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| Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: cankanal
Date: 05-01-2008, 20:17 Edited by: cankanal at: 05-01-2008, 20:19 | It is too unfair that wins both in CL and UC are same worth to get points. And please note that: After group stages, let's investigate two teams which goes to UC and another qualifies for second tour in CL. CL team will play maximum 7 games and UC team will play 9 games!!! If they both go to final match, UC team will probably get more points than CL winner! That is an increadible mistake!! I suggest winning in CL should be 3.0 points and draw 1.5 points. In UC win 2.0 and draw 1.0 point.Because to qualify in CL is harder and there are less matches than in UC |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: bbi
Date: 05-01-2008, 20:54 | i agree i don't now exactly what the system should be. a system should take in cosideration the competion the stage of the competion and the ranking of you oppenent. this could be done taking into account the national championships. this way the country coeficent won't be taken into acount in the teams coeficent and newcomers to european competion would have some points. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Kaiser
Date: 05-01-2008, 23:48 | Edgar has a list of possible changes |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: cankanal
Date: 06-01-2008, 00:41 | Country points should not affect 33%. It is too high. For example; a Spanish team which has never played in European cups in last 5 years will start with 25.374 points. It is too much. Yes, there should be country's effect but about 10% is enough. And for team points last 1 year %100, 2 years 90%, 3 years 80%, 4 years 70% and last 5 years 60% looks better. Moreover CL wins should be 3.0 points and draw 1.5 points. For UC, wins 2.0 points and draw 1.0 points. Because UC participant has chance to play more matches to get points and easier matches in comparasion with CL. Wouldn't it be better?? |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: mick58
Date: 06-01-2008, 06:11 | , 18:04 probably been asked before many times but as i've just registered....... last season espanyol lost to seville in the uefa final but have 4 points more than seville, who in turn have about 4 points more than ac milan who won the european cup. has uefa ever been asked to redress this and give the CL the higher status? mick last year i wrote this, i'm just pleased everyone else is taking notice now. a victory against elfborg in the uefa cup was worth the same as beating ac milan. funny old game |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Overgame
Date: 06-01-2008, 09:02 | Even giving more points in the CL will bring some funny things. I could get 2 points for a win against Bayern and 3 for one against Kiev :p P.S without the country protection, the newcomer from Spain would be unseeded in the UCR1. They're strong enough to win against 90% of the seeded team, so they're not really protected but the others seeded teams are. I don't really see where is the problem. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: doremi
Date: 06-01-2008, 09:54 | yeah..a bit funny if u compare winning against bayern in UC and winning against kiev in CL.. but in UC, bayern would be the toughest team u hav there while in CL, there are many teams that are same level with bayern n even tougher than bayern.. lets think logically.. in CL, u r among the best. the challenge is tougher..UC is the 2nd best. so, the teams from CL should get more points.. less games played in CL makes the case of more points for the CL teams r really really significant.. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: cankanal
Date: 06-01-2008, 10:52 | But Bayern don't play in UC every year. It will be in CL next year. Yes you are right, country effect should be.But 33% is too much. First I said 10% but then I revised, it is too little, too. Country coefficient should be 20%. That would be perfect! CL wins 3.0 and draw 1.5 points, UC wins 2.0 and draw 1.0 points, and Team Points: Last 1 year : 100% Last 2 years: 90% Last 3 years: 80% Last 4 years: 70% Last 5 years: 60% (100%,80%,60%,40% and 20% are too ineffective) Wouldn't this be great?? |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: badgerboy
Date: 06-01-2008, 12:25 | These ideas - & the solutions proposed here - have been discussed many times before. I think the current system has two things going for it. Firstly - it's simplicity. Most other systems & "improvements" involve making it somehow more complicated. FIFA has a very complex system for it's national team rankings - one I certainly can't be bothered wasting too much time figuring out. And this still produces pretty hideous anomalies. Second - I think that the coefficients serve their purpose pretty well. It's important to remember that this purpose (I'm talking about the team ranking here) isn't to show a ranking of the best teams in Europe. If it was then I agree that there would need to be many improvements - & the UEFA Cup would have to be worth less points. But I like the fact that the current system allows teams to become seeded in the CL qualifiers by doing well in the UEFA Cup - thus having better chances of reaching the next CL. At the same time other teams pick up less points in the (much harder) CL become unseeded & have a harder time qualifying. I see it as a form of promotion & relegation. If you gave extra points for the CL maybe even teams losing at the group stage would make enough points to keep being seeded & coming back over & over again - which for me would be very, very dull. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: cankanal
