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Author: jlennon
Date: 22-02-2008, 15:09

After this week's games, it is almost sure that France and Germany will change places next year. This is because Germany's disaster season (4.714 points in 2003/2004) and France's 13.5 points (AS Monaco in the finals) are no longer part of the calculation.

After 2004/2005, 2005/2006 and 2006/2007, France still has a slight advantage of 1.732 points:

France: 11.428+10.812+10.000 = 32.240
Germany: 10.571+10.437+9.5 = 30.508

Considering this year, Germany (11.071) already has a slight advantage of 4.429 points over France (6.642).

The only remaining question is: How much of the advantage will be left at the end of the season?

In worst case (i.e. German teams lose wherever possible), Germany will end up with 5 more points (2 games and one bonus point), as Hamburg and Leverkusen are going to face each other in UC round of last 16, leading to a total of 11.78 points.

In best case, both OL and OM will win every remaining game to be the new CL/UC winners:

OL: 2 (last 16) + 4 (QF) + 4 (SF) + 2 (F) + 3 (bonus)
OM: 4 (QF) + 4 (SF) + 2 (F) + 3 (bonus)

This would lead to a total number of 10.642 points for France at the end of May. This means, Germany is already catching up this season, leaving an advantage of 0.594 points for France so far.

Multiplied times the number of teams for both Germany and France (7 each), 0.594 results in 4.158 points. This for example translates to "two wins and a draw" for Germany.

As a result, one can say that Germany is going to gain 4th place if, for example
- one German club reaches a semi final
- three German clubs reach a quarter final
- ...

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Zhund0r Date: 22-02-2008, 15:15 Edited by: Zhund0r at: 22-02-2008, 15:15	I really don't think the question is THAT Germany will be ranked 4 next year - it is rather the question with how many points advantage. Even if Schalke fails in Porto, Germany has 3(4) top teams in UC who can possibly all win the cup.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: JC71 Date: 22-02-2008, 15:22	Germany will start next year season in 4th, with a good advantage over France, will it end like that?

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: larmen Date: 22-02-2008, 20:58	Isn't 4th a bit meaningless? I mean, there is no advantage over 5th, especially now that mighty Romania did fail, so there isn't a real danger of dropping out of the top 6. I am really happy to see the German teams doing well, but unless a top 3 nations realy struggles for a few year in a row there isn't much hope to get an extra team into the CL.

Author: Malko
Date: 23-02-2008, 11:45

I also think that if Germany will take the 4th place, even at the end of next season, it will be difficult to hold the seasons after. France will not make such a bad season as this year every year, and with teams like Marseille and Bordeaux establishing themselves in duration in top of the league, France will increase the points in the next seasons and get before Germany again. This year's resulkts are also coming from the draws. VS strong teams, including Lyon, German teams didn't have any chance in Championsleague. Schalke vs Manchester wouldn't have pointed either....

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Lusankya Date: 23-02-2008, 13:18	I'm pretty sure Germany can defend the 4th place vs France. Lyon and Munich are somewhat equal, but after Lyon comes nothing in France. Marseille or Bordeaux aren't as good as Werder, Schalke, HSV or Leverkusen. Even if they were it's still 5 good teams vs 3 good teams, so Germany should hold their lead.

Author: Malko
Date: 23-02-2008, 13:32
Edited by: Malko
at: 23-02-2008, 13:42

Lusankya, i just think different. Munich is a bit away from Lyon (even see UEFA-Ranking), I suppose, and after Munich, there is not much in Germany, Schalke, Bremen, leverkusen are good average, but no team who can establish in Europe. Marseille could, and will again, and even Paris ! . Nancy threw out Schalke last year . Yes, hambourg won vas rennes this year....well. But anyway, in average, the french league seems to be some stronger than the german.(I base this on seeing matches of both leagues every weekend, the game in France is much faster) Well, we will see....

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Overgame Date: 23-02-2008, 14:05	Malko : AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH Please, don't make me laugh so much :p Paris back and good in Europe LLLOOOLLL, french league better than german league : LLLOOOLLL.

Author: Zhund0r
Date: 23-02-2008, 16:05
Edited by: Zhund0r
at: 23-02-2008, 16:12

lol UEFA Ranking...
Munich did a bad season in the Bundesliga last year but smashed out Real in CL. After the season they bought players like Ribery, Toni, Klose, Sosa, Altintop, Breno, Ze Roberto and so on. And now you come and want to compare Lyon and Munich by coefficients? Munich is actually much better than Lyon at the moment and after Lyon you have Bordeaux and Marseille. They aren't constant enough, like the rest of the french league. Every year you can see new french teams in CL/UC. I don't think, that the Ligue 1 is better than the Bundesliga at the moment.
And by the way: Leverkusen did win against Toulouse in UC.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Kaiser Date: 23-02-2008, 17:14	German clubs have always being better than French ones. I wonder why France is higher in ranking...

Author: Malko
Date: 23-02-2008, 19:18
Edited by: Malko
at: 23-02-2008, 19:39

Zundor: lyon ALWAYS has beaten the german champion. If it was Bremen, Stuttgart, or Bayern. And mostly by more than 3 goals off difference ! So comparing bayern to lyon actually is a little hazardous.
Yes, Toulouse was beaten, Toulouse is struggling for remaining in the Ligue1, too...so...
If you see entire games of both leagues, yo'll see, that the French Ligue1 is above the Bundesliga actually...maybe not so much as 3 or 4 years ago, but still..in spite of UEFA coefficients. Schalke, Stuttgart won't finish in the first 5 in France.....but back to the topic: Yes, germany wil take over France in UEFA-ranking, but this won' last, cause the french league is stronger in average, and the big clubs are beginning to re-establish. France lost ground, cause of teams like Lille, when they had some european experience, didn't play european cups anymore. In germany, where there are only a few clubs with a good level, always the same are in european cups, and this helps. Maybe France was victim of it's own average streght, without having 2 or 3 clubs above the others. I would'nt tell that not having constance, but there are in france much more teams which are strong enough to fight for the first places than in germany.Soon, France will be again closer to No3, italy, as to Number 5, Germany.

Bye the way, if some people think, bundesliga is better than Ligue1, they just join the opinion in germany who think the same. Everyone has the right to think what he wants to think, just I do not share this opinion...and future will tell us who is right and who is wrong.

Author: Zhund0r
Date: 23-02-2008, 20:38

You are talking much about the past. Yes, Lyon WAS better than Bayern the last few years, because Bayern didn't want to spend much money for new players. Now they have a new philosophy. 03/04 Lyon had it's best time and drawed and won one time against this old Bayern philosophy. Nowadays it would not be that easy..
And you are talking about constance.. What happens when Dortmund will come back to the top?

In addition to that the Bundesliga will get more money from Pay TV next season. - well money brings sucess..
Well, we just have to wait what the future brings ^^

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 24-02-2008, 00:19
Edited by: Lyonnais
at: 24-02-2008, 00:24

Yes, Germany will take the 4th place and the only issue is to know whether it will be this season or next season.

Will France be able to take it back soon? no I don't think so
- first because of the way UEFA coefficients are calculated (you keep your bad or good coefficients 5 years in a row, just like the 2004 coefficient who was so advantageous for France) and,
- second, because, generally speaking, I believe that the Bundesliga has strong competitive advantages (attendances, stadium, money, prestige) who will help Germany remain competitive in the next few years

This said, I find some of our German friends a bit euphoric. Rather than focusing only on the UEFA Cup, where German clubs indeed perform very well and I'm glad about that, they should also remember that the Champions League campaign was another disappointment for Germany (like for France). Not a complete disaster but almost and this sounds much more significant to me. The gap with the big 3 leagues doesn't stop increasing and at the end, that's the key issue the Bundesliga will have to address. The Ligue 1 obviously has the same problem.

Author: Cirdan
Date: 24-02-2008, 01:05
Edited by: Cirdan
at: 24-02-2008, 01:17

Financially, the Bundesliga definitely has an advantage, and starting this season the money gets invested in players again. Additionaly, the improvements in our youth development are getting results since a couple of years.

From what I've seen of French teams recently in the UEFA Cup and the CL, I wouldn't rate the French football much different from the German, though I find it very hard to believe that a team as strong as Werder wouldn't qualify for the CL, in a really bad year for the UC in France. I have little doubt that Bayern was weaker than Lyon in the last years, but since Lyon lost a couple of strong players at the beginning of this season, and Bayern bought several strong new players, I'm not so sure anymore... Lyon had some trouble in the CL group stage, but they were pretty good against Stuttgart, Bayern showed exceptional football in the beginning of the season, but even when in top form, a team with a strong defense could cause them trouble. Bayerns squad looks strong enough to compete for the CL, yet they were also not that good on the pitch except for the first 2 months of the season, and they already lost more points than the leaders of La Liga, the EPL or Italy, Lyon faces similar problems.

I'd bet on Germany staying ahead of France because of
a) starting 3-4 points ahead and losing less points than France for the next 4 years,
b) advantages in money, lower taxes on players salarys and the investments in new players this year,
c) I think German youth development finally caught up again with the French,
d) what I've seen of Nancy, Lyon, Rennes and Toulouse in the UC and CL this season and last season (only Lyon was really impressing),
e) for every rich traditional club with lots of fans in France that could come back to Europe (like PSG, Monaco), you can find an at least as rich and traditional club with even more fans in Germany... first and foremost Dortmund, but also Hertha BSC, Frankfurt, 1.FC K�ln,
f) bias for my home country (I can't really deny that...).

There is little I see that would speak for Ligue 1.. I haven't seen enough to really judge the strength of the league and its clubs, in particular I haven't seen the current teams of Marseille or Bordeaux, if we don't include Eurogoals. So I can't really say that the football in the Bundesliga is of a higher quality than the football in Ligue 1. From the results in Europe and from the matches I have seen, I find it hard to believe that Ligue 1 is really clearly above the Bundesliga, but I can't rule that out.

|edit| I agree about the CL problem... the top teams of La Liga and the EPL, probably also the Serie A are currently way ahead. I have some hope since this season and last season can at least in parts be discussed away with injury problems and the hard groups of Werder last year and Stuttgart this year, nevertheless, it's certainly true that the later stages of the CL are elusive for most German (and French) clubs :/ And while currently most Germans are all hyped about Bayern competing for the CL title again in the next seasons, I'm not yet convinced that they are really that good, due to draws against teams like Duisburg or Aberdeen.

Author: Overgame
Date: 24-02-2008, 09:09

Every week, there is some french guy somewhere trying to explain with the L1 is better than 'put one of the top3 league or german league here' ; explaining how the 18th in France is better than the 10th in in that league, etc, etc.

No, the 18th in France is not better than the 10th in Germany. Germany sent a 2nd level teams a few years ago, with better results than most of the french teams. The only reason why you're keeping with that idea is one single result, when Nancy won against Schalke. Wow, what a way to compare, when Hamburg win against Rennes, Leverkusen against Toulouse for 2007/2008, Only Lyon has won against Sttugart.
Lens was out against Leverkusen (Lens was 2nd in the league) last year, etc.

You cannot even say that the german in Uc are the top, Germany has almost always the top3 in CL.

No, French league is not better than german one. Lyon was probably better than any german team during the last 5 years (for now, that's really hard to compare Bayern and Lyon) but saying "Schalke, Stuttgart won't finish in the first 5 in France" is arrogant.

"Soon, France will be again closer to No3, italy, as to Number 5, Germany."

That's probably the best part :p Italy has not one, not two, not even 3 but FOUR teams equal or stronger than Lyon :p And for the UC, let's see if Fiorentina can do it :p

Even when Italy doesn't send their best teams, Italy is scoring more than France :p The only season when France scored more will disappear soon, and i will find funny to see how France will close a gap of 12 points with 6 teams, when their best is not better than the 4th italian one :p And i'm not sure if Marseille or Bordeaux (whee, ANDERLECHT !!!!!) is better than the subtop teams in Italy :p

Author: Malko
Date: 24-02-2008, 10:03

Overgame, well Italy didn't score so much points this year either......

