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Author: marathon
Date: 01-10-2007, 17:32

as recent news follow it is said that usa france and england are moving forward to recognising kosovo's independence within next spring.
if such thing happens we assume this new country will have their new football federation etc.
and they would appeal in uefa in order to be accepted as member.
if that happens within 2008 and the new forecoming federation of kosovo enters in fact, how would that affect the proceedings, standards, team numbers, etc in the new champions' league and uefa cup if we consider that from 2009/2010 or 2010/2011 we should count i guess 3 more teams within the new format that is about to be voted?

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: nikola_belgrade Date: 01-10-2007, 18:29	First of all, if that really happen, 3 more or less teams in competition, who cares. And, as a Serbian i see this topic only as provocation so please delete it, you or moderator of this forum.

Author: marathon
Date: 01-10-2007, 19:57

i do not beleive this topic should be deleted. sports is for everyone without RACISM or POLITICAL INVOLVEMENT. i feel sorry for what has been going on in your country but that has nothing to do with sport. whether it hurts or not. SPORT THUS FOOTBALL UNITE POPULATIONS ALL OVER THE GLOBE. so i do not see it as a provocative thing. and then i only asked on information level. i do have this right, no?

and also i was expecting a more serious answer from someone more professional.

peace

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Krys Date: 01-10-2007, 20:00 Edited by: Krys at: 01-10-2007, 23:29	I hope it's fantasy. From the nearby topic. "UEFA and FIFA would in the future accept UN-recognized countries membership only." UN will never recognize if Serbia is against. It's politics. I think to close this topic would be a good idea.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Krys Date: 01-10-2007, 20:00 Edited by: Krys at: 01-10-2007, 23:28	XXX

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: FK_Leotar Date: 02-10-2007, 03:23	Ooooo allmighty Bert if u r up there close thi topic. I am very angry seeing something like this.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 02-10-2007, 18:00	Topic should remain open. This is no political forum, but a football forum. No censuring here (this is not Serbia!!!) If Kosovo gets independence, then off course they should be allowed into UEFA. If the situation stays like it is now, then they won't, since UEFA doesn't allow "countries" which are not recognised by UN.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Krys Date: 02-10-2007, 19:22 Edited by: Krys at: 02-10-2007, 19:27	It depends on what you (and UEFA) mean by independence.. If u mean that it should be recognized only by US and England - it's one thing (realistic). If it should be recognized by UN - it's another thing (very, very doubtful). So if UEFA decision will be based on UN recognition (I believe it will be so) than it seems to me very doubtful that Kosovo gets its own team in the nearest future..

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: executor Date: 02-10-2007, 19:57	Give me one good reason for Kosovo not to unite with Albania.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Krys Date: 02-10-2007, 20:21	Heh, Give me one good reason for Kosovo to unite with Albania)))

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Integral Date: 02-10-2007, 21:51	Oh, and after Kosovo should UEFA accept Abhazia, South Osetia, Tchetchnya, Crimea or Gibraltar? Joke. I think this topic shouldn't be discussed here

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Integral Date: 02-10-2007, 22:17	Actually, there are several federations in UEFA which are not recognized by UN as independent countries. I mean Scotland, Wales, England and N.Ireland. So, UEFA may accept Kosovo without UN recognition...

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Krys Date: 02-10-2007, 22:50	About Great Britain see another topic. It is an exception.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: FK_Leotar Date: 03-10-2007, 02:31	Fuck u all for discusing this topic and fuck u Bert for leting it be. KOSOVO IS HEART OF SERBIA.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: FK_Leotar Date: 03-10-2007, 02:33	@Forza-AZ U r stupid, propaganda is all u r hearing.

Author: jpcccc
Date: 03-10-2007, 03:45
Edited by: jpcccc
at: 03-10-2007, 03:50

First, some question:

currently, do teams from kosovo, from non-serbian areas, play in Serbia's league without problems ?

Or there are too many serbians crying out to them about 'the heart of serbia'?

As long as football is promoted and integrated, i do not see the need for UEFA to accept Kosovo. However, if that is not so, things are different and Kosovo could have an independent national association and UEFA having to accept it even without political independence.
Yet, i believe UEFA wants to end these exceptions.

Author: nikola_belgrade
Date: 03-10-2007, 09:41

"Topic should remain open. This is no political forum, but a football forum. No censuring here (this is not Serbia!!!)"

When this guy marathon opened topic, the tittle was "KOSOVO INDEPENDENT". Tell me that wasn't political or provocative?! Than, probably Bert, changed it to "What if...".
I'm just asking how relevant is Kosovo or question of 3 more teams for Platini proposal? We are not talking about 20 or 30 teams. If China joins UEFA it would be the same, 3 new teams starting with zero points. So, nothing to discuss here, except...

No, this is not Serbia, but is this Alkmar?! I can't ask someone to close political, non football topic?

"Give me one good reason for Kosovo not to unite with Albania"

If that happens, 3 teams will come from Albanian FA. So again, why is question of Kosovo relevant to Platini proposal?!

"do teams from kosovo, from non-serbian areas, play in Serbia's league without problems?"

They don't won't to play at all. As i know, they have their own league.
Just like they don't won't to accept serbian institutions etc.

I still think this topic is political and provocative. And i can understand marathon only if he is Albanian.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: patzo Date: 03-10-2007, 10:11	kosovo is Srbija just like Macedonia is Bulgaria and Moldova is Romania, Cypros Greece and so on.... BUT in this BAD world there is many BAD countrys mainly from western Europe and west from the Atlantic ocean who dont give a .uck for the human rights of the small nations like Bulgaria Serbia Greece and Romania! CCCP

Author: cska
Date: 03-10-2007, 10:22

@Nikola_Belgrade and FK_Leotar
As a Bulgarian I know that any topic about Kosovo is "provocative" in your opinion. Of course, topics about UK and England-Scotland-Wales-N.Ireland or about Gibraltar or Faroe Isles or Greenland or Montenegro were not "provocative"... Nobody from Spain or Scotland or Wales or Denmark was outraged and required deletion of topic. Nobody Basque or Catalan or Flemish or Walooner was outrageous about any topic for Catalunya, Euskadia, Vlaanderen or Walloon.
Only you see "provocations" in any mere question if it is about Kosovo.
Sorry, but as a Balkan man I will remind you of a proverb: "The whole village can't do anything to you that you can do to yourself" (Celo selo ne moze da ti pricini to, sto ti sam mozes da si pricinis). Sorry if my West Bulgarian dialect is only 80% like Serbian. This proverb is valid for Milosevic and all Serbian polititians who ruled together with him. Nobody was angry with Serbia, but his deep authoritarism and obstinancy and unwillingness to negotiate with Slovenes, Croats and Bosniaks and his decision to abolish Kosovo authonomy were the reasons for Serbia to remain alone. Just remember how stable was Yugoslavia under Tito and what happened after Milosevic came.
Sorry, but historically Kosovo is the heart of Serbia. But only historically. Ethnically it is not. Historically Kiev is the heart of Russia. Now it is of Ukraine. Historically Ohrid was the capital of Bulgaria. Now it is in Macedonia (oops, all Greeks on this forum will attack me that "Macedonia" is a region in Greece with capital Thessaloniki). Historically Belgrade was the Bulgarian fortress named Alba Bulgarica by the Pope and the pupils of Cyril and Methodius came there and the Bulgarian tsar introduced the letters which now the world calls "Cyrillic". Now Belgrade (which means the White City, just as Alba Bulgarica means the White Bulgarian City) is the capital of Serbia.
Sorry, but history is about the lessons from the previous generations, it is not about the present situation.
So, is Kosovo "the heart of Serbia" or not - it does not have anything related to UEFA and football.
By the way, in the same way Romanians may claim that "Moldova is Romanian", Bulgarians may claim Macedonia or the Hungarians may claim Transylvania. But those historical aspirations don't relate to present reality.
And FK_Leotar, you asked about Marathon. As far as I saw from his previois posts, he is probably Greek (also his name is a famous battlefield where Greeks defeated the Persians in antiquity).
When after the Balkan war 1912-13 Serbia and Greece wanted to share Albania and the access to the Adriatic sea, the major powers were not so stupid and Brittain summoned the conference in London. So, in 1913 Albania gained independence. After that, being deprived of your aspirations, you turned your sight towards the Bulgarian part of Macedonia. And that was the aim of the Western powers - Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia to quarrel and never to be united. And the Balkan Entante broke apart. However, tides change. Bulgaria was great empire from 681 to 1396, but is now a small country just like Austria is now after having been an empire.
Serbia was big once upon a time, but now even Montenegro left you with 90% of its population ethnic Serbs. If your ethnic fellows don't want to live with you, how would you persuade the Albanians?
Several years ago I participated in the anti-NATO demonstrations against the strikes in Serbia. Now I think that was necessary for you to get rid of a retrograde and authocratic polititian who actually hindered your country.
If some day Kosovo beats Serbia 1:0 don't blame the other countries in the world for things that were caused by your own polititians.
And just like Greeks can live with the fact that the birthplaces of Orpheus and Spartacus are in Bulgaria, just as Bulgarians can live with Belgrad, Bucharest and Ohrid outside Bulgaria, you Serbs should now live with the fact that Kosovo polje is not in Serbia.

