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Author: vukephalas
Date: 10-03-2008, 14:50

Olympiacos, the permanent Greek champions during the last decade have just broke one of the most staggering records of all times, having not won a CL away match in smth like 37 attempts. They were always finishing bottom at CLGS until this year.
The other two major Greek clubs, Panathinaikos and AEK Athens have not done much to make their fans proud either.
And it is down to smaller clubs like PAOK, Aris, Larisa , Panionios to save the day for Greece by pulling off some surprise results.

Countries like Portugal, Scotland, Turkey, Romania, Sweden, Belgium (with all due respect to these countries) have all won European trophies at some time. But not Greece! One final and three semis are the best results that Greek clubs have produced in what is more than 50 yrs presence in the European competitions.

I know that some of those nations have a great footballing tradition but that just doesn't explain everything.

In Greece, the passion, the footballing talent and the potential have always been there. So why have the Greek clubs, unlike the national team, been the greater underachievers in Europe?
What r they missing?
While I believe I do know the answers, I would be interested in ur perception as outsiders.

Re: Why Greek clubs perform poorly in Europe
Author: Edirnespor Date: 10-03-2008, 15:51 Edited by: Edirnespor at: 10-03-2008, 15:52	Panathinaikos is good in Europe. They played quarter final in CL and also beat Barcelona. but Olympiacos play football cowardly in Europa. and this is interesting, Although Panathinaikos is always more successfull than Olympiacos in Europe, why Olympiacos can be champion in a row in Greece?

Re: Why Greek clubs perform poorly in Europe
Author: vukephalas Date: 10-03-2008, 16:00 Edited by: vukephalas at: 10-03-2008, 16:35	Panathinaikos is not good, it's just Olympiacos too bad. It's smth like the one-eyed compared to the blind. But still the point you make is very interesting.

Re: Why Greek clubs perform poorly in Europe
Author: Kaiser Date: 10-03-2008, 16:28	Although Panathinaikos is always more successfull than Olympiacos in Europe, why Olympiacos can be champion in a row in Greece? compare the CL and UC

Author: Aliceag
Date: 10-03-2008, 17:00

From a Portuguese point of view, everyone around here has great respect for Panathinaikos (the best team in greece) and we always think that Olympiakos sucks.

It may be odd, since Olympiakos seems to be better at home. But in Europe (what we see), Panathinaikos usually goes much further than Olympiakos, even in CL! I can remember a lot of years where Panathinaikos as a runner up in Greek Championship went further than Olympiakos the champion, and playing better.

I can only think of a reason for that: Panathinaikos is the better team, however, at home, referees always help olympiakos because he is the "prefered" team in Greece.

I can recall a similar case here in Portugal. Porto is the best team, however Benfica keep having more supporters and referees tend to help them.

This said, I find none of them to be spectacular. Just that Pana is better than olympiakos. But both at a medium level.

Author: dzomba
Date: 11-03-2008, 09:11
Edited by: dzomba
at: 11-03-2008, 09:13

@ vukephalas: 'So why have the Greek clubs, unlike the national team, been the greater underachievers in Europe?'

I strongly disagree. I'd say why has a Greek national team, unlike the clubs, been the greater underachiever in Europe?

Explanation:

Greek national team never made anything to remember. They qualified several times to a WC or EC, but i remember they were always very weak. I remember USA 94 when they were the worst team in a competition, 3 defeats, score 0:10.
Until Portugal 04, they have never done anything. And Portugal is ONLY ONE competition where they played great. But playing good ONCE doesn't make a team great.
On the other side, Greek clubs have been a power in Europe for decades. Panathinaikos, Olympiacos were never easy opponents. Remember that Greece was 6th (!!) in Uefa coefficients ranking. If you think that's not something huge, then ... Being above Portugal, Holland, Scotland, Turkey and others is not a small thing. And that's not thanks to one good year. If you perform slightly worse one season (not this), that's not a reason to panic.

I expect Greek national team to stay among top 20 in Europe. I also expect Greek clubs to stay among 12 best countries in Europe.

Re: Why Greek clubs perform poorly in Europe
Author: seso Date: 11-03-2008, 09:32	"From a Portuguese point of view, everyone around here has great respect for Panathinaikos (the best team in greece) and we always think that Olympiakos sucks." Thank you Aliceag!!

