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Author: Zona
Date: 11-01-2008, 23:17

I came up with a new scheduling idea that might make the end of seasons more exciting. I live in the United States where all sports leagues decide their champion with a playoff. I do not think this would fly in Europe nor do I want it to try, but I do feel like something can be done to make the final weeks of a season more meaningful. For example, the top two teams in the english premier league at the moment are Arsenal and Manchester United. The dream scenario would be that these two would play on the final day. However, Arsenal finishes at Sunderland and Manchester United plays their last at Wigan Athletic. I attempted to create a scheduling system that would create the dream scenario and I think I have.
What I did was I put the 20 teams into 4 groups of 5. The first five games of the season are within one's own group and one game outside of the group. The next four games are against the group that includes the non-group team already played. At this point, it will be as if there are two separate leagues; there will be two groups of ten in which each team has played every team in its group. Then the next ten games are against the other ten teams not played yet. So halfway through the season, everyone will have played everyone else once. The next nine games are just the reverse fixtures of the first nine. However, the next ten are reordered based on the rankings after 28 games so that bigger matchups happen near the end of the season. So instead of Sunderland-Arsenal and Wigan-Manchester United, we would have Arsenal-Manchester United.
The important thing to notice is that the basics of the league are not changed; every team plays everyone else home and away and there is no playoff. It also works well because each team plays on each matchday. The same concept can be applied to a league with any number of teams.

I would really appreciate anyone who is willing to read everything I just typed and tell me what you think of the idea. I actually sent a message to the English Premier League, but there was no response.

Author: amirbachar
Date: 12-01-2008, 00:14

In Israel this is what happens:
there are 12 teams and they play twice against every team in a schedule that was set before the season.
After 22 matches, the last 11 matches are set by the place of each team.
But actually the big teams meet eachother at the first matches.
I guess the natinal betting company want it this way, because then there are more meaningful matches at the end of the season.
Anyway, I think it will be better if they will meet at the last matches.
And about playoff, Ithink it really make the regular season unimportant so I don't think it's good or fair (and BTW, that what happens in Holland for the CL spot and in San Marino there is a double elimination playoff at the end of the season.

Re: New Scheduling Idea
Author: Kaiser Date: 12-01-2008, 00:52	I'm against this! For having 'grand final' we have Super Cup! And imagine that Arsenal left Man. United behind (e.g. 25 pts difference) and in final game Man. United defeats Arsenal! That means Arsenal's 25 pts advantage was earned in vain! Think yourself! This system will never settle down in Europe although Dutch Eredvisie tries something resembling...

Author: Zona
Date: 12-01-2008, 02:14

This is not like Holland or San Marino because the same fixtures are used (each team plays each home and away), the system just determines the order of the last ten matches. I never said I wanted a playoff, in fact, I said the opposite, this is not a playoff. The winner of the final match does not automatically win the league, it still comes down to points.
I am not sure anyone really cares about the "super cup", or in england's case, the community shield. And if Arsenal pulled away and still lost on the last day to Manchester United, it does not invalidate their achievement.

Re: New Scheduling Idea
Author: Kaiser Date: 12-01-2008, 03:58	Like in Scotland? They have 33 matches of simple calendar. After then top 6 play each other one time and so with other 6 teams. Total 38 matches.

Re: New Scheduling Idea
Author: Zona Date: 12-01-2008, 04:25	It is more like that, but the difference is that in Scotland, it is not predetermined which teams you play in the last five matchdays. At the beginning of the Scottish season, each team knows they will play 6 teams three times and 5 teams four times, but they do not know which teams. In my system, every team knows they will play each other team twice.

Re: New Scheduling Idea
Author: Kaiser Date: 12-01-2008, 04:36	in scotland if 6th team lost all matches of extra 5 matches and 7th team won all 5 matches and 7th team had more points than 6th after FULL calendar they won't exchange places. Is this rule in your system?

Author: Zona
Date: 12-01-2008, 04:38

There is no reason for that to occur in my system because everyone still plays everyone twice as they do now. The reason they use that rule in Scotland is because the sixth place team has to play the top 5 again while the seventh place team has to play the bottom five, so it wouldn't be fair for the seventh place team to be ranked above the sixth by beating lower quality teams. This is not an issue in my scheduling format.

Re: New Scheduling Idea
Author: Kaiser Date: 12-01-2008, 04:44	Yes, I like this system. ps. Are you fond of NHL and NBA? What is the algorithm in composition of calendar? (I suspect that all matches in calendar and put randomly)

Re: New Scheduling Idea
Author: Zona Date: 12-01-2008, 04:46	I follow the NBA, and to a lesser extent, the NHL. The only part of the NBA schedule that is not random are certain holiday matchups, but other than that, they are random.

Author: Cirdan
Date: 12-01-2008, 12:20
Edited by: Cirdan
at: 12-01-2008, 12:21

I think the idea of scheduling the dates according to team strength is interesting (instead of using the half-seasons ranking for the second half season I'd probably take the ranking of the season before for the whole season), but I see a big setback: the big European leagues are usually not decided on the last matchday, but already a couple of weeks before, and it's way more interesting to see ManU vs Arsenal in February or something, when both can still be Champion, instead of on the last matchday, when boths positions are set and the game is meaningless.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 12-01-2008, 13:28

I think Cirdan already came up with the main problem with the idea.