Author: marathon
Date: 03-10-2007, 10:51
Edited by: marathon
at: 03-10-2007, 11:00

first of all i am Greek , since someone asked. i repeat my question was not for any provocation. no such purpose behind it. since i red that propably kosovo could get independence and since we are going to have already 214 teams across europe i was asking how the possibility to have 3 more teams inside this platini plan could affect it or change it.

i feel sorry if someone misunderstood but that is not my problem. all this hostility is not necessary and we should be discussing football matters.

someone said awful things for bert etc... unless he apologizes he should not be writing here anymore.
this is FREEDOM of speech and noone can prevent or order things.

cska:
i agree with what you write about history although i should tell you that the macedonia - greece matter is a bit more complex. at the time being their name on national level according to agreements is fyrom, but not everyone respects that. not to mention their flag where that symbol is greek , found on greek soil a vergina and it was the symbol of macedonian kings like phillip and his son alexander the great. it is a totally different thing to request by right your independance and another to use history and symbols that are not yours in order to create a historical background and base that you eventually do not have or that your current one is not sufficient.

peace to all. please no more fanatisms.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 03-10-2007, 11:05

"I'm just asking how relevant is Kosovo or question of 3 more teams for Platini proposal? We are not talking about 20 or 30 teams. If China joins UEFA it would be the same, 3 new teams starting with zero points. So, nothing to discuss here, except"...

It isn't very relevant at all. But if you search on here you'll find many topics about small "countries" and the likelihood of their being allowed to boost UEFA's already swelling numbers.

Gibraltar is a very popular one. Someone even started a topic on forum 2 (or maybe wrote on an existing one) about the likelihood of Belgium becoming two countries. Far less likely to happen in the near future I would say.

I don't think people start these topics for "political reasons" but for genuine interest in the possibility of UEFA/FIFA getting more new members.

For me - from a purely footballing perspective - I'm all for independence for Kosovo, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Gibraltar & Cornwall - however many it takes to make the "straw that broke the camels back" and force UEFA into prequalifying the smaller nations for major tournaments!

Politically, I don't know enough about it. In general my sympathy tends to lie with the country seeking independence - if more than say 60% of the people want it. That's still mostly true although tempered somewhat by talking to my Canadian friend about Quebec some years ago. This would certainly be the case with Scotland & Wales. In the modern world it wouldn't make any obvious difference to my life whatsoever. I could still visit those countries in exactly the same way as now - I could still go and live there in exactly the same way as now if I chose to do so...

But I would suspect (I don't know for sure) that for a large proportion of the Scottish & Welsh people the same is equally true the other way. How relevant is "independence"?. They are still perfectly free to teach and speak their own languages should they choose to do so (more relevant for the Welsh perhaps in recent times) and to express their own cultural identities. Independence wouldn't change an awful lot - except with regard to tax-raising, government funding & other dull unfathomable stuff.

If the people of Kosovo have/will have the same freedoms I don't see a huge difference between independence & "autonomy" but I don't know enough about the current situation in Kosovo to judge this.

Nor do I have a mindset which really understands why most Serbians want to keep Kosovo so badly. That again is a general thing - not specific to just this situation. I'd say the same about any "independence-minded" region where the population was massively "ethnic" and there was no obvious benefit other than "principle" in keeping that region part of one big whole.

As far as I know Kosovo is a very poor region with no obvious economic resource for the rest of Serbia. Assuming fair governance of an autonomous Kosovo the wealthier regions of Serbia would have to subsidise Kosovo so - economically - the rest of Serbia would be "better off without it".

So aside from the "principle" - as in: "it's "our" land and it's been "our" land for x hundred years so we're keeping it" I don't see the point. And I don't think this should be the point...

This is genuine bewilderment. I get that it must matter - because it seems to matter to so many people. But my own mindset just can't get me to the position of really, truly understanding why.

Apologies for the politics. Bert will probably get round to deleting now I've wasted time giving my views...

Author: Krys
Date: 03-10-2007, 11:15

2 �ska

Milosevic was only one reason (of many) and not the most important of the war at Balkans. The main is the crisis and then disintegration of the USSR.
The main difference between Kosovo and Macedonia, Moldova, etc is that Kosovo is a part of Serbia (it is written in all internatinal documents and agreements). And Macedonia, Moldova, .. are independent countries.
By this international agreements also a part of country can not separate from the whole country if this country doesn't allow this.

Author: executor
Date: 03-10-2007, 11:24

@cska

Great lesson in history. However, I do have a question for you: why wouldn't Bulgarians live with the thought of Bucharest being outside Bulgaria? I consider my history knowledge pretty good and I don't remember a Bulgarian empire having control north of the Danube (or, to be more clear, consistent control). And the city's foundation had nothing to do with Bulgarians. So, why would you say that? (this is just a curious question, nothing more).

About Kosovo: actually, I'm not really interested about its fate. What ever happens to it - remaining part of Serbia, gaining independece or uniting with Albania - is the same for me. Badgerboy is right in saying that, for how poor that region is, this "battle" is quite worthless.

Author: zanzibar
Date: 03-10-2007, 11:42
Edited by: zanzibar
at: 03-10-2007, 11:48

"Milosevic was only one reason (of many) and not the most important of the war at Balkans. The main is the crisis and then disintegration of the USSR.
The main differen�e between Kosovo and Macedonia, Moldova, etc is that Kosovo is a part of Serbia (it is written in all internatinal documents and agreements). And Macedonia, Moldova, .. are independent countries.
By this international agreements also a part of country can not separate from the whole country if this country doesn't allow this."

forever...

Author: nikola_belgrade
Date: 03-10-2007, 12:28

I don't want to ban you to talk about Kosovo, i respect everyones opinion. But this is football forum, so till now how many of you posted something about football in this topic?! Do you see my point? Only politics...

BTW, i don't need lessons in history or political situation in Balkan, i know everything about it. Maybe more than i need or have to know.
But i don't want to wrote about it because it is football forum. I just said what will be if this topic stays open and unfortunately i was right. Politics, politics, politics...

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: 1923 Date: 03-10-2007, 13:02	as uefa accepted membership of faroe islands, it gives right to all other federations in similar situation

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: dinamozagreb Date: 03-10-2007, 15:28	Clubs from Kosovo are competing in EHF handball club competitions.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: badgerboy Date: 03-10-2007, 17:52	1923 No it doesn't because the rules were changed since Faroe Islands were allowed to join. Hence the "no" to Gibraltar recently.

Author: ignjat63
Date: 03-10-2007, 20:17
Edited by: ignjat63
at: 03-10-2007, 20:20

badger

i read carefully your long post up there. I'll try to share with you some thoughts.

Balkan nations have been for the most part of the last 500 years "under" some superpower or other. Be it Ottoman empire, Austria hungary or to some extent even Russia.

