in the strongest group.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Malko Date: 01-10-2008, 16:10	Lyon-Bayern will be the last game in the group. it could be decisive........

Re: 6th place race
Author: Zhund0r Date: 01-10-2008, 16:45	Till last matchday both will have qualified anyway.. If not, I'm surprised.

Author: Malko
Date: 01-10-2008, 17:10

Zundhor, do you forget Fiorentina? Even if they just had a draw yesterday, they are still dangerous. Lyon lost 2 points vs Fiorentina, bayern could also........
There are 3 candidates for the 2 places. Bayern and Lyon and Fiorentina. In each direct confrontation, there was a draw....Bayern has an advantage to Fiorentina by winning vs Bukarest, Fiorentina only had a draw....Lyon had no game till now and will play Bukarest next time, while Bayern plays Fiorentina. after next day, we'll see a little clearer, even if it's only half-time.......

Re: 6th place race
Author: Zhund0r Date: 01-10-2008, 17:33	Whats so special about Fiorentina? They have 2 good players and are dependent of them. They are unexperienced in CL and if you aren't able to win against Steaua AT HOME (probably the weakest team in that group) you won't be able to reach rank 1 or 2..

Re: 6th place race
Author: Overgame Date: 01-10-2008, 17:59	I remember when Milan lost AT HOME against Brugge, when Liverpool lost AT HOME against Marseille, etc. Lyon made a draw AT HOME against the same Fiorentina, who made a draw AT home against Steaua, who lost AT HOMe against Bayern, who made a draw AT HOME against Lyon. The cycle is there.

Re: 6th place race
Author: bbi Date: 01-10-2008, 18:23	Fiorentina has at least 3 really good players: Mutu Gilardinio and Frey.Mutu and Gilardinio are not consistent players, but both can win a match by themselves. If Bayern isn't careful they won't take Fiorentina out of the CL race.

Re: 6th place race
Author: OMfan Date: 01-10-2008, 18:24	@zhundor agree with you. Fiorentina is behind bayern and Lyon.They had more than 2 good players but that is not enough to pass this group stage.

Author: Malko
Date: 01-10-2008, 18:38
Edited by: Malko
at: 01-10-2008, 18:39

Lets say: The next 2 games Bayern vs Fiorentina will teach us a lot . Lyon has to take some points vs Bukarest the same time......
Here a view:

3. Spieltag:
Bayern - Florenz 1:1
Bukarest - Lyon 0:2

4. Spieltag:
Lyon - Bukarest 3:1
Florenz - Bayern 0:0

5. Spieltag
Bayern - Bukarest 2:1
Florenz - Lyon 2:2

That would make before the last day:
1. Bayern - 9 Punkte
1. Lyon - 9 Punkte
3. Florenz - 5 Punkte
4. Bukarest - 1 Punkt

and if Bayern wins vs Fiorentina, it would be VERY good for Lyon

Author: badgerboy
Date: 01-10-2008, 19:35

But just changing a few digits you might have:

3. Spieltag:
Bayern - Florenz 1:0
Bukarest - Lyon 0:1

4. Spieltag:
Lyon - Bukarest 3:1
Florenz - Bayern 1:0

5. Spieltag
Bayern - Bukarest 2:1
Florenz - Lyon 3:2

That would make before the last day:
1. Bayern - 10 Punkte
1. Lyon - 8 Punkte
3. Florenz - 8 Punkte
4. Bukarest - 1 Punkt

- leaving one of Bayern or Lyon out on their ears if Fiorentina win in Romania.

Of course many combinations of other things can happen. Lyon might well drop points in Bucharest for example. And if Steaua happened to win that game they would be right in the mix themselves.

Author: sb
Date: 02-10-2008, 12:04

May finally someone underestimate Steaua and maybe we could cling to get more than your ultra optimistic projections (1 punkt(e)..

Let me spill my aborted thoughts here too..

3. Spieltag (in germana, ca deh in engleza nu se poate):
Bayern - Florenz 1:0
Bukarest - Lyon 1:1

4. Spieltag:
Lyon - Bukarest 1:1
Florenz - Bayern 0:0

5. Spieltag
Bayern - Bukarest 2:1
Florenz - Lyon 2:2

That would make before the last day:
1. Bayern - 11 Punkte
1. Lyon - 5 Punkte
3. Florenz - 4 Punkte
4. Bukarest - 3 Punkte

With everything to play for in the last round..