Concerning Cirdan, and concerning money, I am not sure german teams get much more money then french ones. The TV-monbey is much higher in France and increased even for the nexht 5 years (new contracts).
Who are the richest clubs?...see Money-league.

http://www.immerblau.ch/deloit.pdf

Now, concerning french teams, in the next years, many of them will get new stadiums with more comfort, more seats and so on, and attendance will increase again. Games like Caen/Saint Etienne (Caen has a pretty nice stadium) are already sold out. When rennes got its new stadium, attendence was doubled! This will get them "closer" to the german "ambiance"

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Overgame Date: 24-02-2008, 10:40	Last year, at the same point of the season, Italy has less points scored and less teams left :p Oh, i stop to argue with you. When France will be in battle for the 6th spot and not the 3rd, i'll really find it funny. You're just like honesty and some others folks, trying to explain us how your country is strong when that's really not the case.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 24-02-2008, 11:10	Overgame, it is not MY country. i am from Luxembourg, and see Ligue1 and Bundesliga, and Belgian League (our third neighbor) directly from national TVs...... Bye the way, you want to see some great goals (not only from France), look here. http://iker91.fr/

Author: Enrique
Date: 24-02-2008, 12:32
Edited by: Enrique
at: 24-02-2008, 12:33

Truth is Lyon has not lost to a German team for several years now.

Truth is also that Lyon has never reached more than the Quarterfinals in the CL.

Considering that Lyon has been playing CL for several consecutive years now (=lots of money and experience), this is really just normal achievement...same as the German teams, with exception that Bayern at least has won the CL a few years ago.

All other french teams haven't really achieved much lately...sort of similar to German teams. This is reflected in the 5 years ranking. Both nations showed decent performance without over-achieving.

So, put away the past for a minute. Let's look into the future

Overall I believe that the potential is bigger in Germany (crowds, TV rights, competition).
This year Germany will take more points than France.
And France will loose their highest scores in the upcoming years.

Hence, Germany is my favorite to stay on rank 4...with potential for more...

Author: Malko
Date: 24-02-2008, 12:51

"Overall I believe that the potential is bigger in Germany (crowds, TV rights, competition)."
------
Well, concerning TV rights, this is not true. they are much bigger in France.
Crowds? that's true, but increasing in France.
Competition? What do you mean? The competition is tougher in France, where from UEFA-Places to relegation it's only 7 points!
---------
"This year Germany will take more points than France."

yes, there you are right

------
"And France will loose their highest scores in the upcoming years."

I thing there will be in the coming years more high scores.

And it is not quite true that besides Lyon, nobody went "far". monaco was finalist some years ago, and so did Olympique Marseille....but it's true, it's 5 years away now.But the Munich-win also a couple of years ago.....

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Zhund0r Date: 24-02-2008, 13:19	@ Malko: You showed us the richest clubs: Bayern: 223,3 Mio Lyon: 140,6 Hamburg: 120,4 Schalke 114,3 Marseille 99 Werder 97,3 ........................................

Author: Cirdan
Date: 24-02-2008, 13:38
Edited by: Cirdan
at: 24-02-2008, 13:54

the French tv rights deal is better than the German, however sponsorship deals and stadium attendances in Germany are better (unfortunately I don't have a link, but I do remember the average revenue per team for the Bundesliga being nearly as good as the Serie A, La Liga and Ligue 1 were behind a bit, EPL way ahead for season 05/06). In the money league Germany has 4 clubs compared to 2 French clubs in the top 20 and 2 clubs in the "selected non top 20 clubs" table with around 90 mio revenue in the article about possible future entrants, France has none (PSG is mentioned in the article, but no numbers are given).

Added to this, there is the problem that the taxes on players salaries are very high in France, according to a study about the Bundesliga by Ernst & Young in 2006 (done in German, see here ) a French club has to pay ca 1.5 times the total salary to a player to give him the same net salary compared to a German club.

So, financially, Germany definitely has an advantage.

Author: Enrique
Date: 24-02-2008, 13:51

@Malko: If you read carefully what I wrote:
The potential on TV-Rights is bigger in Germany.
I haven't said that the money made with TV-Rights is currently more.

The Bundesliga is a dormant giant who hasn't developed his potential. TV-income is very likely to increase steadily over the next years since all parties are realizing more and more that things have to change, if German teams want to compete seriously in Europe.

I'm not sure about the perspectives on TV-money in France. Would be interesting if somebody could tell a bit about it. Is it likely to increase or is the market saturated?

Author: Cirdan
Date: 24-02-2008, 14:02
Edited by: Cirdan
at: 24-02-2008, 14:05

France recently made a new tv teal starting in 08/09 which is pretty much the same as the old (668 mio per year for 20 teams). It lasts 4 years

Germany is a bit tricky, they have a deal with a company (Sirius) that will sell the rights, the Bundesliga will get at least 500 mio for 18 teams (the current deal is 420 mio), however if the rights will sell for more money, huge parts of it will go to Sirius, not to the Bundesliga (though the details of that are not public). It starts in 09/10 and will go on for 6 years, personally I think it's a stupid deal.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Overgame Date: 24-02-2008, 23:43	Wonderful games in France this week. That country really belongs to the top 3, and not Italy. The top 3 of the most boring leagues, of course.

Author: Malko
Date: 25-02-2008, 21:12

Overgame, do you speak of Caen-SaintEtienne? It was an amazing game. The only bad games were Toulouse-Marseille and Lille-Bordeaux. Hope you didn't pick uop just those two........

About TV-potential, France is about to increase their international TV-rights, more and more countries beeing interested in the TV-rights of Ligue1. I do not think Bundesliga wakes much interest in the countries off germany.Switzerland and austria.....

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: amirbachar Date: 26-02-2008, 00:22	I must admit I didn't watch the French league too much, but generally speaking, it seem that the level and the tempo of the game in Germany seems better. BTW, I'm from Israel so I'm quite objective

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: bbi Date: 26-02-2008, 00:26	i think german teams are stronger than the franch ones. so if teams from the two countries meet in international games i think the germans would win most of them. but i would prefer to see games from ligue 1 and not from bundesliga.

Author: Malko
Date: 26-02-2008, 12:05

bbi, what makes you think that? (That german teams mostly win). It is not a fact. This year, it was so, but the years before, different, ....And it concerned jhust the top-teams. In average, I think that there is no more comparision possible between the two leagues. if you see the teams struggling for remainining in first league in France, they would't habe that problem in germany, i think, they would be somewhere in the the midfield, cause there are always 2 or 3 german teams in Bundesliga1 which are very weak, more than metz, sochaux or Toulouse.....

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Zhund0r Date: 26-02-2008, 12:13	hmm.. The 2. Bundesliga has many good teams who could possibly all play in the 1. Bundesliga. There is a great competition Borussia M�nchengladbach 1.FSV Mainz 05 1.FC K�ln TSG 1899 Hoffenheim (someone is spending much money ^^ new stadium 30.000 places, bought Carlos Eduardo for 8 Mio.,...) Alemannia Aachen SC Freiburg TSV 1860 M�nchen Well, in France I can't see such a quality.

Author: Malko
Date: 26-02-2008, 16:23
Edited by: Malko
at: 26-02-2008, 16:24

wow....just say second Bundesliga is stronger than the Ligue2 ???
I do not think so. Watched yesterday 2 games simultanously. Kaiserslautern-Koblenz and Sedan-Nantes, believe me, level in Sedan was better.
But thats only 2 games....
You tell me names of second Bundesliga.
in ligue 2, you have Nantes, le Havre, Troyes, bastia....which are I think not much strong than those you speak about in the 2nd Bundesliga.

Concerning Stadiums, there are a lot of new stadiums in Ligue2, see Reims, Sedan, Amiens....and much more.

Author: Zhund0r
Date: 26-02-2008, 17:32

11 Koblenz 21 -4 27
16 1.FC Kaiserslautern 21 -5 19

wow -.-
What do you expect ^^

What I wanted to say is that you have 20 teams in Ligue 1 and there is barely competition. FC Metz is almost in Ligue 2.. You can't find something like that in Germany. It is exciting till the last matchday and this shows that the teams who get up and down are similiar in consideration of their strength. You can find almost 10 teams in the 2. Bundesliga who could claim for the 1. Bundesliga...

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 26-02-2008, 19:53
Edited by: Lyonnais
at: 26-02-2008, 20:09

have you ever tried to compare 3rd level teams ?

pk, let's have a look of last Franco-German games in European Cups

2008 - CL - GS: Stuttgart - Lyon 0-2 2-4
2008 - UEFA GS: Hamburg - Rennes 3-0
2008 - UEFA GS: Leverkusen - Toulouse 1-0
2007 - UEFA R1: Schalke - Nancy 1-0 1-3
2007 - UEFA 8e: Lens - Leverkusen 2-1 0-3
2006 - UEFA GS: Monaco - Hamburg 2-0
2006 - UEFA GS: Hertha - Lens 0-0
2006 - UEFA GS: Rennes - Stuttgart 0-2
2005 - CL -1/8: Werder - Lyon 0-3 2-7
2005 - UEFA GS: Aachen - Lille 1-0
2004 - CL - GS: Lyon - Bayern 1-1 2-1
2004 - UEFA R2: Dortmund - Sochaux 2-2 0-4
2003 - CL - GS: Dortmund - Auxerre 2-1 0-1
2003 - CL - GS: Lens - Bayern 1-1 3-3

Isn't it pretty even?
So what's the need to get those ridiculous discussions 'mine is bigger than yours', blablabla?

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 27-02-2008, 15:11	Zundor, for me it's just the opposite. in France between the 5th and the 17th, there are only 7 points, so competition will be tough till last day.

Author: Achilleus7
Date: 27-02-2008, 15:37

I believe that Germany will settle in a comfortable 4th eventually. The Bundesliga has been a dormant giant as mentioned previously and I think they could challenge Italy for 3rd in a few years. I don�t believe German teams will regularly challenge in the Champions League like those of Italy but German teams take the UEFA Cup more seriously whereas in Italy the UEFA Cup as become unimportant.

Both the weight of history, which believe me has a bearing on future events, and domestic appetite for football are in Germany�s favour. With Germany�s 18 European competition winners against France�s 2, who lag behind Holland�s 11, Portugal�s 6 and even Belgium and Scotland with 4 and 3 respectively, I can�t see the trend changing. I know you don�t need to win competitions to have a good coefficient but still.

The appetite for football in France will never equal that of Germany�s and therefore the potential for Germany�s teams will in the long run be more than France�s. The average attendances after 8/9/10 games of the 2007/2008 season are;
(ref http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk )

Bundesliga 1 39,045
Bundesliga 2 17,785

Orange Ligue 1 21,329
Orange Ligue 2 7,012

When the Bundesliga finally wakes up, the TV audience revenue will only match the attendances at matches and therefore the financial potential from TV rights will be for the foreseeable future much higher in Germany than in France.

In France�s favour is the marvellous coaching system and incredible scouting system both home and abroad. I have no stats on this but I would guess they would top any league in these areas, and I would also speculate that France developed more players in the African Cup of Nations than any other country.

Anyway I agree with Lyonnais, too much time is spent saying 'mine is bigger than yours' and not enough time appreciating all football. There�s also too much emphases put on coefficients, that have been manipulated by UEFA to favour the countries with bigger TV audiences at the expense of some of the romance that European cup competition used to provide.

Author: Cirdan
Date: 27-02-2008, 15:40
Edited by: Cirdan
at: 27-02-2008, 17:17

Well, a year ago on the 21st matchday, HSV was 18th, bottom of the table, now they are fighting for the title and in the round of 16 of the UC...

But to be honest, I recently read 2 articles about competitive balance in the big European leagues, and both came to the conclusion that Ligue 1 is the most balanced of the 5 big leagues (based on point difference between top and bottom teams and based on changes in the table over the years, eg 15th in one season is 3rd in the next -> balanced league, 15th in one season is 15th in the next -> unbalanced league). However, both France and Germany had way more balance than the big 3 in these calculations, so you obviously cannot state this as a reason why France will reclaim the 4th spot...

Author: Malko
Date: 27-02-2008, 16:04

PSG is about to regain european Cups (They are finalist in the Ligue-Cup), Marseille will re-establish in the big 3 in France, and maybe Bordeaux 8even if they failed vs Anderlecht) could be the fourth regular team. maybe regularity ist the key to good UEFA-coefficienbts, not competitive leagues.
Therefore I think if marseille and PSG will be regurlarly on top again , those teams can beat any german team, and the French UEFA-coeffcient will rise again.
Btw, PSG yesterday gave a very good performance vs auxerre.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: bbi Date: 27-02-2008, 18:53	ligue and bundesliga are ruffly at the same level. both of them won't have the problem of loosing the 5 spot and neither of them will be able to challenge the 3 rd spot. they will continue to battle each other and each one will have its period of domination. i think that in the last years ligue 1 was stronger and that now has come time for bundesliga to rise for a couple of years.

