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Author: Dneprchemp
Date: 02-12-2007, 16:24
| So, I wonder to know, what the changes in access list in this case are. Any thoughts? |
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Author: Cirdan
Date: 02-12-2007, 20:17
Edited by: Cirdan
at: 03-12-2007, 03:12 | mmh... possible options to various problems (the solutions that I think are more likely are mentioned first):
A) CL TH is not used because TH is qualified as 1st-3rd in top 3 league:
Option 1: Additional direct access goes to the 13th champion, and less matches in Champions qualification (I guess it would be as few preliminary round matches as possible instead of someone getting a bye in Q1), no influx on UEFA Cup
Option 2: an additional 6th qualification spot in the Champions qualification (preliminary round could be abolished, problem: 2 more teams in UC qualificaition round 4 and 1 more team in UC group stage, that's why I think this option is less likely)
Option 3: an additional 6th qualification spot in the non-Champions-Qualification (6 teams in NCQ2, 3 winners + 9 in NCQ3, would mean 1 more team in UC group stage, 2 less teams in UCQ4, so no real problem in the UEFA Cup, I doubt that the UEFA would give an additional spot to the top nations away so easily)
B) CL Titleholder finishes 4th in one of the top 3 leagues
option 1: TH association still has to send a team to the non-Champions-qualifications (probably 3rd then), rest like A)
option 2: TH association gets 4 direct entrys, assoc 16 gets an additional place in the non-Champs-Qualification, problem: the champion of #16 would start earlier than the runner-up, would also guarantee the runner-up of #16 a place in the UCQ4, but not the champion.
option 3: TH association gets 4 direct entrys, in the non-Champs-Qualification #8-#15 (8 teams) start in first round, #1-#7 (6 teams) play second round with the 4 winners. 2 teams less in UCQ4, so, later starts for UC teams.
C) CL TH finishes outside of the top4 of a top3 country
Big problem. Was anything new decided after the Liverpool incident? My first option would be the TH gets one direct access, Champion & runner up get the other 2, N3 plays qualification and N4 goes to UEFA Cup. The rest like A)
D) UEFA Cup Titleholder qualifys for the Champions League
option 1: CW of #16 & #17 start a round later, N2 of #19, #20 start a round later, N3 of #22, #23 start a round later (or other teams starting in later qualifying rounds than now).
option 2: UEFA Cup runner-up gets the TH spot (if runner-up plays CL, too, it could go on with the best semifinalist, determined by coefficiant, and so on, or aborted at some point and changed to option 1). |
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Author: amirbachar
Date: 02-12-2007, 22:31
| Very nice analysis, but you have a small mistake.
Since the TH spot is saved as one of the 22 automatic spots,
in case the 4th in England is the TH for example, all 4 team could qualify automatically, and the non campions qualifing can give 5 spots and not 4, so it wouldn't be a problem. unfortunately I think that is what will happen, that is one more spot for the big clubs.
I think the best thing would be that the 3rd ranked team will be in the non champions qualifing. |
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Author: exile
Date: 02-12-2007, 23:03
| A number of possibilities for the tournament holder
1. TH is either champion of 1 to 12, 2nd or 3rd of 1 to 3,
or 2nd of 4 to 6
possible effect - automatic place given to champion of 13
(and the effect ripples down to the earlier rounds)
2. TH is 4th of 1 to 3, 3rd of 4 to 6, or 2nd of 7 to 15
Now this is more difficult - UEFA have always adopted the principle that clubs at the start of the domestic season know exactly how many CL/UC places are available. This means that it will not be possible to promote a UEFA Cup team to one of the non-champions places.
So - more likely that there will be a vacancy in the non-champions rounds. But - that then leaves a hole in the UEFA Cup either at QR4 or Group Stage! |
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Author: Cirdan
Date: 03-12-2007, 03:08
Edited by: Cirdan
at: 03-12-2007, 03:13 | @amirbacher:
it would be a problem because you have one team less in the non champions qualification. see B) option 2 or 3. but you were right, I had option 3 wrong, I corrected it. |
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Author: badgerboy
Date: 03-12-2007, 12:27
Edited by: badgerboy
at: 03-12-2007, 12:48 | 1) Where the CL TH is already qualified for the group stages I would find any solution other than:
"Champion of country 13 qualifies directly" -
very surprising indeed.