Date: 06-01-2008, 12:35 Edited by: cankanal at: 06-01-2008, 12:36 | Badgerboy, Is it fair that CL team will play 7 games until the final whereas 3rd team in the group stages can play 9 games in UC?? Also, the points for wins and draws are same?? |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: bert.kassies
Date: 06-01-2008, 13:56 | cankanal, the main result of giving more points to CL matches than to UC matches would be an enlarged gap between the top-3 countries (and the teams from the top-3 countries) and the rest. Probably it would be more accurate on the absolute value of the ranking of best teams, but it would almost make no difference with respect to number of spots and seeding of teams (as badgerboy said). I'm not against such a change, but I don't consider it as really important. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: cankanal
Date: 06-01-2008, 15:31 Edited by: cankanal at: 06-01-2008, 15:33 | For example, I contemplate Fenerbahçe as a Turkish. It has qualified for 2nd round in CL and the opponent is Sevilla. It is possible to eleminate Sevilla but then?? As an objective sight, if it qualifies to quarter final, Fenerbahçe has too little chance to eleminate Barcelona, Manchester Utd, Real Madrid and so on. So, it means Fenerbahçe can play maximum 4 matches probably. But If Fenerbahçe had been 3rd and gone to UC instead of PSV, nobody would have been surprised to see Fenerbahçe in semi final. It means 8 matches and easier games! So, because of this unfair calculating, Fenerbahçe will probably be in pot4 again next year in stead of pot3. What is the advantage for Fenerbahçe to qualify CL instead of UC?? |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: bert.kassies
Date: 06-01-2008, 16:06 | cankanal, you're right. It can make a difference in an individual case. But don't forget last year when PSV was in CL-quarterfinal, and Fenerbahçe was in UC. Only for teams that play consistently in CL it will make a real difference. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Cirdan
Date: 06-01-2008, 17:24 | @cankanal: with the 3 bonus points for reaching group stage and 1 bonus point for reaching second round, you can get exactly the same amount of points in the CL as you can in the UC: CL: 13*2 (win every match) + 3 (bonus points for group stage) + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 (bonus points for knock out stages) = 33 UC: 15*2 (win every match) + 1 + 1 + 1 (bonus points for quaterfinals) = 33 I'm with Badgerboy on this... You might get slightly more accurate rankings by awarding more points for CL games, or by awarding points depending on the strength of your opponent, but the system is good enough as it is for seeding purposes, it doesn't need to get more complicated to fix the few notable anomalys we have. As for the old 2nd/3rd of CL groups-argument, history proves you wrong. Last year, only Werder Bremen and Benfica made more points as the 3rd than the 2nd in their group (Barca and Celtic), the year before only Udinese and Schalke made more than Werder and PSV. So, in 75% of the cases the 2nd already makes more points than the 3rd with the current system (in the last 2 years), and of the 4 cases where it was not so, only 1 would be changed by awarding 3/1.5 points in the CL: Werder, Benfica and Schalke would still have made more points than the team that beat them in group stage even with your adjustments. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: cankanal
Date: 06-01-2008, 19:11 Edited by: cankanal at: 06-01-2008, 19:13 | 1 AC Milan 118.150 2 Chelsea 110.686 3 Liverpool 106.686 4 FC Barcelona 105.765 5 Arsenal 103.686 6 Sevilla 99.765 7 Olympique Lyon 98.097 8 Internazionale 96.150 9 Real Madrid 92.765 10 Manchester United 91.686 Look at that: Manchester Utd and Real Madrid join CL regulary evey year and did good work in last 5 years MANCHESTER UNITED: 2007: semi final 2006: unique failure! 2005: first knockout round 2004: first knockout round 2003: quarter final REAL MADRID: 2007: first knockout round 2006: first knockout round 2005: first knockout round 2004: quarter final 2003: semi final (Always qualified in groups) But they both can be in pot 2 next year whereas Sevilla can be in pot 1, although they never competed in CL. Yes, they did perfect success in UC but in UC!. Do you really believe that Sevilla could collect 30.162 and 31.270 points in CL?? So, Sevilla deserve to be in pot2 but not pot1 in stead of Real and Man Utd. I believe that if Real Madrid or Manchester join UC one year.They can collect 35 points at least! but they will probably be in pot 2 next year. and If I were the chairman of Man Utd or Real , I would join UC one year to collect more points  |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: keeganvogts
Date: 06-01-2008, 20:21 Edited by: keeganvogts at: 06-01-2008, 20:24 | Sevilla beat Arsenal in CLGS and collected 17.5060 pts as far as current in CL. They were in pot 2 this year. Why should they not promote to pot 1? And what about a team that probably promotes to the 1st league in its country, qualifies for UC and wins it twice in a row + CL qualification via national league position while winning UC 2nd time? Should it play in CL in the 3rd year? Should it get the chance to perform well in CL and promote from pot 2 to pot 1? And what about a team winning all 10 (in words: ten!) matches in UC - which would be 2nd best performance in EC ever! and would break the UC record of Borussia Monchengladbach from 1974/75 with 9 wins in a row - which would include 5 (in words: five!) away matches in a row - only 2 teams have 7 away wins in a row and only 3 teams have 6 wins in a row, two of them in a single season - before being knocked out in UCQF with 2 losses two years in a row? Should such a team get the chance to qualify for CL via national ranking, perform well in CL and promote from pot 2 to pot 1 one year later? What about Juventus Turin? Should they get the same chance? In the last two years Juventus didn't qualify for reasons that are well known. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Cirdan
