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Author: scroll
Date: 09-03-2008, 17:10
| I may be a little premature here, but cardiff are presently beating middlesbrough in the FA cup QF 2-0, should it remain this way they will be one of three non premier teams in the semi finals.
The premiership team left in is portsmouth and depending on the draw and portsmouth performance in the premier league, cardiff could be one match away from europe.
even without events elsewhere going their way, they have a realistic chance of winning the FA cup outright and qualifying.
as has been discussed on here before, the english FA has said it will not put welsh teams forward for european competitions.
however with TNS going back to its english roots, its stadium in england and the proposed name change to incorporate oswestry, we will have an english team playing europe for wales.
so should cardiff win the FA cup.they have good grounds for appealing to uefa, that a welsh team should be able to play in europe for england.
but if this happens, then we will have the crazy situation of two teams, playing for each others countries!
then we have the question, of where will the uefa coefficent points be awarded ? precedent from oswetry-tns should mean they goto england. yet co-effs points from cardiff (and other welsh teams who play in england) have in the past counted for wales and since that time they have not changed league systems.
wales are also in the process of submitting yet another plan to uefa, to get the big 3 welsh teams into europe (which cardiff oppose) and with Blatter today coming out in opposition of an all UK team at the olympics because it will threaten the home nations independent status.
i think if cardiff do qualify, i think the whole can of worms which is home nations leagues and europe will have to be adressed once and for all. |
Author: Ricardo
Date: 09-03-2008, 17:59
| I think it's no use to got to Uefa. It's the local FA's that send teams to the European competition. But the whole idea would be strange. Though I think it is very clear: If the English FA sends a welsh team to the European matches, their coefficient is for England, like with TNS it's Welsh. Teams can be seen as representatives of a 'country' Of course the question can be if you can send a team from another country... If you can, then why won't 'Holland' for instance buy Real Madrid, so they will play for Dutch coefficient. Madrid has to play in the Dutch league then of course.... This opens up possibiliteis and problems... |
Author: pit
Date: 09-03-2008, 18:40
| Let's put the discussion on more scientific base: 10-15 years ago the big 3 Welsh clubs played in English footbal pyramid and competed in Wales only in the domestic cup. At that time, if some of them qualified for Europe through the Welsh cup competition, of course their results counted towards Wales' country coefficient. Later, in 1992 if I remember correctly, the league of Wales was founded and I remember about some UEFA decision three years later that a club can compete in UEFA competition as a representative of a given country only if it is playing in the football pyramid of that country. So that is why the 3 big were excluded from Welsh cup back in 1995. @ Bert: probably you have in your archive something about that UEFA decision? It would be nice if you can help to be more precise. |
Author: TimJohnson
Date: 09-03-2008, 19:10
| Although Oswestry is now regarded territorially as being in England, when the FAW was first formed Oswestry Football Club became a member of the FAW and not the English FA. Many of the street and place names in the area are Welsh. If Cardiff do go on to win the cup they are in a big dilemma as would they go to court to be nominated by the EFA and risk being thrown out of their system?
Don't forget that for many years English border clubs like Hereford and Shrewsbury won the Welsh Cup and Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham were grateful to play in Europe as the losing finalists.
Thank goodness we now have our own league which should have happened many many years ago. |
Author: badgerboy
Date: 10-03-2008, 11:13
Edited by: badgerboy at: 10-03-2008, 11:24 | It seems to me that the same rule which prevented Shrewsbury etc. entering Europe if they won the Welsh Cup would also prevent Cardiff City from entering if they won the English FA Cup.
One additional point is that - given their current financial plight (£24m in debt - although there is a court case pending to settle when this debt is actually due to be paid - and almost certain administration should they lose the case) - Welsh or not, Cardiff might struggle to get a UEFA licence.
Should they happen to win the FA Cup (still two games away not one - since Portsmouth wont finish 4th in the Premier League) and either fail to be nominated by the English FA - or fail to get a licence - I'd be interested to know if they'd be replaced by the losing finalist or the next best team in the league.
Edit: OK - certainly in the latter case it's the cup loser according to the regulations.
Scroll wrote:
"yet co-effs points from cardiff (and other welsh teams who play in england) have in the past counted for wales and since that time they have not changed league systems".
But since that time Wales have formed a league system of their own. That's the difference.
Before, Welsh clubs were in the same position as Vaduz of Liechtenstein are now. They didn't have the option of playing in a league system in their own country because such a system didn't exist. |
Author: eoinh
Date: 10-03-2008, 11:36
| Derry play in the League of Ireland, often represent Ireland in europe but play and are based in Derry which is in Northern Ireland. Also, its looking increasingly likely that there will be a united irish league in the next few seasons but the two different FAs will still exist as will the two national teams. |
Author: scroll
Date: 10-03-2008, 14:33
| draw for the semis has just been made, cardiff have been given the easist semi-final against barnsley, which they should be favourite to win.
while portsmouth, have drawn the hardest match against west brom, which increases the posibility of them not making the final. |
Author: Kaiser
Date: 10-03-2008, 14:35
| My predictions:
Barnsley v Cardiff 1-1 (penalties) West Bromwich v Portsmouth 2-0 |
Author: executor
Date: 10-03-2008, 14:59
| {i>Cardiff have been given the easist semi-final against Barnsley, which they should be favourite to win.{/i>
Weren't Chelsea and Liverpool thinking the same? |
Author: Edgar
Date: 10-03-2008, 15:26
| @eoinh
Could you please tell us more about the United Irish football league on Forum 2? Thanks! |
Author: duncshine
Date: 11-03-2008, 13:43
| Just to confirm, the English FA have stated that Cardiff City will not be put forward to the UEFA Cup even if they do win the FA Cup.