Re: 6th place race
Author: Krys Date: 02-10-2008, 21:33	I think Romania is out of race now. Russia is still in but with such a pathetic perfomance by Spartak and Zenit not scoring 100% chances it will be very very hard to challenge France...

Re: 6th place race
Author: Floridian Date: 02-10-2008, 21:49 Edited by: Floridian at: 02-10-2008, 21:49	Krys, Russia challenging France - it's a discussion for another topic ("5th place race") This is really a darkest day for Romania. Holland now has good chance to overtake the 7th place, but the gap to Russia seems too big, even with meager performance of Russian teams. If FC Moscow manages to pull an upset in Kopenhagen, this topic would seem obsolete.

Re: 6th place race
Author: bbi Date: 02-10-2008, 22:26	Right the battle for 6th place is over. I think the gap between Rusia and Holland is to big. Rusia will fight France for 5th. Romania is left just to pray for catastrophes for dutch and portuguese teams.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Krys Date: 02-10-2008, 22:42	FC Moscow is out. The played better than 1st game but that was not enough. An unlucky owngoal made it 1-1 but still 0-1 was not enough. Only 1 point lost no more. This challenge was lost at 93 min in Moscow.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Malko Date: 02-10-2008, 23:30	France still 6 out of 7 teams in won't be take by Russia...... They'll keep up with germany this year 8which lost important points and one team today too). Anyways, for Germany and France, the third CL-spot is guaranteed for some years now... 6th place will be Russia.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Zhund0r Date: 03-10-2008, 00:02 Edited by: Zhund0r at: 03-10-2008, 00:22	Week 2 points (top 10): England: 11/9 = 1,22 Spain: 16/8 = 2 Italy: 9/8 = 1,125 Germany: 10/8 = 1,25 France: 6/7 = 0,85 Russia: 4/4 = 1 Romania: 5/7 = 0,71 Netherlands: 9/6 = 1,5 Portugal: 8/7 = 1,14

Re: 6th place race
Author: Ricardo Date: 03-10-2008, 00:12	9/6 = 1.5 !!

Re: 6th place race
Author: bbi Date: 03-10-2008, 00:15	Man is spain good. perfect round for them. And Netherlands had a great weak to. they managed to by along side Spain the only country that still has all the teams.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 03-10-2008, 00:22

With not having the final outcome of Guimareas-Portmouth I have the following projection for country-ranking '09 (higher coefficient win at home, draws away

Rank'09 country      cof0408   cof0809  cof0409    0408
01 England           64.499    14.278    78.777    (01)
02 Spain             60.954    16.063    77.017    (02)
03 Italy             51.535    12.750    64.285    (03)
04 Germany           44.008    10.813    54.821    (04)
05 Russia            37.875    11.250    49.125    (06)
06 France            39.168     8.143    47.311    (05)
07 Netherlands       32.797     9.667    42.464    (08)
08 Romania           36.266     3.357    39.623    (07)
09 Portugal          29.677     6.214    35.891    (09)
10 Turkey            25.225     7.250    32.475    (12)
11 Ukraine           25.225     6.875    32.100    (11)
12 Scotland          26.000     3.125    29.125    (10)
13 Greece            21.665     6.250    27.915    (14)
14 Switzerland       22.350     3.300    25.650    (13)
15 Belgium           20.825     4.000    24.825    (15)
16 Denmark           16.250     5.600    21.850    (19)

Remarks: Russia just above France (this can be important as 5th country starts NonCHamp-CL in Q3, meaning that team is secured of CL-GS or EL-GS, while starting in Q2 means possible fight in UC-Q4. When it is a unseeded team(not uncommon in these 2 countries!) it could mean elimination!

other remark: Holland above Romania - I'm not sure it will happen in this distance, and then Portugal on a distance, and then followed by Turkey and Ukraine who fight for 10th spot.

