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| UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: ToffeeDan
Date: 27-08-2008, 14:24 | Hi, would someone kindly clarify the statement on the UEFA Database for Rd 1: "Clubs from the same association will not be drawn into the same group" and with regard to the 10 pots for the draw, on Friday: Changes are applied with the following rules in mind: 1) no country can have two or more teams in the same group, Whereas: The UEFA Regulations simply stipulate: First-round matches are played according to the cup (knock-out) system, with each club playing each opponent twice, in home and away matches. Clubs from the same association cannot be drawn against each other I am confused! Where do the regulations indicate that 2 teams from the same country cannot be seeded and be in the same pot for the draw? Thanks ToffeeDan |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: bert.kassies
Date: 27-08-2008, 15:19 | ToffeDan, The UC regulations stipulate in Article 8: "8.01 For the first and second qualifying round as well as the first round, the UEFA administration may form groups, taking the economic interests of the participating clubs into consideration as far as possible .... " and "8.02 The UEFA administration seeds clubs for the first and second qualifying rounds as well as for the first round and the group stage, in accordance with the club coefficient rankings established at the beginning of the season and according to the principles set by the Club Competitions Committee.". So, the regulations do not say that there must be 8 groups of 10. Just that groups may be formed. And that 2 teams from the same country cannot be in the same group is just a way to avoid the pairing of teams from the same country. And furthermore the last fact is based on a hypothesis about the forming of the groups. Not on a fact. |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: ToffeeDan
Date: 27-08-2008, 15:35 | Thanks, and keep up the great work |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: Madeirense
Date: 28-08-2008, 01:09 Edited by: Madeirense at: 28-08-2008, 02:23 | Bert, Could you please elucidate to me how changes are made when teams of the same country happen to be placed in the same group if effectively Uefa decides to repeat the procedure of the last few seasons for the draw for Round 1 of the Uefa Cup next Friday concerning the distribution of the 40 seeded teams and the 40 non-seeded teams over 8 groups according to their coefficient. After the results of tonight?s games for the 3rd CL Qualifying Round,and realizing of course that a lot will change after the 32 games which will be played tomorrow for the 2nd UC Qualifying round,whereby a lot of surprises will be confirmed, I made a simulation and formed 8 groups of 5 seeded teams and 5 non-seeded teams using the formula you mention in "Seeding in the Uefa Cup 2008/2009". Obviously, in different cases, and according to their coefficient, there are situations where teams of the same country are placed in the same group. Here are a few examples: Group 1 would have Milan and Sampdoria ansd also Besiktas and Galatsaray as seeded teams, and Vaslui ands Politechnica as non-seeded teams. In Group 3 Sparta Praha and Slavia Praha would be placed as seeded teams whereas Brondby and Nordsjaelland would be in this group as non-seeded teams and in Group 8 Sporting Braga would be placed as seeded team whereby my Marítimo would be placed as non-seeded team. Obviously, I repeat, the situation will completely change after tomorrow?s games. My questions now are the following: 1) which team is moved to another group in exchange with a team on the same "line" when in the same group there is a seeded team and a non-seeded team of the same country, the seeded team or the non-seeded team? And to which group,the next one or the group before? Obviuosly in case that there is no other group that needs changes 2) which team is moved to another group in exchange with a team on the same "line" when in the same group there are two seeded teams of the same country or two non-seeded teams of the same country, the higher coefficient or the lower coefficient? Again, to the next one ot to the one before? In