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Author: nikola_belgrade
Date: 10-10-2007, 12:00

European cup semi-final 1971: PAO – Crvena Zvezda 3:0 (1:4) fraud!!!

In all Serbian papers this morning you can read interview, recently broadcast in Greece, with Despina Gaspari (sorry for wrong spelling), wife of former general and Premier of Greek government in that time, Yorgos Papadopulos (sorry again). She said that return leg in Athens was deceit and that her husband told her before kick off about paying Crvena Zvezda (Red Star) to lose game because of high national interest of Greece!

I was born decade later, so don't know anything about the game except what i read. All this years that game was suspicious but finally we have someone to confirm that. And you can ask many questions about it. I have only one:

Can UEFA investigate that case retroactiv, and take some measures against involving teams? Let's say, ban them from Europe for 5 years or something. Because this happen under they authority, in their competition (not like case of Milan, Juve in Italy).

I think they should.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 10-10-2007, 12:38

Sorry but I think there must be some kind of "statute of limitations".

There is for most crimes - except murder.

There are many allegations swimming around about games in the 60s and 70s. A few against those lovely Italians.

For example Inter v Liverpool in the 1965 European Cup semi-final.

From an interview with Ian Callaghan on liverpoolway.co.uk:

"At the time did you think that the away leg of the Inter Milan tie was fixed?

Well at the time you don't know whether its fixed or not, but things happened which shouldn't have happened. They kicked the ball out of Tommy Lawrence's hands from behind and then put it in the net. But we didn't win the game, we lost the tie and even though it was proven years later that the ref had taken a bung, at the time you just play the game and get on with it".

And there have been many allegations that Juventus-Derby at the same stage in 1973 was also fixed.

From Richard Williams in the Guardian last year:

"Crerand also mentioned the scandal of 1973, when Brian Clough's Derby County were denied a place in the European Cup final by a Juventus team whose general manager was later exposed, thanks to investigations by Brian Glanville of the Sunday Times, as having attempted to influence referees. The Golden Fix, as it became known, led to no serious investigation but its echoes were to be detected in scandals of later years".

It's less clear in this case whether the attempt to influence the referee worked - although Brian Clough, Derby manager at the time, obviously thought so. From the wiki: "They lost to Juventus in a controversial match which was subject to subsequent allegations that the Italian club had bribed the match officials, leading Clough to call the Italians "cheating bastards"".

Are the Italians the only ones that have been "at it". I would like to say yes but in reality I fear not.

In these old cases it would be nice to get a "conviction" or at least an admission of "wrongdoing" but I think making sure the game is clean today is more important and certainly punishing clubs now for things that happened more than say five years ago is too much.

Ensuring that today's game is "clean" is a tough enough job anyway. If there was so much dodginess so long ago - presumably just so teams could say "we won" as there wasn't so much money in it - how much incentive is there today with millions at stake. Worrying...

Author: ea152
Date: 10-10-2007, 15:13

Dear Nikola. The story is well known in Greece. Since I was younger - I'm 38 right now - I had heard allegations about the 3-0 on the 2nd leg that allowed Panathinaikos to go to the final after having lost 1-4 in Beograd. Almost all fans of Olympiakos and AEK are certain that the return leg had been fixed by the then military government of Greece (that would like to show some progress in sports) and the Crvena Zvezda officials (they might be from the government as well as we speak for the time of Marshall Tito). Of course Panathinaikos fans and officials deny the story. The interview of the wife of G. Papadopoulos was broadcasted in April. She said that during the 2nd half of the game she had become very stressed about the progress of the game, but then the then Vice-Prime-Minister S. Pattakos and the ambassador of Yugoslavia who were sitting next to her, told her that she should not worry because the game was fixed. On the next day of the TV interview, the two sports papers that support Olympiakos had the story on the main title. On the other hand S. Pattakos denied both the incident and the fixing allegations. However, the rumours are still so intense in Greece so it might have happened.