Also Belgiums stay in top-15 seems without question

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 03-10-2008, 02:40	We should make a new thread, because there is no battle for 6th place. It's a battle for 5th (France vs. Russia) and 7th place (Romania vs. Netherlands). But the battle for 7th place isn't very interesting, because you don't get new teams or a better allocation.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Zhund0r Date: 03-10-2008, 11:14	I'd like to have a 3rd place race, too. The possibility is given and in 2011 and 2012 Germany already is 3rd. We just need to hold the same points with Italy and this is not unrealistic.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Cirdan Date: 03-10-2008, 12:27	We might (hopefully) have a 3rd race place in the future, right now we don't have one.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 03-10-2008, 13:44	We could open a 3rd place battle in 2 years, but only if Germany was able to get nearly as many points as Italy this and the next season. Otherwise there is no sense. At least we need to wait until the end of this season.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Malko Date: 04-10-2008, 14:04	Russia has the advantage of having only 4 teams engaged in the beginning, but they have to have VERY good results to overtake France. Battle for 4/6 maybe this year, with an advantage for France (and anyways it would be jhust for one season), and in 3 years, we'll have a battle FR/GER for 4th place.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Kaiser Date: 04-10-2008, 14:19	My expectation for Russian clubs: Zenit. Minimum 1/8 UC. Maximum 1/8 CL. Spartak. Minimum 1/16 UC. Maximum 1/4 UC CSKA. Minimum 1/16 UC. Maximum 1/2 UC. That's enough to overtake France. And if French clubs cannot win any matches in CL so far... the race begins!

Re: 6th place race
Author: Zhund0r Date: 04-10-2008, 14:45	Hey, Malko, i missed you for a while! ^^ Question: How do you expect France overtaking Germany in 3 years? Every year Germany will increase its space to France with ~ 1 point. France would have to collect many more points than Germany the next years and this year it doesn't look very good for France in reaching that goal.

Re: 6th place race
Author: OMfan Date: 04-10-2008, 18:21	end of this topic... Romania will fall i guess...

Re: 6th place race
Author: Alan96 Date: 04-10-2008, 18:30	France will earliest 2012/13 dangerous for germany. It?s a long time to there. The Bundesliga will every better and France must first get so many points like Germany and that will this year not simply for France.

Author: sb
Date: 02-10-2008, 12:04

Re: 6th place race
Author: Krys Date: 02-10-2008, 21:33	I think Romania is out of race now. Russia is still in but with such a pathetic perfomance by Spartak and Zenit not scoring 100% chances it will be very very hard to challenge France...

Re: 6th place race
Author: Floridian Date: 02-10-2008, 21:49 Edited by: Floridian at: 02-10-2008, 21:49	Krys, Russia challenging France - it's a discussion for another topic ("5th place race") This is really a darkest day for Romania. Holland now has good chance to overtake the 7th place, but the gap to Russia seems too big, even with meager performance of Russian teams. If FC Moscow manages to pull an upset in Kopenhagen, this topic would seem obsolete.

Re: 6th place race
Author: bbi Date: 02-10-2008, 22:26	Right the battle for 6th place is over. I think the gap between Rusia and Holland is to big. Rusia will fight France for 5th. Romania is left just to pray for catastrophes for dutch and portuguese teams.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Krys Date: 02-10-2008, 22:42	FC Moscow is out. The played better than 1st game but that was not enough. An unlucky owngoal made it 1-1 but still 0-1 was not enough. Only 1 point lost no more. This challenge was lost at 93 min in Moscow.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Malko Date: 02-10-2008, 23:30	France still 6 out of 7 teams in won't be take by Russia...... They'll keep up with germany this year 8which lost important points and one team today too). Anyways, for Germany and France, the third CL-spot is guaranteed for some years now... 6th place will be Russia.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Zhund0r Date: 03-10-2008, 00:02 Edited by: Zhund0r at: 03-10-2008, 00:22	Week 2 points (top 10): England: 11/9 = 1,22 Spain: 16/8 = 2 Italy: 9/8 = 1,125 Germany: 10/8 = 1,25 France: 6/7 = 0,85 Russia: 4/4 = 1 Romania: 5/7 = 0,71 Netherlands: 9/6 = 1,5 Portugal: 8/7 = 1,14

Re: 6th place race
Author: Ricardo Date: 03-10-2008, 00:12	9/6 = 1.5 !!