situation 1), wouldn?t it just be easier if Uefa starts the draw of the group by drawing one of the teams of the same country, for example the seeded one, amongst the 4 other non-seeded teams in the group excluding the non-seeded team of the same country? This way no changes would have to be made moving teams from one group to another, like when they make a conditioned draw for Champion?s League, whereby one team cannot draw another specific team. In situation 2), here again, I don?t see what the problem is if there are two seeded, or two non-seeded teams of the same country in the same group, because they could never be drawn against each other. Here again no changing of teams to other groups would be necessary. Looking forward to your comments, and obviosly to the comments of all other members of this forum on this matter.............. |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: bert.kassies
Date: 28-08-2008, 12:25 | Madeirense, I would love to, but I have no more info than listed on Seeding in the UEFA Cup 2008/2009. I agree with you that not all steps are logical. And finally, it is just a hypothesis. In some years the procedure was quite obvious, in other years there were many exceptions. |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: playtony
Date: 28-08-2008, 17:19 | I will follow all changes in UEFA Cup seedings and possible groups live tonight on UEFA Cup Draw @ Playtony. As a Red Star fan, I am hoping for a small wonder to move into seeded teams for tomorrow's draw:-). |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: ToffeeDan
Date: 28-08-2008, 19:18 | Of course you can make a very solid case for not messing around with the equality of the groups when, for example, Tottenham and Everton might have been in the same pot as seeds - their potential opponents would still be facing a team from a different nation anyway. Equally by just opting to move the next "available" team in the unseeded element into the appropriate group you retain a set of groups for the draw of roughly equal total coefficients. It could get rather messy with 3 consecutive teams from Romania in line to potentially be pushed around for the sake of avoidance of a Romanian (seeded) team. Would that these things were simple and transparent - we would all know well in advance of the draw what the combinations will be |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: putzeijs
Date: 28-08-2008, 23:43 | I'm affraid Playtony didn't cope very well with the elimination of Red Star. Almost midnight and most of the 'unexpected' eliminated teams still figure on his list. I hope this will seriously change. At the moment Belgian team Brugges looks to be in the same pot with it's previous UC R1 opponents Artmedia and Brann. |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: ToffeeDan
Date: 28-08-2008, 23:54 | My assumptions - based on the 1 per country rule and shifting the next available ranked team into the groups as follows AC Milan Ita 119.934 Besiktas Tur 40.469 Spartak Moscow Rus 40.437 Hertha BSC Ger 27.078 Partizan Belgrade Srb 25.527 v AS Saint-Étienne Fra 17.380 Wisla Kraków Pol 15.973 Motherwell Sco 11.013 Metalist Kharkiv Ukr 10.932 St. Patrick's Athletic Irl 2.420 Sevilla Esp 102.837 Rapid Bucuresti Rom 41.398 Paris Saint-Germain Fra 37.380 Sampdoria Ita 28.934 Portsmouth FC Eng 24.996 v FC Zurich Sui 16.993 VfL Wolfsburg Ger 16.078 Banik Ostrava Cze 11.496 FC Salzburg Aut 10.840 FBK Kaunas Lit 2.640 Valencia Esp 83.837 Club Brugge Bel 41.810 Sparta Praha Cze 36.496 Manchester City Eng 30.996 AS Nancy Lorraine Fra 25.380 v Vitoria Guimaraes Por 18.176 FC Twente Enschede Ned 14.610 Kayserispor Tur 11.469 AC Bellinzona Sui 7.993 Honka Espoo Fin 3.176 Benfica Por 77.176 Everton Eng 43.996 Dinamo Bucuresti Rom 36.398 Galatasaray Tur 30.469 Racing Santander Esp 24.837 v Dinamo Zagreb Cro 17.836 Standard Liege Bel 14.810 NEC Nijmegen Ned 12.610 Young Boys Sui 7.993 Omonia Nicosia Cyp 3.327 Schalke 04 Ger 67.078 Deportivo La Coruna Esp 46.837 Heerenveen Ned 35.610 Slavia Praha Cze 31.496 Aston Villa Eng 24.996 v Brondby IF Den 18.748 Maritimo Funchal Por 15.176 SK Brann Bergen Nor 12.400 Cherno More Varna Bul 7.644 APOEL Nicosia Cyp 3.327 CSKA Moscow Rus 59.437 Ajax Ned 51.610 