Author: vukephalas
Date: 11-03-2008, 11:37

referees always help olympiakos because he is the "prefered" team in Greece.

That is almost true...In fact Olympiacos is the MOST prefered team in Greece and Panathinaikos is less "prefered" ONLY compared to Olympiacos.
And Benfica have won many european trophies in the past. And even during the last decade they have achieved more than Pana. They reached the CL semis a couple of years ago.
Even the 3rd team of portugal, Sporting, have done better than Pana. They were UC runner-ups 3 yrs ago.The best ever result of Pana in UC is reaching the QFs.

In other words, the big-3 of Portugal Porto, Benfica and Sporting have had much better results over the years than the big-3 of Greece Panathinaikos, Olympiacos and AEK.
And this is very interesting to note because if you compare the results of the "smaller" clubs of those 2 countries, Greek sides have clearly had better results. Very odd, isn't it?

Author: vukephalas
Date: 11-03-2008, 12:19

@dzomba: Greek national team never made anything to remember.
Until Portugal 04, they have never done anything.

Well..that's right.
However to win a competition like Euro that, apart of Denmark, only the footballing giants had won it before, maybe makes up for the complete failure prior to 04, don't you think?
In this way, Greece have won more Euro trophies than world football giants like Spain and England and countries with great football tradition like Portugal, Sweden, Romania, Ireland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Belgium and countries with a huge population like Russia and Turkey. That's the facts, I am sorry...
Just imagine if your country had won a Euro what would happen and how happy you would feel.

It's all about winning trophies, that's the way you make history.
Greek clubs have the potential to win UC or CL. There is no doubt about that..So how come they don't. That's the key question.

Author: Dragonite
Date: 11-03-2008, 13:24

First of all, Greece national team is everything except “successful”.

They’ve only qualified to the World Cup once- in 1994. They lost the 3 games, 0 goals scored, 10 goals against.

This “record” puts them at the same level of Iraq, Slovenia, Togo, Canada, China, UAE, New Zealand or Haiti.

They played 2 European Cups- 1980 & 2004 (they’ll play a 3rd this year).

In 1980, 1 draw and 2 defeats, 1 goal scored, 4 goals against

And then they won Euro 2004- Congratulations!

However, apart from Euro 2004, the truth is they’ve only qualified for major tournaments twice (1980 & 1994), they played 6 games, and the results are 1 draw, 5 defeats, 1 goal scored, 14 goals against

In the European Cups all time table, they’re just 11th, with 14 points.

The following nations are ahead of them:

Germany 55
Holland 50
France 48
Italy 40
Czech Republic 35
Portugal 34
Spain 32
Russia 29
England 28
Denmark 24
Greece 14
(…)

Re: Why Greek clubs perform poorly in Europe
Author: vukephalas Date: 11-03-2008, 13:45 Edited by: vukephalas at: 11-03-2008, 13:46	@Dragonite: In the European Cups all time table, they¢re just 11th, with 14 points. That's not too bad.. If you check total country results in club level since the 1950's when the UEFA competitions commenced, you'll see Greece is not even in the top 20. And as I said, it's all about winning trophies...

Author: Dragonite
Date: 11-03-2008, 14:04

And Benfica have won many european trophies in the past. And even during the last decade they have achieved more than Pana. They reached the CL semis a couple of years ago.
Even the 3rd team of portugal, Sporting, have done better than Pana. They were UC runner-ups 3 yrs ago.The best ever result of Pana in UC is reaching the QFs.

In other words, the big-3 of Portugal Porto, Benfica and Sporting have had much better results over the years than the big-3 of Greece Panathinaikos, Olympiacos and AEK.
And this is very interesting to note because if you compare the results of the "smaller" clubs of those 2 countries, Greek sides have clearly had better results. Very odd, isn't it?

-----------------------------

Wow…

Several false statements over there:

Panathinaikos is above Benfica in the CL all time ranking. Panathinaikos is 23rd (74 points) while Benfica is just 31st (50 points).

Benfica reached the CL QUARTERS in 2006 (not semis). Panathinaikos reached the CL quarters too, in 2002.