I would also agree that - in such circumstances - the preliminary round will probably be reduced to two teams. That will also keep the number of teams dropping to the UEFA Cup constant.
I've just realised this bit really answers the original question - I think. But other scenarios (where the TH spot is used) are more interesting.
2) Where the CL TH has qualified for the non-Champions qualifying round I would guess that the solution will be the same as this year. This year Italy kept their two "direct access" teams & were joined by Milan - they had one less team in the qualifiers. From 2009 it will be 3+1 rather than 2+1 - & there will be no teams left in the qualifiers.
As regards the affect on the UEFA Cup (1 less team crossing over). Well this will just involve changing the access list slightly.
CW of country 16 can start in Q4, CW of 28 in Q3 & No. 2 of 35 & 36 in Q2. I don't see this as being a particularly big problem to solve as it's no different from adjusting the access list based on TH spot being used or not used & it can all be done at the end of the previous season when all the qualifying circumstances are known.
It's also possible - for the top 6 countries at least - that their lowest-ranked team would have to drop down from the group stage to the qualifiers. But unlike Cirdan I find this a less likely option. It didn't happen this year so I see no reason why it should in 2009-10.
3) Where the CL TH has qualified for the Champions qualifying. An unlikely scenario maybe - but easy enough to solve. Obviously this would mean one less team in the Champions qualifying section. If the Champion came from countries 13 to 15 then adjustments just as if the Champion of country 13 had moved across (see 1 above) while if the Champion came from a lower-ranked country only 4 teams need play a Preliminary round.
4) Finally - where the TH has not qualified for the CL at all I would imagine exactly the same scenario as in option 2 (and if Milan had finished 5th rather than 4th last year). So - still a free spot in the non-Champions qualifying section because the lowest-ranked team from the country concerned would drop into the UEFA Cup. |
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Author: mabo
Date: 03-12-2007, 17:30
| I have already posted the Gazzetta article.
CL format (based on the results of 2006/2007, with Milan as title holder)
According to this chart the 3rd placed team (Lazio) would not have to drop down to the qualifiers. I don?t know how reliable it is, but it is the most likely option from my point of view.
By the way "Sportbild Online" (website of a German sport magazine) announced that the UEFA strategy committee agreed to limit further the number of spots per country. For example: If Werder Bremen win the UCL but don?t qualify via their domestic league, the 3rd placed team will further have to drop out into the UEFA Cup.
Sportbild Online article |
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Author: badgerboy
Date: 03-12-2007, 22:06
| Mabo
That's been the rule since the Liverpool case anyway.
The only thing that might change in addition is the loss of a UEFA Cup spot.
For example now - in the unlikely event the CL winner fails to qualify for Europe at all the CL allocation for their country is restricted but they can have an extra UEFA Cup team. Maybe this is changing? |
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Author: mabo
Date: 04-12-2007, 12:28
| Yes, I know it is the same rule as this year. According to the Sportbild Online article there won?t be any changes to this principle. Of course it is not a surprise, but now you can definitely exclude the option of promoting a UEFA Cup team to one of the non-champions places.
UEFA announced yesterday that the centralised marketing approach now includes the third qualifying round. Maybe an indication for a constant number of matches? |
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Author: badgerboy
Date: 04-12-2007, 13:09
| Centralised marketing for the UEFA Cup groups too.
Hopefully that means someone will have a highlights package for all games. I hope UEFA does the same on their website as they do for CL games now.
Otherwise a slight shame that the kick-off times of games have to be "fixed" at two times. I like the spread of action on a UEFA Cup matchday. That said - the availability of those good highlights would compensate for this.
On QR3 though. I don't know of any reasonable scenario that doesn't have the same number of matches in that round (10). Earlier qualifying rounds almost certainly will vary slightly but QR3 should be constant. |
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