Rosenborg BK Nor 35.400 Austria Wien Aut 31.840 Stade Rennais Fra 24.380 v Borussia Dortmund Ger 21.078 Vitoria Setubal Por 15.176 Unirea Urziceni Rom 13.398 Lech Poznan Pol 6.973 Slaven Koprivnica Cro 3.836 Tottenham Hotspur Eng 55.996 VfB Stuttgart Ger 52.078 Udinese Ita 34.934 Levski Sofia Bul 32.644 FC Kobenhavn Den 23.748 v Litex Lovech Bul 18.644 FK Moscow Rus 14.437 FC Vaslui Rom 13.398 Borac Cacak Srb 5.527 MSK Zilina Svk 4.070 Hamburger SV Ger 52.078 Olympiakos Piraeus Gre 51.525 Feyenoord Ned 33.610 Sporting Braga Por 33.176 Hapoel Tel-Aviv Isr 21.197 v Napoli Ita 19.934 Petrzalka Bratislava (Artmedia) Svk 14.070 FC Timisoara Rom 13.398 FC Nordsjaelland Den 6.748 Kalmar FF Swe 4.518 |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: playtony
Date: 28-08-2008, 23:58 | @ putzeijs: Yes, this is true:-(. I was at stadium, and we lost at very shamefull way. Sorry to everybody who was expecting my updates... |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: cyberjimmy
Date: 29-08-2008, 00:07 | Does anybody know when the groups for the draw are communicated by UEFA ? Tonight or tomorrow morning ? |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: Capsoni
Date: 29-08-2008, 00:21 Edited by: Capsoni at: 29-08-2008, 00:55 | @ToffeDan: For Group 1 i would say: AC Milan Besiktas Istanbul Spartak Moskau Hertha BSC Partizan Belgrad ------------------ FC ZÃ?rich VfL Wolfsburg Wisla Krakow Matallist Kharkiv St. Patricks Athletics |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: osvaldopiazzolla
Date: 29-08-2008, 00:59 | @capsoni : yes but he had to switch saint etienne to group 1 because of three french clubs in group 2. |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: walter-wade
Date: 29-08-2008, 01:19 | hello friends; please can someone tell and explain me the procedure in order to determine uefa cup 5-5 draw groups before the draw..how do you make your assumption? |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: Bruno
Date: 29-08-2008, 01:35 | First teams are ordered according to ranking position (1-80): pos G1 G2 G3 G4 G5 G6 G7 G8 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 2 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 3 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 4 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 5 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 6 48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41 7 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 8 64 63 62 61 60 59 58 57 9 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 10 80 79 78 77 76 75 74 73 Constraint : only one team per country in every 5-5 group. Manipulation : UEFA Black Magic, which we're all trying to reproduce. A few rules that proved approximately OK in the past (courtesy of Mr. Kassies) : Changes are applied with the following rules in mind: 1) no country can have two or more teams in the same group, 2) the title-holder is not treated as top-seed but ranked by coefficient, 3) changes are applied only at the same row (or the same position in the groups). When changes are required for one or two groups they are usually applied by swapping teams at the same row. For a single group the swap is usually done with a team on the same row with a lower coefficient (if possible). These rules cannot explain all changes made by UEFA. |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: walter-wade
Date: 29-08-2008, 01:45 | thank u man; i am a littlwe bit illuminated |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: Capsoni
Date: 29-08-2008, 01:50 | is it possible that 2 teams from one country are in the same group if they are both seeded or unseeded? Like Stuttgart and Hamburg in G8 or Everton and Aston in G4 and La Coruna and Santander in G5. Normally it doesnt matter |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: Bruno
Date: 29-08-2008, 01:56 | @ Capsoni It does not matter indeed... But still UEFA preferred (in previous years) to have only one team per country per group. |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: Madeirense