Author: Kuiva.maa
Date: 10-10-2007, 18:05

The whole issue was brought back to the spotlight a few months ago during a tv interview of the widow of the then head of the military junta,(Despoina Papadopoulou,spouse of dictator Papadopoulos - she is an AEK fan btw). She was worried and nervous so Pattakos (one of the top junta officials) told her to relax cause pao will win and it is arranged. She then commented that pattakos shouldn't mention such things while the ambassador of Yugoslavia is sitting next to them. Pattakos said "don't worry he doesn't understand us" but the ambassador replied in perfect Greek "Don't worry madam,the game is arranged". Some might say that this is a serious allegation,others that it is just a joke of the two men towards the (quite naive indeed) woman. I'm a die hard AEK fan but I say that the whole story is of no importance, PAO had a great euro campaign that season and deserved to reach the final.

Re: EC semi 1971 PAO - Red Star
Author: Rohan Date: 11-10-2007, 00:55	Come on, not Tito again...

Author: nikola_belgrade
Date: 11-10-2007, 10:00
Edited by: nikola_belgrade
at: 11-10-2007, 10:02

"PAO had a great euro campaign that season and deserved to reach the final"

I believe you. But everyone in Serbia thinks that Red Star was better side, and the talks about fixing the match appear, i think, because of that. So, you know, when better side lose important game like that with ease, people start asking question.
I don't say it is fixed for sure...remember Deportivo - Milan recently in CL. So, miracle is possibly.

But still..."where is a smoke, there is a fire" (on serbian: "gde ima dima...")

Re: EC semi 1971 PAO - Red Star
Author: ea152 Date: 12-10-2007, 13:23	Whatever happaned to this game, Panathinaikos scored the 2 out their 3 goals after the midpoint of the second half - I am not 100% sure, but I think they made it 2-0 on the 64th minute and scored the 3rd goal in the 82nd minute.

Re: EC semi 1971 PAO - Red Star
Author: modano Date: 12-10-2007, 16:04	Well, if Panathinaikos is punished (let's say 5 year ban as suggested in the first post), imo Red Star should be punished as well. Match-fixing doesn't involve one side, it also involves either the other side or the referee. In this case Red Star lost voluntarely after accepting a reward from the Greeks, so logical conclusion: if PAO gets a ban, Red Star should also be banned.

Author: nikola_belgrade
Date: 12-10-2007, 21:30

modano,

if you read my first post again, you will see that i wrote "take some measures against involving TEAMS". So, not just PAO.

My opinion: should be investigation? yes
will be investigation from UEFA? no

Because, someone else here wrote, it would be hard to investigate and confirm this story after all this years.
And i saw here post about another suspicious games in 60s and 70s, if all this cases wasn't investigated than, i don't see they would be today.

Re: EC semi 1971 PAO - Red Star
Author: Kuiva.maa Date: 12-10-2007, 22:45	Check badgerboy's post about "statute of limitations". Perhaps "period of prescription" rings a bell,it certainly does if your studies included law courses as well. Starting an investigation about this issue more than 36 years after the end of that match is pointless if not dangerous. I'd love to elaborate on that but this forum is not the place for such discussion.

Re: EC semi 1971 PAO - Red Star
Author: exile Date: 13-10-2007, 23:25	Exactly. PAO and Red Star players would be punished for something that happened before they were born!

Re: EC semi 1971 PAO - Red Star
Author: mckenzie87 Date: 14-10-2007, 23:29	This was 36 years ago. Get over it.

Author: nikola_belgrade
Date: 15-10-2007, 09:41
Edited by: nikola_belgrade
at: 15-10-2007, 09:45

Than, why is it now in all serbian newspapers?

We serbs love conspiracy theories so:
if it is broadcast in Greece in april (like someone said here), why is it in ALL newspapers in October? (day after the draw for UCGS)
Someone could published it earlier.
Maybe they have agreement to let Crvena Zvezda play Europe without tensions? Or, maybe because now Crvena Zvezda playing better and better every game? Because we were better in game with Partizan (but draw 2-2 away because of poor ref), not so weak like they or most of people think? (look at Rangers in CL, are we poor team because didn't beat team with 2 wins in 2 CL games) Hmm...

I said, we serbs love conspiracy theories...