Date: 06-01-2008, 20:37 Edited by: Cirdan at: 06-01-2008, 21:33 | Sevilla is one anomaly, Newcastle and AZ are pretty high on UC performances, too... arguably there are some other slight mistakes, but I just don't think it makes that much of a difference... You'll always have seeding "errors"... Juventus will not be in pot 1, maybe not even in pot 2 due to abscence, even if they are good enough, teams from Spain often do great in their first year in Europe (Villareal, Real Betis), despite not having made any points before, Abramovich bought Chelsea one of the best squads in Europe over 1 or 2 seasons, but it needed several good runs in the CL until they were finally seeded were they belong. I don't think your system would change that - in the top 20 there are very few teams who don't regularly play CL and fetch some points there. I can't remember a team seeded in pot1 without regularly playing in the later stages of the CL lately, Sevilla would be a first. So, having Sevilla put in pot 1 for one or two seasons when they might be better up in pot 2 just doesn't matter enough to me to cry out for another method of calculating seeds. Especially since Sevilla just won in a CL group ahead of Arsenal, who where seeded above them with points made in the Champions League, which shows that Sevilla can't be that out of place in pot 1. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Kaiser
Date: 06-01-2008, 20:53 Edited by: Kaiser at: 06-01-2008, 20:54 | UEFA won't change the current unfair system! Do you know why? First of all because UEFA Cup is a tournament for such teams as Brann, Basel, etc. And what does UEFA want? They want to make such clubs going further at least group stage and let that clubs win more points than they counld in CL to make successes in future! We see Basel in 3rd pot in CL! Sevilla haven't participated in CL for a long time but were seeded in 2nd pot of CL!! Why? Because they won UEFA Cup twice in a row! To avoid this, ikoon (some old Romanian on this forum) offered to divide CL ranking from UC's. And I like this idea. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: keeganvogts
Date: 06-01-2008, 21:25 | You're right. The system is unfair. Let's return to the old and fair system of the 80s: Seed only teams that have reached HF at least once in the last five years.  |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Tirion
Date: 06-01-2008, 22:14 | Just a small remark along the way, Seville is ten points behind a CL-Spot this season. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: cankanal
Date: 06-01-2008, 23:19 | Basel?? But they always collect the points from UC. they don't intend to play in CL. They are so satisfied with UEFA's unfair mistake  |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Kaiser
Date: 06-01-2008, 23:26 Edited by: Kaiser at: 06-01-2008, 23:26 | Edgar's ranking if CL wins rewarded much more than UC's (hope it's correct:1 ( 1) Spain 52.624 |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Overgame
Date: 06-01-2008, 23:37 | Winning the Uefa Cup TWICE in a row is an EXCEPTIONNAL performance. Rewarding that performance with a spot in the 2nd pot of CL isn't so bad. And, right now, Sevilla is scoring (again) more points than Madrid. What do you want ? Seeing teams like Sevilla in pot 4 and getting a group of the death ? Frankly, i'm wondering who is getting the protection : Sevilla or pot A/B teams ? |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Kaiser
Date: 06-01-2008, 23:41 | But we hadn't seen Sevilla in CL! Sevilla hadn't defeated such teams as Chelsea, Arsenal, Bayern, so we didn't know it's real strength (I think that even Zenit from Peter can defeat Espanyol). So creating 2 ranks (CL's and UC's) is perfect solution. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: cankanal
Date: 07-01-2008, 00:16 | Kaiser, you are completely right my friend!! and also does Edgar have for teams rankings?? |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Kaiser
Date: 07-01-2008, 00:44 | and also does Edgar have for teams rankings?? As far as I remember CL points counted twice and UC pts - once... But I'm not sure... |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Cirdan
Date: 07-01-2008, 01:38 Edited by: Cirdan at: 07-01-2008, 01:42 | Looking at the data we have, I just don't see the big errors of the seeding system, the teams perform roughly as good as their seed predicts, with almost frighteningly few exceptions. There is no objective reason to try to improve it. Last season, all (!!) pot1 and pot2 teams reached CL second round, and only 10 of the 32 teams in group stage finished different from their seeding positions, this year was a bit less accurate, but still, all teams from pot1 are in second round and 6 of them won their group, the other 2 group winners are from pot2... only Valencia (2 positions down) and Olympiakos & Fener (2 positions up) finished more than 1 place away from their seeded position, and I doubt very much that you would have predicted those with your proposed systems. Just look at the data, and don't just say "Sevilla should not be in pot1", which is nothing but an opinion based on thin air. Try to predict the group stage results (or, if you want, the qualification results) with your system and see if your system is notably better, I doubt so. It might be marginally better, but I don't think that's enough to change the system that obviously is already pretty good, especially if it gets more complicated. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: cankanal