About “older” results, Panathinaikos was semi finalist in 1996, and Benfica was quarter finalist in 1995.

About domestic leagues over the last decade, Panathinaikos just won once, in 2004, and Benfica just won it once too, in 2005.

Sporting results are NOT “better” results than Panathinaikos. Sporting NEVER progressed from the CL group stages!

They were UEFA Cup beaten finalists in 2005… and Panathinaikos was quarter finalist in 2003… I don’t see a big difference- both reached the last stages, none of them won the Cup, and both lost to the eventual winner!

The results of “smaller” clubs:

Braga reached the UEFA Cup last 32 this year, and the last 16 in 2007. Has any “smaller” Greek team matched this record?

Boavista reached the CL last 16 in 2002 and the UEFA Cup semis in 2003… They were Portuguese Champions in 2001. Has any “smaller” Greek team matched this record?

Boavista has a better CL record than AEK Athens! In 18 games they picked 18 points, AEK picked the same 18 points, but in 24 games! Boavista only needed 2 participations to progress from the group stages. AEK so far has participated 4 times and NEVER progressed. In fact, they had to play 22 games to finally win the first one!!

I don’t think it is “strange” that Greek teams never won a European Cup (CL or CWC or UEFA Cup).

What is “strange” in the European Cups history is the fact that in over 50 years of competition the French teams just won 2 Cups- Marseille the 1993 CL and PSG the 1996 CWC.

France is “supposed” to be a European football giant, alongside Portugal, Spain, England, Italy, Germany and Holland.

They “should” have a record at least comparable to Portugal and Holland.

Greece “should” have a record comparable to Turkey, perhaps… So, perhaps you “should” have a UEFA Cup & Super Cup by now.

Author: Cirdan
Date: 11-03-2008, 14:11
Edited by: Cirdan
at: 11-03-2008, 14:15

However I think that a UEFA Cup win of Panathinaikos or Olympiakos would be seen as less surprising than the European Championship of Greece in 04... or any repeat of that success. So, I'd say Greek club football is respected more than Greek nt football, despite them being reigning European champions and never winning club trophies... but then of course the UEFA Cup is just a secondary competition, in the CL even the 2nd round was a big achievement.

And trophies are not everything... France are widely regarded as one of the big 5 in club football currently, above Holland and Portugal, despite winning only 2 trophies, less than Belgium and Scotland and nowhere near as many as the Dutch.

Author: vukephalas
Date: 11-03-2008, 16:06
Edited by: vukephalas
at: 11-03-2008, 16:15

[Wow…

Several false statements over there:>

In fact there is only one...

[Benfica reached the CL QUARTERS in 2006 (not semis).>

...this one. I got it wrong here.

[Panathinaikos is above Benfica in the CL all time ranking. Panathinaikos is 23rd (74 points) while Benfica is just 31st (50 points).>

CL is only 16 yrs old.
Before CL, there was a competition called European Champions Clubs Cup (ECCC).
And here is Benfica and Panathinaikos total records in both competitions:

BENFICA: P 180 W 86 D 41 L 53

Honours: Winners (2) 1961, 1962
Runners-up (5) 1963, 1965, 1968, 1988, 1990

PANATHINAIKOS: P 125 W 39 D 37 L 49

Honours: Winners (0)
Runners-up (1) 1971

There is quite a big difference I think.

[Sporting results are NOT “better” results than Panathinaikos.>

Well I would like to agree with that, but again the stats say a totally different story. So here are both clubs total records in all major UEFA competitions (ECCC, CL, ECWC, UC):

SPORTING LISBON: P 202 W 84 D 44 L 74

Honours: Winner ECWC (1) 1964
Runner-up UC (1) 2005

PANATHINAIKOS: P 211 W 75 D 53 L 83

Honours: Winner --------------
Runner-up ECCC (1) 1971

[The results of “smaller” clubs:

Braga reached the UEFA Cup last 32 this year, and the last 16 in 2007. Has any “smaller” Greek team matched this record?>

Yes, actually they have done even better!