Author: Cirdan
Date: 27-02-2008, 19:03

Ah, well, I wouldn't rule out any change too quickly... around 10 years ago Germany was right up there with Spain and Italy, ahead of the EPL and Ligue 1, a few years earlier La Liga had a drought and Ligue 1 was strong, and before the 90s there were only 4 big leagues, and the French was not one of them.

At the moment it doesn't really look like the situation (big 3, then France/Germany) is likely to change, but who knows what happens in the next 5-10 years.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 28-02-2008, 15:52	....and if we think, that in the late seventies, the Belgian League was one of the Big 3.....Number 2 in 79 and 80, and still Number 4 in.....1994 !!!

Author: dzomba
Date: 03-03-2008, 12:40
Edited by: dzomba
at: 03-03-2008, 12:41

@ Malko
Yes, Anderlecht was a great club until late nineties, when the CL format had changed. Anderlecht was just a little under giants level.

I think France is losing quality. I remember great french matches and spectacular goals, but lately not much excitement. Their league seem to stop (slow down) producing talents and they cannot replace all those exports to the big three leagues. They managed to do that in previous years, but not anymore. Although this season is very bad, and i don't expect it to repeat, French clubs won't come back to the top (like Monaco in CL final) very soon. Even Lyon won't last forever.

On the other side, Germany is obviously rising. Bayern, who was very tight fisted lately, finally open their purse and spend a lot of money last spring. Other German clubs also financially recovered (except Dortmund, but other replaced them).

Author: Malko
Date: 03-03-2008, 18:07

dzomba, what makes people say, Bayern is rising. Even German Fans say that bayern is actually everything but european Top. Cause they habe Toni, Ribery and Klose?
They will probably be german champion, but there is no indicator saying they will play any role in Championsleague next year. they are probably the most performing german team, but far away from european top, even far away from Lyon actually. Objectively, I would compare them to marseille at this moment.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Zhund0r Date: 03-03-2008, 18:14	lol Bayern = Marseille rofl

Author: bbi
Date: 03-03-2008, 19:00

malko you are not being objectiv. what did lyon do this year so that you say that bayern is not at theire level. lyon struggled to get past the c.l group stage and will more likely be out after the first knock out round. so lyon showed this year that they are much weaker than in the previous years. bayern on the other hand didn't show to much weaknes of course we can't appreciate theire full strength because of the weaker opponents in uefa cup.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Overgame Date: 03-03-2008, 19:13	Funny :p I said that i'll stop to argue, so i won't, but comparing Marseille (a team who is not able to pass Porto) versus Bayern (who was in 1/4 last year with a desastrous season in Bundesliga) is the joke of the month

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 03-03-2008, 19:20	Zundor, what makes you say Bayern is actually at the level of Olympique mareille? Did you see both teams play entire matches the last months? I did. bbi, what did bayern do this year? Nothing at all ! Not even ONE strong team as opponent in all this season. Overgame, would Bayern pass Porto? i am not sure at all.......

Author: Zhund0r
Date: 03-03-2008, 19:44
Edited by: Zhund0r
at: 03-03-2008, 19:57

omfg, just have a look at the facts:

Team coefficients 2008

Bayern: 16.6535
Marseille: 12.1920
(EVEN Schalke, Leverkusen, Werder & Hamburg have more!)

16 Bayern M�nchen 5-3-0 13.0 Points
41 Olympique Marseille 3-1-4 10.0 Points

Marseille lost 4(!) times - more often than winning!!
Bayern lost 0 games - 1 in the hole season (in Stuttgart) and Marseille lost 7 (!) games in Ligue!

Even if I compare the statistics between Bayern & Lyon - Bayern is top!

Worth of the players(source: transfermarkt.de VERY objective)

Bayern: 240.300.000 Mio.
Marseille: 114.000.000 Mio.

And now you come and want to compare one of the biggest clubs with a team, who can't even reach the top of Ligue 1? LOL of the YEAR!

Edit:
I could go on like this without an end.

Players of the top 3 nations of the WC 06:

Marseille: 1
Bayern: 9

Author: Cirdan
Date: 03-03-2008, 19:57

Well... the season is not over, maybe Marseille will win the UEFA Cup. Anyway, if Marseille are really better than Bayern, they must be great... Bayern already had some outstanding performances this season.

However it is true that they they had a lot of mediocre and lackluster performances in between... only one match was lost, but a draw at home against Duisburg, or the draws in Aberdeen and Braga at the European stage didn't really look like they could go all the way in the CL. It will be interesting to see how they will perform next year against the big clubs. The quality is definitely there, you could see that in matches like the 4:0 win in Bremen or the 6:0 destruction of Aris Thessaloniki, but I'm less convinced about the mentality.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Zhund0r Date: 03-03-2008, 20:00	Give me one reason why Bayern should be as concentrated and motivated in the uefa cup as in the champions league. They played sometimes with half of the second team and were not under pressure.. They did what they must - reach the next rounds.

Author: Overgame
Date: 03-03-2008, 20:02

Malko : you are boring.

When you check the results of France, you can see a pattern. They send aone or 2 teams in semi (or more) every 5 years, and nothing more between (constant results, but nothing more).

Germany, on the other hand, was really strong 5 years ago but had a bad period. With Bremen's semi 12 months ago and with 5 teams still in course (better than Spain), they seem to be back.

But you're trying to explain how France is rising (with no team in quarter last year and almost all teams out right now) and how Germany is far (when you're talking about challenging Italy for the third spot).

In fact, you have 2 arguments, and bring them in every message :

1) Lyon.
2) Nancy-Schalke from last year.

What i can see from the past results is simple : a french team has almost 50% chance to win against a big team, but almost the same chance against a team from a smaller country.

Oh, and yes, Bayern would have easily won against Porto and been 1st in the group.

Author: Cirdan
Date: 03-03-2008, 20:23
Edited by: Cirdan
at: 03-03-2008, 20:32

@Zhundor: Barely... They needed penalty shoot out against Burghausen in the first round of the DFB Pokal, winning that is as much luck as anything else, and they nearly reached a pso again last week against Wolfsburg. They also disappointed in the first 3 UC group stage matches, when they should have made everything clear. Likewise, it's not Bremens strength that is keeping the title race in the Bundesliga open, it's Bayerns weakness. They failed to beat Hertha and Duisburg in key matches before the winter break (Bremen failed to take the top spot by beating Hannover back then), and they were weak in these matches, not unlucky. Plus, the only time they convincingly beat an opponent of class was Werder Bremen back in the summer... apart from that, they drew HSV twice, were lucky to beat Leverkusen 1:0, drew Bremen a few weeks back... maybe you can count the 1:0 win against Schalke at the weekend as a second one, but if you consider that they don't even have important CL matches they have to concentrate on, Bayern is not exactly fantastic this season.

[edit> And I mean fantastic as in serious contender for the CL title, like a lot of Germans hope. If they'd play CL this year, I wouldn't rate them among the prime candidates (And I wouldn't rate Lyon as high, either).

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Zhund0r Date: 03-03-2008, 20:30	sure Cirdan. But this is not the question. Compared to Marseille - there are dimensions lol

Author: dzomba
Date: 04-03-2008, 11:06

@ Mostly to Malko:

When you have a lot of money (like Bayern) that doesn't mean that you automatically (and immediately) have a perfect squad, but that gives you freedom. You can have a really poor one season (like last) and next year totally different (winning a CL). When you have money, you can try doing that many times. One year you can buy wrong players, it doesn't matter, you will change them next year. And again next year. And again and again if needed. Like Chelsea or Real. Until you make a really good team, not only good players.
Bayern has ability to one year even do not qualify, and next year win a CL.
Lyon doesn't have such power, although they also have a lot of money (mostly from selling players).
Remember that Bayern is a team like Milan, a team which can perform really bad in league, but can win a CL, because of their experince and (hidden) quality, while other, more spectacular teams (Arsenal, Roma, Inter, Lyon) cannot.
Champions league is not the only measure. The fact that Germany performed bad in CL, is some sign, but that's not everything.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 04-03-2008, 11:12 Edited by: Malko at: 04-03-2008, 11:14	Well, i just hope there will be a bayern-Lyon (or even a Bayern-Marseille) next year. First match I quote 70-30 for Lyon, second 50-50. Bayern great performances this year? Let me laugt. like i said, there was NOT ONE big opponent to bayern this year. Oh c'mon, please don' say Schalke or Bremen. i speak of tems like Manchester, milan, barcelona, and even lyon.......

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Lusankya Date: 04-03-2008, 14:13	You are right, Bayern had medicore performances this season. But I don't see any good performances by Lyon, too. They couldn't win vs a big opponent. Bayern with a bad squad won vs Inter and Real last year at least and reached the quarters. So Lyon vs Munich is 50-50 and nothing more for Lyon. And Marseille has a 50/50 Chance maybe vs Leverkusen but not Bayern.

Author: Cirdan
Date: 04-03-2008, 14:32

@Malko: We'll see, I rate Bayern higher (like anyone else). And it's not that Lyon or Marseille have so many great performances against the really big teams to show up this season... Marseille barely won against Liverpool and got humiliated in the return leg, Lyon has not won once against Barca and ManU so far. Like I said earlier, I'm not sure about Bayerns strength either, but without matches against big clubs to judge them upon, you can neither say they are not able to do it... and at least some of the team were part of last years Bayern, who beat Inter and Real despite being crap

@dzomba: What experience? Not including Kahn, there are only 2 players left in Bayerns squad that won the Champions League, Willy Sagnol and Mark van Bommel, who won it as a sub with Barca... a lot of Bayerns players haven't even played CL so far, including their biggest stars Franck Ribery and Luca Toni. They might have a bit more experience than Marseille, but comparing the squad to Milan regarding experience is at least as laughable to me as saying Marseille is as good as Bayern.

Btw, this discussion is not making a lot of sense anymore... Summary: Malko sais he sees German and French teams play and thinks the French are better, but there are no results to support that opinion, there's nothing more to say about that. We'll have to see in the next years who is right.

Author: dzomba
Date: 04-03-2008, 15:34
Edited by: dzomba
at: 05-03-2008, 08:44

@ Cirdan

Experience is gained in 'big' matches. It doesn't matter if they are in Champions league, Uefa cup, National teams or domestic league and cups (finals). I think also it's a experience if a player had played in two or more different leagues in his carrier, or changed many teams.
So for me, Toni, Ribery, Klose, Lucio are all very experienced players (mostly gained experience through national team, but that doesn't matter).

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Zhund0r Date: 04-03-2008, 23:25	First big team for Lyon and out - like every year.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: doremi Date: 05-03-2008, 06:47	with lyon & milan out, i'm fancy for germeny to go to the 3rd position which will be: 3 - germany 4 - italy 5 - france is it possible???

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Zhund0r Date: 05-03-2008, 10:46	France will be 5.th for sure the very next years.. Well, Germany can make many points this season and if Inter & Roma won't reach next round while Schalke does.. There is a possibility, but not the next 2 Years. 2010 we can have a battle between Italy & Germany.