Should they win it, the FA have not made clear whether the runners up or the next placed Premier League team will go through.
See Sky Sports Article
Cheers |
Author: racing
Date: 12-03-2008, 18:54
| couldn't cardiff play a reserve team in the league of wales? it would probably still be good enough to win it every year?
that way they could qualify for the CL every year? or would it be illegal to compete in two different leagues in two different countries at the same time? |
Author: TimJohnson
Date: 12-03-2008, 20:58
| Platini has now told the English FA that if you allow Cardiff and the other clubs into your competition you must allow them to represent you in UEFA competitions if they win the cup due to the right of fair play, You cannot allow them to enter with no reward for winning. No idea what the EFA will now do although I do not think they will be very happy. |
Author: scroll
Date: 12-03-2008, 22:00
| "couldn't cardiff play a reserve team in the league of wales? it would probably still be good enough to win it every year?
that way they could qualify for the CL every year? or would it be illegal to compete in two different leagues in two different countries at the same time?"
at the moment the welsh FA are in the process of proposing this plan to uefa, but its likely to turned down like all of their other schemes to get the big 3 into europe.
not only is it unfair to the current welsh premier team,it will be unfair to english teams aswell because the extra revenue gained from europe might be enough to strengten the cardiff squad enough for them to make it into the premier and stay there. thus costing an english team a place, while exploiting a revenue stream not open to the weaker teams in the premier who never get the chance to play in europe. |
Author: scroll
Date: 12-03-2008, 22:09
| "Platini has now told the English FA that if you allow Cardiff and the other clubs into your competition you must allow them to represent you in UEFA competitions if they win the cup due to the right of fair play, You cannot allow them to enter with no reward for winning. No idea what the EFA will now do although I do not think they will be very happy."
i dont think what platini or uefa says counts for anything if its not in the rules. english FA in the past has shown that if there is an anomoly in the rules, it will ignore uefa's "advice". e.g. the liverpool situation a few years ago.
thats why i said one way or another if cardiff do "qualify" for europe, one way or another this whole issue which has been discussed theoretically many times will have to be resolved once and for all.
my prediction if cardiff do win the cup is.
uefa tell english FA to let cardiff in
english FA ignores uefa and nominates their own teams (i.e. the runner up).
uefa then let cardiff in anyway
uefa finally changes/clarifies the rules to prevent it happening again. |
Author: amirbachar
Date: 12-03-2008, 22:18
| "i dont think what platini or uefa says counts for anything if its not in the rules. english FA in the past has shown that if there is an anomoly in the rules, it will ignore uefa's "advice". e.g. the liverpool situation a few years ago."
I think the rules are very clear - if a team qualifies for european cup, it has the right to participate. It's like the FA can't prevent the champions from going to the champions league. I don't really see an issue here. There is no need for special rules for Welsh teams in England's cup. |
Author: scroll
Date: 12-03-2008, 23:41
| "I think the rules are very clear - if a team qualifies for european cup, it has the right to participate. It's like the FA can't prevent the champions from going to the champions league. I don't really see an issue here. There is no need for special rules for Welsh teams in England's cup."
if the rules are that clear then this topic wouldnt have been debated many times over on this board and on others.
the english FA intrepretation of the rules are that they dont have to nominate a welsh club if they dont want to, uefa's may well be different.
but remember the last time the FA and uefa disagreed about about european places, the FA won.
no matter what uefa says, the emglish FA have already said they are not budge on this matter. |
Author: blue_shark
Date: 13-03-2008, 09:15
| i must admit i haven't read all the posts,so if this has been told before sorry. someone wrote: a club can compete in UEFA competition as a representative of a given country only if it is playing in the football pyramid of that country.
wrong! what about Liechtenstein? the clubs play in the Swiss leagues, with FC Vaduz in the second one. yeah, i know Liechtenstein doesn't matter, but a rule shouldn't have exceptions. cause if you do have exceptions when you only have 54 members, than why have any rules at all? |
Author: mjwillan
Date: 13-03-2008, 10:09
| Why is UEFA (through Platini) changing its mind? When the Welsh League was formed, the Welsh FA tried to force the Welsh clubs to leave the English league and join the Welsh league, the clubs didn't want to because of the money they'd lose and eventually UEFA brokered a deal meaning that they could stay in the English league, but not play in the Welsh cups and not play in Europe. They were given the option to leave the English league at any time in the future and so far they haven't. |
Author: cinebelul
Date: 13-03-2008, 11:01
Edited by: cinebelul at: 13-03-2008, 11:08 | This story is the same like FC Vaduz playing EC for Switzerland I think even if they win the cup or get EC-spot from the league, they don?t have the right to play for the other country too and UEFA wouldn?t allow this (they already play UC every season for Liechtenstein). Cardiff have to enter in the welsh championship if they want EC participations |
Author: badgerboy
Date: 13-03-2008, 11:30
| Well I must admit I'm slightly confused now.