Only in the last few decades it has become possible for exYugoslav nations to have countries of their own. At last we can be free in the land of our own! It has profound significance to them, historically, psychologically, culturally and in every other concievable way. It may be small, it may be poor, it may be backward, it may be totally insignificant but at least it is our own! That is how ex-yugoslav nations think. There is nothing rational about it.

On the othe hand, these regions have never been remotely democratic. Two totalitarean ideologies fought for supremacy here (I mean whole ex-yu region) especially in the 2nd world war. For a while communism dominated and put nationalism under the rug, so to speak, but then nationalism won with a vengeance. You guys from the west would be seriously wrong to think that in ex-yu parts democracy is now being slowly established. In fact, one form of totalitarianism took place of an earlier and different form. Don't kid yourself that for example Croatia is more democratic than Serbia.

It has everything to do with Kosovo. Never in its history has Serbia tried to solve problems of all Kosovo citizens in a democratic way. But it most certainly does not mean that Albanians will even try to do so. The hatred is such that Serbs and Albanians cannot live next to each other as neighnours without putting their lives seriously in danger. It is as simple as that.

Author: jpcccc
Date: 04-10-2007, 00:47
Edited by: jpcccc
at: 04-10-2007, 00:49

Ok, i got my answer among all that hate...

1) Kosovo teams have a league of their own. Yet, in political terms, Kosovo is part of Serbia (at least until UN accept it as a country).

2) UEFA can open an exception like it has done for Faroe Isl., etc. It has autonomy for that and there is really a separate league/association in formation.

3) Current UEFA policy is to not open any such exceptions (Gibraltar was turned down under this new policy). So, UEFA can only accept Kosovo after changing its policy back to what it was before the Gibraltar proposal.

The final conclusion is: yes, UEFA can do it but it seems very likely that it won't.

For me, this topic is over. Remember: UEFA is not an history judge. It is only about teams playing football in Europe.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Krys Date: 04-10-2007, 02:12	I will add. It seems to me very unlikely that UN will accept Kosovo as country..

Author: cska
Date: 05-10-2007, 10:28

@ executor
To answer your question. If you have a good knowledge of history, you will know that from 681 to 971 Bulgaria controlled the lands north of Danube. In 927 the Bulgarian lands included the city of Pest, while Buda was in the Frankish empire. Now both cities are parts of Buda-Pest. Also, from 1185 to 1396 there existed the second Bulgarian empire, but the tsars were of Wallachian origin. The historical situation was that Wallachia and Moldova did not exist as countries in those early medieval times.
By the way, in 1396,after Bulgaria fell under the Ottoman empire, the heirs to the throne fled to Wallachia to ask their cousin the voivoda (English: "warlord") for help against the Turks. Until 17th century the prototype of modern Bulgarian language (named "Church Slavonic", which I understand, but Russians for example don't) was the official language of Wallachian warlords. They used the Cyrrilic alphabet. Many names in Romania (including Bistrita) are of Bulgarian origin. 20% of your words are of Bulgarian origin. By the way, even the Wallachian title "voivoda" is of Bulgarian origin - it comes from "voina" (war) and "vodia" (lead, rule) - thus it means "warlord". The same with "voinic" - it comes from "voina" and literally means "soldier". But as far as I know, now it means "strong person" in Romanian.
By the way, as far as I know, your history books call the second Bulgarian empire (1185-1396) "the Wallacho-Bulgarian empire".
Also, Bucharest was controlled by Bulgaria in more recent times (WW1), but control has nothing to do with "ownership".
So, mentioning of Bucharest is not nationalistic reminiscence. It was just to show that we have a lot common in history.
@ our Serbian friends here
I already mentioned one proverb. Now comes another one: Beauty does not come by force. (In BG: Nasila hubist ne stava. In West BG (possibly East SB: Nema lepota silom). Kosovo will not go back to Serbia only because of the famous Battle at the Kosovo Field, where King Lazar defeated the Ottoman sultan and after that was defeated by the son of the sultan. Yes, Kosovo is related with the first great moment in history when Serbians defeated a major power of its time. But, unfortunately for you, now Kosovo is inhabited by 90% Albanians, who do not feel quite compassionate to your history. You can't "force the beauty to come". You can't force the Albanians in Kosovo to think of Serbia as of their motherland.
The problem is that even the ethnic Serbians (officially 92% of the population of Montenegro) voted to break away from Serbia.
Even if your ethnic brothers decided not to live with you, how can you expect that Albanians will do it.
And, by the way, Kosovo was not integral part of Serbia as you said. Before 1981, under Tito, Kosovo and Metochia was an authonomous province, Vojvodina was authonomous too. But Milosevic decided to be a hard-liner and he abolished that authonomy. And the problems started. They became more obvious after 1989, when USSR lost control over the Soviet Bloc. But they existed.
Believe me, as a Balkan man, I quite well know the history, the psychology and the national sentiments and peculiarities of all my neighbors, because Bulgaria is in the center of the Balkans (the whole region is named after a mountain in Bulgaria - the Balkan range, which is Stara planina (Old mountain) in Bulgarian, Hemus (or Hemimont) in Greek and... Balkan in Turkish). My neighbors geographically are Turks, Greeks, Serbs, Romanians (sorry for not mentioning "Macedonians", but they usurped the name of a long ago disappeared "ethnos"/people, nation/).
Now, from the point of view of football, before discussing about Kosovo in UEFA, we must be sure that Kosovo will not merge with Albania or that Kosovo will not go back as an "authonomous" region in Serbia.

Author: Krys
Date: 05-10-2007, 13:10

About separation of Montenegro - it is a complicated question.
Many serbian montenegrians didn't want to do it but the politicians want.. they had the administrative resource, media propaganda, control under elections, etc
the albanians and muslims in montenegro also wanted..
and many serbian montenegrians were abroad at May especcially students in Belrade..
If there were elections in August - there would be another result...
By the way the advantage was about 300 votes. It is nonsence.
In every country there would be reelections after that.
But montenegrian government said there was no money for that..

Now Montenegro is selling everything it had before. Land most of all. There is sense to do it in the nearest future but in long-term it is a disaster..

PS I am not serbian or montenegrian I talked to some people there in 2006.. so that's my resumes.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: martinjt Date: 05-10-2007, 19:14	I do feel a bit sorry for the Serbs. Kosovo independence means that any ethnic minority, who don't integrate with the host nation, can break away from that nation if they become a majority in a region of that nation.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Kaiser Date: 05-10-2007, 19:51	I remember I created this topoic in summer. Badger said it was stupid. So I'm surprised not to see badger's lashing now...

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: ignjat63 Date: 05-10-2007, 20:26	"I remember I created this topoic in summer. Badger said it was stupid. So I'm surprised not to see badger's lashing now..." He was right. And as an inteligent human being, perhaps he thought saying it once was enough.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 05-10-2007, 20:59
Edited by: badgerboy
at: 05-10-2007, 21:01

This time I got into the "politics" and wider issues a bit - although this isn't the place. I'm easily led.

But I find all the topics - "will Gibraltar, Isle of Man, Kosovo, Sealand etc" join UEFA fairly stupid until they're actually happening.

And in footballing terms the answer is always the same anyway. What if...? Nothing. Absolutely shag all - except some more pointless qualifying games for some teams and for national teams countries in qualifying rounds for the World Cup etc.

An interesting question might be: Is there any piece of the world - or at least in Europe - that is not yet independent and might ever be that could make a significant impact in footballing terms if it ever was?

Some big Russian Republic maybe in the remote chance they were ever allowed to get away with it?

Otherwise it's just more numbers and the excitement of a qualifying round win every ten years if they are lucky.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: moro Date: 05-10-2007, 21:08	Bboy, you must have a hard time now, you find many topics stupid, childish, etc and you decide sometime when the time has come to stop a discussion. Hope you're OK.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: moro Date: 05-10-2007, 21:11	I dont know why Kosovo or Gibraltar would not join Uefa, if San Marino or Andorra did, well.... People who are interrested by this country (is this a country?) are intitled to discuss it. Rather then listening Gourou's conclusions after each round.