Re: 6th place race
Author: bbi Date: 03-10-2008, 00:15	Man is spain good. perfect round for them. And Netherlands had a great weak to. they managed to by along side Spain the only country that still has all the teams.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 03-10-2008, 00:22

With not having the final outcome of Guimareas-Portmouth I have the following projection for country-ranking '09 (higher coefficient win at home, draws away

Rank'09 country      cof0408   cof0809  cof0409    0408
01 England           64.499    14.278    78.777    (01)
02 Spain             60.954    16.063    77.017    (02)
03 Italy             51.535    12.750    64.285    (03)
04 Germany           44.008    10.813    54.821    (04)
05 Russia            37.875    11.250    49.125    (06)
06 France            39.168     8.143    47.311    (05)
07 Netherlands       32.797     9.667    42.464    (08)
08 Romania           36.266     3.357    39.623    (07)
09 Portugal          29.677     6.214    35.891    (09)
10 Turkey            25.225     7.250    32.475    (12)
11 Ukraine           25.225     6.875    32.100    (11)
12 Scotland          26.000     3.125    29.125    (10)
13 Greece            21.665     6.250    27.915    (14)
14 Switzerland       22.350     3.300    25.650    (13)
15 Belgium           20.825     4.000    24.825    (15)
16 Denmark           16.250     5.600    21.850    (19)

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 03-10-2008, 02:40	We should make a new thread, because there is no battle for 6th place. It's a battle for 5th (France vs. Russia) and 7th place (Romania vs. Netherlands). But the battle for 7th place isn't very interesting, because you don't get new teams or a better allocation.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Zhund0r Date: 03-10-2008, 11:14	I'd like to have a 3rd place race, too. The possibility is given and in 2011 and 2012 Germany already is 3rd. We just need to hold the same points with Italy and this is not unrealistic.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Cirdan Date: 03-10-2008, 12:27	We might (hopefully) have a 3rd race place in the future, right now we don't have one.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 03-10-2008, 13:44	We could open a 3rd place battle in 2 years, but only if Germany was able to get nearly as many points as Italy this and the next season. Otherwise there is no sense. At least we need to wait until the end of this season.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Malko Date: 04-10-2008, 14:04	Russia has the advantage of having only 4 teams engaged in the beginning, but they have to have VERY good results to overtake France. Battle for 4/6 maybe this year, with an advantage for France (and anyways it would be jhust for one season), and in 3 years, we'll have a battle FR/GER for 4th place.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Kaiser Date: 04-10-2008, 14:19	My expectation for Russian clubs: Zenit. Minimum 1/8 UC. Maximum 1/8 CL. Spartak. Minimum 1/16 UC. Maximum 1/4 UC CSKA. Minimum 1/16 UC. Maximum 1/2 UC. That's enough to overtake France. And if French clubs cannot win any matches in CL so far... the race begins!

Re: 6th place race
Author: Zhund0r Date: 04-10-2008, 14:45	Hey, Malko, i missed you for a while! ^^ Question: How do you expect France overtaking Germany in 3 years? Every year Germany will increase its space to France with ~ 1 point. France would have to collect many more points than Germany the next years and this year it doesn't look very good for France in reaching that goal.

Re: 6th place race
Author: OMfan Date: 04-10-2008, 18:21	end of this topic... Romania will fall i guess...

Re: 6th place race
Author: Alan96 Date: 04-10-2008, 18:30	France will earliest 2012/13 dangerous for germany. It?s a long time to there. The Bundesliga will every better and France must first get so many points like Germany and that will this year not simply for France.

Re: 6th place race
Author: moro Date: 08-10-2008, 13:16	The topic is not finished. Because of Holland...

Author: Malko
Date: 21-10-2008, 16:37
Edited by: Malko
at: 21-10-2008, 16:39

Zundhor, well' we'll see that ;-)
If germany gains some point to france when former results will be cancelled, this means that in those years, French teams got more points. Only the last season, germany got more. This is 1 of 4 (this season isn't finished). Maybe the next 3 seasons, france will get more points again......that's not improbable . It depends on many factors. Will Hoffenheim be in Championsleague ? or Le mans? And which one will be better, Hoffenheim or Le mans ? ...and if Bayern wouldn't even reach the UEFA-Cup ????? Everything may happen.......