I always thought it was a UEFA rule which said that Welsh clubs couldn't qualify for Europe through English competitions. A "penalty clause" for their opting to remain in the more financially lucrative English system once the Welsh league option became available.
If it's merely an English FA rule then I'm with Cardiff. I still hope they don't win the Cup (I'm for a Barnsley - West Brom final) but if they do they should get the European spot and the FA should change their rules without anyone needing to go to court. |
Author: scroll
Date: 13-03-2008, 11:53
| "Why is UEFA (through Platini) changing its mind? When the Welsh League was formed, the Welsh FA tried to force the Welsh clubs to leave the English league and join the Welsh league, the clubs didn't want to because of the money they'd lose and eventually UEFA brokered a deal meaning that they could stay in the English league, but not play in the Welsh cups and not play in Europe. They were given the option to leave the English league at any time in the future and so far they haven't."
exactly, the welsh teams play in england for the money but on the understanding of that there is a price to pay for this.
take the FA cup for example, which I'm guessing is the richest domestic cup competition in the world.the figures I read the other day were that in terms of prize money, cardiff has earned £1,000,000 for reaching the semis, will have another £1,000,000 for reaching the final and another £1,000,000 on top for winning. this is on top of prize for earlier rounds and on top of associated sales, e.g. tickets, tv money, merchandise. In total cardiff are looking a potentital pay day of upto £10,000,000 for their FA cup run.
a few years ago, when middlesbrough were beaten in the uefa cup final and west ham beaten in the FA cup final.the final prize money table for the year had west ham in 5th and middlesbrough in 6th behind the big 4 who played in the champions league.
thus the FA cup is is at least as lucrative as the UEFA cup, if not more.if welsh teams want access to this, they have to accept there is a price to pay.
citing other examples as precedents is useless they are all exceptional cases, either for politicsl reasons eg. derry (same as why israel is a member uefa),border cases-historical(oswestry-tns) lack of a league & small country (vaduz).
the cardiff case should it happen, will be the first time that a large team, from a largish country,well away from the border with its own league system but who voluntarily play in another country for purely financial reasons has qualified for europe. |
Author: amirbachar
Date: 13-03-2008, 13:06
| "This story is the same like FC Vaduz playing EC for Switzerland I think even if they win the cup or get EC-spot from the league, they don?t have the right to play for the other country too and UEFA wouldn?t allow this (they already play UC every season for Liechtenstein). Cardiff have to enter in the welsh championship if they want EC participations"
I don't think this is the same situation - here Cardiff play ONLY in the English pyramid and therefore it is like any other English club. They pay a price - it is really hard for them to qualify for Europe. If they would have played both competitions then it would be a totally different story. |
Author: MTC
Date: 13-03-2008, 13:26
| Liechtenstein's situation is the same as Wales' was before the League of Wales. I think Vaduz or other Liechtenstein clubs would (and should) be allowed to qualify for the Champions League through the Swiss league if they were to finish high enough, as they have no Liechtenstein league to play in. The Swiss league is effectively a Switzerland & Liechtenstein league.
Cardiff, Swansea, etc. on the other hand, do have the option to play in the Welsh league, they know this, and not playing in Europe is the price they pay for playing in the wrong league. Welsh teams in English leagues should never be allowed to qualify for Europe through English competitions. |
Author: badgerboy
Date: 13-03-2008, 15:02
| Another way of looking at it.
Presumably Platini is as anti-"Old Firm buggering off from the Scottish league & joining the English Premier League" - as Sepp Blatter but in a way he's condoning the big Welsh clubs doing the same thing.
OK - so the big Welsh clubs have always been part of the English system and the Scottish clubs haven't - but still... |
Author: exile
Date: 13-03-2008, 15:30
| If Cardiff are being excluded because there is a Welsh Cup for them to play in - shouldn't Derry City also be excluded from Europe because there's a (Northern) Irish Cup for them to compete in (and qualify for Europe from).
I assume Vaduz WOULD qualify for the CL or UC if they qualified via league position - but not by winning the Swiss Cup (not sure if they compete in this!)
Monaco do of course qualify via French competitions - but is there a Monagasque league? I guess there probably is even if it's at amateur level!
I've long ago given up trying to find any consistency in these rules. It seems very much to depend on the attitude of the relevant FAs. |
Author: MTC
Date: 13-03-2008, 16:03
| Derry City's situation is different because of the political problems and violent fans when they played in Northern Irish competitions, they were forced to move from Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland because of these problems.