Author: Rohan
Date: 06-10-2007, 00:55

IMPORTANT "sport facts" on Kosovo, for their fans....

1. Kosovo is center of Serbian religion, Serb cradle, and root, and it will remain even that USA & UK narco - politicians decide opposite.After communist 1945 came on power, Tito forbiden return of some 250 000 Serbs refugees to Kosovo, who scaped to central Serbia from terrror of Albanian Hitler allies, called Balisti militia. Even in period 1945-1960, Serbs were mayority on Kosovo, but with strong birth rate and friendhip between communist party of Yugoslavia and Albania, thousans of Albanians from Albania fled into Kosovo. Started first terrorits actions and attacks on Serbs population, organized by kosovo -albanian communists, under which pressure Serbs starded to move into north of Serbia. Supported by communists party of Slovenia and Croatia, Tito, as Croat, divide Serbia into 3 parts - Kosovo, Serbia, and Vojvodina, by state law 1974.At that time in Kosovo wehere equality between albanian and serb population. Terror of Comunist party of Kosova is camouflaged and covered in communist media.(in world also).Serb communist, who dissagree with this where executed by Yogoslav secret service,(mainly Croat-Slovenian) controled by CIA, in 1965-1989.After Tito died, Slovenian and Croat communist party openly supported irredenta (secessionist) of Kosovo, at the 8th Komunist Party Congress. It provoked the rise of Miloshevic who went personally to Kosovo in order to prevent violence over Serbs ther, but western media and secessionist from Slovenia and Croatia saw in that the sparcle of future war.

2. The project of independent Kosovo started with constitutional law in 1974, when Albanian Kosovo communists got a province of Kosovo, after that they started to banished and harassed Serbs requesting Kosovo republic with the right to self-determination and union with Albania. In 1998 Miloshevic agree with UN to establish monitoring mission to Kosovo, in order that clear and exact informations be accessable to security council, but USA sent Wiliam Walker as head of the mission, CIA person with resume from sout America. Togheter with ANA fighters he prepared scenario of "Racak massacre of inocent".(supported by CNN, SKY, and BBC media) Based on such story, Serbia was forced to allow NATO forces to be deployed in all Serbia and Kosovo, which Miloshevic refuised during peace talks in France (Rambuiet).This refusal brought bombing campaign of NATO against Serbia 1999.

3. Since arrival of NATO forces to Kosovo, after bombing of Serbia in 1999, Albanian �democratic� government, under UN mission-UNMIK, killed more than 2800 Serb civilians, destroyed hundreds of villages, churches and monasteries, except in northern Kosovo where is the Serbs are mayority.

4. After 7 years since rule of Kosovo, international community tighter with Albanian para- state of Kosovo refuse any substantial return or integrations of 285 000 of expelled Kosovo Serbs and other non Albanian population of Kosovo.

5. Today�s Albanian Kosovo is center of narcotic mafia of Europe, with year income of more than 11 billions of USD, which they carefully used to create Great Albanian State, that includes Kosovo, 1/2 of Macedonia and 1/2 Montenegro, and part of North Greece.

6. Kosovo narcotic mafia have strong financial impact on elections of many politicians in USA, UK and EU, with final aim of creation of great Albania, but also personnel of NATO, OSCE, EC, UN and other�s. It also includes various public relations companies which create a public opinion among the world media.(sistematic repeat the sentence in media that Serb=Russian, including Hollywood production of anti-serb propaganda movies with most famous actors, demonized the Serbs and create US already created BONDSTEEL base near Uroshevac in order to supprot plans of narco-kartel.

7. Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) and Albanian National Army (ANA) are on the list of terrorist organizations. Despite of that CIA transferring them into future Kosovo Army, and supply them with trainers and weapons. ( Like Osama�s Taliban�s in Afghanistan against Russians)

8. Even that that USA, UK and some EU politicians that strongly corrupted by Albanian narco-mafia declare Kosovo as dependent, even for 1000 years under Albania it will be Serb territory again.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Kaiser Date: 06-10-2007, 01:40	moro wrote: Bboy, you must have a hard time now, you find many topics stupid, childish, etc and you decide sometime when the time has come to stop a discussion. Especially mine

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Krys Date: 06-10-2007, 01:51 Edited by: Krys at: 06-10-2007, 01:58	About 5-7. I also heard about that.. from a former secret service man.. Can u say which part of Montenegro is under Albanian control? Opstina Ulcinj or even norther?

Author: Rohan
Date: 06-10-2007, 12:17

Albanians in Montenegro have majority in wide strip with the border between Montenegro and Albania, municipalities of Ulicinj (on the coast), Tuzi (part of Podgorica capitol),Gusinje, Plav and Rozaje on the north...Also, some informations says that narco mafia use russian citizens to secretly buy real estate on entire Montengero coast for much higher price then real.(if real value is 40 000e, they offer 120 000e, similar like on Kosovo).

The M.Government (seccessionist) is already corrumpted with same money...The representative of EU who lead negotations on secession of Montenegro from Serbia, Miroslav Laicak, is awarded with position of High Representative OHR in Bosnia, with main aim to liquidate Serb entity in Bosnia, Republic Serbland.
It is indicative, from Blacan tragedy, that some representative of "int.community" personel is circulate from all the times in different roles,serving to some secret interest, probably as members of certain (half)misterious organizations, sponzored by mafia, and leaded by some religious-political interests.(Kai Eide, Karl Bilt, Marti Arthisari, Havier Solana...too long listing.)

Author: cska
Date: 06-10-2007, 13:56

@rohan and krys
You are quite willing to see "conspiracy" theories in everything that does not suit to your beliefs and thoughts.
Of course, those are only the Albanians and the Slovene-Croat secret service (ha-ha, as if the capital was not in Belgrade and Yugoslavia was not dominated by Serbia) the people who lead to the bad things in Kosovo.
Of course, JuNA (the Yugoslav People's Army) did not start the war in Slovenia, of course they did not attack Vukovar and Dubrovnik in Croatia, of course the Serbians have nothing to do with artillery bombing of Sarajevo in Bosnia, of course Serbian soldiers and para-military formations never destroyed or burned houses and never killed peaceful peasants in Kosovo.
Come on, come back to Earth.
After World War I Serbia was on the high tide supported by its Entente allies. When Austria-Hungary was dissolved, Serbia used its good position and influence as a winner in the war and took control over Slovenia and Croatia, forming a Serbian dominated federation despite the struggles of Slovenes and Croats against it. As a Bulgarian, I am not going to talk about the de-bulgarization of Macedonia at all. Actually, for many years the lands of Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia were disputed between Austria and Serbia. Austria took them in 1878 after the Russian-Turkish war (which also lead to independence of Bulgaria). WW1 broke out, because Serbian nationalist killed the Austrian emperor in Sarajevo. Austrians always tried to shift Serbia to look eastwards to Bulgaria and Greece instead of Bosnia and incited Serbia to attack Bulgaria in 1885 (a war that Bulgaria won).
So, there were times when the situation was in your disfavor and times when situation was in your favor.
However, ignjat63 was absolutely right - the two dominant and interchanging political lines in Serbia (Yugoslavia) were nationalism and communism. And nationalism brought you to nowhere.
You went into a dead end street. And you crashed into the wall.
When Serbia dominated Yugoslavia, everything looked OK for you. Once the Slovenes, the Croats, the Bosniaks, the Albanians, the "Macedonians" and even the Montenegrin Serbians decided that they don't want to live with you, you started to search for international conspiracies.
Of course, it's a shame that countries disintegrate and break into parts when the whole Europe is striving for unification, but this is a very typical local peculiarity.
The local Balkan psychology of people was the reason that communism fell after USSR lost its power. Unlike Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Poland, there has never been anti-communist uprising on the Balkans (only in Romania, in 1989, but then it was already clear that communism was degrading, and it was much more a hatred against a harsh dictator rather than anti-communist uprising).
This is reality. We, the Balkan people always blame referrees or UEFA for conspiracies when our teams lose. We blame NATO or EU when we are losing ground economically.
And yes, the problem on the Balkans has always been like the tale of the two dogs - one who had everything to eat, but was beaten when barking, and the other who had nothing to eat, but could bark freely. Just compare the two dogs and the times of communism and after-communism. In theory, everybody wants "democracy". But when you ask people will they exchange their well-being for democracy, they don't like it. People always want to preserve well-being and add "democracy" as an extra over it. But if they are asked to exchange one good thing for another one, they hesitate. Nobody wants freedom of speech when he will be starving.
Enough about politics.
Conspiracy or not - now Serbs are on the low tide. And like it or not, but the processes in Kosovo seem irreversible.
There is one thing Rohan was right - Albanians had incredible birthrate in Kosovo. 20 years ago they said "so pushka ne mozeme da gi bieme, ali so kurac ce gi bieme" (we can't beat the Serbs with rifles, but we can beat them with our dicks). And they created children, while Serbs did not so many. Also, a big fault is with Serbs that when a Serb woman married to ASlbanian, the children were raised mainly in Albanian traditions. This added to Albanian ethnic group and subtracted from Serbian. But there is no "world conspiracy" behind that. You, the Serbs, must have seen it early enough and you must have acted to prevent the bad consequences. You did not do it.
Now, it's a bit late. But Kosovo will not join UEFA, because it will not become an independent country either Russia will block it, or the radicals may become extreme enough to unify with Albania.