How good (bad) is the french league : Jhust enjoy :

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=YjZm9IhW_wU

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 21-10-2008, 19:44	http://de.youtube.com ????? ZOMG, Malko you traitor! :D

Author: Ricardo
Date: 21-10-2008, 21:52

"The topic is not finished.
Because of Holland..."

I'm afraid that this week may become the end of the fight:
PSV - playing not good, unless a clear victory, PSV will become 4th in the group
Twente - a little hope, but against a Spanish side
NEC - with a loss in Zagreb, chances are almost over
Heerenveen - are in form, but Milan starts to become that too. losing at home in a UC-Group is almost deadly
Ajax - should end in top 3, but will play in England, not much hope on a win
Feyenoord - is definitely not playing well, not really a chance on a point in Nancy, though it is needed to progress from this group

I hope to be too negative, but I fear the worst this week

Re: 6th place race
Author: Cirdan Date: 21-10-2008, 22:36	@Malko: what's so special about that clip? I mean, there seem to be pretty few goals overall, but quite a lot of goals from far shots in France, some of them admittedly beautiful. But really nothing impressing... nothing nearly as spectacular as this: http://ifutbal.com/videos/12646/werder-bremen-vs-hoffenheim-highlights (which is just one match )

Author: Overgame
Date: 21-10-2008, 23:32

"and if Bayern wouldn't even reach the UEFA-Cup ?????"

And if my aunt had balls, we'd call her 'uncle'.
Bayern is perhaps 10th, but Leverkusen (3rd) has only 3 more points. Only 8 games (out of 34) are done, so please, don't start such nonsense.

Or, perhaps, Lyon, Marseille and Bordeaux will be relegated and Tours, Boulogne-Sur-Mer and Vannes will be promoted. And finally, Le Mans, Nice and Grenoble will play CL while Caen, Nancy, Valenciennes and Rennes the UC.

Who knows ?

And perhaps Belgium will win the UC, beating Luxembourg in final.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Malko Date: 22-10-2008, 17:15	Overgame, nancy is actually playing UEFA-Cup. And le Mans third of the French league....... What i wanted to say is that it's quite important which clubs were playing which Cups. germany got a lot more points because last year bayern playes the Uefa-Cup as if they would have played the Championsleague for example.....

Re: 6th place race
Author: Overgame Date: 22-10-2008, 18:06	And, on the other hand, Stuggart scored almost nothing while they could have scored more in UC. Again, you're only looking what you want, forgetting the rest.

Author: Cirdan
Date: 22-10-2008, 18:18
Edited by: Cirdan
at: 22-10-2008, 18:23

It's not true that Germany got a lot of points just because of Bayern last year. Bayern made 20 points, they made 14-17 points in the CL in the previous seasons, that's less than 1 point difference for the country coefs.

3 UC group winners, unseeded team surviving UC group stage and Schalke in the CL quarters... only Stuttgart failed to match & exceed expactations. And Bremen, though they got the coef points they failed to get in the CL in the UEFA Cup against Braga & Glasgow.

Author: Malko
Date: 22-10-2008, 18:55

well, so let them play ... ;-)
Anyways, I persist in saying that it is very important, what teams will qualify for the next seasojns. especially the coefficient from France suffers from the fact, that too often, very different teams qualify. if they begin to have some experience (see lens and Lille for example), they disappear from the international scene, not beeing able to qualify in national competitions.
Italy, England and Spain have very high coefficients., ...and nearly always the same teams qualify....

Re: 6th place race
Author: Overgame Date: 22-10-2008, 20:26	And, again, i made the calculations earlier (last year). In the previous 5 years, France has sended 14 different teams in Europe, Germany 13. And, this season, Germany had one newcomer and 2 unseeded while France had one newcomer and one unseeded. And both have 6 teams left. Again, you're only checking one side of the problem and drawing stupid conclusions.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 22-10-2008, 22:36	Germany has 7 teams left, Hertha isn't out yet.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Overgame Date: 22-10-2008, 22:40	Sorry, i forgot about IT :p So, both have only lost one team (that's what i meant :p)

Author: Malko
Date: 23-10-2008, 19:01

anyways, as long as french teams (like PSG) come with B-Teams to Schalke..
Paul Le Guen said clearly, that the championship (vs Marseille on Sunday) has absolute priority, that he will play with the reserve-team (except Landreau) iN schalke, and jhust wants to win the home-games vs Twente and Santander.
A PSG A-team would probably have taken the 3 points in Schalke and so the pressure would have been less....but as long as they act this way, they won't overtake germany, which never will send a B-team to Euroean Cup.......