Author: Cirdan
Date: 05-03-2008, 11:52

I'm starting to fear we Germans might make a fool of ourselves over this in these forums, similar to the Romanians when they were heading for 3rd... I mean it certainly looks less impossible than it did last year, but reading "Italy has 2 strong teams from Milan and the rest isn't competetive" in Forum 2 baffles me... Italy has 3 teams in CL 2nd round, Germany only one, Italy had a lot of bad luck in the draw (Milan and Inter got the strongest runner-ups, and Roma didn't get one of the easier group winners either) and Juventus isn't even participating... to me, the Italian top 5 look stronger than the German top 5 right now, so I don't think there will be a change in the ranking in 2010 or 2011 (before it's impossible anyway). That being said, I feel hopes getting up myself, even if I think they are likely to get smashed just next season again

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: folktronica Date: 05-03-2008, 12:38	I hope Russia will argue to France for 5th place next year. Only 4,007 points between them The battle begings tomorrow Marsel-Zenit

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 05-03-2008, 12:44	I stay believing this year is an exception as for france as for germany.....nothing lets us think, they will score again as much next season. Bremen, schalke and so on couldn't pass a Manchester United or Arsenal either.........well, we'll see...... Maybe we'll have some F_G oppositions next year....I wouldlike a lyon-Bayern

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: ferdi Date: 05-03-2008, 12:53	Cirdan, rest assured that Germany will eventually pass Italy or not, but there won't be a "Germany 3rd next year" thread, at least not started by a German. The Germans tend to do things rather than just to talk about things.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 05-03-2008, 13:18	well ferdi, so you do not listen carefully to them....they are everywhere talking : Wir werden Europameister. Germans are really the world-champions in talking

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Zhund0r Date: 05-03-2008, 13:32	Who said "Wir werden Europameister?" I only remember Beckenbauer: "After the WC06 and the strong qualification we have to be one of many favorites". No nation can be sure to win this EC in my opinion.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: ferdi Date: 05-03-2008, 13:49	"well ferdi, so you do not listen carefully to them....they are everywhere talking : Wir werden Europameister. Germans are really the world-champions in talking" I think that the Germans don't accept to be not in the semis. I. e. if they don't reach the semis, you can expect that some action will be taken. But reaching the best four is acceptable.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Zhund0r Date: 05-03-2008, 14:08	Well, what do you expect after WC06? You can't expect from the german society that they say: Oh, we will be fine, if we reach the quarterfinal. lol.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Lusankya Date: 05-03-2008, 14:15	Especially after the disastrous EURO 00 and 04. I think the germans are happy, that they finally have a good team again. Semifinal is a realistic estimation, because their group is rather easy (compared to their EURO 00 and 04 groups or the Italy, France, Holland group). BTT: I'm really confident, that Germany can hold the 4th place next year. But we need to wait until next season.

Author: Malko
Date: 05-03-2008, 14:38

Zundhor, it's a song .....:-)

Well, yes, germany made a quite fair performance in Worldcup at home 2 years ago.....but we shouldn't overestimate it either. Only a win vs England after the WC concerning matchs vs Top-Nations. Too less to say they are Top themselves again....
But it is true, they could reach semi-finals or even final more easyliy than the major favorites, which will eliminate each other before. (only Portugal is in the german-Field till the final, France, Italy, Holland and Spain are in the other field, only one of them then get to the final) (rather silly drawing this way. they should cross in quarterfinals, or latest, semifinals.)

Author: Achilleus7
Date: 05-03-2008, 14:46

Well the direction of the debate keeps becoming defensive with Malko�s bias towards French football. Like Cirdan said earlier Malko believes French football is better, a point laboured for many years on this forum, based on very little. It makes the many contributors who like me appreciate greatly and respect French football, appear not to when responding to such pro-French football comments.

I also agree with Cirdan that Italian football is more than just 2 teams. Serie A is in a mini-slump with clubs recovering from financial problems and the recent scandal affecting the strength in depth but they will recover and the average attendances will also recover from the recent slump. They also posses three of the true giants of European club football in Inter, AC Milan and Juventus who will always contest the Champions League in the latter stages most years. But it will be the return to form of Roma, Lazio, Fiorentina, Sampdoria, etc on a regular basis that will push their coefficient up when more competitive in the UEFA Cup.

But back to the issue in hand, I always considered the Bundesliga as one the great Leagues of Europe and performing below it�s potential in recent years. As much as I respect the French league and it�s teams, I never fear them. Again I look at the history of European football and French teams do not figure a great deal and I can�t see that changing. Not only does their pedigree compare poorly with German teams but with teams from Holland and Portugal as well and I would put money on a team from these leagues winning a European Cup or UEFA cup before a French team will.

To compare Lyon with Bayern Munich is just wrong. Yes the excellent scouting and youth development of Lyon along with many French clubs as been outstanding and kept them competitive, but the European pedigree and long term potential of Bayern and other German teams are greater than that of French teams. Bayern Munich are a true giant of European football on the same plateau as the afore mentioned Inter, AC Milan and Juventus as well as Barcelona, Real Madrid, Man Utd and Liverpool.

On the measurements I use, i.e. not just the coefficient, Lyon have a pedigree below that of Benfica, Sporting Lisbon, Porto, PSV, Ajax, Feyenoord, Celtic, Rangers, etc, etc. Win a few European Cups then people and teams take notice, having a good coefficient is not enough.

Author: Dragonite
Date: 05-03-2008, 15:30

�On the measurements I use, i.e. not just the coefficient, Lyon have a pedigree below that of Benfica, Sporting Lisbon, (�) etc, etc. Win a few European Cups then people and teams take notice, having a good coefficient is not enough.�

------------

Your �measurements� are really funny in my opinion.

While I agree that teams like Lyon, Arsenal or Chelsea must win the CL to become �European giants�, they definitely don�t have to win it to be �above� Sporting, for instance.

Exactly why is Sporting better than Lyon??!! Is it because they won a Cup Winners Cup in the 60�s??? So what??!

Sporting NEVER reached further than the CL group stages, and they only qualify to the CL some times� They just won 1 Portuguese League over the last 6 seasons, back in 2002.

Lyon qualified to the CL for the 8th consecutive season, and they reached the CL last 16 for the 5th consecutive time!!

Even teams like FC Porto, Bayern, Juventus, Manchester United or Barcelona couldn�t do it.

Reaching the CL last 16 for 5 consecutive seasons (& winning the French league 6 consecutive times) may not be enough to be among the �European giants�, but of course they are better than Sporting.

Even teams with Champions Cups in theirs histories- like Benfica or Inter- unless they win more trophies �recently� (about this �recently� it�s hard to set a time limit), as far as I�m concerned (�my measurements�, we can call them), Lyon is at least at the same level of these 2 (and so are Chelsea & Arsenal).

I do agree that Lyon fans are �pretentious� if they compare theirs club to Bayern; however, Bayern fans are equally �pretentious� if they think that playing the CL would be like facing Aberdeen & Aris.

Author: ralfinho
Date: 05-03-2008, 16:06

Malko,
your comments to French and German football are - in my view - pretty biased. However, you are of course entitled to your sight of things.

But statements like "so you do not listen carefully to them....they are everywhere talking : Wir werden Europameister." are not only biased, but almost offending.

Obviously, Germany is one of the favourites of the tournament in summer, together with some others, but not more. Sure, many Germans if asked (in polls) "Who will be the European champion?" choose Germany ahead of Italy, France etc., but nobody says "We will definitely be European champion". Even not the nasty tabloid "Bild-Zeitung".

Author: Achilleus7
Date: 05-03-2008, 16:58

Well I did mean to be provocative and I expected a response from Luxemburg which I�m sure will arrive shortly. Your quite right I�m adding a subjective view into the debate not based purely on facts, i.e. the coefficient and results from head to heads between French and German clubs.

Factually you can�t be faulted, Lyon have won the Ligue 1 in 6 consecutive years and they may of achieved CL qualification on 8 consecutive occasions reaching the last 16 for the 5th time unlike FC Porto, Bayern, Juventus, Manchester United or Barcelona. But if they played in the same leagues as the teams you mention this record would be nowhere near as good. In fact they would struggle to qualify for the UEFA Cup some seasons playing in the EPL, Seria A or the Primera Liga so let�s keep those stats in perspective.

Anyway I�m glad my �measurements� made you laugh.

Author: Malko
Date: 05-03-2008, 17:09

Achilleus, I hope you are not thinking that in de Bundesliga, lyon would NOT have been champion for 6 consecutive years. They have beaten ALL the german championsof this period, and mostly with a big difference. Lyon would, in fact, in germany only have bayern to deal with.....and in France, now there is Bordeaux.

and, you say:

"Bayern Munich are a true giant of European football on the same plateau as the afore mentioned Inter, AC Milan and Juventus as well as Barcelona, Real Madrid, Man Utd and Liverpool.
"

i would rather say:

Bayern Munich WERE a true giant of European football on the same plateau as the afore mentioned Inter, AC Milan and Juventus as well as Barcelona, Real Madrid, Man Utd and Liverpool.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: saibot Date: 05-03-2008, 18:30	And why that? What exactly makes teams like Real or Juve a giant in contrast to Bayern? Neither Real nor Juve made it to a CL-Semifinal in the past 5 years, just like Bayern...

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: ferdi Date: 06-03-2008, 20:29	Anderlecht seems to be not that strong nowadays.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Overgame Date: 06-03-2008, 20:44	What makes me think that Lyon wouldn't be champion 6 times in a row in Germany ? The results. Lyon almost never win in important games (French cups, CL). We'll see sunday if that changes.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Overgame Date: 09-03-2008, 14:15	Well, when I check the teams who are probably going to qualify for the next european cups, i'd be surprised if France scores more than Germany :p And something really funny could be to see Paris in L2 AND in the UC :p

Author: Malko
Date: 09-03-2008, 19:16

Overgame, in France, for Championsleague, there would be Lyon, Bordeaux and...nancy. Even if nancy is not a big european team,....ask a little in schalke what they think of them. And nancy nowadays is beeing more experienced as when they threw Schalke out of UEFA-Cup.
In 4th place, there is Marseille (which would be actually UEFA-CUP). And there are still big teams in the Cups...so why shouldn't they make points next year?

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Tirion Date: 09-03-2008, 21:08	Yes Nancy won against Schalke. Sometimes I think that's your only argument. They lost in Gelsenkirchen and won at home, but after that they didn't accomplish a great run in UEFA CUP. A win against Krakau and Feyenoord, a draw against Basel and a loss against Blackburn and then out against Donezk. Nothing very impressive.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Overgame Date: 09-03-2008, 23:17	Nancy vs Schalke IS his only argument. He forgets the others results, past (nothing else last year i.e) or present (Toulouse 5th in UCGS, Bordeaux out against Anderlecht, i.e). Using that kind of argument, i can prove that Belgium is better than France (ask Bordeaux :p).

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 10-03-2008, 15:53	Hey overgame, i spoke about Nancy, cause nancy will probably qualify and some people think they are not as strong....they are.....they could beat schalke againif they play today. it's about same level. But Schalke was glad to qualify for Championsleague last year, nancy didnt......

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Overgame Date: 10-03-2008, 17:51	Nod nod, Nancy is so strong, that's probably why they don't play in Europe at all this season, while Schalke was able to win against Porto, a team who was first in a group with Liverpool (Toulouse ?) and Marseille. The 15th in L1 is able to qualify for the CL 1/4, that's probably why we don't see them.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 11-03-2008, 14:45	Overgame, to play in European Cups 2007/08, you have to qualify first in 2006/07. schalke did, Nancy didn't. Now, these days, in this season, both teamshave a similar ranking in their leagues. So they should be considered in a similar streght, and European results cannot count in this, cause one of them cannot prove it.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Overgame Date: 11-03-2008, 18:56	Again Nancy is third in a league where only one team is left in Europe, while Schalke is in CL 1/4 and a few german are still in UC. Again, your only argument is 'Nancy won versus Schalke last year. Again, is i'm using a similar argument, Belgium >> France. And, again finaly, if you cannot qualify for Europe, you are not strong enough to be in CL 1/4.

Author: Cirdan
Date: 11-03-2008, 22:00
Edited by: Cirdan
at: 11-03-2008, 22:02

stupid discussion at this point... All arguments were allready pointed out and it's not enough to make a final statement about how both leagues compare, the best we can say is that they were roughly equal in the recent past (=last 5 seasons) in the European competitions... I'll throw in my opinion anyway on the Schalke-Nancy-comparison anyway.

It's very questionable to argue that the Bundesliga and thus Schalke is stronger than Ligue 1 based on this season alone, the coefs were the same for years, and the head-to-head-results were just as inconclusive over the last couple of years (see OLs post somewhere above)

And looking at Schalkes impressive quaterfinal appearance this season, to be honest, it has a lot to do with luck... they lost and drew each of their main competitors Valencia and Chelsea in group stage, and only advanced to the knock out stage because of Valencias failure to beat Rosenborg just once, that's not impressive. And then they drew the weakest group winner, won in a decent performance at home, but needed a world class match of their goalie to get into the quaters on penalties... I doubt that they will even qualify for next years CL, currently Bayern, Werder, HSV and Leverkusen all look stronger than Schalke.