Date: 07-01-2008, 02:06 | I really wonder the new team ranking with: CL wins 3.0 and draw 1.5 points UC wins 2.0 and draw 1.0 points. Country coefficient is 20% and Points collected: Last 1 year : 100% Last 2 years: 90% Last 3 years: 80% Last 4 years: 70% Last 5 years: 60% I want to see so much new team ranking by using above methods but to calculate will be too much time  I want to look new ranking of Sevilla, Basel and AZ Alkmaar with above calculating  |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Kaiser
Date: 07-01-2008, 02:09 | I want to look new ranking of Sevilla, Basel and AZ Alkmaar with above calculating Ask Edgar to count ps. Are you registered on Forum 2? I've just launched the new week of Football Europe Prediction Game. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: amirbachar
Date: 07-01-2008, 08:42 Edited by: amirbachar at: 07-01-2008, 08:43 | Most of you are totally missing the second purpose of the rankings: a seeding system could have two main purposes - one is to reflect the real strength (as many of you think it it the only purpose). The second, and not less important than the first, is to influence the importance of UC (or generally to influence something). That is, UEFA know this seeding system might not reflect the real strength, but it wants teams to really try their best also in UC, knowing it may help them to succeed in the CL and to get more money. Oh, and the people that say it is better for a team not to qualify for the KO round in the CL to get more point - and that will give them what? More honor? More money? If they had a chance to qualify and they prefered not to, the next year it will be the same. So you might say "when they have enough points they will try to make it to the KO rounds, but then, why won't they try to do that right now? |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: badgerboy
Date: 07-01-2008, 11:46 Edited by: badgerboy at: 07-01-2008, 11:57 | cankanal wrote: "and If I were the chairman of Man Utd or Real , I would join UC one year to collect more points" I think this sentence really says it all about the argument. A club gets €2.2M for losing in the 1st knockout round of the CL (to add to the minimum (nearly) of €7.2M they must surely have got for playing in & qualifying from the groups) - with another €12.5M to come if they win the competition. That's discounting the market pool for TV etc - which for Manchester United & Real Madrid is substantial. But cankanal thinks a club chairman should give more importance to collecting a few extra coefficient points by playing in the UEFA Cup instead. "What is the advantage for Fenerbahçe to qualify CL instead of UC??" Following on from the above. First - massive great wadges of cash. Second - prestige. I doubt the wider footballing world thinks too much about teams that reach the UEFA Cup quarter-finals or semi-finals once in a blue moon - their achievements are soon forgotten. You don't even seem to think much of Sevilla - who won the competition twice in a row. I see nothing wrong with their seeding by the way - the only reason they haven't played CL before (at least last year) is the strength of La Liga. But if you are playing in the CL KO rounds you're "playing with the big boys". If you're good enough to reach the quarter-finals (for teams outside the elite that do it pretty regularly) then that's instant prestige & respect around Europe. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: kurt
Date: 07-01-2008, 15:37 | i find everything OK, bonuspoints, points for winning matches only the 33% rule should be 25 %, because in the future also groupmatches in uefacup, subtopteams of the countries like germany, france,.... will winn a lot of points so the gap between the top 5 and the rest will become greater. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: cankanal
Date: 07-01-2008, 15:40 | @Kaiser Yes, I am registered in forum 2 with name "Edirnespor" Can you ask to Edgar to calculate the new team ranking with my rules?? @Badgerboy You say even first knockround is more prestigious than UC. But, I will ask you a question. Let's consider Galatasaray. Galatasaray won UEFA Cup in 2000 and played quarter final in CL after only one year in 2001. But, Do people know Galatasaray with UEFA Cup or playing "quarter final" in CL, when they hear Galatasaray name, firstly?? |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Kaiser
Date: 07-01-2008, 17:00 | See this topic (click the link). Opened by me, supported by Dragonite and ignjat63, not supported by badgerboy, ikoon, sb, Overgame and others. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: duncshine
Date: 07-01-2008, 17:28 | I have to say I agree with Badgerboy on this one. I think the coefficients work pretty well. They do serve the purpose of encouraging sides in the UEFA Cup to do their best, but I don't think any team would rather play in the UEFA Cup latter stages than the Champions League. If that were the case then I would agree the coefficients were counterproductive. However, it is important to remember that most teams don't even understand the coefficient system. I have always thought this forum understands the effect of coefficients and seedings far better than most of the football establishment! Champions League games are far more lucrative in terms of prize money, TV money and also associated advertising revenues, so no club Chairman is going to want to forego that cash for a better seeding next year. Bert's point is well made too. Increasing the points for the CL would only serve to widen the gap between the haves (Man U, Real Madrid etc) and the have nots. I like the idea that smaller clubs from the big countries, or clubs from the (in club football terms) weaker countries get a chance for a good seeding as a reward for a run in the UEFA Cup! Maybe this is about capitalism (strong get stronger while the weak suffer) versus socialism (bring the rich down a peg or two and give the poor a leg up!) Dunc |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Kaiser