AS Monaco's situation is different because Monaco's FA is not affiliated to UEFA or FIFA (but yes, they do have a league).
Cardiff, Swansea, etc have none of those excuses to use, their reasons for staying in England are purely based on financial benefit, which makes their situation completely different from Derry City, AS Monaco and FC Vaduz.
Also, as far as I can tell, clubs from Liechtenstein do not compete in the Swiss Cup. |
Author: scroll
Date: 13-03-2008, 18:14
| heres the latest
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/cardiff_city/7294461.stm
The Football Association is to review the rule preventing Cardiff qualifying for Europe were they to win the FA Cup. Under FA rules, City, who face Barnsley in the semi-finals, would not qualify for the Uefa Cup as Welsh clubs only qualify through their own competitions.
Uefa president Michel Platini promised to intervene to help Cardiff and the FA is now reviewing its own rule.
"The FA is considering its position on European qualification for the winners of the FA Cup," said a spokesman.
"Historically, the understanding of the FA has been that Welsh clubs were ineligible for the Uefa Cup should they have won the FA Cup.
"The question of eligibility for Welsh clubs has not arisen for many years so it is only now appropriate for us to look at the issue afresh.
"At this time, there has been no definitive decision taken as far as this year's FA Cup is concerned.
"The FA has contacted Uefa and the Football Association of Wales [FAW> to ascertain their views. We are aware of the comments expressed by Uefa president Michel Platini this week."
In the most open FA Cup for years, Cardiff play Barnsley in the semis, with the winners due to meet either Portsmouth or West Brom in the final.
"If England don't do anything we will," Platini told BBC Sport on Wednesday.
"We have spoken to the FAW and we have to respect the result on the field.
"I think it is not normal that if they win then they're out. That's not natural and not so good."
Cardiff chairman Peter Ridsdale has hinted the club would challenge the English FA's current rules and regulations.
Cardiff could cite several examples to support their case including:
Derry City - Based in Northern Ireland but since 1985 have been playing in the Republic of Ireland's competitions and are regarded as a Republic of Ireland club. When they qualify for Europe, they play as a Republic of Ireland team. AS Monaco - Based in Monaco, where they are the only side, but play in the French League. Berwick Rangers - Based in England but play in the Scottish League and would be accepted as a Scottish club if they qualified for Europe. When the FAW formed the League of Wales in 1992, Cardiff, Swansea City and Wrexham all decided not to join, choosing to remain in the English Football League.
As a result, Uefa decided the clubs would no longer be allowed to compete in the Welsh FA Cup and therefore would not be allowed to qualify for Europe that way.
The FAW agreed with that decision and Uefa take the view that because they play in English competitions, they are English clubs. |
Author: mjwillan
Date: 13-03-2008, 20:00
| There is a big difference between Cardiff (& Swansea/Wrexham and the non-league welsh clubs in England) and Berwick Rangers/TNS is that Cardiff City are in the wrong FA for their league. Berwick are members of the Scottish FA and TNS are members of the Welsh FA, presumably the English FA could ask them to join as they are in England, but this hasn't happened. I don't know about the Derry City situation.
I want Cardiff to win the FA Cup so we can see what happens!! |
Author: scroll
Date: 13-03-2008, 22:21
| "There is a big difference between Cardiff (& Swansea/Wrexham and the non-league welsh clubs in England) and Berwick Rangers/TNS is that Cardiff City are in the wrong FA for their league. Berwick are members of the Scottish FA and TNS are members of the Welsh FA, presumably the English FA could ask them to join as they are in England, but this hasn't happened. I don't know about the Derry City situation."
i think that is a subtle but important point about all those cases above, that those teams are indeed members of the FA's that they play in, including derry.but wales isn't.
the point above actually raises the issue of who gets the co-effs points again, if wales are members of the welsh FA, but the others mentioned above are members of the FA of the countries they play in.
the "welsh anomaly" nearly cost AFC wimbledon promotion last year, due to them transferring a player from one of the welsh clubs and not getting international clearance. an easy mistake to make if your transferring a player from another team within your own pyramid.
they were deducted the points for every game that player played in (think about 18) which in the end was reduced on appeal to 3 pts
"I want Cardiff to win the FA Cup so we can see what happens!!"