Is Schalke stronger than the French 3rd Nancy at the moment? I have no idea, but since we have only the current season that would indicate that the Bundesliga teams are stronger than Ligue 1 teams, I doubt it. For the future development I'd bet on Schalke, mainly for financial reasons, partly as discussed above, but especially true comparing the second richest club of the Bundesliga with a team that's not even among Frances rich clubs, but this season and probably next season? No idea.

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 11-03-2008, 22:34

Thanks Cirdan.

In my opinion, there is a real significant difference between the 2 leagues.

The Bundesliga is able to keep the German internationals, while the Ligue 1 is not.
Whatever the reasons that can explain this situation (money / taxes, exposure, prestige), if you're not able to keep your own international players, you have very little chances to attract the best foreign players, and thus almost no chance to be among the best.

Well, some might argue that the youth academies are still pretty efficient to produce some good young players (e.g. the famous 87 generation) and thus to help keep a decent level, but the truth is that those young players leave the Ligue 1 earlier and earlier.
How much time will Benzema, Ben Arfa or Nasri stay in France? Almost half of the U21 team is already playing abroad (namely in England) whereas those kids have even not proven anything yet (the best 3 named above already play in the A selection).

The only solution for the French clubs is to concentrate their strengths on quite a few clubs so that those become an obvious solution for the careers of the young promising players, but it's not likely to happen very soon as the hierarchy is not stable and there is a huge amount of jalousy towards Lyon in France (Lyon are at best respected in France but have never been liked, a bit like Chelsea in England).

Typically, Martseille refused before the WC an offer of 30mio of Lyon for Ribery to finally accept a 26 mio offer from Bayern the following season because it would be unthinkable for Marseille to sell their best player to Lyon. At the same time, Werder sold Klose to Bayern.

Anyway, football has never been an exact science, so it's not impossible that French clubs get some decent results some years. After all, the good 2004 season (2 finalists - Monaco and Marseille) came after the 2003 disaster.
If France have a chance to organize the Euro 2016, then it will create another boom for our football (the same that was generated in 1998 or in 2006 in Germany), but hopefully we will not have to wait until 2016 to have some satisfactions.

Author: Overgame
Date: 12-03-2008, 00:00

I don't know "who is better", and that's probably a question without a clear answer.

The 2 countries are sending the same number of teams every year, and every year they're scoring almost the same score (with the exception of 2004). That's probably a good indicator.

But i'm tired to hear the same argument from Malko every 2 posts. I checked how many different teams were sent by both countries in the different Cups over the last 5 years.

CLGS

France : Lyon - Marseille - Bordeaux - Lille - Monaco - PSG. Total 5.
Germany : Stuttgart - Schalke - Bremen - Bayern - Hamburger - Leverkusen. Total 6.

Toulouse was out in CLqR3.
Dortmund was out in CLqR3.

UC

France : Sochaux - Rennes - PSG - Bordeaux - Lens - Nancy - Auxerre - Strasbourg - Chateauxroux - Toulouse. Total : 10.

Germany : Nurberg - Bayern - Leverkusen - Frankfurt - Schalke - Hertha - Stuttgart - Mainz - Bochum - Aachen - Kaiserlautern - Dortmund. Total : 11.

IT

France : Lens - Auxerre - Marseille - Lille. Total 4.
Germany : Hertha - Hamburger - Lille. Total 3.

Number of differents teams :
France : 14
Germany : 13

Bundesliga isn't less competitive at all.

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 12-03-2008, 00:55

yes, but nodoby said that competition meant quality.

The Premier League is one of the least competitive league in Europe as the Big 4 trust (almost) every honour every year and I don't have the feeling that it is the worst league in Europe.

The French League is assumed to be one of the most competitive in Europe (look at Toulouse in process of being relegated whereas they played the CL QR3 this season and this is just an exemple among other) and it's not the best. To some extent, competition is a sign of weakness as it means that the so-called big clubs are unable to be consistent year after year. They thus cannot be considered as big clubs.
Portugal, Holland and to some extent Russia and Romania have very decent results in Europe, because their big clubs play the European Cups every year. Not only they acquire the necessary experience (and money and exposure) to have decent results, but with a cup system, you can always expect to the necessay piece of luck that sometimes helps you making great achievements. If you play the European cups once every 3 years, you have 3 times less chances to get that little piece of luck.

Author: Cirdan
Date: 12-03-2008, 01:11
Edited by: Cirdan
at: 12-03-2008, 01:15

"Typically, Martseille refused before the WC an offer of 30mio of Lyon for Ribery to finally accept a 26 mio offer from Bayern the following season because it would be unthinkable for Marseille to sell their best player to Lyon. At the same time, Werder sold Klose to Bayern."

Well... that isn't as easy as it reads in this post... Werder was pretty much forced to sell Klose, since he had only 1 season left in his contract and the whole situation caused a big buzz in Germany, had they forced him to stay another year, it would most likely have created a lot of friction in Werders team.

There's a lot of other, better examples however (of their current squad Marcell Jansen, Lukas Podolski, van Buyten, Lucio, Z� Roberto and Kahn were bought from other Bundesliga teams without many problems, not including Bosman transfers and players who had fixed transfer fees in their contracts), but I think part of the problem is that Bayern is much richer more prestigous than Lyon for the players... It can have negative consequences if a player wants to go to Bayern but is not allowed, and there are not many clubs that can afford to turn down a Bayern offer (but I guess apart from Marseille there are not many French clubs that could refuse a 10mio+ offer from Lyon either...)

And finally: it should be noted that the Bundesliga does lose stars and prospects to the EPL, too... atm most notably Ballack, Berbatov, Voronin, Hamann and Lehmann plus Kevin-Prince Boateng in the "unproved prospects" department. But I guess it's a bigger problem in France.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 12-03-2008, 08:45

"The French League is assumed to be one of the most competitive in Europe (look at Toulouse in process of being relegated whereas they played the CL QR3 this season"
Weel. last season, HSV played CL-Q3 and lost, and was halfway the season also on a relegation spot. Despite winning 4 out of the next 6 matches, they were still just 3 points away from the relegation zone. Looking at last year, the Bundesliga was very competitive too.
In general I think of French and German league as pretty equal, like it also shows in European coefficient ranking. One year one is better, the other year the other. Somehow the French however have less cups in their history as the Germans, and therefor has less "big names" Lyon is building one right now, but that''s ony the last 6 years. Bayern is doing that already for 40 years.. Names like Leverkusen and Dortmund come and go, like Marseille and Bordeaux

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 12-03-2008, 11:25
Edited by: Lyonnais
at: 12-03-2008, 11:46

it's a bit outside the topic but just to reply to this

There's a lot of other, better examples however (of their current squad Marcell Jansen, Lukas Podolski, van Buyten, Lucio, Z� Roberto and Kahn were bought from other Bundesliga teams without many problems, not including Bosman transfers and players who had fixed transfer fees in their contracts), but I think part of the problem is that Bayern is much richer more prestigous than Lyon for the players... It can have negative consequences if a player wants to go to Bayern but is not allowed, and there are not many clubs that can afford to turn down a Bayern offer (but I guess apart from Marseille there are not many French clubs that could refuse a 10mio+ offer from Lyon either...)

it's not only a question of money or prestige, because Lyon are rich and prestigious enough to attract a French player who just got his first cap in the selection at that time. Lyon made a better offer than Bayern and Rib�ry claimed on TV that he wanted to join Lyon - Marseille replying afterwards that they would never let him go.

The following year, he claimed all season long that he wanted to leave Marseille to a club who will play the CL (meaning Lyon). When he was then asked why he left Marseille (qualified for the CL) to Bayern who will not play the CL, he then said that it was a 3-party agreement between the 2 clubs and him. A political way to say that Marseille didn't give him the choice.
This said, it seems that he cannot blame anymore Marseille for forcing him to go to Bayern.

Author: Malko
Date: 12-03-2008, 12:23

First, let's say, that if a topic here is about 4th and 5th UEFA-Ranking, it is NORMAL that we argue about the strenght of French and German leagues......

Now, let me say again what I already said:

1) We will see in the next 2-3-4 years what will happen. Just this season is't enough

2) My PERSONAL opinion is that Ligue1 is stronger than Bundesliga. I do not figure out, everybody shares my opinion.

Author: krasste
Date: 12-03-2008, 14:59

http://de.eurosport.yahoo.com/11032008/73/bundesliga-ribery-zidane.html

"Bei Bayern ist alles so exzellent organisiert. Das kann man nicht mit einem Klub in der Ligue 1 vergleichen. Ich kann mir nicht vorstellen, noch einmal bei einem franz�sischen Verein zu unterschreiben - nicht einmal bei Lyon", stellt Ribery klar."

What he says is that he can?t imagine to sign with a french team anymore. The organization @ Bayern is not comparable with any Ligue 1 team.
I think hes quite happy with his "choice" after all.
I?m not a Ligue 1 fan, but followed some matches of OM after the WC, where he really impressed. Now he is even better, improving from match to match, more effective goal/assist-wise and very spectacular.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 12-03-2008, 15:48	krasste, like I often said, Ribery could say : "Bayern is giving me more many than any team in Ligue1. I don't think I'll play in Ligue 1 again....." That suits better to Ribery than anything else. It is clear either, that in the Bundesliga, a player like Ribery is an exception, technically. In France, there are several like that and he would not be the star he is in munich.

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 12-03-2008, 18:49

and I strongly doubt that Ribery would say to a German media that his dream is to come back to France (or go elsewhere) even if he meant it.
He's not a very clever guy (I guess that you agree with me) but he already understood some few things in terms of communication.

This said, I don't deny that he certainly won't come back anymore to France now. Should he leave Bayern, he's more likely to go to a top-3 country rather than in France.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Overgame Date: 12-03-2008, 19:27	Only one thing is almost sure : Germany will be in front of France for at least 2-3 seasons. P.S. Marseille is about the same level than Bayern ? :lol:

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: honesty Date: 12-03-2008, 19:29	Russia is closing.

Author: krasste
Date: 12-03-2008, 20:03
Edited by: krasste
at: 12-03-2008, 20:06

I dont wanna get involved in your fight here, its not my business at all. Just read this article the last days and wanted to share it with you. The original article can be found here:
http://www.lequipe.fr/Football/breves2008/20080311_074855Dev.html
So hes talking to the french press

He shares my opinion that every club in France compared to Bayern is a step back. And ofc this is about money too, here youre right Malko. And im sure Sagnol or Lizarazu will tell you the same.
That Ribery wouldnt be an outstanding player in France made me smile a bit

When he arrived at Bayern he maybe wasnt, but im sure hell show his skills in the CL next season too. Imho he really improves every match.
@Overgame: "P.S. Marseille is about the same level than Bayern ? :lol:"
In the interview he says: Rib�ry compare cette exp�rience � celle qu'il a v�cue � l'OM. Le Bayern, c'est �Marseille puissance 10� jure-t-il.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Zhund0r Date: 12-03-2008, 20:25	Well, after the out of Marseille, Germany can get a very good advantage for the next few years. Schalke, Leverkusen and Bayern are through. Let's see what Werder can do tomorrow. Germany could possibly get a better coefficient than Spain this year. That is just amazing! (But not that amazing like England ^^ - thats almost unbelievable)

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Ricardo Date: 12-03-2008, 20:30	Marseilles loss closed France worst year in years. It must be a long time ago since they were out in all quarters......

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 12-03-2008, 20:35 Edited by: Malko at: 12-03-2008, 20:36	"Le Bayern, c'est �Marseille puissance 10� jure-t-il." That makes him a very sympathetic guy, isn't it? A gentleman would never say those words..... ...and, marseille would beat Bayern actually, but unfortunately, there will be no such game....or is there anything in the world that makes you think Bayern is stronger than Saint-Petersburg? I do not see anything!

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Cirdan Date: 12-03-2008, 20:51	My French is more than a bit rusty, but I think that was more related to the media buzz than team quality, considering that's what the rest of the paragraph is about? Anyway... a statement like there is nothing that would speak for Bayern against Zenit makes me laugh... for everyone, not just the Germans, Bayern are THE big favourites of this years UC.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Zhund0r Date: 12-03-2008, 21:17	lol Malko, you make yourself ridiculous. And you are not even a french citizen?! Every statement about you is a waste of time.. But you are right! OM is the best team in the world, yes! And Lyon would be the best team in every league!! rofl

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: honesty Date: 13-03-2008, 21:19	With a normal year Romania would've been in front of France next year.