Date: 29-08-2008, 05:06 | On the basis of Uefa repeating the procedure for today?s draw of Round 1, dividing the 80 teams over 8 groups based upon their coefficients, the following 8 groups would be formed: Group 1: AC Milan-Besiktas-Spartak Moscow-(Hertha)-Partizan Belgrade Zurich-(Wolfsburg)-Motherwell-Metallist-St.Patricks Group 2: Sevilla-Rapid Bucharest-(Paris S.Germain)-Sampdoria-(Nancy) (St.Etienne)-Wisla Krakow-Kayserispor-Salzburg-Kaunas Group 3: Valencia-Brugge-(Sparta Praha)-Galatsaray-Aston Villa Dinamo Zagreb-Marítimo-(Banik Ostrava)-Young Boys-Honka Group 4: (Benfica)-(Everton)-D. Bucharest-(Manch. City)-(Portsmouth) (Guimarães)-(Setubal)-Brann Bergen-Bellinzona-Omonia Nicosia Group 5: Schalke-(La Corunha)-(Heerenveen)-Slavia Praha-(Santander) (Litex Lovech)-Standard-(NEC)-(Cherno More)-Apoel Nicosia Group 6: CSKA Moscow-Olympiakos-Rosenborg-Austria Wien-Rennes Brondby-Twente-Vaslui-Lech Poznan-Slaven Koprivnica Group 7: Tottenham-Ajax-(Udinese)-Levski Sofia-(Copenhagen) (Napoli)-FK Moscow-Polit.Timisoara-(Nordsjaelland)-Zilina Group 8: (Hamburg)-(Stuttgart)-Feijenoord-Sp. Braga-Hapoel Tel Aviv (Bor. Dortmund)-Petr.Bratislava-Unirea-Borac-Kalmar (...) are the teams who belong to the same country in the same group. Remakable is that only group 6 would have 10 teams from 10 different countries Assuming that Uefa repeats the same procedure of the last year and working on the basis of, wherever possible, between two team of the same coutry within the same group, exchanging the team of the lower coefficient with the team on the same "line" of the next(right-side)group, one would then come to the following formations: Group 1: Milan-Besiktas-Sp. Moscow-Hertha-Partizan Belgrade Zurich-(Wisla Krakow)-Motherwell-Metallist-St- Patrick?s Group 2: Sevilla-Rap Bucharest-Paris St.Germain-Sampdoria-(Portsmouth) (Dinamo Zagreb)-(Wolfsburg)-Kayserispor-Salzburg-Kaunas Group 3: Valencia-Brugge-Sparta Praha-Galatsaray-Aston Villa (St. Etienne)-Marítimo-(Brann Bergen)-Young Boys-Honka Group 4: Benfica-Everton-Dinamo Bucharest-(Austria Wien)-(Nancy) (Litex)-(Twente)-(Banik Ostrava)-Bellinzona-Omonia Nicosia Group 5: Schalke-La Corunha-Heerenveen-Slavia Praha-(Rennes) (Guimarães)-Standard-(Vaslui)-Cherno More-Apoel Nicosia Group 6: CSKA Moscow-(Stuttgart)-Rosenborg-Austria Wien-(Santander) Brondby-(Setubal)-(NEC)-Lech Poznan-Slaven Koprivnica Group 7: Tottenham-Ajax-Udinese-Levski Sofia-Copenhagen (Borussia Dortmund)-FK Moscow-Politenica-(Borac)-Zilina Group 8: Hamburg-(Olympiakos)-Feijenoord-Sp.Braga-Hapoel Tel Aviv (Napoli)-Petr. Bratislava-Uniea-(Nordsjaelland)-Kalmar The actual formations of the groups later on will probably not even be close to the groups I formed. Well, we?ll know in a few hours time. (......) are the teams which changed groups in order to avoid having two teams of the same country in the same group |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: MartinW
Date: 29-08-2008, 10:03 | The official list is now on the UEFA website here |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: Ricardo
Date: 29-08-2008, 10:08 | Uefa.com article with the groups Dutch chances: Ajax can draw Dortmund, Wisla, FC Moskou, Borac and Zilina. Dortmund will mean trouble, while the other might turn into underestimation and loss -> nothing sure Feyenoord can draw St Etienne, Artmedia, Unirea, Nordsjaelland, Kalmar. Maybe Unirea would be nice for the coefficient-confrontation Heerenveen can draw Litex, Vitoria, Brann, Lech, APOEL. This should be doable for Heerenveen Twente can draw CSKA, Stuttgart, Rosenborg, Slavia, Rennes. They have a fighting chance. NEC can draw Benfica, Everton, Dinamo B., Galatasaray, Santander. They are doomed no matter who they draw |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: MartinW
Date: 29-08-2008, 10:12 | Worst possible draw for English clubs: Portsmouth v Wolfsburg Man City v Dinamo Zagreb Everton v Napoli Aston Villa v Vitoria Setubal Tottenham v B Dortmund Best possible draw for English clubs: Portsmouth v Kaunas Man City v Omonia Nicosia Everton v Honka Espoo Aston Villa v Apoel Nicosia Tottenham v MSK Zilina However Kaunas have already made one big surprise this year and it doesn't seem a good time to be playing Cypriot clubs either! I expect Tottenham will be sweating it out hoping to avoid Dortmund. |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: christoph2136
