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33% country coefficient will be changed to 20% ?
Author: Xpertus Date: 04-03-2008, 17:18	Kaiser's thread about this issue is missing. The topic is about whether only 20% of a countries coefficient will be added to the club coefficient rather than 33% as it's the case at the moment. Uefa mentioned there was a majority in favour of 20%. So does anyone know when this change will happen?

Author: badgerboy
Date: 04-03-2008, 18:59

The old topic was archived .

A shame as it was only revived a few days ago when the news of the 20% discussions broke.

As to when this is to be implemented. Well I don't suppose it's certain it will be yet. A majority of the European Club Association are apparently in favour but I'm not sure that necessarily means that the Executive Committee (who I assume have to approve any such change) will be too. I'm also not sure how "official" the European Club Association's vote on the issue was.

It seems from the descriptions of meetings in UEFA direct that the Club Association (and previously the European Club Forum) hold a lot of pretty informal group discussions and I don't know if "majority in favour" refers to a formal vote after a lot of these discussions or the general initial consensus after the issue was discussed briefly.

That said - I would have thought UEFA would look to implement any proposed changes to coincide with the format changes for the 2009-10 season. Hopefully at the same time they will get round to booting Cup losers out of the UEFA Cup - a move that I'm sure I read that UEFA - or the Club Forum or someone significant - were in favour of seeing happen years ago.

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 04-03-2008, 20:40

I agree with badgerboy. It's a shame that such a topic was archived. But this forum code does not look at any revival history, but only if a topic was started more than a month ago at the beginning of each month. So, on this forum it is not a good idea to revive a topic.

With regard to the subject I do feel that it will be hard for the Executive Committee to ignore a signal from this newly formed ECA. Even if the vote was not official. What I like most is the proposal to count qualifying matches for the club coefficient.

Author: putzeijs
Date: 05-03-2008, 13:42

I admid that I read this forum less than it was before, so I totally missed this 20% / points of the qualification debat.

Personally I would be in favor of both changes.

Especially those of the team points in the qualy's.
With less teams in the "real European stages", the whole club ranking would be a ex-equo for probably 60% of the countries.
With these change, a team reaching year after year Q2 would be rewarded for it's own merit.

Author: Malko
Date: 05-03-2008, 17:19

I always think that the country-coefficient should be increased instead of decreased.
Winning a Cup in a strong country, or qualifying for UEFA-Cup in a strong country makes that you have led behind you very strong teams too....and so you have to be respected.
And the most important: letting count only the team-coefficient, and not the country coefficient is in favor of championships, where always the same clubs are on the first ranks, i say Scotland, portugal and Belgium for example, and in disfavor of a strong championship, where the struggle for UEFA-Cup-Places is tough, like France which is the best example. Toulouse was not seeded, had to play qualification vs Liverpool and didn't get to groupstage of CL. They should have been seeded, beeing third in France, more than some team which grapped some UEFA-points, because they are always participating, playing in a weaker league, but...grapping points.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 05-03-2008, 18:18

Bringing forward my point from the archived topic.

The best way of resolving the "debate" between the two systems - which unfortunately I suspect wont happen - would be for UEFA to calculate a coefficient list based on both systems (33%+ no qualifying points & 20% with qualifying points). One would of course be the "official ranking" (I'd say the current one but I'm fairly indifferent) but when it comes to the qualifying rounds (including current UEFA R1 which is apparently to become a qualifying round in future) then the draw could be organised to ensure that teams seeded under one ranking system but unseeded under the other would always face those with the opposite seeding status.

So in other words any team unseeded due to the reduction in country coefficient value - plus extra points given to other teams for their qualifying round exploits - would get the chance to prove on the pitch that they "deserve" seeding status more than the teams that become seeded under the 20% + qualifying points system - or vice versa of course.

Re: 33% country coefficient will be changed to 20%
Author: amirbachar Date: 05-03-2008, 19:46	@badgerboy, so what you basically suggesting is to have 4 pots, but not in equal size, but it will be decided by two systems. It might be ok, but it will be just too complicated. And besides, why taking these two systems and not other two like 50% and 25% for example?

Author: Cirdan
Date: 05-03-2008, 20:26

@badgerboy: I think it's too complicated...