Author: Krys
Date: 06-10-2007, 14:12
Edited by: Krys
at: 06-10-2007, 14:37

"Albanians in Montenegro have majority in wide strip with the border between Montenegro and Albania, municipalities of Ulicinj (on the coast), Tuzi (part of Podgorica capitol),Gusinje, Plav and Rozaje on the north...Also, some informations says that narco mafia use russian citizens to secretly buy real estate on entire Montengero coast for much higher price then real.(if real value is 40 000e, they offer 120 000e, similar like on Kosovo)."

I've heard abou new law that a foreigner can't buy a land in CG (even with a house) Were these narcomafia tricks a reason for that?
BTW what do u think about Dobra Voda (opstina Bar)
Can there occur Albanian majority in the future?
Is it a safe place or it can be another Kosovo?

PS Most of Russian buy kuca's for themselves in this price segment..
it is very fashionable now. Every Real estate agency(that respect itself) has special agent (or even not 1) for Montenegro property.
In Moscow there are officially 15m really 20m. No sea. It's boring to go to Turkey. Whay not to buy near the sea and also invest money.
In MOS minimum price is about 2.5-3k EUR per sq.m and for a good apart is about 5-6k. So why not to buy for 1.5-2k (like it was 1-2 years ago)
When the object is worth several millions - than there can be some dummies. that is anjther story that I actually don't know..

Author: Krys
Date: 06-10-2007, 14:26
Edited by: Krys
at: 06-10-2007, 15:12

@cska
we are from different countries but I also heard about that.
Not from media or from semi-fantastic books but from one wise person.. Western propaganda is even more serious and dangerous than Soviet was. The difference is that nobody believed Soviet because it was stupid but many people believe in West. Till now.. (i don't mean u here)
So therefore it's hard to believe in Rohan said...
One example.
If you ask any American who won Woorld War II most would answer - USA
The most advanced - US and England (some can add France...

)
This is not wrong but very small part of truth...
But if you ask them who captured the capital of fascist state - they logically would decide that it was USA (logic: if we win so we captured)...
If you object they (most - common people not students of history faculties) wouldn't believe you..
That doesn't mean they are stupid or arrogant.. that shows how media changes minds.. they were programmed to say like this.. it's only a simple example.. with a strong historical fact..
And what if situation is more complicated - it's even easier..

PS "of course Serbian soldiers and para-military formations never destroyed or burned houses and never killed peaceful peasants in Kosovo."
They are peaceful peasants in the afternoon and albanian terrorista in the night. Do you really think that it is written on the face of the terrorist that he is a terrorist.. BTW you will never know for sure who killed who there..

Author: cska
Date: 06-10-2007, 14:56

Exactly, Krys, exactly. You can never be sure who killed whom.
But the cure of the problem was not to kill entire villages, because the soldiers did not know who were peasants and who were terrorists.
By the way, terrorism is quite erratic and desperate method to fight for freedom. Result in most cases is hatred and tragedies.
However, it is even more dangerous when a military force which is supposed to keep order is killing peaceful people just like terrorists do. In this way, the cruel soldiers also become terrorists. A state supported terrorism is not different from a state opposed terrorism - they both are bad enough.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Krys Date: 06-10-2007, 15:15	@cska but the state opposed the terrorism would not oppose if the other side didn't support.. i think who starts this is more guilty..

Author: cska
Date: 06-10-2007, 15:50

Krys
The phrase "who started this is more guilty" reminds me of the proverb that "violence creates violence".
Yes, normally one side starts something. But if the other side responds in the same barbaric way, what makes it different from the other one. If they both kill, the one who committed violence to avenge violence is not "less guilty". Violence in itself is never a solution to anything, it is only the best way to generate hatred.
Remember, WW2 started because of the treaties after WW1, which justified the harsh conditions for the losing countries by accusing them that they are "guilty" for the start of the war. Historically, that was not quite true. And the defeated countries seeked their revenge.
Normally, the winner always declares that the loser is "guilty" for the war. But in history, wars were often started by the winners. Victory cannot justify violence. The Latin phrase: "nobody judges the victors" is true in life, but it does not mean that it is fair.
And, by the way, if Slovenia, Croatia and Bosna were allowed to peacefully become independent, without JNA attacking them, then the "trend" of secession would not have reached Kosovo and Montenegro. Albanian terrorists deserve no mercy. But what about the Serbian war criminals? And are all Albanians terrorists???
Are Albanians guilty only because they had a high birthrate while Serbians didn't??? Are Albanians to be blamed that they are 90% of Kosovo population? Many of the Serbian inhabitants left Kosovo in 1980s, long before the present crisis. If they chose to leave, why do you think that any Serb will be willing to live in a 90% Albanian community? Can you expell all Albanians to Albania to secure the Serbian future of Kosovo? Obviously, you can't.

Author: Krys
Date: 06-10-2007, 17:35
Edited by: Krys
at: 06-10-2007, 17:36

WW2 started of many reasons..One is that u talked about..
But WW1 was started by Austria-Hungary. And that is historical fact..
Yes both sides understood that there would be war. But nevertheless..
And WW2 started by Germany..
But I agree that if they hadn't started another side would have been started. And the winner is always right..
About Slovenia, Bosnia, Croatia... Well there was great external influence on that. After USSR lost control the situation lost its stability. And Yu was "much assisted" to disintegrate
There was ONE REALLY independent country with economy and level of live that people were envy (in good sense) from both East or West.
The country could support its interest everywhere.. Even Stalin couldn't control it.
And now everyone is a small poland.. Who was dependent from smb all the times.. No production, no science, no army, no international prestige, no money, nobody is listening to them in the world. Only servants for english, german, russians who came there..
There was some ethnic problems but i am sure that they were many provocations outside to make fire at Balkans. If not - there would be no war.. There were many serbo-croation families for 40 years.. and not only because of that..
About Albania - of course not..BUT the main thing. The western media I saw describe all Albanians like innocent babies and serbian like gangsters.. It is not the way u say that both sides are guilty.
Anyway I am not from Balkans I don't think that I know this very well. That's some of me thoughts about this.

Author: Rohan
Date: 06-10-2007, 20:16
Edited by: Rohan
at: 07-10-2007, 00:44

Reply to CSKA post�.
Considering that he shows some kind of great �bulgarian view on facts on former Yugoslava, not based on facts or documents, but only how Bulgarian officials, now NATO allies, see it and present to its nation�.

�Of course, those are only the Albanians and the Slovene-Croat secret service (ha-ha, as if the capital was not in Belgrade and Yugoslavia was not dominated by Serbia) the people who lead to the bad things in Kosovo.�
1. Belgrade is multiethnic capitol of former YU, and of course, during all war time all of them stayed with Serbs during that war conflict,(example:Tudjman, creator of Croatia, was Tito's general of JNA, and president of FC Partizan), many of them openly criticized Milosevic, and Serbs, at the center of Belgrade, then and now as well, as part pro western NGO�s, whit incomes from foreign sources.(example:Soros fondation).Statistic on population of former YU is avialable on google to anybody.