Date: 29-08-2008, 10:23 Edited by: christoph2136 at: 29-08-2008, 10:28 | Possible worst draw for German sides: Hertha - Zuerich Sevilla - Wolfsburg Schalke - Brann Stuttgart - Twente Tottenham - Dortmund Hamburg - St.Etienne Possible best draf for German sides: Hertha - St.Patrick's Rapid Bucuresti - Wolfsburg Schalke - Lech Poznan Stuttgart - Vaslui Lewski Sofia - Dortmund Hamburg - Kalmar |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: MartinW
Date: 29-08-2008, 10:29 Edited by: MartinW at: 29-08-2008, 10:33 | Quoted from the UEFA article: "Among those involved int he draw former European champions AC Milan, AFC Ajax and SL Benfica plus past UEFA Cup winners Tottenham Hotspur FC, Feyenoord, SSC Napoli, FC Schalke 04, Galatasaray AŞ, Valencia CF, PFC CSKA Moskva and the victors in 2006 and 2007, Sevilla FC." 1) Seems like they forgot that Aston Villa, Hamburg, Feyenoord and Dortmund are all former European champions! 2) Dinamo Zagreb are past winners of Inter-Cities Fairs Cup which I know is not officially equivalent to the UEFA Cup but could be worth mentioning. 3) It also seems that they never give any emphasis to former CWC champions in these UEFA articles. For the record those playing in UC this year are Everton, Man City, Sampdoria and Paris SG. But then it seems they must have rushed to get this article out as you can see from the typo and grammar mistake in the first line. |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: Capsoni
Date: 29-08-2008, 10:37 | There are some changes that i cant follow. Ostrava changed from 3 to 1 Timisoara changed from 7 to 1 Can someone explain why ? |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: shine84
Date: 29-08-2008, 10:39 Edited by: shine84 at: 29-08-2008, 12:32 | Portuguese point of view Group 2 - Guimarães: no chance with any opponent. Maybe the best they can is to pick a point at home. Group 3 - Marítimo: toughest draw besides Club Brugge. That could be a close tie. Group 4 - Benfica: they can get from a easy draw with Bellinzona or Honka to a more difficult draw with Napoli and Liège. But in the middle there`s the virtude so that NEC could be better in coefficient terms. Group 5 - Vitória Setúbal: No chances at all. Group 8 - Braga: Definitely not a good draw. Any team will make a hard work for Braga. I`d pick Unirea for a coef. clash. |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: bert.kassies
Date: 29-08-2008, 10:47 | For the seeded teams the hypothetical procedure described at Seeding in the UEFA Cup 2008/2009 can be followed quite clearly. For the unseeded teams it is mucht more complex. 2nd row: VfB Stuttgart cannot be in group 8 because of Hamburger SV at row 1 Swap at same row with next lower Ajax cannot be done because Feyenoord is already in group 8 Swap at same row with next lower Olympiakos Piraeus OK 4th row: Manchester City cannot be in group 4 because of Everton at row 2 Swap at same row with next lower Galatasaray OK I don't understand why Austria Wien is swapped with Slavia Praha 5th row: AS Nancy Lorraine cannot be in group 2 because of Paris Saint-Germain at row 3 Swap at same row with next lower Portsmouth FC OK Aston Villa cannot be in group 4 because of because of Everton at row 2 Swap at same row with next lower Racing Santander OK 6th row: Borussia Dortmund cannot be in group 8 because of Hamburger SV at row 1 Vitória Guimarães cannot be in group 4 because of Benfica at row 1 AS Saint-Étienne cannot be in group 2 because of Paris Saint-Germain at row 3 Instead of making two swaps at this row UEFA decided to move Borussia Dortmund to group 7 move Napoli to group 4 move Vitória Guimarães to group 2 move AS Saint-Étienne to group 8 7th row: complicated 5 team move 8th row: complicated 5 team move 9th row: 3 teams moved 10th row: 4 teams moved |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: MalcolmW
Date: 29-08-2008, 11:00 | The swapping of FK Moscow and Timsoara breaks the usual conventions. It will be interesting to see how this came about to overcome the inclusion of Spartak and FK Moscow in the same group. |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: delustef