I do aswell this going to be interesting!! |
Author: Edgar
Date: 19-03-2008, 10:26
| Cardiff City rekindle love affair with English -> TimesOnline. |
Author: Todor
Date: 19-03-2008, 10:55
| There is a difference between Vaduz and Cardiff. Vaduz play in two pyramids but they chose the Lichtenstein's as a route to the European competitions , so they are not eligible through the Swiss one. If Vaduz decide not to qualify through Lichtenstein Cup then they will be eligible to participate for Switzerland if the Swiss FA agree , and they will be counted as a Swiss team. Cardiff has no other route to Europe besides the English domestic competitions. When the Welsh league started Cardiff had already been part of the English League for 70+ years , so they elected to stay. This is the difference between them and Rangers/Celtic wanting to join Premiership. For me besides some vague geographical reasons , Cardiff , Swansea , Wrexham and the rest are English teams. |
Author: executor
Date: 19-03-2008, 11:31
| {i>For me besides some vague geographical reasons , Cardiff , Swansea, Wrexham and the rest are English teams.{/i>
For you they may be English, but it seems that Cardiff consideres themselves Welsh (switching to English only when it suites them - as results from the article posted by Edgar). I've always disliked entities that play at both ends. And since Cardiff were informed at the beginning of the tournament that they won't be allowed to represent England and they were OK with that....the only correct decision, case they win the Cup, is to let an English team represent England. They play in English pyramid just for money, knowing European games are out of reach. Plus it wouldn't be fair to change the rules during the competition, would it? |
Author: Edgar
Date: 07-04-2008, 12:17
| Cardiff did reach the final and UEFA could give them a wild card for the UC if they win the FA Cup -> BBC. |
Author: scroll
Date: 07-04-2008, 16:34
| http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/cardiff_city/7294461.stm
Cardiff City may be given a wildcard into Europe if they win the FA Cup.
Under current Football Association rules, the Bluebirds would not qualify for the Uefa Cup as Welsh clubs only qualify through their own competitions.
But Cardiff, who face Portsmouth on 17 May after beating Barnsley in the last four, may be given a lifeline by Uefa.
"Our president has asked the executive committee to look at the possibility of a wildcard," Uefa spokesman William Gaillard told BBC Sport.
I think that seels the FA's psotion now that effectively they can can an extra team in europe like they did over the liverpool affair.
question is, if uefa do this, who will get the coefficient points ? wales or england ? |
Author: badgerboy
Date: 07-04-2008, 16:57
| My goodness this is a popular topic.
I think it's being discussed on three or four different threads at the moment. Though this is the most logical one.
So - my post from the Domestic Cups thread in response to a similar question about coefficients:
"Maybe they wouldn't count them at all?
They play their matches & then go home!
I suspect the English FA are going to end up looking pretty bad - to non-English fans at least - again.
The English FA already said they would "review the situation" themselves & I would have hoped that they would change the rules before the final to allow Cardiff into Europe. But now that UEFA have stated they might give Cardiff a wildcard, the English FA surely wouldn't be doing the best job for their clubs if they changed their own rules & possibly denied one of their clubs a place in Europe?" |
Author: amirbachar
Date: 07-04-2008, 21:04
| I'll write what I said again too: Also now it is almost sure that the FA will decide to keep them from being in the UC (so they will have one more team in europe). I believe UEFA will give them a WC for the 1st Q round and they will have the seeding of an English club and their points will count for England's rankings (so they might have 10 [I wrote 9 originally> teams next year - 7 regular, Cardiff, IT, FP). |
Author: martinjt
Date: 07-04-2008, 22:38
| I'm just pleased Portsmouth are going to hammer Cardiff so the question won't have to be asked! |
Author: MalcolmW
Date: 07-04-2008, 22:52
| From The FA websute today:
Following Sunday's FA Cup Semi-Final, The FA has been discussing the issue of Cardiff City entering the UEFA Cup next season should they win The FA Cup.
We will also continue to discuss this with The FA of Wales and UEFA.
At this stage we have not ruled out Cardiff City being entered into Europe via The FA Cup should they win it.
However, further conversations need to take place but we would expect to have final clarification on this before the end of the month - well before The Final takes place on 17 May. |
Author: Ricardo
Date: 08-04-2008, 10:42
| Should Cardiff get a wildcard, then I expect them to be a Welsh candidate. I would find it very strange if they would now suddenly be allowed to play for England if first the FA has denied them although they have won the FA Cup. I still see the European Competitions as from teams representing an FA. So how can an FA first deny a team - though following the normal qualification rules by winning the FA Cup, and the allowing them if they get a wild card? No. Also this is kind of weird as a team would be invited on personal title.
Of course we have another sample of this combined playing for association: Vaduz. who are on the edge of being promoted to the Swiss first league. What if they qualify next year by being 3rd in the Swiss league and (surprisingly) lose the Liechtenstein Cup: will they get a wildcard too? |
Author: martinjt
Date: 08-04-2008, 19:17
| In the same way the Welsh FA would deny Shrewsbury, Hereford European football when these teams won their national cup. |
Author: scroll
Date: 08-04-2008, 19:49
| former FAW chief opposes cardiff's entry to europe even with a wildcard.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/cardiff_city/7335455.stm
Former FAW secretary Alun Evans claims Uefa's plans to allow Cardiff to enter Europe if they win the FA Cup could damage the future of Welsh football.
Cup winners usually qualify for Europe but under current rules Cardiff cannot as they are classed as a Welsh club.
However, Uefa are considering handing them a wildcard entry should they beat Portsmouth in the final on 17 May.
Evans says this will damage FAW plans to help Welsh clubs qualify for Europe through Welsh leagues and competitions.
"I think it's a short-term gain for a long-term loss," explained Evans, who outlined plans for the future development of Welsh football in a strategic document he presented to the Welsh FA earlier this year.