Author: Overgame
Date: 23-10-2008, 19:15

"A PSG A-team would probably have taken the 3 points in Schalke"

LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLL
LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

And Lyon will win the CL, beating Marseille in final; Saint-Etienne the UC, beating Nancy and France will win the next WC, after winning all the games with a score of 3-0 minimim.

DRIIIIIIIIIIIIIING !!!!!!!!!!!!! Wake up, and welcome in the real world !!!!!!!!!

Author: Malko
Date: 23-10-2008, 20:25
Edited by: Malko
at: 23-10-2008, 20:27

No, overgame......
But you cannot say, schalke was superb today....and PSG-A-team would have beaten them...or Schalke would have played differently too? whoi knows.
anyways, i do not agree that PSg sent B-team......
I really would like see a team like Schale in a Ligue1-season. guess they do not get many points
And yes, an average Ligue1-team would win iN schalke....they are only average in Bundesliga actually too

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 23-10-2008, 20:29	Please Malko just shut up, don't invent excuses and don't make silly comparisons. You're really the worst loser I ever saw.

Re: 6th place race
Author: Malko Date: 23-10-2008, 20:31	even in german TV they said that it was jhust a B-11 from PSG........ If you fight for important UEFA-points, you do not such a thing... i hope we will soon go to back KO-system from the beginning....and then the 3-1 wouldn't even be a bad result for PSG,......

Author: Alan96
Date: 23-10-2008, 20:34
Edited by: Alan96
at: 23-10-2008, 20:38

Malko you are funny :D

I think Bayern would be played against relegation in france. :DDD
And Le Havre or Lorient would be played in germany for the CL-positions. *Ironic*

We see how good Bordeaux (with a dream goal against CLuj

)and Marseille play in the CL

See it that germany overtake france at clubfootball. 2003-2006 was france better, now german football will be every year better, nationalteam too.

Author: Overgame
Date: 23-10-2008, 21:00

I'm tired to hear Malko.

Schalke would be relegated in France BUT is ranked 19 th in Europe when Marseille is only 45th (and even with 10-15 more points, they would be ranked around the 30th place).

I don't understand how he can continue to support a so stupid point, when the results show the opposite.

If Marseille was so strong, they wouldn't be below Schalke. If french teams were so strong, they could pass a few more rounds in CL. If french teams were so strong, they would have scored more points in CL. Even the 2nd best french team (listening to Malko), Marseille, cannot pass the GS in CL, while at least 5 german teams did it in the last 5 years.

Listening to Malko, Germany sends the same teams years after years, but what i just said prove the opposite. 5 different teams in CLR2 in the last 5 years !!!

And the last but not the least. We've heard, during months, how France is stronger than Germany because Nancy won against Schalke. I just remember now Marseille - Boleslav. Will you tell us that Marseille was not caring about the UC, 2 years after being beaten in the final ?

Re: 6th place race
Author: Tirion Date: 23-10-2008, 23:00	I don't know why you are still bothering to answer to Malko. He got his opinion and he sticks with it no matter what happens and no matter what you say. At least he is not insulting and I'm grateful for that but non the less it is utterly fruitless to argue with him, so just let it be.

Author: Cirdan
Date: 24-10-2008, 01:19

On this point, I'm actually not sure if I disagree with Malko... I mean, Schalke was pretty good going forward tonight, but they allowed several clear cut chances & a goal against an incredibly weak opponent... with a lesser keeper than Neuer it might even have gotten close. I'm not convinced that Schalke would have beaten PSG if they had played with their best players. Of course saying PSG would have won for sure is also stupid, we'll just never know.