Date: 29-08-2008, 11:09 | Best draw for Romanian sides: Partizan - Politehnica Timisoara Rapid - Vitoria (to eliminate a Portuguese team) NEC Nijmegen - Dinamo (to eliminate a Dutch team) Rennais - Vaslui Unirea Urziceni - Hapoel Tel - Aviv Worst draw for Romanian sides: Poli - Milan (0 % chances to go through) Rapid - Wolfsburg (Rapid is going to win anyway) Dinamo - Standard (Romanian coach in the Belgium side) CSKA Moskow - Vaslui Unirea - Hamburg |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: ToffeeDan
Date: 29-08-2008, 11:26 | Well I got all the seeded teams spot on - including the moves, consistent re Villa/City out of Everton's group. Some of the non-seed moves are "interesting". Perhaps the Cypriots were moved out of Everton/Villa's group to avoid unnecessary match switching. Not sure why Napoli have moved from G to D. |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: Philipp
Date: 29-08-2008, 11:36 | question: is Vitória FC (POR) Setubal or Guimaraes? |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: badgerboy
Date: 29-08-2008, 11:40 | I actually think UEFA's software (I assume they have some for this procedure!) simply mixed up FC Moscow & FC Timisoara. I don't see any other reason why those teams moved from their prescrbed row! It was nice to see the "logic" in the moves within the seeded groups - which Bert already explained above. I too tried to work out what UEFA had done before coming to the site this morning. Rows 6 & 7 are indeed the most interesting (& confusing) ones. On row 5 they needed to move three teams & simply swapped two of them (next to each other on the "grid") and also swapped the third with their neighbouring team. Had they followed the same conventions on row 6 they could have just swapped Dortmund & Napoli and then either swapped Guimaraes with Saint-Etienne (two rows apart but both needed moving) or swapped Guimaraes with Dinamo Zagreb & Saint-Etienne with Zurich. Row 7 is even stranger because - apart from bringing in FC Timisoara from Row 8 in a swap with FC Moscow there's also no real reason they (either team actually) needed to be involved in any swaps at all. Setubal had to move & did a logical wap with the next team on the row (Standard Liege) independent of all the other shenanigans while Wolfsburg also had to move but could have simply swapped places with Wisla Krakow. I suppose these are just part of the "inexplicable swap school" though along with Slavia/A. Wien, Motherwell/Banik Ostrava, FC Nordsjaelland/Borac Cacak & Honka Espoo/Omonia Nicosia. |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: shine84
Date: 29-08-2008, 11:48 Edited by: shine84 at: 29-08-2008, 13:05 | Philipp It`s Vitória Futebol Clube (official name) from Setúbal. Edit: My mistake indeed. Even I got confused.  In the live draw UEFA writes Setúbal and Guimarães |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: Philipp
Date: 29-08-2008, 11:52 | but here UEFA says, that FC ist Setubal: http://www.uefa.com/footballeurope/club=53019/domestic.html very strange. |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: badgerboy
Date: 29-08-2008, 11:57 | bert.kassies wrote: "7th row: complicated 5 team move 8th row: complicated 5 team move 9th row: 3 teams moved 10th row: 4 teams moved" I agree with your analysis up to here but after row 7 you seem to make things more complicated than they are. Unless I'm missing something. On row 7 Setubal's swap with Liege was logical. AS explained above the involvement in FC Timisoara/FC Moscow in the other logical swap between Wolfsburg & Wisla was far less so. On row 8 I only spotted 4 moves. A logical swap between Brann & NEC (NEC had to move) & another fairly logical one (now I've spotted Sparta & Banik Ostrava were on the same row!) between Banik Ostrava & Motherwell. Here it's not so clear why Banik Ostrava couldn't swap with Kayserispor on the next row - unless this change was attempted before Galatasaray had been shifted from the same row? On row 9 there was a logical swap between Cherno More (who had to move) & Lech Poznan & an unnecessary one (as far as I can tell) between FC Nordsjaelland & Borac Cacak. Finally on row 10 I can only see 2 moves. Another unnecessary swap - this time between Honka Espoo & Omonia Nicosia. |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: badgerboy