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 13-03-2008, 21:57
Edited by: Lyonnais
at: 13-03-2008, 22:09

read on France Football, Germany can really become the competitor of the Premier League
link in French

Google Translation:

Questioned Thursday by L'Equipe TV, the economist Frederic Bolotny said that Germany had the economic potential certainly the most likely to compete with England in the coming years. "If you look at their economic potential then Germany will really become more efficient at sports, analyzed Mr Bolotny. They have really taken advantage of the World Cup to make available to their clubs truly modern stadiums, which are profit centres. Germany can compete with the Premier League in the coming years. "

France? The economist at the Center of Law and Economics of Sport in Limoges is more sceptical, even if its message is encouraging. "French Football is experiencing an upturn in the next few years, one might think. The TV rights are secured at the same level for four years. The problem of french football is that the rights TVs accounted for almost 60% of resources. Today, what is lacking, are the stadiums. There are many projects stages: in Le Mans, one of Grenoble has been delivered, in Lille, Valenciennes, the list goes on ... This will enable the clubs, eventually, within four or five years to put in place an economic model a little more balanced. Now, it is not France which is really the true competitor of the Premier League. "

A difference of one to three between France and England

The real competition will come from isolated clubs, "the big Italian clubs, and the two or three big Spanish clubs," he said. Italy is likely to toe the line, warns Frederic Bolotny. "They could really suffer, we must not forget that the crowds in Italy have been divided by two. There are around 20,000 spectators in the stadiums in Italy, compared to 40,000 just six years ago. "

Competitors should however not forget that English clubs are "in a so-called virtuous circle" and could perpetuate their overwhelming domination. "To give some figures, the average budget of an English club today - I do not speak of the biggest clubs who operate in Champions League - the average budget of 130 million euros. In Italy, there is 70, 66 in Spain, 64 in Germany and France, 45. "Friday, the draw for the Champions League will be played between four English clubs, Spanish, Italian, German ... A Turk.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Zhund0r Date: 13-03-2008, 23:23	Sounds interesting, but I doubt that the Bundesliga could compete with the EPL. The english teams are getting much more money from TV market... In Germany you have 4 million pay tv customers (Premiere) and in England there are 8 million..

Author: garfield335
Date: 14-03-2008, 16:33

@Malko

Et ass keng Franseich Mannschaft mei dran. Waat sees du dozou?
Villeicht kannn Bayern net geint Zenit gewannen (Mir w�rden et villeicht an der halwer Final gesinn) Awer eppes steet fest. Marseille huet geint Zenit verluer.

Frankreich verleiert dest Joer gaanz vill Punkten an der 5-Johreswertung an se mussen oppassen dass dei joeren drop net vu Russland iwwerholl ginn. Se w�rden dei n�chst 2-3 joer hannert D�itschland sinn, villeicht �nnert daat sech nees an 4-5 Joer, mee daat kann een elo nach net wessen.

Bayern mat Marseille ze vergleichen ass l�cherlech.
Bayern M�nchen huet den Moment 120.000 Clubmitglieder. Se hunn hieren Stadion all Match ausverkaaf (69.900 Zuschauer), Et mus emmer Meint am viraus Ticketen reserveieren, am Fanartikel verkaaf sinn se op der 2ter Plaatz an Europa, am Merchandising an Sponsoring sinn se och extrem gudd vertrueden. Daat eenzegt waat fehlt sinn TV-Einnahmen, dei sinn zu aanescht nach emmer mei heich wei an D�itschland. Hieren Emsaatz w�rd och dest Joer nees kr�fteg klammen, obwuel se net an der UCL matspillen. An dann hieren neien Stadion, deen hinnen den moment zu 80% geheiert, Marseille h�tt guer net daat Kapital fir sech sou een Stadion ze leeschten.

Waat huet Marseille unzebidden?

Author: garfield335
Date: 14-03-2008, 16:45
Edited by: garfield335
at: 14-03-2008, 16:47

@all (Resume of my precedant post)

There are no French Teams in the Quarters, Bayern could probably not win against Zenit, we will see this perhaps at the semifinals, but one thing i know Marseille has lost against Zenit

French will loose a lot of pounts in the country ranking. They will loose their 4th place and they mus pay attention that they don't loose place 5th against Russia.
For the next 2 year Germany will have more points then France, perhaps this will change in a few years again. Nobody knows it.

You cant compare Bayern with Marseille. Bayern has 120.000club members an is the second biggest club in Europe (behind Barcelona) They have an attendance of 69.900 Spectators in average. A capacity utilisation of 100%. It is very hard to get Tickets for a game. They are number 2 in europe in merchandising and sponsoring. The only have less money from the TV-market. They have the allianz arena, which is now Bayern Munich own stadium. Are any club in France, who have the money to build a stade like this?
The Revenue of Bayern increases every year. They are under the 10richest clubs in Europe. The revenue will also growth this year without any Championsleague participation.

An what about Marseille?

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: garfield335 Date: 14-03-2008, 16:52	Perhaps the team of Bayern didn't play well the last season. But this season they are back. and with this team they could also compete in UCL with the big clubs from England, Spain. They have spend this season 80Million Euros in new players. (Ribery, Klose, Toni, Jansen, De Sosa, Breno, Altintop, Schlaudraff, ...) They will be back in UCL next season and then we will see,

Author: Malko
Date: 15-03-2008, 13:23

Garfield, wars du schon emol zu marseille am stadion? Dat as op d'mannst su spektakul�r wi zu M�nchen, wi zu Dortmund g�if ech soen. de Ribery as de baeschte Spiller bei bayern, bei Marseille war hien och gudd, awer net su en held wi an der Bundesliga. Obschons di dest Joer e super-Joer spillen (mee si hun nach net g�int grouss Ekippe gespillt, mer gesi jo lo bei schalke), an och wann d'fransousen hir Saison dest Joer an de Sand gesat hun, as awer nach e Quzalit�itsoennescheed toeschent der L1 an der Bundesliga, an dee gesi mir l�tzebuerger all Weekend.Do as Frankreich awer nach weitaus mi interessant a flott wi d'Bundesliga. An dofir soen ech och, datt marseille geint Bayern och kann d'Nues uewe behalen. A wa baywern an der Liga mat lyon g�if spillen, g�ifen se souwisou och den 2. Pr�is h�chstens kr�ien. lyon huet nach all daitsche Meeschter heemgesch�ckt, an do war Bayern och schons dob�i.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Lusankya Date: 15-03-2008, 14:00	Maybe Ribery is a big Star in the Bundesliga, because he is much better now than he was during his time in Marseille? Btw, didn't he score the "goal of the Year" or something similiar in France?

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Overgame Date: 15-03-2008, 14:03	Bundesliga is so weak, they cannot put a team in 1/4. Or is it L1 ?

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 15-03-2008, 15:20	Overgame, WHo is in quarterfinals and who not has a lot to do with the drawing. Just change Schalke-Porto and Lyon-Manchester to Lyon-Porto and Schalke-manchester, and Bundesliga has no team iN quarterfinals of Championsleague. Just a matter of drawing.....

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Zhund0r Date: 15-03-2008, 15:55	Malko, why do you think there is a as good atmosphere in Marseille as in Munich or Dortmund? The V�lodrome is wide open without a roof and not very modern (built in 1937).. in addition to that only 60.000 seats. If I compare it with the Allianz Arena or the Signal Iduna Park (Westfalenstadion)................................. lol

Author: Overgame
Date: 15-03-2008, 16:19

Nod, the french teams have bad draws in the last 4 years, that's why they got no team in quarter in UC and only Lyon twice in CL.

Please, stop to act like 'Calimero'. French teams are not good enough to reach the last stages of a cup without the perfect conditions. Once or twice every 5 years, a team meet those conditions and is able to reach a semi or a final, but that's all.

Frankly, look at the last 4 years, and check who has eliminated the french teams. Some big names or good teams, but many 'small' teams, like : (2007) Panionios, FC K�benhavn, Rennes and Toulouse out in 2 easy groups, Anderlecht. Don't whine about the draws when Portugal faced a german team 5 or 6 times, Italian teams got some english teams 3-4 times, etc.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Overgame Date: 15-03-2008, 16:20	Oh, Malko, i'm not only talking about CL, but about UC too. Check when was the last times we saw a french team in quarter.

Author: Malko
Date: 15-03-2008, 16:43

Overgame, anyways.....German teams had very bad seasons too, and this year a good-one. Next year, it can be different again. In direct confrontations France vs germany, the german teams are no more the favorites, in the Champions-Confrontation, they have become real outsiders vs the franch Champion, even bayern.

Concerning Le V�lodr�me, even built when Zundhor said, he was completely renovated in 1998...has 60 000 places (and Munich has not more saets!).....and there will be 80 000 and a roof soon. look here......

http://s.om.net/om/image/article/illustration/7/1266.jpg

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Zhund0r Date: 15-03-2008, 16:46 Edited by: Zhund0r at: 15-03-2008, 16:50	Bayern has 70000 and one of the most modern stadiums of the world

Author: Overgame
Date: 15-03-2008, 16:54

Nod Germany had bad seasons. But frankly, read yourself, and explain us how a country, with :

-Lyon better than any german team.
-Marseille equals to the best german team.
-A top5 better than the 2nd german team.

has played only 2 quarters in the last 4 years, and 0 in the last 2.

Again, a french team is good enough to beat some good teams, but not good enough to always win against small teams. That's the difference.

Author: gukfva
Date: 15-03-2008, 18:30
Edited by: gukfva
at: 15-03-2008, 18:58

Interesting discussion with many aspects.
In my opinion French and German teams are on equal FOOTBALL level at this time and I wish to write only about football results (organization, stadiums, attendance, sponsors - all for Germany with no doubt).

FRANCE:
Ol. Lyon have been very very tremendous team for 6 years. They achieve great results in Europe (2006: PSV 1-0 & 4-0, 2005: Werder 3-0 & 7-2), moreover 6 consecutive titles in Ligue 1.
There were no challengers from Germany, who could win against Ol. Lyon. Nowadays I guess that Bayern Munich could, because Lyon are slightly down in the dumps.
Of course other French clubs are not so strong like Lyon. Even average level is presented by Ol. Marseille, Girondins, Monaco, Nancy, Lille, etc. These clubs might defeat Germans, but with difficulty and some luck.

GERMANY:
After three bad years Bayern increase. The best German team, probably on a level with Lyon. We will see next season, when Bayern will take part in the Champions League.
HSV, Bayer, Schalke & Werder - 4 contenders to be great European teams, but still they must build their position. Bayer have an ideal chance to achieve UEFA Cup and, thanks to that, return to the elite.
If they do it, I will say that Germany is currently above.

You must remember that everything is floating.
2000 -> Spain rules absolutely (Barca, Real & Valencia in CL semifinals)
2003 -> similar case with Italy (Inter, Milan & Juve in CL semifinals)
2007 - 2008 -> English domination (constantly four great teams, when other giant countries have only 1-2)

Next examples:
Romanian performance and Dutch fluctuation.

... so you could begin the topic, which title would be: "1st place (England vs. Spain)".

PS. A little curiosity:
Today Energie Chociebuz - club from the foot of the table - defeated Bayern with all their stars

Author: Malko
Date: 16-03-2008, 11:11

I think that less French teams got in finals than germans the last...10 years is a fact, that in France, every year, other teams participate in European Cups. lyon got its recognition and experience by 7-8 consecutive participations. Maybe Lille would have been the team competing with leverkusen this year (i see similitudes), but Lille, after 3 years of participation, didn't manage to qualify in its country....and this experience doesn't count for France this year. Similar things happend with auxerre, nantes, Lens......

Why do so many people think Lyon is less good than the last years? they got to 1/8 or 1/4-finals all year, like this one. They played a less good group-stage, but isn't that what great teams often do? I do not think they are less good than the last years.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Cirdan Date: 16-03-2008, 11:41 Edited by: Cirdan at: 16-03-2008, 11:46	Because a) Lyon lost Malouda, Abidal, Tiago, Diarra, Houllier in the summer and b) compared to last years their CL group stage was disappointing (0-3 to Rangers at home, only 1 point in 2 matches against Barca) and c) the league was open longer than in the last years, of course in parts because Bordeaux was strong, but also because Lyon did make a few less points.