And Malko is also right in another thing: German teams care about the UEFA Cup. I mean, they would probably also put a higher priority on the league when some kind of a derby follows (as I understand, PSG - OM is an important tie in France), maybe rest a slightly injured or overplayed player that could play, but I do not remember and cannot imagine a club that left 8 or 9 regular starters at home, certainly not for a match against a team like Schalke (recent CL quaterfinalist + UC semifinalist) in the first group stage tie. Not even if the club is Schalke or Dortmund and the next BL match is the Revierderby.

Author: Overgame
Date: 24-10-2008, 12:15

P.S. and when they lose in CL, the excuses are :

1) The ref
2) The luck
3) The opponents are cheaters
4) No motivation
5) {Add your own excuse here>

For the UC, let's add "we sent a B-team, we would have easily won with the A-team". But i have a question : if PSG is strong enough to win against Schalke, at home, a team who passed 2 rounds in CL last year, why Marseille (stronger than PSG listening to Malko) is last with 0 points in CL ? Again, the same old lame excuse is back. We are stronger but we don't want to win .....

Re: 6th place race
Author: Tirion Date: 24-10-2008, 13:17	I think that PSG thought that the chances to win in Gelsenkirchen were very slim even if they used the A-squad, so they decided instead of having a very hard game which they probably lose they rested most players for the important league game. Two wins at home against Racing and Twente should be enough to progress to the next stage.

Re: 6th place race
Author: moro Date: 24-10-2008, 15:26	I think almost everybody agrees that Holland deserves the 6-th spot more than France and Russia. Anyway, since Romania lost any chance top grab it, I support Holland. They can do it. This would be a great surprise and a nice comeback.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 24-10-2008, 16:04

Moro wrote:

"I think almost everybody agrees that Holland deserves the 6-th spot more than France and Russia".

I assume you meant to write Romania & Russia - but couldn't quite bring yourself to do it

I'm not sure if I'd you the word "deserves" but at the moment I think Holland has the most teams of any country outside the big five who are "potentially competitive" in Europe - PSV, Ajax, Feyenoord (even if they suck at the moment), AZ (even if they sucked at the end of last season), Heerenveen are good enough to play the UEFA Cup groups consistently & now both Twente & NEC have also reached the groups & Twente have won their first game.

And on this basis if the countries from 6 to 9 or 10 had been playing with the same number of teams in Europe over the past seasons I'd expect Holland to be fairly comfortably 6th.

But it will be interesting to see if this still holds true in the future - when it will actually happen for real. I want to see how Russia especially compares after three or four seasons (from next year) of starting with equal teams & with teams 5 & 6 gaining a bit of European experience.

Author: Malko
Date: 24-10-2008, 16:32

well moro, even if eindhoven has beaten Marseille, Nancy did the same to feyenoord...so why should Holland deserve anything.

Schalke has more UEFA-points than PSG, yes. But Schalke plays more often European Cups than PSG the last years, and yes...

German national team? better than french? LOL.....even if most french players do not play in the Ligue1, they are all best players in the best clubs of the world.and there a Scxhweini should be better? Megalol.....

Author: saibot
Date: 24-10-2008, 18:06

Well,
the past (and especially the German past) has shown that not always (better: almost never) the national team with the best individuals wins the cup.
Germany grabbed a second place at the Euro & was third at the last WC, France came second at the WC and had a disatrous Euro. Based purely on results it is at least not completely irrational to argue that Germany is ahead of France at the moment.
In addition to that "Les Bleus" seem to depend very much from Ribery, who incidentally plays in the oh-sooooo-weak Bundesliga...

And by the way:
I think France would be glad to have a player like Schweinsteiger within their ranks.