PAOK Thessaloniki 1974 ECWC Quarter Finals (QFs)
Larissa 1985 ECWC QFs
Aris Thessaloniki 1979 UC 3rd Round-Last 16
OFI Crete 1994 UC 3rd Round-Last 16
Panionios Athens 1999 ECWC QFs

[Boavista reached the CL last 16 in 2002 and the UEFA Cup semis in 2003… They were Portuguese Champions in 2001. Has any “smaller” Greek team matched this record?>

If you compare Boavista's total record you'll see it is similar to the respective of the "smaller" Greek clubs like PAOK or Aris, which is very odd since the same comparison between the top-flight clubs lies heavily towards the Portugese side. You get the point?

BOAVISTA P 100 W 38 D 24 L 38

PAOK THESSALONIKI P 88 W 31 D 23 L 34

ARIS THESSALONIKI P 36 W 13 D 11 L 12

[Boavista has a better CL record than AEK Athens! In 18 games they picked 18 points, AEK picked the same 18 points, but in 24 games!>

That is correct. But at the same time, Boavista has a slightly worse overall record in UC than Aris Thessaloniki who are not even in the top-5 of Greek football in terms of domestic titles! You get the point?

Re: Why Greek clubs perform poorly in Europe
Author: vukephalas Date: 11-03-2008, 16:25	@ Cirdan So, I'd say Greek club football is respected more than Greek nt football, I don't think so. I made a topic about Greek club football and all I get is replies about the Greek national team!!

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 11-03-2008, 18:30
Edited by: Lyonnais
at: 11-03-2008, 18:34

The Greek national team made an outstanding achievment in 2004, that's the reason why non-Greek fans tend to focus on it.

However, I agree with Cirdan, playing Olympiakos or Panathinaikos in the European Cups is certainly seen as a more difficult task than playing the Greek National Team with the selection. It's just a feeling I have, it doesn't mean that everybody agrees.

Coming back to the topic, I would certainly not say that the Greek clubs perform poorly in Europe. This season was not that bad for the Greek clubs, wasn't it?
It obviously depends on the expectations you can have. If you expect some Greek clubs to win the Champions League, you indeed might be disappointed but keep in mind that it's an enormous achievement for every club in Europe, including for some giants who have never won it(or never won it in modern ages).

At last, just a word about Olympiakos. True that they failed on a regular basis to pass the group stage, but my team Lyon had the opportunity to play them twice and I found them pretty good and rather unlucky (especially in 2001-02 or 2000-01, the year when they lost at Heerenveen which gave us the qualification, whereas I had the feeling that Olympiakos were better than Lyon that season).

Generally speaking, it's just a personal opinion, Greek teams are seen as pretty difficult to play at home but sometimes fragile away. And if you want to pass the group stage, you need to take points in your away games.

Author: vukephalas
Date: 11-03-2008, 23:29

That was some mature and sensible approach.

Maybe I didn't make myself very clear. By stating that Greek clubs have been underperforming I do not mean their records should be any way near the Spanish, Italian, English, French or German clubs- since 1955, when the first UEFA ECCC competition took place. For God's sake!
And I never said that Greece is a mighty world- football superpower because we won the Euro 2004. I can't understand why some people came up with these attacks on the Greek national team.
All I am saying is this: From 1955 to date, Greek clubs could have done at least as well as our national team has. Or even just a little bit worse.
That is, Greek clubs should have played at least 5-6 finals and won a couple of trophies in 53 yrs playing in Europe.
Someone gave us the information that Greece stands 11th in UEFA- national team all time ranking. I believe Greece could have got a similar ranking, from 1955 to date,in club level. Instead if you check the clubs overall records in terms of W-D-L, Greece is not even in the top-20 trailing countries like Hungary, Israel, Sweden, Poland and Switcherland. With all respect to these countries, that is TOO BAD.

And there are reasons why this occurs. Some people in here spotted some of them.

Re: Why Greek clubs perform poorly in Europe
Author: dzomba Date: 12-03-2008, 08:31	@ vukephalas: All I am saying is this: From 1955 to date, Greek clubs could have done at least as well as our national team has. Or even just a little bit worse. But what i said was that Greek clubs have done much more than your national team. I see no criteria with which NT would be more succesfull than clubs. I simply don't know what are you talking about.