"I think now is the time for us to focus on getting the Welsh clubs playing in Europe on a regular basis and that can only be done by acceptance that playing in Welsh competitions is acceptable to Uefa.
606: DEBATE Should Cardiff be allowed to qualify for the Uefa Cup? "If Cardiff were to represent England, as they effectively would to all intents and purposes, and certainly in the view of the other European nations, then I think we would have problem persuading Uefa to revisit the problems of Welsh football.
"I'm not wishing to deny Cardiff City, in fact I would be quite happy to see them play in Europe. I'm just saying these are the disadvantages of taking this quick fix."
In his document entitled 'FAW Strategic Plan 2007-2012', Evans called for Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham to be permitted to field teams in the Welsh Premier League.
He suggested the three exiled clubs be allowed to continue to play in the English Football League but field second teams in the Welsh Premier.
Assuming these second teams finished high enough in the Welsh Premier to qualify for European competitions, the trio could then provide more powerful Welsh representation in Europe than is currently provided by Welsh Premier clubs.
I think it's a short-term gain for a long-term loss
Former FAW secretary Alun Evans But Evans says if Cardiff are allowed to play in Europe by qualifying by winning an English competition, like the FA Cup, it will put paid to these plans and effectively hinder the long-term development of Welsh football.
Uefa rules stopped Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham, plus Colwyn Bay, Merthyr and Newport, from using Welsh competitions to reach Europe when they continued in the English League rather than join the League of Wales when it was established.
Under normal circumstances the FA Cup winners qualify for the Uefa Cup, but Cardiff's problem is that as a Welsh club - although playing in the English league pyramid - they are not affiliated to the English FA.
The Football Association says it will not nominate Cardiff as the Welsh club as a 'guest' team.
However, Uefa president Michel Platini has already expressed his support for Cardiff if they win the Cup, with Uefa spokesman William Gaillard reiterating that support on Monday. |
Author: scroll
Date: 12-04-2008, 21:45
| they are wanting to have the welsh anthem played now!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7343735.stm
"The Welsh sports minister has called for the Welsh national anthem to be played before Cardiff City play in the FA Cup final.
Rhodri Glyn Thomas wants "common sense" to prevail and hopes the FA will allow Land of My Fathers to be played alongside God Save The Queen"
another case of cardiff wanting their cake and eating it, I hope the FA tells them to get stuffed and in the unlikely event cardiff is promoted this season that the premier league refuses to elect them aswell. |
Author: eldaec
Date: 13-04-2008, 15:09
| This Welsh national anthem thing annoys me.
Why would they play the Welsh anthem since they don't play the English one. |
Author: martinjt
Date: 13-04-2008, 22:23
| No way should that be allowed. They're a club team, not the Welsh national team. |
Author: blue_shark
Date: 14-04-2008, 14:35
| @eldaec
they do play God Save the Queen before the final. actually, all around the world they play the national anthem before cup finals. but the FAW has to remember that the english national anthem is played mainly not because the teams are english , but because the FA is the organizer. they only play it before the final because that is the only game throughout the competition that is organized by the FA and not by one of the involved clubs. |
Author: Ricardo
Date: 14-04-2008, 21:35
| Vaduz is now clear ahead(Bellinzona lost) in Swiss Challenge league, can they promote to hte Swiis top league?? |
Author: Edgar
Date: 15-04-2008, 06:56
| Yes, they can. They lost the promotion playoffs in 2004 and 2005. |
Author: MarbellaBlue
Date: 16-04-2008, 18:22
| Simple question
Should I be supporting Portsmouth in the league and hoping they get 5th?
Would we then qualify as runners up at worst in the Cup Final |
Author: badgerboy
Date: 16-04-2008, 18:40
| No point in that.
Despite some quotes I saw from Dave Jones a Cup losing finalist only gets the European spot if the Cup winner has qualified for the Champions League.
Otherwise the Cup Winner still takes the Cup Winner spot & the remaining spot goes to the next team in the league. |
Author: MarbellaBlue
Date: 16-04-2008, 18:46
| that's what i thought but on our messageboard somebody has phoned the FA and they've said we would, i still think you are correct |
Author: MalcolmW
Date: 16-04-2008, 22:45
| Winning the FA Cup achieves the first UEFA Cup place. League position comes next, but with one place reserved for the League Cup winners (not runners-up). If the FA Cup Winners are CL qualified then the FA Cup runners-up qualify, but not as the first placed team in the UEFA entry. If Portsmouth win the final Cardiff cannot qualify. (Dave Jones is a better coach than administrator) |
Author: Edgar
Date: 17-04-2008, 08:40
| Cardiff 'earn European approval'-> BBC.
Well, go Pompey! |
Author: eldaec
Date: 19-04-2008, 02:11
| blue shark,
You seem to be under the misapprehension that God Save the Queen is the English national anthem?
It isn't. |
Author: Laudrup1
Date: 23-04-2008, 15:18
| I really feel I have to say my thoughts on this.