It's fine if you "know" that this is going to be a "Championship decider" but it's terrible if it turns out to be a "dead rubber". Remember Man. U v Chelsea last year - after the title was decided. Both teams played reserves & it was dire.

And since you can never "know" it's going to be a close championship I think I prefer the current system - where matches between big teams always seem incredibly important even when they turn out not to be.

Author: Zona
Date: 12-01-2008, 17:04

Actually, Cirdan, I do use the previous season to determine which teams are in which groups.
Group A: 1, 8, 9, 16, 17
Group B: 4, 5, 12, 13, 20
Group C: 2, 7, 10, 15, 18
Group D: 3, 6, 11, 14, 19

I admit that if the title is already decided before the final match, that match will not be especially entertaining. However, if we recall 1989 when Arsenal beat Liverpool on the final day (nearly the final play) to win the league, I just feel like it is worth the risk of a meaningless match because the match would be amazing if the title were not already decided.

Author: amirbachar
Date: 12-01-2008, 23:17
Edited by: amirbachar
at: 12-01-2008, 23:21

I don't see the point of 4 group. It's the same as making only 2 groups and they the last 10 mathes will be determined by the rankings.
I think you are too influenced by the American system so you say 4 group, but if you think about it, you will see that is exacly like using only 2 groups.

And I'm not sure that financialy it worths the risk, so that's the reason it doesn't happen.
everyone know that in England the top 4 now will probably be the top 4 next season so if they want it, they could do it without a problem

Author: Zona
Date: 12-01-2008, 23:30
Edited by: Zona
at: 12-01-2008, 23:32

The only reason I used four groups was to have more control over when each team plays home and away. I set it up so no team plays three home or road games in a row. Even if I used only two groups, the format would automatically divide itself again based on which games were played at home and which were played on the road.
Is the financial issue you mentioned that if the title were already decided, less people would attend? If that is what you mean, I am not sure that would be a problem. I would expect an Arsenal-Man U match to sell out no matter the circumstances.

Re: New Scheduling Idea
Author: amirbachar Date: 13-01-2008, 00:44	In Europe it doesn't work that way. I think that if a match doesn't affect the rankings, the stadium won't even be half full.

Author: Cirdan
Date: 13-01-2008, 01:41
Edited by: Cirdan
at: 13-01-2008, 01:44

Well... in Germany the stadiums are full no matter what, but I still don't like the idea of having meaningless top ties on the last matchday in at least 3 out of 4 years. And if the race is close, it can be just as great to have both matches played at the same time... I remember the last matchday of 1991/1992 in the Bundesliga with Eintracht, Dortmund and Stuttgart even on points, Eintracht had the best goal difference... the situation changed several times over the matchday, Eintracht played in Rostock, who were playing against relegation (still had a chance if they won), I remember they didn't show the results in stadium in order not to discourage Rostocks team... Rostock won, Eintracht lost the championship to Stuttgart, who scored the decisive goal in the 86th minute (before, Dortmund were Champions), but Rostock were still relegated. I'm a Rostock fan ever since (though more of a pressing-thumbs-on-the-couch-wannabe-fan than a going-to-the-stadiums-and-cheer-true-fan

)

And the season final 2001 was at least as exciting, when Schalke lost the Championship after they already started celebrating, since Bayern scored in injury time.

To conclude: you don't need the top teams playing each other to have a memorable season final. You just need at least 2 teams close enough to get the title and let the teams score in a way that holds the race open as long as possible.

Re: New Scheduling Idea
Author: Zona Date: 13-01-2008, 01:42	In last year's meaningless match between Manchester United and Chelsea on May 9 at Stamford Bridge, the attendance was 41,794, nearly a sell out (Stamford Bridge's capacity is 42,055).

Author: Kaiser
Date: 13-01-2008, 02:02

Zona,

don't mix your American football league (or what's its name?) with European football - in your league there are a lot of unexpected results and best teams really have equal points at the end of the season. But in Kontinente Europa big teams almost always are in leaders. But I think that France resembles your league and remember last season when Marseille became second and Lens out of eurocups! It was a big surprise. So French league maybe... but no others...

Author: amirbachar
Date: 13-01-2008, 02:12

But still, there got to be less betting on that match, and if the two teams still in race won't play eachother, there will be 2 packed matches and not just one.
And if there are 3 teams still in race, let's say with just one point less than the two teams that meet eachother, I would say it has no chance of winning the title, just because the other two met eachother on the last matchday.
Oh, and it may also be bad for football, if one knows draw is enough, and the match could be much more interesting if they met eachother earlier and didn't know exactly what they need.

So it might be worth trying it, but there are also reasons not to.