Author: vukephalas
Date: 12-03-2008, 12:37
Edited by: vukephalas
at: 12-03-2008, 12:42

@ Lyonnais
playing Olympiakos or Panathinaikos in the European Cups is certainly seen as a more difficult task than playing the Greek National Team

That is fairly reasonable to say if you are French, since the French National Team is clearly at higher level than the French club football.

But I think it's a different story if you are a Man Utd/Liverpool/Chelsea and England fan or a Real Madrid/Barcelona and Spain fan.
I would then definitely prefer to play Panathinaikos, Olympiacos or AEK rather than my national team playing against Greece.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 12-03-2008, 13:01

Vukephalas

Are you a school teacher by any chance?

You said in your first post that "you know some of the reasons Greek clubs fail" and now you congratulate people on "spotting" some of them.

Why don't you tell us what you think some of them are & give us some "meat" to agree or disagree with.

A few of my own thoughts.

Greek football apparently didn't introduce full-time professionalism until 1979.

This probably helps to explain why Bert's history pages show that Greece - despite their present "reputation" as a country whose big clubs at least should always be greatly feared - were never (or perhaps that should be "would never have been" as the ranking didn't always exist) higher than 16th (out of a maximum of 33) in the coefficient country ranking before 1993.

Of course there was still the odd excellent performance by Greek clubs - primarily Panathinaikos - back then & I assume that the biggest clubs were fully professional before 1979 - even if many of their league opponents weren't. But in general Greek football didn't have the professional infrastructure to produce consistently strong teams for at least the first two & a half decades of the European football era. And even after that there were a lot of countries with quite a head start.

Compare this to a country like Austria - who Greece would surely "expect" to be superior to in the modern football era & you have a professional league system dating from 1911 & clubs that were considered amongst the strongest in Europe in the pre-European competition days.

Re: Why Greek clubs perform poorly in Europe
Author: vukephalas Date: 12-03-2008, 13:02	@ Dragonite What is “strange” in the European Cups history is the fact that in over 50 years of competition the French teams just won 2 Cups- Marseille the 1993 CL and PSG the 1996 CWC. That seems very strange indeed. I think the main reason is that the best French players play abroad but still French sides should have done better really. Can the French guys give us a clue?

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 12-03-2008, 13:41
Edited by: Lyonnais
at: 12-03-2008, 14:26

Why French club football has achieved so little in European Cups history?
difficult question

- French football had a very dark period from say 1960 to 1975. Pretty long period.

- French clubs lost quite a lot of finals before at last winning one (Reims twice 56-59, St Etienne 76, Marseille 91 in C1, Monaco in C2, Bastia in C3 if my memories are correct). And after the 2 wins of OM and PSG, we began a new series of defeats (Bordeaux 96, Marseille 99 & 04 in UEFA, PSG 97 in C2, Monaco 04 in C1).
This doesn't mean that much, but still, it shows that in the last 15 ears, France have been a bit more consistent than their 2 wins.

- at last, I strongly believe that success generates success, meaning that the more you won in the past the more you believe in your chances to win again, and we all know that self-confidence is a key part of the process of winning.

I could see it with the selection. Before 1998, reaching the semi-final fundamentaly was an achievement (whatever could be the disappointment of losing the semi). Once you have the chance to know what winning is, reaching the semi-final is not anymore an achievement. At best, it's a consolation, the minimum.

The French clubs have never had the chance (the strentgh) to establish themselves as reknown powers in Europe and thus always missed that little thing that helps rising mountains when necessary.

Look at Liverpool or Milan in Europe. Those teams are not that great and their results in their domestic leagues are rather disappointing (if not very disappointing). But when those teams play in Europe, they suddenly become great. Why? Because they won so much in the past that all players wearing the red or the rossonero shirt know that they can do it again (and have to do it again). The weight of history cannot be the same for the French clubs.
Lyon certainly had very little chances to beat Manchester last month, but the truth is that nobody in the club really believed that they would be able to do it anyway. As a result, they didn't really play to win those games, they played to avoid a 7-1 like Roma last year and maybe, if everything is still fine at the 75th minute, expect a miracle to happen. That's the key difference with Liverpool or Milan (not this year unfortunately). Liverpool and Milan always believe in their chances because they know that they can do it, because their clubs already did it in the past.
I hope that's clear

- there might be other reasons but I suggest to go to the France / Germany thread. A lot of pros anc cons arguments

Author: vukephalas
Date: 12-03-2008, 15:54

@ badgerboy

About the teacher thing..that was close.
I always thought that an outsider, although he/she knows less than an insider, he/she can see things clearer and cooler -with no prejudice or emotional bias.
I wanted to see how people worldwide see this matter. I thought I could learn something from them and get some ideas. And I have. Coz this is a complex issue that goes back in time and beyond the football limits. It has certain social and geopolitical dimensions.
But let's first concentrate on football.