Author: Overgame
Date: 16-03-2008, 11:59

And, again, Malko tries to explain why France doesn't score a lot with the old "french teams cannot qualify every year because the L1 is strong, but they can easily do it in Germany", but when i check the number of teams sent by both countries in the last years, i get :

Number of differents teams :
France : 14
Germany : 13

Well, an old false excuse again, like the DNCG (PSG has a deficit of 18M �, why aren't they in L2 yet ?).

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Cirdan Date: 16-03-2008, 12:23	I doubt that PSG is anywhere near the deficit some Bundesliga clubs were a couple of years ago (esp Dortmund, who were seconds away from bancrupcy in the middle of the season, but also Schalke, Hertha and some others...)

Author: Overgame
Date: 16-03-2008, 13:10

Cirdan : sorry, i should have explained more

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 16-03-2008, 13:42
Edited by: Lyonnais
at: 16-03-2008, 13:50

Many supporters of the french league said things like 'with a european DNCG, the big clubs of the big3 would play in lower divisions because they have a deficit' as an excuse to the poor results of the L1 teams, adding that the french teams don't have any financial problem.

well, the truht is that 19 clubs out of 20 are profitable (everybody but PSG) because of the DNCG who prevent clubs to spend more than they earn and I doubt that this is the case everywhere (and I also doubt that the Bundesliga is the worst).
Chelsea were able to buy Drogba, Essien and Malouda (among others) with unlimited funds, but their annual loss of around 100 mios is higher than the budget of most French clubs (all clubs but Lyon really).

I mention Chelsea, but I could also mentioned the Berlusconi government whose 'Calcio laws' de facto erased the debts of Italian giants (especially to the Italian state and social services). Well, as a French citizen, I'm happy that the taxes I pay do not help French clubs to avoid taxation like in Italy, but still, you cannot deny that the competition is not fair.

I don't mind the DNCG, and I think that their work is necessary, but I really believe that the competition is not fair in Europe and that French clubs suffer from it.
This said, football is not only financials and I agree that this issue, although perfectly valid, is just an issue among others.

Coming back to the Bordeaux-Anderlecht game, you perfectly know that Bordeaux didn't play with their best team. I don't say that it's right to do this, I don't say that it's an excuse for losing (this elimination is a shame for Bordeaux anyway) and it certainly doesn't mean to minimize Anderlecht success (after all, they don't care and they played well), but please stop making assessment about French football because of this game. This is not only ridiculous but it becomes a bit irritating.
Ps: I don't believe that Bordeaux complained about the 2 red cards. In contrary, Laurent Blanc just said after the game that he was happy to avoid playing extra-time (another proof of the great motivation of Bordeaux).
Anyway, I don't know why i'm replying to this.

Author: Overgame
Date: 16-03-2008, 16:38

Please, i'm not Malko, i don't put all my argumentation on a single game.

Bordeaux was the most recent example, but we could talk about Lens-K�benhavn, Sochaux-Panionios, Rennes in GS, Toulouse in GS and Marseille against Zenit.

But, about Bordeaux, when they win their 4 games in GS, you don't hear anything about a B-squad. I've checked the players between the return against Anderlecht and the game 3 days laters with Lille : 11 out 14 players in common.

The truth is simple : Blanc was using the rotation system used in big clubs, but the supporters used the excuse "B-squad" to justify an elimination. That's all.

About the ref, do you want some links ? Like on yahoo (questions/reponses) 'Vous avez d�ja vu un arbitrage � l'ext�rieur ?', some posts on Lens' forum, or on Bordeaux's forum ? Or a few comments on Sportvox ?

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 16-03-2008, 17:37

Please, i'm not Malko

are you sure?
try to think about this.

So you think that resting players like Cavenaghi, Wendel and Micoud is just a normal rotation. Just an assumption, imagine that MAnU rest Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez for the game vs. Roma. Do you think that their team would be as strong as with them? if it's true for such a big club, you would agree I guess that it's all the more true for a club that have much less deep squad.

Even the coach of Anderlecht made irony about this. However, what he didn't understand is that Bordeaux didn't underestimate Anderlecht, Bordeaux simply made the assessment that the game vs. Lille in the league was much more important for the club than the one vs. Anderlecht.
When you have a good chance to play the CL next season, you try to preserve all your chances. I don't say that it's a good policy, I don't defend it, but it's a fact that the UEFA Cup doesn't bring money and it's much more important for the club to qualify for the CL.

Author: Overgame
Date: 16-03-2008, 17:53
Edited by: Overgame
at: 16-03-2008, 18:01

And that's probably why we saw Cave and Micoud in the second half.

If Blanc really wanted to rest them, he wouldn't have :

-Bring them in Brusell for the 1st leg.
-Bring them for the 2nd leg.
-Make them play during the 2nd half.

Here an example for Manchester : Manchester-Fulham. No Ronaldo, no Rooney at the beggining of the game. Do this game isn't really important for Manchester ? http://www.eurosport.fr/football/premiership/2007-2008/livefullpage_mtc195854.s
html

And if they didn't really care about the game, they wouldn't be so aggressive during the whole game.

Again, the same excuse : "we lost because we haven't tried to win. If we did, we'd have easily won".

Author: garfield335
Date: 17-03-2008, 12:51

I think it funny when Malko is trying to compare a club with 130.000club members (the second biggest sports club in the world after Barcelona)

with a team like Lyon or Marseille.

Lyon and Marseille, won nothing in the last 10 years. Marseille have won in 1993 the UCL, but everybody knows the story of Marseille and the victory of 1993.
Lyon has only luck to be in a league, where it is easy to win.

@Malko
Den Stadion zu Marseille ass mol net iwwerdacht, an mei wei 58.000 Leit waren nach nie dobannen. Bei deenen meeschten Matcher kommen awer nemmen hallew souvill Leit. Zu M�nchen mus een schon 3 Meint am viraus ticketen bestellen fir iwwerhaapt ee Spill gucken kennen ze goen, wou awer 69.900 Leit an de Stadion passen.
Bundesliga hat firun per Joer och eng Saison dei se an de Sand gesat hunn, wou se praktesch alleguer dei 1Ronn erausgeflunn waren. Daat schlecht Joer f�llt awer elo aus der Wertung. Franzousen w�rten hier schlecht Ergebnis nach 5 Joer mat sech ronderem schleefen.
Ech gesinn als Letzebuerger nemmen eppes, dass a Frankreich keng gudd Ennerhalung gebuede gett. N�ischt spektakul�res, n�ischt besonneges.
Et sprecht och net wierklich fir den franseiche Fussball wann ee Club wei Lyon 7 mol hannerdeneen Meeschter gett. Do mussen dei dei hannendru kommen, wierklech schlecht sinn.
Deng Oflehnung geigeniwwer dem d�itschen Fussball baseiert nemmen op Fremdenhass.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: JC71 Date: 17-03-2008, 14:12	@garfield335 The most widely supported football club is Sport Lisboa e Benfica, Portugal, which has 160,398 paid-up members. The record was acknowledged on 9 November 2006 during the celebrations for Guinness World Records Day.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Zhund0r Date: 17-03-2008, 15:34	Only the football club or the whole?

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: JC71 Date: 17-03-2008, 15:43	I don't know, but Benfica isn't only a football club.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Cirdan Date: 17-03-2008, 19:02	Bayern and Barca aren't only football clubs either (despite the FC)

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: bert.kassies Date: 17-03-2008, 19:53	@garfield335 The language on this forum is English. Please don't use other languages.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Kaiser Date: 17-03-2008, 20:13	The language on this forum is English. Please don't use other languages. Forum 1 doesn't have private message function. So I suppose using the non-English language equals to PM

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: badgerboy Date: 17-03-2008, 20:18	Please don't be cheeky to Bert & get banned Kaiser. Who would run your prediction game then...

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Kaiser Date: 17-03-2008, 20:20	badgerboy My post above was correct. I didn't use abusive language, didn't insult anyone. And I wasn't 'cheeky to Bert', etc. ps. I see you don't like my game if you want me to 'get banned'

Author: Malko
Date: 19-03-2008, 17:14

well Garfield, you may, as everyone, watch what you like. me, as a luxembourger, seeing franch, belgian and german football on TV, find that the french is the most spectacular of the three. but, I do not know if you have Canal Plus, cause you have to, to see Ligue1 as you should see. german TV gives a lot of Bundesliga in free-TV, Franch TV, like the 3 other big Leagues, doen.t and you have to pay for seeing it. so, many Luxemburgers see more Bundesliga than Franch football on TV, but going to Strasbourg, to sochaux,to nancy to Sedan even and the last month again to Metz, you see very spectacular football. Since Pouliquen is coach in metz, it is a very offensive play and Metz wouldn't be last if Pouiliquen was there from the beginning. and Metz of course wouldn't be last in bundesliga, teams like Duisburg can not reach this level of game. But again, in Luxembourg, there is a Sportschau-Tradition, and it's diffucult to erase.....

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Overgame Date: 19-03-2008, 17:42	Lol ... Everyone in France complains about seeing a league too defensive, but Malko wants to make us believe that L1 is very offensive ....

Author: Cirdan
Date: 19-03-2008, 18:46
Edited by: Cirdan
at: 19-03-2008, 18:53

Well, maybe Malko thinks defensive football is spectacular

It's an undeniable fact that the Bundesliga produces a lot of goals: at the moment the average this season is 2.76 per match, one of the lower Bundesliga averages looking at the last 10 years, but still higher than the EPL (2.6), La Liga (2.6), Serie A (2.6), Ligue 1 (2.2! one of the lowest worldwide...) and most other professional football leagues leagues in the world (the only notable exceptions are currently Mexico and Holland). see: here, for the Bundesliga you can find one more position after the comma at www.bundesliga.de

But more goals doesn't necessarily mean better football... EG in the 6:3 of Stuttgart against Bremen it had a lot to do with weak defending, but imho that certainly was spectacular

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 19-03-2008, 18:51	Overgame, see the scores in Ligue1 the last 2 days..........

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Cirdan Date: 19-03-2008, 18:54 Edited by: Cirdan at: 19-03-2008, 18:57	last 2 days mean nothing... look at md 18 & 19 in the Bundesliga, no 0:0, just 1 1:0 and 5 games with 5 or 6 goals. In general the scores in Ligue 1 have been very low for years. That's a fact, I've posted the link.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Cirdan Date: 19-03-2008, 19:02	btw, the last matchday in France had 2.8 goals per match... not bad, but for the Bundesliga it's only average, not good. Bundesliga md 18 & 19 had 3.3 and 3.4 goals per match, that's spectacular

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 21-03-2008, 09:34	Goals is good if fottball, but not everything. Spectacular saves by a keeper can be more attractive than a goal.......

Author: Cirdan
Date: 21-03-2008, 12:42

So, Lyonnais was wrong when he told me that the low goal average was largely caused by defensive tactics? And we Germans are wrong when we thought that the goalkeeper was the only position where we produced decent players for years, our keepers are actually crap and the reason for the high number of goals in the Bundesliga? Or is it the French strikers that are so bad in finishing they need loads of chances to score?

Well... again, where facts prove you wrong, you are finding excuses that you can't prove, but noone else can prove wrong (I wish statistics of shots on goal per match would be published...)

Again, I don't think a high number of goals is a sign of a good league, but with Ligue 1 being among the leagues with the least goals per match world wide, and the German with an above average number of goals, I find any statement that claims the French is the one that's more offensive very doubtful.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 21-03-2008, 15:58

I'm more convinced every day that Malko is simply a bit of a troll who looks winding up Germans.

One thing that surprises me more than a bit. Malko - you have been saying for years - ever since I started using this forum anyway - how much better French football is to German. Yet you still claim to watch both on a regular basis.

Surely with so many live games these days there's enough French football to keep you going. So why bother watching the German stuff at all if it's that much less enjoyable?

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 21-03-2008, 16:02	Hum, Cirdan, good Goalkeepers in germany? well, in fact, there are some, but there are also some which are not good at all. When i see sometimes just in European Cups, many defeats are due to goalkeeper-errors (and bremen is champion in this....)