�Of course, JNA (the Yugoslav People's Army) did not start the war in Slovenia, of course they did not attack Vukovar and Dubrovnik in Croatia, of course the Serbians have nothing to do with artillery bombing of Sarajevo in Bosnia, of course Serbian soldiers and para-military formations never destroyed or burned houses and never killed peaceful peasants in Kosovo.�

2. JNA was the Yugoslav army, in the country which collapse, ruined from inside with assistance from the west. Their barracks where in each bigger town in Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia , Macedonia, it was multiethnic army. But apart from that, all barracks were attacked and garnizons blocked in 1991,in few days, on secessionist territories, without food, water, and power. That started the war in Vukovar, Dubrovnik, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia�Only in Tuzla,1991, the JNA convoy was attacked in center of town during withdraw, all solders (Serbs, Macedonian, Montenegrin�) were burned. No investigation ever.... In 1991, to defend their ethnical territories from Moslem and Croat secessionist militias, that was created earlier in Zagreb( to see a movie from Dinamo stadium Cro militia parade 1991), Serbs from Croatia and Bosnia created their own militias, in Krajina and Bosnia, taking the weapon from JNA during withdraws, or simply, taking it from territorial defense system. Their fear from repeat of 1941 was reasonable, because Croatia "democrats" use same symbols and ideas like 1941, with support of Austria, Germany (Gensher-Mock).Parallel with seccessions they wanted to clean Serbs from Croatia and they finally succeded in 1995 in Operation Storm, with NATO bobming campain of Serb Krajina (see Operation Storm at google, role of NATO, US)."Peacefull peasants" (Kosovo Liberation Army-KLA) in their "villages" (KLA camps) where alaso explained in CIA documents (google,Kosovo, Noam Chomsky).

�After World War I Serbia was on the high tide supported by its Entente allies. When Austria-Hungary was dissolved, Serbia used its good position and influence as a winner in the war and took control over Slovenia and Croatia, forming a Serbian dominated federation despite the struggles of Slovenes and Croats against it. As a Bulgarian, I am not going to talk about the de-bulgarization of Macedonia at all. Actually, for many years the lands of Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia were disputed between Austria and Serbia. Austria took them in 1878 after the Russian-Turkish war (which also lead to independence of Bulgaria). WW1 broke out, because Serbian nationalist killed the Austrian emperor in Sarajevo. Austrians always tried to shift Serbia to look eastwards to Bulgaria and Greece instead of Bosnia and incited Serbia to attack Bulgaria in 1885 (a war that Bulgaria won).�
3. Serbia was ALWAYS on right side, not only then, as difference from Bulgaria.At Berlin Congerss 1878 Bosnia, after withdraw of Turkey, despite as that time ethnically dominant Serb land, was allocated to Austro-Hungary. Serb army in WW 1 liberated Slovenia and Croatia, even entered to Adriatic coast in Drach (Albania) but West Alliance forced Serbia to step back. Slovenians and Croats welcomed Serb army, and based to their will Yugoslavia is created instead of Serb ethnical state, with all Serbian lands where Serbs where majority. In 1918 there where no Macedonian, Montenegrin and Moslem nation in Bosnia, it was product of Tito communists. During WW2 Croatian Nazi killed more than million of Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia, and never punished for that crimes 1945. Trough the Vatican �rat channels� they escaped to South America. The EU Badinter Commission decided on 1991 that communist republic borders are state borders secessionist countries. In 1991, 40% of Serb population stayed outside of Serbia, and in Croatia and Bosnia they lost the status of constitutional nation. 18% of Croatia and 67% of Bosnia was Serb majority land. Nationalist from both republics wanted their clear ethnical countries. The only multiethnic territory that remained the same after the wars in 1991 was Serbia.(1, 2 00 000 of Serb refugees fled into Serbia from Croatia and Bosnia in 1995). Threes no local psychology, as great Bulgarian ideologist want to say, there are only financial, political, media and finally in 1999 even army aggression to Serbia, in order to cut the country on pieces and smallest possible measure. The Nato planes came from Bulgaria, as well.

4. Vatican created artificial border which divides eastern and western christians (since established in 11th century)exactly on Drina river, between Bosnia and Serbia, and that border divides Serbs ethnical space, Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia, from Serbia.

5. Today in Serbia is on power pro-western Government, but even they realised that NATO bombing campain 1999 was not directed agaisnt Miloshevic rule, but only to assist to Kosovo secession.And media campain agaist Serbia increasing again. (example: Kosovo albanian TV showed its own Liberation Army, camouflaged and armed, in the night at some local roads few days ago.Serbian President Tadic indciate this as threat to security of remained Serbs on Kosovo province, but on same day Assoisated Press-AP started story on Serb paramilitary unites that are threat to Kosovo).Practically, story in western media is same - Serbia is ortodox Russia of Balcan, it should be minimized or even dissapear.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Krys Date: 07-10-2007, 07:38	@Rohas 3. Serbia was ALWAYS on right side, not only then, as difference from Bulgaria.At Berlin Congerss 1878 Bosnia, after withdraw of Turkey, despite as that time ethnically dominant Serb land, was allocated to Austro-Hungary. That was a secret Austria-Russian pact that allowed A-H to occupy Bosnia. That was the price for A-H being neutral in Russian-Turkish war.

Author: Rohan
Date: 07-10-2007, 14:47
Edited by: Rohan
at: 07-10-2007, 15:39

Very possible, even 1991 they repeat the same under Jelcin administration, in destruction of UN protected Republic Serb Krajina 1991-1995 (remain silent), division of Bosnia 51-49% between Croat Moslem Federation and Rep. Serbland (despite Serbs very ethnic majority on 67% of Bosnia), and in Artishari-Chernomirdin pact on Kosovo 1999, that alows NATO to enter in southern Serb province.When argue about U-EU policy in Balcan, we always need to use the facts. Sometimes the pics says more, for those who want the true

Ethnic maps of former Yugoslavia
Ethnic map of Western Serb lands in Croatia and Bosnia, before the war 1991

Ethnic maps of Bosnia 2006

Author: Krys
Date: 07-10-2007, 15:14
Edited by: Krys
at: 07-10-2007, 15:23

Yeltsin is another story.. He was not a real governor and it happened many awful things like that one.. Both inside Russia and outside..Even Chechen problem was not decided.. (I do not support Stalin but he did it in 2 days by the forces of one division

) Now the authorities are a little bit stronger.. But only a little bit. Many things are lost and no will to improve the other one.. Still Russia has veto but nothing else.

About 1878 that was necessary because Russia might have not coped with Turkey plus Austria. It would take huge resources with a doubtful chance to success.
Alexander II remembered what happened during Crimean War..
If there were no great English influence on foreign affairs Russia could have captured Istanbul. And Berlin congress also proved that influence.
About pact - it is written in all our history books. I think it's true - no reason to lie..

PS U didn't answer my question before? U don't know?