Date: 07-01-2008, 17:35 | I understand this! And what's from that top6 will be divided from others? That means they are worthy! And there is the big difference in defeating Arsenal between defeating Basel! |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Ricardo
Date: 07-01-2008, 20:47 | If you give 3 points for a win and 1.5 for a loss, than you are forgetting that also for the losers there should be more points, as it is already hard to get in the CL ( for the subtop teams at least). maybe more sth like 3 for a win, 2 for a draw and 1 for a loss. For the groupstage this would be like giving everybody 6 bonuspoints. 3 is not enough. teams should get more!. But fact is that indeed the system works pretty well and shouldn't be perfect, as then all groups would be alike belanced and all very predictable! |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Kaiser
Date: 07-01-2008, 21:32 | But fact is that indeed the system works pretty well and shouldn't be perfect, as then all groups would be alike belanced and all very predictable! And what is seeding for? Just to avoid groups of the death and ones of life! Otherwise seeding should not be used! |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Dragonite
Date: 07-01-2008, 21:33 | I think that independent from if CL wins and draws should or shouldn’t count more than UEFA Cup wins and draws, what wins should count is 3 points, just like in real football: 3 points for a win 1 point for a draw And 0 points for a defeat Ricardo, I can’t agree with you that losers should also get points… If they lose, they get 0 points in “real football”, why should they score points in “coefficients points”?? And then, for the UEFA rankings to be more realistic (no AZ Alkmaar, Newcastle, etc… on top) there should be big bonuses in each CL round… for instance, instead of 3 points for the simple fact a team reaches the group stages, it could be 5 instead… And then for each round a team progresses, more 3 points perhaps. UEFA Cup could also have “real football” points, but with smaller bonuses… perhaps just 1 point for each round a team progresses. And there shouldn’t be the “33 % country coefficient”… How is it possible that Juventus hasn’t competed in Europe last season, and they aren’t competing this season too, and they are still scoring points??!! The only thing country coefficient should be used for is to sort teams levelled on points. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Kaiser
Date: 07-01-2008, 21:44 | And there shouldn’t be the “33 % country coefficient”… How is it possible that Juventus hasn’t competed in Europe last season, and they aren’t competing this season too, and they are still scoring points??!! You are not right, Dragonite. Imagine Toulouse, a club which hasn't participated in Eurocups for a long time. And they defeated Spartak Moskva! And Juventus should be in 4th pot next year, eh? It's not right, pal. I think UEFA should take a sum of TC and CC like in old days... |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Ricardo
Date: 07-01-2008, 21:53 | Dragonite. By giving bonuspoints, you give also the losers points! That is what I was saying! |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Dragonite
Date: 07-01-2008, 22:04 | Kaiser, Correct me if I’m wrong, but last time I looked, Toulouse finished bottom of a group with Spartak Moscow, Bayer Leverkusen, FC Zurich and Sparta Prague. They lost against the last 3 opponents, and against Spartak Moscow, on UEFA Cup match day 5, has Toulouse defeated Spartak Moscow or Spartak Moscow B??? There’s nothing special about Toulouse, if they played the CL, they should go to pot 4… and theirs performance in the UEFA Cup shows they aren’t good enough to play the CL. Juventus is 21st at the moment, with 66.150 points… They scored 3.936 in 2006/2007 and so far they scored 2.5985 this season. Without these 2 seasons they would have just 59.6155 and would only lose 2 places, going to 23rd in the ranking. If in the other 3 seasons you take the 33% of Italy average points and replace them by Juventus points in those seasons, since they were above the average, probably Juventus would recover the 21st spot, or be even higher. This 33% of country average points is only good for teams below the average, who see 33% of theirs weak record replaced by a better record… For the best teams, to take 33% of theirs points and replace them for a smaller number, it’s bad!! They would have more points on theirs own. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Dragonite
Date: 07-01-2008, 22:07 | Ricardo, But it’s better to give them for something “positive” like qualifying to the next level than giving them for something negative like losing a game! One way or another they would get points, I just don’t like the idea they would be rewarded for losing! |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Kaiser
Date: 07-01-2008, 22:09 | Correct me if I’m wrong, but last time I looked, Toulouse finished bottom of a group with Spartak Moscow, Bayer Leverkusen, FC Zurich and Sparta Prague. Due to their coefficient If UEFA gave more CC to TC, Toulouse could get easier opponents |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Dragonite
Date: 07-01-2008, 22:36 | Easier than these??!! With all respect for these 4 teams, but: Spartak Moscow, except for the win against Sporting, can’t win a game in the CL since 2000. In 23 matches, 1 win, 5 draws and 17 defeats!! This is hardly impressive. Bayer Leverkusen CL record is better than Spartak record, but still, they missed the last 3 CL editions. Sparta Prague missed the last 2 CL editions, and they can’t win a CL game since 2003. Ever since theirs record is 14 matches, 0 wins, 4 draws and 10 defeats. FC Zurich never played the CL… and I don’t think theirs UEFA Cup record is impressive either… Maybe now it is slightly impressive at Toulouse’s expense. So, Kaiser, I’m curious, who could those “easier opponents” be? |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Kaiser