Firstly, it is worth noting that since Bosman's rule, i.e. during the last 10 yrs the best Greek footballers have moved abroad. That made the NT stronger, but not the clubs .
Some of the historical stuff you mention although I was aware of them I had not really thought of them. And I must say I find them pretty accurate. I also think they explain to very large extent the infamous achievements of Greek clubs in European scene.

Next to the lack of infrastructure I could add the Greek mentality issue, which I think is the root cause. It leads to lack of organisation at all levels and lack of profesionalism.
It also leads to extremely high emotional ups and downs. That is, we get very enthusiastic and build great expectations after 1-2 big wins and suddenly get very dissappointed and frustrated after 1-2 really bad results. That obviously does not help.
But then maybe I am telling you things you already know. So here is something you probably don't know, so you also don't know whether is true or not. It is the heart of the problem, the Achilles heel of Greek football. Its name is CORRUPTION.
Greek football was fully run by mobsters during the period 1997-2001, and partly from 2001-2005. The key figures, the Mitropoulos brothers, were essentially making sure that Olympiacos would clinch the championship mainly by recruiting and controlling referees. It is worth stating that Olympiacos president, Socratis Kokkalis, one of the wealthiest Greek bussinessmen, is an ex-mobster himself and has been convicted in the past.
However, in order to calm Panathinaikos(primarily) and AEK(secondarily) down these people had also to make sure that those two clubs would clinch 2nd and -sometimes- 3rd place, in order to play in the CL and not be threatened by any other club.
However corruption was not suddenly introduced in Greece in 1996. The Greek league has hardly ever been "clean" since its birth. It just got a lot worse after 1996.

To be more specific on that, if you ask Olympiacos fans they will tell you they took revenge for the 1989-1996 era when Panathinaikos and AEK sweeped all the Greek championships unfairly. And if you ask the hot blooded PAOK supporters in Northern Greece, they are still talking about a string of stolen titles back in the 70's and 80's by the big-3 Athenian teams.

Enough for now..
..to be continued

Author: aris63
Date: 14-03-2008, 12:25

voukefale and all the rest i here that panathinaikos is better team than olympiakos and yu try to find excuses hy they are not perform well in europe the reason for me is that olympiakos the last 10 years playing in cl where a yu well know most of the times start from the 4th pot and referies never playing us 50/50.We are first in greece as every year we spent money and we bring big names when panathinaikos and aek trying to get championship with goumas and georgeas if they dont spent money they will never be able to get championship

Re: Why Greek clubs perform poorly in Europe
Author: Edirnespor Date: 14-03-2008, 19:22 Edited by: Edirnespor at: 14-03-2008, 19:22	Panathinaikos and AEK both did good work in Europe in near past, but Olympiacos???????

Author: walter-wade
Date: 15-03-2008, 04:22

I think greek clubs can spend much and much more money to their football clubs instead of their basketball sections. For instance, olympiakos can transfer a star striker instead of konstantinou inorder to spend 1 milion dolar to lyn greer..or samely panathinaikos must have an excellent playmaker in order to eliminate rangers or go ahead in uefa cup instead of paying many milion dollars to sarunas jasikevicius or sani becirovic..It is obvious that the victories in europe come with big players..and greek clubs have not big players with big contracts in the national league..I think greece national league can't enter among 13-14 leagues in europe according to star players playing there..

Re: Why Greek clubs perform poorly in Europe
Author: exile Date: 15-03-2008, 22:01	Panathinaikos and AEK both did good work in Europe in near past, but Olympiacos??????? They reached the CL last 16 (at last!) - which must be seen as a good result I think. Even a 0-3 result v Chelsea isn't a bad one.