Cardiff, should they win the Cup, should be told to take a running jump as far as Uefa participation is concenred.
The rules were in place at the START of the competition they entered. They knew the rules and should be made to stick bye them.
Now is not the time to be arguing for a change in the setup.
They were happy enough to just be playing in the English leagues and making more money then. Now they want even more.
The national anthem thing just makes it more ridiculous. It's not the 'teams anthem' being played but that of the nation the competition is part of.
I've sympathy for Cardiff fans to an extent but it's their bosses that are at fault. |
Author: Overgame
Date: 23-04-2008, 15:42
| Laudrup1 : there is a rule ? Then what ? If the rule is 'illegal', shouldn't it be changed ? Frankly, the FA accepted Cardiff as an club from England, I don't see why they should get a different treatment. Just because they're based in Wales ?
And Cardiff never asked to get the welsh anthem in the final, a minister did (the club even said that they don't want the welsh anthem), so, please, get some informations before posting nonsense.
And, finally, Israel is playing in Europe, and they can qualify for the UEFA/FIFA competition as an european. For me, Cardiff's case is similar. |
Author: badgerboy
Date: 23-04-2008, 16:21
| Overgame
Not really. Israel has to play in Europe because most of their neighbours would refuse to play them. Cardiff would presumably be "welcomed" into the Welsh League but choose to take the cash they get from playing in England.
I'm still on their side in this - hopefully academic argument - though.
I'm really not sure I should be allowed to call myself a Brighton fan this year as I want Portsmouth to win the FA Cup (though I don't care that much) and wouldn't mind seeing our other "hated rivals" Crystal Palace go up via the Championship play-offs.
It looks to me as if pretty much everyone (FA, UEFA - if not all fans) is saying yes to Cardiff now anyway. If it really mattered I bet there would actually be some confusion as to who exactly (FA or UEFA) was saying "no" in the first place... I'm not 100% convinced that the "rules changed" more that noone really understood what they were! |
Author: bert.kassies
Date: 23-04-2008, 18:53
| Laudrup1 said: "The rules were in place at the START of the competition they entered. They knew the rules and should be made to stick bye them."
Hmm, I remember the case with European cup holder Liverpool not being qualified by domestic league position. The rules were clear. But the English FA did not show any hesitation to convince UEFA to change the rules on the fly. |
Author: Overgame
Date: 23-04-2008, 19:06
| Ok badgerboy, so i'll change my example and talk about ...... Australia, Azebaidjan or Kazakhstan
You got my point : nationality has little to do with football, and the rules should be the same for everyeone. If the winner of the FA Cup is awarded by a spot for the UC, then should it be from England, Walles or Mars, it shouldn't change :p |
Author: KRBY
Date: 23-04-2008, 23:35
| I agree Overgame. If a spot is given for FA Cup winner, it must be same treatment for all teams. Since they play for FA Cup, nationality doesn't matter. Even if it is member of FAW, if FA didn't want them to represent them in Europe, they shouldn't allow them to compete in english competitions. If they beat Portsmouth, it means they deserve to play, and is unfair portsmouth to compete.
However, I want to mention something I discovered tonight, searching in rsssf about teams playing in wrong country. The same which happens now, that a welsh team to win the English Cup and not to participate in Europe, it happened the same for two english teams winning the Welsh Cup and they were not accepted because they were NOT members of FA Wales. Those rules already happened when all welsh teams were playing in English pyramid and had the rules, an english team not to represent wales and the opposite.
More exactly, Shrewsbury Town won the Welsh Cup in 1977, 79, 84, 85 and Hereford United in 1990. All of those teams were english and not members of FA of Wales. After winning those cup, they didn't compete in Europe the following year rather than the Cup Final loosers!!! Check the [http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/crossborder.html#4engw> and then check who represented Wales the following years in Cup Winners Cup.
If Cardiff will not play in Europe, be sure they are treated the same as the English teams which won the Welsh Cup. Personally, I support the winner of both competitions to enter the Europe, however think how unfair those english teams were treated by Welsh. |
Author: Edgar
Date: 24-04-2008, 07:50
| Overgame, I think you're wrong.
For example, Mexico playing in the Copa America. Even if they win it, they will not represent CONMEBOL at the Confederations Cup.
The same for Mexican teams playing the Copa Libertadores - even if they win it, they will not represent CONMEBOL at the Club World Cup.
It's the same with Cardiff IMO. They are members of FAW. |
Author: badgerboy
Date: 24-04-2008, 11:13
| KRBY
I remember being really annoyed at the time that Shrewsbury Town - a team I liked for some reason (I remember them knocking Manchester City out of the FA Cup) weren't allowed to play in Europe.
The difference with the current situation is that those teams could have - in theory - still qualified for Europe through the English competitions. They just chose to play in the Welsh Cup as an "extra" competition.
The Welsh clubs playing in England aren't permitted to enter the Welsh Cup - so don't have an alternative route into Europe. |
Author: Overgame
Date: 24-04-2008, 15:45
| Cardiff doesn't play in the Welsh League or Cup. Mexico is different, they're playing 2 cups.