Date: 07-01-2008, 22:39 | More easy. Even more. They could be seeded in the 5th pot and get stronger opponents if UEFA contrieved to follow your suggestion |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Kaiser
Date: 07-01-2008, 22:41 Edited by: Kaiser at: 07-01-2008, 22:42 | |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Enrique
Date: 08-01-2008, 12:07 | Current system is good enough, transparent and easy to understand. Some might argue that what happened to Romania two years ago is a bit out of proportion. But other than that I think it's fine. As for Sevilla and Newcastle, well maybe they deserve to be that far up in the rankings. They've proven that they are good teams and they probably would be also in CL. Sevilla is proving it this season. Somebody said before it's like relegation. I absolutely agree. Take whatever national league: If a first league team relegates to second league it doesn't mean necessarily that it is better than the team that climbed from 2nd to 1st. And somebody (sorry, too lazy to go back up and check who it was) also mentioned the Fifa world ranking. Good point. Because to make it "fair" you would really have to give more points for beating a higher ranked team. Another item. Why for example should Real Madrid get three points in CL as proposed by cankanal for beating the Albanian team (hypothetically) who was the lowest ranked team in group stage. And a team from Luxemburg that (hypothetically) beats Bayern in Uefa Cup only two points? You see on this example very clearly, that whichever way you turn it there is no absolutely fair system, without getting to complicated. And nobody wants a complicated system. The ranking is not out of proportion. It serves its purpose. The objective is not getting point. The objective is the opportunity to play in CL quarter finals against a big team. And to make money...you don't make money in Uefa. If you have the chance to become 2nd in CL group stage you would go for it, rather then ending up 3rd on purpose. The team who does it would miss out on millions of guaranteed euros....for points??? Nonsense. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Dragonite
Date: 08-01-2008, 12:27 | Kaiser, I’m still curious! Which group would be “easier” for Toulouse than this??!! Enrique- there was never an Albanian team in the CL… And probably there will never be, at least for the next years… Unless Platini creates a rule saying something like “teams from the worst 20 leagues must play between themselves for 8 CL spots”. In theory the 32 teams in the CL are the best 32 teams in Europe… Any CL team is better than any UEFA Cup team (at least that’s how it was supposed to be). So, beating a CL team, no matter which, should count more than beating a UEFA Cup team. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: badgerboy
Date: 08-01-2008, 15:01 | Dragonite The CL containing the best 32 teams in Europe? You must be joking. The best 16 certainly - maybe 20 to 24 of the best 32 - most years. But since the strongest leagues are limited to just 4 teams each you can hardly say "the best 32". I have little doubt that both Atletico Madrid & Villarreal - plus quite probably one or two other Spanish teams - are quite a bit better than some of the teams that played CL this year. So probably are quite a few teams from elsewhere. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Dragonite
Date: 08-01-2008, 15:21 | Badgerboy, That’s why I wrote “IN THEORY”. “In theory” Dinamo Kiev should be stronger than what they showed in this CL edition. “In theory” Juventus should be in the CL instead of Lazio. “In theory” Bayern should have finished top 3 in Germany last season, and they should be in the CL this season. “In theory” Ajax should be stronger and not be eliminated by Slavia Prague. Etc… Of course, Platini wants to ruin this and put 5 weak teams in the CL (or even more)… Until he does so, the CL will have “in theory” the best 32 teams. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: cankanal
Date: 08-01-2008, 16:27 Edited by: cankanal at: 08-01-2008, 16:28 | Can you say the best 32 teams according to you?? Everybody can say unlimited teams from Spain, Italy, England... According to me: *Real Madrid *Barcelona *Valencia *Sevilla *Villarreal *Atletico Madrid *Manchester United *Arsenal *Chelsea *Liverpool *Manchester City *Tottenham *Juventus *AC Milan *Internazionale *AS Roma *Fiorentina *Bayern München *Werder Bremen *Schalke 04 *Hamburg *Bayer Leverkusen *Ajax *PSV Eindhoven *Lyon *Bordeaux *Porto *Benfica *Fenerbahçe *Olympiacos *Panathinaikos *Celtic According to you?? |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: badgerboy
Date: 08-01-2008, 17:36 Edited by: badgerboy at: 08-01-2008, 17:40 | The statistics I posted on Forum 2 a while back relating to teams that have reached the last 16 of the CL every year since 1999-2000: "Real Madrid 9/9 Arsenal 8/9. Now 8 in a row. Manchester United 8/9. 4th in group 2005-06. PSV Eindhoven 3/9. Run of 3 years before this one. Barcelona 7/8. Didn't qualify 2003-04. Bayern Munich 7/8. 4 in a row before this year's failure to qualify. Milan 7/8. Now 6 in a row after not qualifying 2001-02. Lyon 6/8 (also lost once in qualifiers). Now 5 in a row. Porto 6/7 (also lost once in qualifiers). Failed in groups 2005-06. Chelsea 6/6. Now 5 in a row. Internazionale 5/6 (also lost once in qualifiers). Now 4 in a row. Juventus 5/6. 5 in a row before being banned for the last two years. Liverpool 5/6. 