Date: 29-08-2008, 12:05 | Philipp wrote: "is Vitória FC (POR) Setubal or Guimaraes?" Shine84 wrote: "It`s Vitória Futebol Clube (official name) from Guimarães". Philipp wrote: "but here UEFA says, that FC ist Setubal: http://www.uefa.com/footballeurope/club=53019/domestic.html very strange". Actually UEFA is right & Shine84 wrong. At least according to both teams positions in the UEFA Cup draw & their respective Wiki entries. It's Vitoria FC Setubal & Vitoria SC Guimaraes. These two teams do cause a lot of confusion though. I remember some years ago when World Soccer used to include the Portuguese fixtures in an annual booklet it would produce that one season they got the fixtures for these two completely the wrong way round. |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: bert.kassies
Date: 29-08-2008, 12:35 | badgerboy, thanks for the clarification of the other moves. In all, it seems that UEFA more or less made changes according to "our" rules Even if we do not understand 100% of the moves, the system seems to work. |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: amirbachar
Date: 29-08-2008, 12:44 | Bert said: "6th row: Borussia Dortmund cannot be in group 8 because of Hamburger SV at row 1 Vitória Guimarães cannot be in group 4 because of Benfica at row 1 AS Saint-Étienne cannot be in group 2 because of Paris Saint-Germain at row 3 Instead of making two swaps at this row UEFA decided to move Borussia Dortmund to group 7 move Napoli to group 4 move Vitória Guimarães to group 2 move AS Saint-Étienne to group 8" You forgot Napoli had to move from gtoup 7 because of Udineze, so it actually makes a lot of sense the way they did it |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: forchoon
Date: 29-08-2008, 12:47 | hi i think there is a problem about lech poznan's team ranking because i can't see lech poznan in this link http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/trank2008.html so i think it's ranking could be 3.973 not 6.973 can anybody explain if i am wrong ?? |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: amirbachar
Date: 29-08-2008, 12:58 Edited by: amirbachar at: 29-08-2008, 12:59 | I think it's the first time a team from top3 countries is unseeded in this stage (Napoli). |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: Matirxx
Date: 29-08-2008, 13:12 Edited by: Matirxx at: 29-08-2008, 13:36 | Lech have 6k points...Wow, Lech is "lucky", although Austria Wien is better team... And Wisla Krakow is drawing the best again! )) |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: forchoon
Date: 29-08-2008, 13:34 | Matirxx said: lech have 6k points can you explain this sentence i am still thinking there is a problem about lech's 2008-2009 season team ranking |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: Matirxx
Date: 29-08-2008, 13:42 | Hmmm...well...Lech merged with Amica Wronki so they get Amica's points with them... |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: forchoon
Date: 29-08-2008, 14:03 Edited by: forchoon at: 29-08-2008, 14:05 | Lech merged with Amica Wronki  wow i did not know that i am sorry thanks for your explanation |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: Matirxx
Date: 29-08-2008, 14:15 Edited by: Matirxx at: 29-08-2008, 14:16 | No problems mate! The situation in Poland is really amazing and for Your future information...Groclin merged with Polonia Warsaw so the squad moved to Warsaw...they might win a place in UC next year (this year Lech took their place because of this mess)... Then we have 2 top teams Korona and Zaglebie that have been moved to second div. becouse of the corruption scandals... Before the seson ends, we might see more of this circus going on in Poland so its not possible for non polish to understand whats going on there...i dont know if polish people understand this mess correctly either..  Best regards matrixx |
| Re: UEFA Cup Rd 1 | |
| Author: MalcolmW
Date: 03-09-2008, 11:25 | Getting back to the unexpained swaps, some of these may be explained as adjustments to equally distribute the CL transferred teams between groups. This could explain Slavia/AustriaWien, but not Honka/Omonia. My only explanation for that switch uses "economic grounds" - not a good idea to risk Cypriots facing Turks! |