Author: Zona
Date: 13-01-2008, 04:00

My worry is that if two teams still have title bids going into the last day and they are not playing eachother, their respective opponents might not have any motivation to win the game. I want to see those two title contenders play because both teams will certainly have motivation. I am not saying it is not compelling if they don�t play eachother, but I would rather they do.
Also, the possibility of a draw being enough to clinch the title for one team can happen regardless. I don�t really think that scenario is all that bad, either; it is like that team starts with a one goal lead, as soon as they allow a goal, they can no longer camp in their own half.

Re: New Scheduling Idea
Author: Kaiser Date: 13-01-2008, 04:42	Zona, are you registered on Forum 2? There are many such discussions (otherwise this topic suits more to Forum 2 than this forum

Re: New Scheduling Idea
Author: Zona Date: 13-01-2008, 04:52	I'm not registered in Forum 2, if I do, which topic should I go to discuss this idea?

Re: New Scheduling Idea
Author: Kaiser Date: 13-01-2008, 04:58	Maybe this one? Jking. Create a topic - but I think there is no need becasue this topic is already in this forum. And remember - Bert always delete such topics made by me.

Re: New Scheduling Idea
Author: Zona Date: 13-01-2008, 05:01 Edited by: Zona at: 13-01-2008, 05:01	I've already visited that one, it is a shame how everyone rags on MLS. I have hope that someday it will be legit.

Re: New Scheduling Idea
Author: Kaiser Date: 13-01-2008, 05:07	I did my best . I think that must leave a comment there...

Author: Cirdan
Date: 13-01-2008, 06:22
Edited by: Cirdan
at: 13-01-2008, 06:26

Well... what should the opponent save their strength for? Maybe if a team plays an international or domestic cup final... but this is hardly ever the case (it's more likely the title candidate that's still running for a cup title), the opponent usually has no pressure, which can somethimes be good rather than bad... and remember, the relevant matches of a head-to-head finish are the probably the most-watched games of the season, so they can show their abilities one last time to a big audience without the desperate need to win...

From my experience with the Bundesliga those matches are more often hard-fought and interesting to watch than not.

Examples are last years Stuttgart vs Cottbus, in which Cottbus (secure in the lower half of the table) took the lead and played one of their best games of the season, even if Stuttgart outplayed them in the end. In the other game Arminia (like Cottbus, nothing to play for) was a bit hopeless against Schalke, but hardly more so than expected (both matches ended 2:1).

In '02 3 clubs could win the league (Dortmund, Leverkusen, Bayern) and all won their final match, but tight (2:1, 2:1, 3:2).

In '01 already as-good-as-relegated Unterhaching (would have needed to win around 10:0 and Stuttgart losing 0:5 to stay in the league...) even made a 2:0 lead and again a 3:2 until finally going down 3:5 in a spectacular match against Schalke, in the second match title favourite Bayern was down 0:1 against Hamburg (midtable, nothing to play for) until they finally equalised in injury time and won the championship. Like I already said, probably the most spectacular Bundesliga finish ever.

In '00 Unterhaching (secure in the mid table that time) won 2:0 over Leverkusen, which cost Leverkusen the title (Bayern won 3:1 against Bremen, who still had a chance to qualify for the UEFA Cup).

I do not remember any cakewalks of the favourites, and we have an average of 3.6 goals per match in the decisive matches of those 4 seasons (which is a LOT), plus, in every single of these cases the leader of the table changed at least once during the last matchday. Of course, the favourites won more often than not, but there is usually a reason that the teams were running for the title and their opponents were not :P

Author: MartinW
Date: 13-01-2008, 08:02

There are some other fixture restrictions for EPL which would make it very difficult to use your plan to schedule based on last season's league positions:
a) Teams close together have to play home/away on the same date (e.g. Everton/Liverpool, Arsenal/Tottenham)
b) The first fixture and last fixture of the season are never local derbies (I'm not sure this is an official rule but it is always unofficially observed)
c) Boxing Day fixtures have to be against a team who are geographically close, but not the actual derby opponent.

There may be some other minor restrictions as well that I haven't thought of. It would not be possible to use your plan and at the same time retain these tradtional fixture features.

Author: Zona
Date: 13-01-2008, 17:07

Those restrictions do make scheduling with my system harder, but not impossible. Instead of organizing the group by the previous year's positions, the groups could be geographic. If the right teams are in the right groups, derby opponents would not play at home at the same time. It would not be difficult to prevent the first game being a derby, however, the if the best two teams are derby opponents, they would likely play on the final day. The Boxing Day restriction is more difficult to deal with, but I believe proper group placement will fulfill the requirement.

Author: mjwillan
Date: 13-01-2008, 17:13

Its also not very good if you're a season ticket holder of one of the clubs. It would be very difficult to plan your weekends towards the end of the season.

As for the Chelsea v Man Utd game at the end of last season - it was re-arranged from the FA Cup semi final weekend as both clubs had an FA Cup tie. This season Arsenal v Liverpool is on FA Cup semi final weekend so that when one (or both) of the teams reaches the SF the game can be moved to the last midweek and shown on TV. Unfortunately for the planners, Liverpool will be out of the race by then.