Author: Rohan
Date: 07-10-2007, 16:13

In our hisotry books its writen that great forces of that time allowed Austro-Hingarian to capture Bosnia, but I agree it was some kind of calculation, as u mentioned. If u asked for that. In 17-18th todays Albania,especialy on the towns on the northern coast of Albania, but Berlin Congress 1878, with demands of Italy, created Abania after Turkey left. Also, Italy urges Serbs army to withdraw from the Adriatic coast of Albania 1918, despite Albania guerila massacred Serbian army during withdraw to Greece 1914...it was very, extreemly important to push Serbia from the coast, as it is now. If u are a tourist in Croatia, on Dalmatian coast, just behind Zadar, and Sibenik, u can find dozens of Serb destroyed villages, empty and burned after 1995...I think this is the background of YU collapse 1991. Geopoitical interstes of Vatikan and USA made strong alliance for this plan, during earlier meetings between US presidents and pope Woytila. Also, the leaders of CIA strategic policy where two Polish, Janus Bugajski, and Zbigniew Brzezinski(google). It is interesting facts to understand how for this plan existed

1. After WW2 Croatian nazi didnt punished for extermination of Serbs 1941-45, more than million Serbs killed, only 600-700 000 in conc.kamp Jasenovac (google), even UN estimated this as genocide, but Tito (Croat) communists fully forbiden this story in new yugoslavia after WW2.
2. Firt communist leader who visited Vatican was Tito (google)
3. When Tito created new republic borders in Yugoslavia, he allocated all coast to Croatia, small part to Montenegro and minimal to Slovenia, Bosnia. Those borders where no ethnic, divided Serbs into many new countries.1991 Badinter Arbitration Committee (google)confirmed them as state borders. First countries who recognized Croatia was Vatican , Germany and Austria, later on all EU.
4. Croatia secessionist where alowed former WW2 nazi to return top croatia 1991 to finish extermination of Serbs, who decided to defentd their homes in Krajina. (see Simon Wiesenthal Center on google).Attcaks on Serb statrted parallel with attacs on YU army-JNA.
5. US stronly support Croatian militia, with weapone and instructors, even bombed Krajina (UN protected) radio instalations in 1995.(google). Krajina collapsed and 300 000 remained Serbs fled to Serbia. All thier property destoyed (google). Serbs outside of Krajina, in Croatian towns, scaped from Croat terror even 1991-92, some 150 000.In 1995 Croatia was cleaned country. Now, such cleaned entering to NATO and EU, despite many obstacle to return of Serbs.

Author: Krys
Date: 07-10-2007, 16:53

Rohan, i meant this question..

"Albanians in Montenegro have majority in wide strip with the border between Montenegro and Albania, municipalities of Ulicinj (on the coast), Tuzi (part of Podgorica capitol),Gusinje, Plav and Rozaje on the north...Also, some informations says that narco mafia use russian citizens to secretly buy real estate on entire Montengero coast for much higher price then real.(if real value is 40 000e, they offer 120 000e, similar like on Kosovo)."

I've heard abou new law that a foreigner can't buy a land in CG (even with a house) Were these narcomafia tricks a reason for that?
BTW what do u think about Dobra Voda (opstina Bar)
Can there occur Albanian majority in the future?
Is it a safe place or it can be another Kosovo?

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Rohan Date: 07-10-2007, 20:02	Bar municipality is next to Ulcinj, in town of Bar exist dominant slavs-moslem community (non-albanian). If any of montenegrin here, could explain better. Northern part of montenegro coast is more safe then southern.but generally, future of that state is not stabile.(30%serbs, 30%montenegrian and 30% of moslems, among total population of some 550 000...

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Krys Date: 07-10-2007, 20:43	Rohan, thanks. Could you be pleased to answer one more.. What changed in relations between each other after separation(political relation, economic and common people's).. I mean Serbia & CG of course.

Author: Rohan
Date: 08-10-2007, 01:13

The separation was realized on referendum with 51,2% of votes, whit bless of Solana, EU, and negotiators of EU Miroslav Laicak from Slovakia (now the head of Bosnia). According to international law, the secession result need to be 2/3 of the number of total voters, which means 65%, but for Montenegro, EU made an exception. The silent bless came also from pro western government in Serbia, despite protests of patriotic opposition in both republics. In Serbian media is artificially created picture that is better to separate from them, especially of western controlled media. This is happening now with Kosovo situation. Montenegrin who lived or worked in Serbia was not allowed to vote.
Historically, Montenegro was Sparta of Serbia, center of Serb idea, heroism and poetry, the same destiny has been shared with Serbia for centuries. But 50 year of Tito communist rule, including corrupted politician and strong anti Serb impact from the West, came to this situation. Seems that in Montenegro started strong process of de-serebization from side of secessionists, trough the media and in common live, Montenegrin tribes are strongly divided among supporters of independence and those who remain to declare themselves as Serbs, mainly on bigger part of the country (northern region of the hills). The main aim is Serb Orthodox Church, which was since beginning the church of Montenegrin nation, but now they want to create new, Montenegrin Orthodox Church, like Macedonians done, by secession from Serb Orthodox Church. Incidents happen on regular base.
I would say that situation is more similar like Russia and Ukraine, on many fields.

Author: cska
Date: 08-10-2007, 12:52

@Krys and mainly @Rohan
First, about the sentence you wrote that Albania was created after Berlin Congress 1878. It was created after London peace treaty 1913 (after Balkan War I).
Second, about Bosnia 1878. Yes, Serbs were unhappy, but Bulgaria was the major loser, having 2/3rds of its land given back to Ottoman empire. Also, a big mistake of Russia was that to compensate Serbia for the loss of Bosnia they and Austria hinted the Serbs to look east of Morava river and south to Macedonia. Serbia received at the Berlin Congress some lands that were included in another country after San Stefano treaty 1878 (guess which country). Thus, instead of friendly neighbours, Serbia and Bulgaria were enemies quite often.
However, I can understand the Austrian point of view. If a major power wants to retain its authority and to realise its aspirations, it must keep all the minor countries quarreling and not united. Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece could have been a major power together, but they were kept constantly quarreling and seeking the "protection" of different major powers.
Anyway, that's history.
Now, about what you wrote about the present situation.
Sorry, Rohan, but what you wrote about Vatican or USA only contributes to the perception that the Serbians see "world conspiracy" in every war they lose, just like Romanians see "UEFA conspiracy" each time when the "all-mighty" Steaua or Dinamo lose in Europe.
You can probably present the things in this way to a distant American or a West European person. But I am living 50 km from Serbia, in Sofia. My mother is from a border town to Serbia, my father is from border town to Serbia and Romania. My uncle is from the present-day "Macedonia". So, don't "sell cucumbers to the green-grocer". You can try to present Serbs as innocent victims of world state "terrorism" by NATO, but truth isnever 100% at one of the sides.
And, by the way, not all the Croats and Slovenes wanted to join Yugoslavia. they wanted independence like Czechs, Slovaks and Polaks. But Serbia insisted to dominate in West Balkans. The kills of many Croat patriots during the formation of Yugoslavia was the reason why the Croat Ustasi fascists were so keen supporters of Germany in 1941. They killed Serbs in retaliation. And this proves again that "violence only creates more violence". Serbs killing Croats, Croats killing Serbs, etc. Just killing 100 men in a village cannot bring back your dead relatives killed by the "enemy" nation. But I wonder how people can feel themselves happy when they kill other people only because they are of certain nationality.
By the way, you will not attract support and compassion from the world by accusing everybody having even the slightest doubt in you. There is some conspiracy, but Vatican, USA, now you'll probably write about Jewish bankers, Mason's Lodge, etc. Come on!
People in Bosna and Krajna still hate each other. How can you assure anyone that if Serbia takes back Kosovo, no Serbs will kill Albanians. And how you can be sure that Albanians in Kosovo will like you. Let's assume UN gives you Kosovo back. Albanians will uprise again. JNA (maybe now SNA) will fight again. Again many people will be killed and you will again blame "world conspiracy" for bombing Serbia. Come on! In 1998-99 I was a border soldier looking the missiles hitting the nearby Serbian towns. I participated later in the anti-NATO demonstrations. I hated the USA-dominated propaganda. Now, I still hate the Hitler-like George Bush and the Nazi-like American propaganda. However, I think that UN forces are necessary in Kosovo and Bosna. Maybe the war in 1999 was needed, otherwise even greater bloodshed would have occurred.
And even though USA0propaganda exists, you can't always blame propaganda for things that your own soldiers did.

By the way, isn't there any propaganda in Serbia at all???
Weren't all the minds of the people washed by Milosevic's regime?
Why do you criticize the world when you have the problem in your own country?
(Of course, there is also propaganda in my country. I just hope that I can guess what is propaganda and how to keep my mind away from it.)

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: nikola_belgrade Date: 08-10-2007, 14:16	Well, as i predicted, this topic is all about football...