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Overgame Date: 22-03-2008, 16:09	And, soon, Malko will explain us how strong are the GK in L1, when you can see the errors from Coupet or Landreau (1st and 2nd GK for the french national team). Bboy : yes, he's a troll.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 23-03-2008, 12:43	Overgame...this becomes ridiculous! Arguing Bundesliga has the Ligue1-level...yes, can be an interesting discusson, and it was... But now saying the goalies in Germany are on the level of the keepers in Ligue1, that's really not true...in NO way, the goalkeepers are probabbly the post, where Ligue 1 is the strongest (what doesn't mean that Domenech make good choices, he soesn't !!!!!).......

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Zhund0r Date: 23-03-2008, 13:10	Ligue 1 has 2 good goalkeepers: Landreau and Coupet. Bundesliga has a lot more: Kahn, Rost, Neuer, Adler, Enke, Wiese... Ligue 1 and good goalkeepers? Never heard of this rumour O.o

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 23-03-2008, 14:47	Zundhor...maybe cause you are not enough interested in it. There is Madanda, Janot and and and.....many more than in Bundesliga...but maybe I am not enough interested in that league.Even Marichez, Metzs goalkeeper, is a very good keeper and has nothing to do with Metz's last place.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Overgame Date: 23-03-2008, 16:18	Troll .....

Author: Malko
Date: 23-03-2008, 16:32
Edited by: Malko
at: 23-03-2008, 16:34

Overgame, of course you are German, listening to german media...and think really Bundesliga is Top in Goalkeepers. Well, look a little abroad and you'll see that's not6. Of course better than England,LOL. But in no way they can compare to what is in the cages in Ligue 1.But I'll stop this discussion now, cause it's getting ridiculous, and...away from UEFA-Rankings.Let's wait and see.....and if you prefer Wiese to Madanda, Adler to Janot......well, so do it.....it's your perfect right

Author: Overgame
Date: 23-03-2008, 18:25

Of course i'm belgian, of course i live in Charleroi (south part of Belgium) and of course i don't speak german (except for a few numbers, from 1 to 5, that's really useful in the pubs).

So, i'm a french talker. And, in France, they find their own league weak compared to the top3. And they find it too defensive ... If you speak french, that's really easy to find it yourself.

So, yes, you are a troll, like honesty. L1 is not strong, they are just better than average. Bundesliga is not strong, they are just better than average.

Who is better between Bundesliga and L1 ? Hard to say, and give me a definition of 'better' between 2 leagues. But, please, don't compare Marseille with Bayern, don't explain us how offensive is L1, etc.

Conclusion : Malko is a troll.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 24-03-2008, 10:52	well Overgame, than let's hope that Standard will do sth next year in Championsleague, cause I always loved belgian football in the eighties, when they played a great role with anderlecht, bruges, Malines...... Concerning french league, I hope you have seen Lyon-PSG yesterday...

Author: Achilleus7
Date: 25-03-2008, 17:08

Lyonnais wrote on 13-03-2008
===============================================
Questioned Thursday by L'Equipe TV, the economist Frederic Bolotny said that Germany had the economic potential certainly the most likely to compete with England in the coming years. "If you look at their economic potential then Germany will really become more efficient at sports, analyzed Mr Bolotny. They have really taken advantage of the World Cup to make available to their clubs truly modern stadiums, which are profit centres. Germany can compete with the Premier League in the coming years.
===============================================

I wrote on 27-02-2008
===============================================
I believe that Germany will settle in a comfortable 4th eventually. The Bundesliga has been a dormant giant as mentioned previously and I think they could challenge Italy for 3rd in a few years. I don�t believe German teams will regularly challenge in the Champions League like those of Italy but German teams take the UEFA Cup more seriously whereas in Italy the UEFA Cup as become unimportant.

Both the weight of history, which believe me has a bearing on future events, and domestic appetite for football are in Germany�s favour.

The appetite for football in France will never equal that of Germany�s and therefore the potential for Germany�s teams will in the long run be more than France�s. The average attendances after 8/9/10 games of the 2007/2008 season are;
(ref http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk )

Bundesliga 1 39,045
Bundesliga 2 17,785

Orange Ligue 1 21,329
Orange Ligue 2 7,012

When the Bundesliga finally wakes up, the TV audience revenue will only match the attendances at matches and therefore the financial potential from TV rights will be for the foreseeable future much higher in Germany than in France.

In France�s favour is the marvellous coaching system and incredible scouting system both home and abroad.
===============================================

The point I was making long ago which is backed up by the quote Lyonnais provided by Frederic Bolotny, is that the financial potential of the Bundesliga is far greater than that of Ligue 1. This Financial potential if ever realised fully will translate into a raising of standards in the Bundesliga and eventually improve Bundesliga teams efforts in Europe and as a result their coefficient.

To the credit of Ligue 1 they have been maximising their potential over recent years which is down to the scouting and coaching in France which as been second to none over that same period.

Since then the debate as gone onto who�s got the best goalkeepers, which league produces a higher goal average per match and all manor of side issues, mainly as a result of Malko clutching at anything that will prove his beloved Ligue 1 is better. It must make other French football fans cringe every time �De Gaulle Malko� adds a comment. I�m expecting an entry from Malko in the Topic �All teams from a country in quarter finals� that the reason France does not appear much in the excellent list provided by Gregoriak is because the grass is greener on French football pitches.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Overgame Date: 27-03-2008, 00:51	Man, i missed it !!! From me : "Funny :p I said that i'll stop to argue, so i won't, but comparing Marseille (a team who is not able to pass Porto) versus Bayern (who was in 1/4 last year with a desastrous season in Bundesliga) is the joke of the month From Malko ... Overgame, would Bayern pass Porto? i am not sure at all......." SCHALKE DID !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 27-03-2008, 13:24	Schalke did.....what has this to do with Bayern Munich??????????

Author: Overgame
Date: 27-03-2008, 14:04

If we follow your idea :

Except Munchen, no german team is good enough to end in the top5 in L1 (so, Munchen>rest of german teams), Munchen would not pass Porto (who passed Marseille) and Marseille is as strong as Munchen, but Schlke won against Porto.

So, let's summarize. Schalke is not strong enough to end in the top5 in L1, Marseille is not strong enough to win against Porto but Porto is out against Schalke. So, where would be Schalke and Porto in L1, adding that Munchen is stronger by Schalke ?

Am I missing something else ?

And don't say something like "everything can happen in one (two) games" when most of the teams from Portugal were out against teams from Germany.

Author: Malko
Date: 27-03-2008, 17:07

Overgame, you miss that football is not transitive : A bets B, B beats C, so a will beat C. That's not a fact.
The fact is that Ligue 1 is quite different to bundesliga and that bundesliga-Teams would have all problems in a whole season. Going from Rennes to Nizza is different than from Bremen to Dortmund. Other climate, other people living there, and so on and so on......France is multicultural, and you first have to deal with that. maybe schalke could beat Bordeaux in a game or two, but in a whole season, they would end behind...tha'ts what I am trying to explain you, but you do not seem to undersatnd, so i stop......

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: executor Date: 27-03-2008, 17:45	Yes, Overgame, why can't you see L1 is better? Like the rest of us

Author: Overgame
Date: 27-03-2008, 19:30

Yes football is not transitive. But, after a complete season, the best are in the top.

You are explaining why Schalke, a quarter-finalist in CL, wouldn't end in a european spot in France, when the french teams cannot be quarter-finalist in the UC. But let's check something fun : how many teams in CLR2.

2008 : Germany 1 - France 1
2007 : Germany 1 - France 2
2006 : Germany 2 - France 1
2005 : Germany 3 - France 2
2004 : Germany 2 - France 2

9-8 for GErmany, 5-3 if we forget about Lyon and Munchen. That's funny how most of the statistics are against you.

Let's summarize again : the teams ranked 2nd and 3rd in France need to struggle to pass the CLGS when, almost every year, a team outside Bayern can do it in Germany. Adding the fact that in the UC we almost never see a french team in later stage when you can almost everytime find a german team, i'm wondering how you can conclude "Werder, Schalke, Leverkusen, etc won't finish in top5 in France".

Author: Tirion
Date: 28-03-2008, 02:32

Because it's too hot in Nizza and Germans can't play in the heat. That's why they looked so bad this year against the southern countries like Portugal. It's really cold in Germany all the time even in summer. We all saw that 06 during the world cup when the temperature never rose above 40�C. At least not very often.
And because they have really bad Goalies, that's why no one wants German Keepers in any other European league, except maybe in Spain or England.
Furthermore the Competition in the Bundesliga is too small. There is every year only one Champion and always the same participants in CL and UEFA Cup. Over the last ten Years there have only been 5 different Champions in Germany 3 over the last 5 Years where there have been the unbelieveble number of 5 different champions in France and even 1 over the last 5. And Germany send only 13 different teams to the european cups while France send 14 which so much more.

And last but not least Nancy won against Schalke!

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Zhund0r Date: 28-03-2008, 08:44	This thread is kind of funny ^^ nice post, Tirion lol g

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 28-03-2008, 19:26	Summary. Most people here think germany will stay No4 and some even think they'll approach the big three. I think France will become Numer 3 again in 1-2 , latest 2-3 years, what will happen after...we'll see after

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Lusankya Date: 28-03-2008, 21:44	Number 3? Troll please go away.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: garfield335 Date: 28-03-2008, 22:42	I think Ligue1 will be at the 6th or 7th place in 3-4 years. Also Russia seems to get stronger than France

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 29-03-2008, 09:27	sorry this was MY mistkae. of course i wanted to say : NUMBER 4 in at last 3 years......

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 29-03-2008, 10:13

wikipedia says:
"A troll is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion."
"The term troll is highly subjective. Some readers may characterize a post as trolling, while others may regard the same post as a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. The term is often erroneously used to discredit an opposing position, or its proponent, by argument fallacy ad hominem."
"Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore him or her, because responding encourages a true troll to continue disruptive posts � hence the often-seen warning "Please do not feed the troll"."

I propose we do not call each other troll. It will do this forum no good. Perhaps you disagree with Malko, maybe you don't like his style, but you have to admit that his persistent adoration of Ligue1 is on topic.

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: saibot Date: 29-03-2008, 11:31	Great post, tirion!

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 29-03-2008, 11:51	Thank you bert. Cause this topic is about "3rd place/4th plkace, France/Germany", I do not see in which way my contribution here is trollic. Or we should namethe post : "German will be 3rd forever, and noone has the right to think different !"

Author: badgerboy
Date: 29-03-2008, 14:27

I probably should apologise to Malko too - just a little bit.

He's written so much on this - essentially pointless (because who is 4th or 5th is irrelevant) - topic that I'd actually formed the idea that he actually started it.

So apologies to Malko but also advice to everyone else that - from past experience of reading Malko's views on this subject - that trying to convince him that the Bundesliga might be better than Ligue 1 - however compelling your argument - is probably about as worthwhile as inviting a Jehovah's Witness into your home & trying to convert them to Buddhism....

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Malko Date: 29-03-2008, 14:39	badgeboy....accepted ;-) But......Convincing me to something else that I see every weekend is quite impossible......Not ONLY the UEFA-coefficient counts in "stenght" of a League....

Re: 4th place (France vs. Germany)
Author: Overgame Date: 29-03-2008, 14:55	Sorry, but the post is about France vs Germany in the country ranking, not about : -Who has the best GK's. -Who has the best strikers. -who has the best weather.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 29-03-2008, 20:21

badgerboy,
I disagree and don't find it irrelevant who is 4th or 5th. Maybe for qualification spots it doesn't make a difference. But is it also irrelevant who is nr 1, 2 or 3? 7, 8 or 9? Of course we talk most about the edges 3, 6, 9, but these coefficients is one ordering, we are talking here about who we think should be on a certain spot, and that means that we also take other ..matters in consideration.
I think it is kind of denigrating, to say it like that.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 30-03-2008, 11:02

Ricardo

Well a topic about which league is the "4th best" in Europe would be fine. Though perhaps more appropriate for forum 2?

But surely in terms of coefficients only the places that affect the number of teams per association or direct Champions League access - 3rd, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 15th & 21st under the current system and 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 13th and 15th under the new - really matter.

Otherwise you/we seem to be giving more credit to the coefficient system as a measure of real strength of leagues than it deserves. I would say in such discussions coefficients - certainly coefficient performance over time - would certainly be a valid "weapon" but not the whole argument.