4 in a row after not qualifying in 2003-04. Valencia 4/6 Roma 4/5" For me the "top 32 teams" in Europe varies quite a lot - at least with regard to the last 10 or so teams - but there are currently about 12 teams that I would consider are consistently in the top 16-20 teams. Based on the above stats (& my own more subjective opinion) these are: Real Madrid, Arsenal, Manchester United, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, Milan, Lyon, Porto, Chelsea, Internazionale, Juventus & Liverpool. Roma & Valencia are pretty close to being included on the list but Valencia are more prone to random "lousy seasons" than any of "the 12" while Roma were "bad enough" to finish only 8th in Serie A as recently as 2004-05. I need another season or two to be convinced that their emergence as a genuine force in Italian football is more than temporary. For a "top 16" (based on more than just this season) I'd probably add Sevilla (two UEFA Cups & have justified their seeding in the CL) and PSV (poor season but consistent CL last 16 in past few years). Current contenders for the "sub-top" part of the 32 (based mostly on results but maybe last year or the year before): Atletico Madrid, Villarreal, Espanyol, Fiorentina, Tottenham, Marseille, Hamburg, Werder Bremen, Schalke, Fenerbahce, Olympiakos, Ajax, Feyenoord, Benfica, Celtic, CSKA Moscow. But then there's a pretty extensive list of other contenders for this list - an even bigger one if you look at teams capable of (or who have aspirations to be capable of) at least one or two pretty good seasons: - almost any team in La Liga, four or five teams from the Premier League (I hope), Lazio, Monaco, PSG, Bordeaux & maybe one or two other French clubs; Leverkusen, Stuttgart & possibly one or two other German teams, Sporting, AZ, Rangers, Galatasaray, Besiktas, Steaua, Rapid, Dinamo, Levski, CSKA, Spartak, Zenit, Shakhtar, Dinamo Kiev, Anderlecht, Club Brugge, Panathinaikos, AEK, Sparta, Slavia, Basel, Rosenborg, Kobenhavn, Salzburg, Austria Wien, Red Star, Partizan, Dinamo Zagreb, Wisla. Apologies if your team isn't yet listed but that's about 35 named teams - so I'm up to about 67 (at least 80 if I start naming more teams from "the big five") |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: gukfva
Date: 08-01-2008, 19:03 | GROUP 1 (order inside the groups not important) Inter, Milan, Arsenal, United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Real, Barcelona, Porto, Ol. Lyon GROUP 2 Sevilla, Valencia, Celtic, Juventus, Bayern, Roma, Espanyol, PSV, Schalke, Olympiacos GROUP 3 Rangers, Panathinaikos, Atletico, Fenerbahce, Fiorentina, Man. City, Benfica, Girondins, Villarreal, Sporting |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Dragonite
Date: 08-01-2008, 20:58 | The best teams in the all time CL ranking (1992/1993 to 2007/2008) are: 1. Real Madrid (*) 2. Manchester United (*) 3. Barcelona (*) 4. AC Milan (*) 5. Bayern 6. Juventus 7. Arsenal (*) 8. FC Porto (*) 9. Lyon (*) 10. Valencia 11. Chelsea (*) 12. Inter (*) 13. Ajax 14. PSV 15. Liverpool (*) 16. Borussia Dortmund 17. Deportivo 18. Dinamo Kiev 19. Galatasaray 20. Bayer Leverkusen 21. Rosenborg 22. Panathinaikos 23. Olympiakos (*) 24. Monaco 25. Spartak Moscow 26. Lazio 27. Roma (*) 28. Paris Saint-Germain 29. Sparta Prague 30. Glasgow Rangers 31. Benfica 32. Werder Bremen 33. Anderlecht 34. Marseille 35. Celtic (*) 36. Feyenoord 37. IFK Gothenburg 38. Fenerbahçe (*) 39. Nantes 40. Club Brugge 41. Lokomotiv Moscow 42. Shakhtar Donetsk 43. Leeds United 44. Newcastle 45. Besiktas 46. Sturm Graz 47. Schalke 04 (*) 48. Steaua Bucharest 49. Lille 50. Bordeaux 51. Sporting 52. Auxerre 53. Boavista 54. CSKA Moscow 55. AEK Athens 56. Fiorentina 57. Villarreal 58. Lens 59. Basel 60. Stuttgart 61. Sevilla (*) 62. Atletico Madrid 63. Kaiserslautern 64. Croatia Zagreb 65. Grasshopper 66. Hertha Berlin 67. Parma 68. Celta de Vigo 69. Real Sociedad 70. Hajduk Split 71. Mallorca 72. Hamburg 73. Legia Warsaw 74. Maccabi Haifa 75. Udinese 76. FC Copenhagen 77. Betis 78. Athletic Bilbao 79. Casino Salzburg 80. Artmedia Bratislava 81. HJK Helsinki 82. AB Alborg 83. Helsingborg 84. Ferencvaros 85. Slavia Prague 86. Blackburn 87. Widzew Lodz 88. FC Thun 89. Heerenveen 90. Genk 91. Maccabi Tel-Aviv 92. Maribor 93. Partizan 94. Molde 95. Brondby 96. Willem II 97. Rapid Vienna 98. Lierse 99. AIK Stockholm 100. FC Kosice 101. Levski Sofia (*)- Still playing In my opinion, the best 32 teams are: Real Madrid, Manchester United, Barcelona and AC Milan (for obvious reasons) Bayern and Juventus (both missed this CL, but Bayern was quarter finalist last season and will be back next season… and they are the 5th best in the CL history! Juventus hasn’t played for the last 2 seasons for the reasons everybody knows, they will be back next season and they will return to stay for a long time, I think) Arsenal, FC Porto, Lyon (obvious reasons) Valencia (couldn’t reach the last 16 this season, but still among the best) Chelsea, Inter (obvious reasons) Ajax and PSV (Ajax has been disappointing over the last seasons, but still, they have 3 Champions Cups and 1 CL, were quarter finalists in 2002/2003 and reached the last 16 in 2005/2006… PSV missed the last 16 this season but before they progressed 3 consecutive times, and are also a former Champions Cup winner). Liverpool (obvious reasons) Those 15 mentioned above, for sure deserve theirs spots in the best 32 European teams. Until the 32nd in the ranking above, teams who “deserve” a spot in Europe’s best 32 are: Sevilla (instead of Deportivo who is “dead” since 2004/2005) Schalke 04 (instead of Borussia Dortmund who is “dead” since 2002/2003) Celtic (instead of Lazio, although the Italians played the CL this season) Fenerbahçe (instead of Sparta Prague, who can’t do anything “significant” since 2003/2004) Marseille (instead of Paris Saint-Germain, Marseille is a former CL winner and had better CL and UEFA Cup performances recently) And the others are: Dinamo Kiev Galatasaray Bayer Leverkusen Rosenborg Panathinaikos Olympiakos Monaco Spartak Moscow Roma Glasgow Rangers Benfica Werder Bremen So, in my opinion the best 32 European teams are: Spain (4). Real Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia and Sevilla England (4): Manchester United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool Italy (4): AC Milan, Juventus, Inter and Roma Germany (4): Bayern, Bayer Leverkusen, Werder Bremen and Schalke 04 France (3): Lyon, Monaco and Marseille Portugal (2): FC Porto and Benfica Holland (2): Ajax and PSV Turkey (2). Galatasaray and Fenerbahçe Greece (2): Panathinaikos and Olympiakos Scotland (2): Celtic and Glasgow Rangers Russia (1): Spartak Moscow Ukraine (1): Dinamo Kiev Norway (1): Rosenborg “In theory”, this could be the group of 32 teams participating in the CL… perhaps just Germany with 4 teams is “strange”, but possible, I guess… As long as Bayern was the CL holder and couldn’t finish top 3 in Germany. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: cankanal
Date: 08-01-2008, 22:12 Edited by: cankanal at: 08-01-2008, 22:13 | @Dragonite Your observations and interpretations are really perfect  I mostly agree with you |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: amirbachar
Date: 09-01-2008, 00:24 | Dragonite, You obviously list your rankings based on the current CL system. Think about the next system: After each year, every country gets one team less in the next year but another two in the qualifing. That is, if England has in one year 4 teams, the next year 3 will qualify directly and another 2 will be in qualifing. YOu must agree that at least Spain and England will evantually have more teams in the CL than what you wrote. Only of course, if the qualifing will be based on the coefficients without CQ/NCQ. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: amirbachar
Date: 09-01-2008, 00:34 | Or maybe even better, because in my previous system the change waas very slow, is the next system: after each year, if a country has x teams, the next year it will have only x/2 direct entries but another x teams in qualifing. If as you say, the teams you listed are really the best, you expect the number of team that will qualify to be no more than x. If I'm right, and those are not really the best teams, more than x will qualify. Of course, that's a bit manipulative, because it will attract even more good player to the top leagues, but let's say it was done several times in one year. Then it's OK, and I'm sure there will be at the end of the year something like 8 teams from Englan and Spain. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Kaiser
Date: 09-01-2008, 01:36 | ...and what if a country haven't got any teams in the previous season? So x=0, x/2=0 ... |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: keeganvogts
Date: 09-01-2008, 09:59 | Cankanal wrote: Is it fair that CL team will play 7 games until the final whereas 3rd team in the group stages can play 9 games in UC?? Yes, it is. A team that becomes 3rd in CLGS has earned at least between 2 and 8 pts and can earn 3 bonus pts until final while a team that becomes 2nd in CLGS has earned at least between 4 and 10 pts and can earn 4 bonus pts until final. In average all 2nd placed teams in CLGS (including those who played 2nd CLGS between 1999/00 and 2002/03) have earned 6.990 pts between 1991/92 and 2006/07 while the 3rd placed teams have earned 5.163 pts. In average the 2nd placed teams in CLGS (not including those who played 2nd CLGS between 1999/00 and 2002/03) have earned 7.015 pts between 1999/00 and 2006/07 while the 3rd placed teams have earned 5.187 pts. The 1st bonus pt for a 2nd placed team of CLGS is earned before the 1st knock out round is played while a 3rd placed team of CLGS has to eliminate 2 more teams in UC before they can earn their 1st bonus pt. From the 64 teams that finished 3rd in CLGS between 1999/00 and 2006/07: 36 are eliminated in the 1st round after GS with 0.972 pts in average 12 are eliminated in the 2nd round after GS with 3,666 pts in average 7 are eliminated in the QF with 7.714 pts in average including bonus pts 3 are eliminated in the SF with 11.666 pts in average including bonus pts 6 reach the final - half of them win with 16 pts in average including bonus pts 75% of the 3rd placed teams from CLGS are eliminated in UC without earning bonus pts. Before a 3rd placed team has got the opportunity to make more pts in UC KO round than a 2nd placed team in CL KO round it makes less points in CLGS. And an opportunity - as the statistics proves - is no guarantee to do so. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: amirbachar
Date: 09-01-2008, 11:33 | Kaiser, I didn't give details, but let's make them: If a team has 0 teams in one year, the next year it will have 1 in qualifing (will start in the first qualifing round, unless few teams should get bye and then it will be by it's own ranking). If a team has 2n team (that is even number of teams), it will have n directly and another 2n in qualifing (half of them in last round and half in the one before the last). If a team has 2n-1 team (that is odd number of teams), it will have n-1 directly and another 2n in qualifing (half of them in last round and half in the one before the last). Basically, if all countries have even number of teams, 16 teams will qualify directly. Any country that has odd number of teams will reduce this number by 1. So, there will probably be 3 qualifing rounds (maybe 4 in some cases). Now that you have enough details, this will show which teams are really the best, becuase the number of teams from each country will not be capped. Of course, it is the total opposite of the 2009 change, that will cause teams from more countries to qualify. |
| Re: Unfair Big Mistake!! UEFA should revise!! | |
| Author: Kaiser
Date: 09-01-2008, 20:53 | +1. Totally agree. But if you tell this system to Platini, he will swoon... Atletico to CL?! - he will say. |