Again, i don't see why Cardiff should be denied in the UC, they don't have anything special like playing in 2 leagues or cups from different countries. |
Author: MTC
Date: 24-04-2008, 16:54
| badgerboy wrote: The Welsh clubs playing in England aren't permitted to enter the Welsh Cup - so don't have an alternative route into Europe.
They would be permitted to enter the Welsh Cup if they were playing in the Welsh league, so they do have an alternative route into Europe and they should take it - they'd probably get to play in Europe every year. |
Author: Edgar
Date: 25-04-2008, 07:29
| It's very simple then. Quit the FAW, join the FA. But we can't do that, can we? We're proud of being Welsh, but choose to play with the bloody English for the money. |
Author: martinjt
Date: 25-04-2008, 20:01
| 'I remember being really annoyed at the time that Shrewsbury Town - a team I liked for some reason (I remember them knocking Manchester City out of the FA Cup) weren't allowed to play in Europe.
The difference with the current situation is that those teams could have - in theory - still qualified for Europe through the English competitions. They just chose to play in the Welsh Cup as an "extra" competition.
The Welsh clubs playing in England aren't permitted to enter the Welsh Cup - so don't have an alternative route into Europe.'
Badgerboy, if this was the 1980s and Cardiff City had been knocked out of the Welsh Cup, but had qualified to play in the English Cup final...
do you honestly think that they wouldn't be demanding a place in Europe, if they won the English cup? |
Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 25-04-2008, 20:05
| I'm certain they also would have demanded it back then, but the English FA would have had a very good reason not to send them to the CWC, since they played also in the Welsh Cup in the same season. |
Author: martinjt
Date: 25-04-2008, 21:24
| Seems if they're daft enough to play the Welsh national anthem at the English cup final, they probably would have succumbed to a Welsh club's demands then.
If being 'walked all over' was a sport, England would be world champions! |
Author: MalcolmW
Date: 27-04-2008, 21:53
| The real reason why the FA (at least initially) would not allow Cardiff to qualify for the UEFA Cup was underlined on Saturday. Cardiff's Darren Purse was sent off in an English League match against Burnley. But his disciplinary hearing, which will determine whether or not he can be available for the FA Cup Final, will be decided by the Welsh FA.
To put it in terms readily clear to Platini, if a Monaco player is sent off in the French League the French FA determines the sanction imposed. This is not the case for Cardiff or Swansea (or Wrexham, now fallen from the Football League structure after next week). |
Author: martinjt
Date: 27-04-2008, 22:48
| Should be time now for a new Welsh Premiership. It's a bigger country than Northern Ireland and lots of other European nations, whose clubs don't have the opportunity to play in someone else's league. Perhaps a 10 club premiership, with six clubs from the English system (Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham, Merthyr Tydfil, Newport, Colwyn Bay) plus the best four from the current Welsh league. It's true that teams in the current Welsh league get very low attendances, but I'm sure the presence of the 'old firm' of Cardiff and Swansea would boost them. Eventually there would be a Welsh league not far behind the Scottish league. Maybe I should suggest this to the Welsh FA? |
Author: amirbachar
Date: 28-04-2008, 05:21
| "The real reason why the FA (at least initially) would not allow Cardiff to qualify for the UEFA Cup was underlined on Saturday. Cardiff's Darren Purse was sent off in an English League match against Burnley. But his disciplinary hearing, which will determine whether or not he can be available for the FA Cup Final, will be decided by the Welsh FA."
Why does the FA allow teams to play in the English pyramid but to be in the Welsh FA? And how the hell FIFA and UEFA agree to it? |
Author: Edgar
Date: 28-04-2008, 16:03
| @martinjt
No need to suggest that - they have been trying to get Cardiff & Co. to play in the WPL for 15 years. They even have a plan to allow the reserve teams of Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham in the WPL - and if they qualify for Europe, the first team would play. However, with the Welsh team now able to qualify through English competition, that plan received a killer blow. The WPL will have only 10 teams from 2010-2011.
@amirbachar
For historical reasons. |
Author: MalcolmW
Date: 29-04-2008, 23:30
| Lo and behold - the FA of Wales have overturned the suspension, and so decided that Cardiff's captain can play in the FA Cup Final. PS Andrew Cole had 10 stitches for a leg wound as a result of the tackle which led to the sending off. |
Author: amirbachar
Date: 30-04-2008, 00:26
| Did they try to become a member of the FA? If not they shouldn't be allowed to play in UC cup as an Engish team (if UEFA want, they could give them a WC to represent Wales). And I think UEFA should make teams to be in the FA they play in. |
Author: Edgar
Date: 30-04-2008, 07:24
| I don't have an official link (neither do I have the time to search for one now), but AFAIK, the FA membership is based on location, not competition (Cardiff are based in Wales, thus they belong to the FAW). Cardiff have never tried to join the FA. Besides, as I mentioned before, they're pretty proud of their... Welshness Flags of Saint David can often be seen flown at Ninian Park, with the slogan "Welsh not British". |
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