@Malko: Toulouse didn't even win against CSKA Sofia (went through on away goals) and finished last in their UC group, lost every match except the last against Spartak when half of Spartaks players were already on holiday. You really want to tell me that team has to be seeded IN CL QUALIFYING ROUND 3? All seeded teams that round this year played Europe in the spring recently (except Tampere, but they took Levskis coefficiant, and they were in UC quaters I think), Toulouse failed utterly to do that, and all their opponents played in weaker leagues than the French according to the coefficiants (and according to you

). Also, last season Verona and Osasuna were unseeded and went out against Levski Sofia and Hamburg, both from weaker leagues (especially Sofia), after that Verona was seeded in UCR1 and lost against Braga, again from a weaker league you mentioned...

But maybe you could make an argument in the UC seeding, Nürnberg and Toulouse both went through unseeded this year, but both managed to do so just barely on away goals, last season Frankfurt went through without problems against Brondby, but on the other hand teams like Hertha BSC, Olympique Marseille and aforementioned Verona went out seeded against opponents from lower leagues.

So, from on-the-pitch-results of big5 teams in UCR1 it's a bit difficult to judge whether to decrease or increase the country coefficiants contribution... However I would be VERY carefull with decreasing the ratio and using qualifying points for team coefs. If a team finally managed to qualify for the UEFA Cup group stage, and even went through to the round of 32 and is happily seeded in the UCR1 (in the future: last qualifying round) of the next season, they will be pretty disappointed when they suddenly face an unseeded Manchester City and take a humiliating defeat.

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 07-03-2008, 22:22

Following the news in European Club Forum gives way to the European Club Association, I did some calculations for the team ranking with the following rules:
1) use 20% of the country coefficient for the team coefficient (instead of 33%),
2) count matches in qualifying round for 50% (just as with country coefficients).

See current UEFA Team Ranking 2008 until March 7,
new UEFA Team Ranking 2008 until March 7,
new UEFA Team Ranking 2007.

Author: Maluyaca
Date: 08-03-2008, 12:26
Edited by: Maluyaca
at: 08-03-2008, 12:38

@cirdan: about upsets of teams from big leaugues.

I think the moment that the qualifying rounds are played (July - August) is in favor of the countries who start early.

Italy, Spain and Portugal for example are 3 countries who start their domestic leaugue very late in the season (end of august) and for the qualifying rounds for example they have a disadvantage.

I'm Belgian and I have seen how Belgian football stood still in the last years, Anderlecht can cause a upset in August against a team of a better leaugue but if they had to play the same team in september or in october their chances of succeeding would be lower. The example of Anderlecht they lost 1-0 in the home leg of the first match at Fenerbache in the second half they dominated and should have scored more then once. The conclusion of a lot of Belgians was that Anderlecht should be able to eliminate Fenerbache at home. Fenerbache was not conditionally not ready to play that match but somehow they won it. 2 weeks later the return leg and I saw a team who was on the same level conditionaly (Anderlecht) and Fenerbache who was on a higher level conditionaly then 2 weeks before. At that moment Fenerbache was already to strong and won it easy.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 08-03-2008, 16:30
Edited by: badgerboy
at: 08-03-2008, 16:52

So a look at some of the differences there would have been in seeding this year.

Champions League

Pot 1
Unchanged

Pot 2
Werder Bremen replaced by Celtic

Pot 3
Sporting Lisbon & Lazio replaced by Rangers & Shakhtar.

Qualifying Round 3
No change!

Qualifying Round 2
FBK Kaunas seeded (or Zeta who beat them in QR1?) & Salzburg not.

UEFA Cup

Round 1

FC Kobenhavn, Litex Lovech, Dinamo Zagreb, OB Odense & Petrzalka Bratislava seeded & Getafe, Atletico, Fiorentina, Empoli & Rennes unseeded.

So in the CL the implication that Group C was relatively "easy" with one pot 3 and two pot 4 teams. Meanwhile Group D was tougher with two pot 2 teams & one pot 3.

Some tough teams would have been unseeded in UEFA R1 - but not that different to last year under the current system.

It's when you look at the whole list & see things like APOEL Nicosia (lost in CL R1) being seeded ahead of any Spanish "newbie" that it starts to look "iffy" to me.

Re: 33% country coefficient will be changed to 20%
Author: 2mas.NO Date: 24-03-2008, 15:15	Any idea when this change might apply? Surely the UEFA board has to make a decision, but maybe in time for the 20000/10 season? (Last time, the change was immediate: Changes in calculation of UEFA team coefficients.)