Author: Malko
Date: 24-10-2008, 18:34

Okay, France is vice.champion of the world, germany ist third...(3rd or 4th is the same, this game is of no interest).
germany is vice-European Champion? Let me laugh...see the groups which sent them in final. No crossover, and all the best teams were in the other half. Italy, France, Spain, Holland.....only one could have the chance to be in final.....the german half was so much easier...so please, do not overestimate it.
Ribery? who is Ribery? He went from metz to galatasaray, only to earn more money. He didnt get any money, and fernandez (former Metz.coach and then Marseille-coach ) took him back to marseille. otherwise no-one wouldn't speak of Ribery again.
Bayern gave him more money than Marseille, no great club from the big leagues was interested in him (what we cannot say from other league-1 players at this time). So he went to Munich. and if tomorrow abu Dhabi offers more money, Ribery will go to Abu Dhabi....so far Ribery.
he is the messiah in germany, but in France, he is one of many players.......the Ligue 1 has actually Benzema or Gourcuff, which are better players than the Bayern-player.
Schweinsteiger in the Ligue 1 ? LOL...why doesnt' he try a better championship than the Bundesliga? we would see.......Podolski and Klose? compared to Henry or Benzema?Nasri or Ben arfa? Sorry, germany wins only the second price.....

Re: 6th place race
Author: Zhund0r Date: 24-10-2008, 18:48	Come on, Malko. It is enough now. Since I visited this forum I only see posts from you regarding France vs. Germany. WHO cares? By the way - this thread is about 6th place race and both (France and Germany) won't get involved in this race this and probably the next years. If you want to discuss some more years about this stupid topic you can make a new thread. Call it: Malko vs. Germany! Thanks!

Re: 6th place race
Author: Malko Date: 24-10-2008, 18:59	back to 6th place so far.........is this still worth a topic? it will be Russia for sure

Author: OMfan
Date: 24-10-2008, 20:13

Please Malko...
Who is Ribery????????????? Just a wonderfull player, French National team is much better when he is here. We need Ribery, Gourcuff or Benzema.
I think Marseilles has a very good team this season but 0 points in CL so i've got one thing to do: close my mouth.
About Schalke 04, they outclassed PSG, no matter A or B team in 10 years we'll see in the stats Schalke 3-1 Psg that's all.
The results are here.

This round France score more than 1 point in country coeff that's good.
I'd like a 10 for the year and i hope.
@Moro I don't think netherland will take the 6th spot.
And for France the objective is to keep the 5th place that will be very important in the next years. I think that if we continue like this we'll do it. No way that we overtake germany...

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 24-10-2008, 23:29

It's been a long time since I have not read that thread.
Happy to see that Malko is still in good shape

It was not my intention to post any comment here, but I really have to react to this

Bayern gave him more money than Marseille, no great club from the big leagues was interested in him

Well, you certainly do not consider Lyon as a great club of a big league

, but you certainly remember that Lyon were very very much interested to take Ribery in 2006 and offered as much money as Bayern to get him. It's just that Marseille would have preferred dying rather than selling him to us.

Author: Malko
Date: 25-10-2008, 12:08

OMfan...well I do not like Ribery, i didn't like him when he was in Metz 8even if there he was the best player), I do not like him today.....and even if he is maybe a good player, I do not know if he will any day be good for a team, incuding Bayern and France.......
And....if he would be really the best french player, he would not play in the german championship.....

Lyonnais, surely Ribery would have done better to go to lyon than to Munich, but it's true......he came from Marseille.

Author: Alan96
Date: 25-10-2008, 13:13
Edited by: Alan96
at: 25-10-2008, 13:28

If Ribery is so bad, the French Nationalteam can play without him, they do well at the moment in the WC-Qualifying Group. :rolleyes
Thanks him, France doesn?t lost in Romania.

Edit: Rennes lost probably intentionally against Hamburg last season 0-3, Toulose against Leverkusen also 0-1. Lyon doesn?t need win in Munich this season, Lyon had Bayern intentionally leave better to play. Yup of course. If the Ligue 1 is sooooo good, why the teams don?t beat german teams? (Don?t come with Nancy, that was only one game and it?s 2 years ago.)

Re: 6th place race
Author: Malko Date: 25-10-2008, 13:54	Last year, french team lost vs german, but it was in germany. Even this year, PSG had to go to germany. Lyon had a draw in bayern. Now, we would see how they would play in France....

Re: 6th place race
Author: Lusankya Date: 25-10-2008, 18:49	Malko there is no need to repeat yourself. We all know, that all 18 Bundesliga teams would be relegated to third French league after two years. Despite having nothing to do with the topic, we all know the French national team is much better and more successful than the German team, also your u-national teams are much better than the German u-national teams. Everthing else is a lie!