Author: ea152
Date: 08-10-2007, 14:49

Nikola from Beograd is right. The whole topic has been turned into an endless series of historical "facts", seen from a Greek, Serbian, Bulgarian etc. perspective. Unfortunately, for our Serbian friends - I am Greek - it seems that the major powers have decided that Kosovo will become independent, as to their calculations it will form part of a corridor that will be used by the Americans for oil and gas pipelines and a highway from the Black Sea to the Adriatic Sea. So I think it will be done sooner or later, something that may open a way for other border changes in the so much suffered Balkans. As far as football is concerned, it seems that UEFA will have no problem to enter them as a member, so the whole story is one more club in CL and two more in the UEFA Cup.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: cosmin_ultrasteaua Date: 08-10-2007, 14:56	Guys, just stop. We (the Balkans) have become the Middle-East of Europe (sadly without the oil). We are still fighting about things that happened hundreds of years ago. If people in a region want independents they should have it. I would not oppose to see Transilvania as a free state IF the majority of people want it. Same thing for Moldova. Does it matter what happened in the past?

Author: cska
Date: 08-10-2007, 15:58

Cosmin,
I really have to acclaim what you said. Congrats! You are right.
It is not important what happened 100-500-2000 years ago if we discuss football. It is only important if we want to understand other people's point of view. Those historical facts and the results from them influenced a lot and still influence the psychology of entire nations today.
From the point of view of football, I don't see a problem of Litex visiting a club from Pristina instead of Besa Kavaje.
The problem will be whether such a poor region will be able to support football clubs playing in Europe.
Also, as long as there are terrorist problems and foreign peacemaking troops there, I think that UEFA will not allow home games to be played there.
So, formally Kosovo can be accepted if they gain independence. However, I'm not sure that football will be the first think they will care about...

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Sivivatu Date: 08-10-2007, 16:08 Edited by: Sivivatu at: 08-10-2007, 16:15	divide et impera @cosmin_ultrasteaua you have a communist mentality Russia, Romania, France, Spain etc and many terrorist organisations like Eta don't agree with the independence of Kosovo !!! USA wants only to start another war in Europe, this is their purpuse ...

Author: cosmin_ultrasteaua
Date: 08-10-2007, 16:23

From a historical point of view it�s hard to say witch land belongs to witch country in the Balkans. This is because this land was fought by 3 empires. Austrian � Hungarian, Ottoman and Russian. They conquered land and that created the ethnic movement here. There where no Hungarians in Transilvania before they conquered it, now there are a lot. Some thing with Moldova and Russians. I suspect the same thing happened in Kosovo (and other regions). I think the best way is to let the people there decide what they want to do. It�s not the UN or NATO or anyone else business to intervene.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: cosmin_ultrasteaua Date: 08-10-2007, 16:27	Sivivatu, you have no idea what communism means. And my post was far from it. It�s a communist idea to force people to by part of a country they don�t want.

Author: Sivivatu
Date: 08-10-2007, 16:33
Edited by: Sivivatu
at: 08-10-2007, 16:47

Here I agree with you, It�s not the UN or NATO or anyone else business to intervene, the why you agree with USA point of view? and I don't understand what Transilvania has to do with Kosovo ? in Transilvania were always a majority of romanians .

Before the Trianon in the "Great Hungary" were 20.9 milion people of wich 7.5 were hungarians, this means 35 % of population....Romanians were 33 % and the rest were germans, slavs and jews

And Now in Transilvania are living over 6 milions of romanians and about 1,3 milion hungarians.....

The borders should be drawn by historical facts and maps, we can't modify the borders like we change our sockets.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: cosmin_ultrasteaua Date: 08-10-2007, 16:42	Here I agree with you, It�s not the UN or NATO or anyone else business to intervene but then I don't understand what Transilvania has to do with Kosovo ? in Transilvania were always a majority of romanians . ---- Just an exemple of how the enthincs in a region have changed in time.

Author: Sivivatu
Date: 08-10-2007, 16:53
Edited by: Sivivatu
at: 08-10-2007, 17:21

@Just an exemple of how the enthincs in a region have changed in time.

what do you mean by this? As I said before, romanians were ALWAYS a majority in Transilvania

The town names, rivers names etc in Transilvania have a Latin origin, being maghiarised later ...

as Arthur Koestler said:" To be a Hungarian is a colective neurosis".

The majority of "hungarian" legendary heroes...heroes from the battles with turks, revelutionares, science people, writers, etc. are totally or partially of german, slav, jew or romanian origin

I don't agree with your statement, if some emmigrants settle in another country region and become majority, should they also require independece?

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Krys Date: 08-10-2007, 16:57	@Sivivatu. France supports independence of Kosovo. I don't know about Spain and Romania but their position is not important at all.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Sivivatu Date: 08-10-2007, 17:06 Edited by: Sivivatu at: 08-10-2007, 17:15	Sorry I was wrong about France...yeah maybe the points of view of Slovakia, Romania, Greece, Cyprus, Spain, Italy etc may not be so important but the position of Russia and China surely are

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Krys Date: 08-10-2007, 17:10	But Russia is the only one.. with no influence on Kosovo.. only veto at UN no more..

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Sivivatu Date: 08-10-2007, 17:15 Edited by: Sivivatu at: 08-10-2007, 17:15	and China ...

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Krys Date: 08-10-2007, 17:19	May be..

Author: Rohan
Date: 08-10-2007, 17:54

to CSKA, batko...

"By the way, isn't there any propaganda in Serbia at all???
Weren't all the minds of the people washed by Milosevic's regime?
Why do you criticize the world when you have the problem in your own country?"

Im talking about facts, what happens and what will happen based on experience in last decades, im not poisoned with any kind of great Serbian ideas, mentality, or propaganda, as i see your great Bulgarian attitudes exists.It is simmply called the devlish pact with all minor on insignificants who ally against Serbia (Greece and Romania will come later...), the trinagle of Albania, Croatia and Bulgaria, who now see their times and chance for final destruction...

Im no poluted with propaganda, my village in Croatia is burned, my pepole killed in that attack, suvivers are in refugees camps in Serbia, ruins of villages are in deep grass and right-wing tourists who visit Croatia passineg with thier cars near by....Same village is destoyed in 1941, my parents somehow survive as kids, but many didnt. Catholic priests participated in killing....no sanctioned after 1945....Medak PocketAfter millenium of existance on that land , now no one Serb living there, just because of THEY decided so, with no right on self determination that is given to Albanian, Croats, Moslems...On 1999, when u enjoyed in view on bombing of Serbia from your NATO -nazzi protected bulgarian hill, some of refugee camps with my people where shooted by nazzi tomahawks...killed for second time.
We dont need assistance from anybody, we follows the ways of God and justice, as always we do...
Sory, other topics are football, just skeep this one....

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: dinamozagreb Date: 08-10-2007, 19:00	Oh, you poor poor Serbs...

Author: Rohan
Date: 08-10-2007, 23:17
Edited by: Rohan
at: 08-10-2007, 23:47

Welcome to the club, Dinamo...

From the US Army File on Ante Pavelic 's (Croat Nazi leader) stay in Vatikan after collapse of NDH (Independent Croatian State 1941-1945)
Title: CIC Information Sheet
Source: US Army, declassified.
Date: c. July 1947

CIC Information Sheet

From the US Army File on Ante Pavelic: This document confirms the information given in Agent William Gowen's previous report, right down to the room number. This appears to have been prepared in final preparation for enforcing an arrest on Pavelic, on Vatican property if need be. The list of "other Ustasha personalities" is only a handful of the high-ranking officials who would escape from justice, contrary to claims made elsewhere that only Pavelic and one or two other Ustase escaped justice after the war. Within the next 18 months, nearly the entire cabinet of the Independent State of Croatia will have relocated to Buenos Aires.

COPY
TRANSLATION

Subject: Ante PAVELIC and other USTASHA personalities

1. Ante PAVELIC is in hiding as an ex-HUNGARIAN General under the name of "Giuseppe". He wears a small pointed beard and has his hair cut short at the sides after the fashion of a German Army officer.

2. Hi [sic> is living on Church property under the protection of the Vatican, at Via Giacomo Venezian No. 17-C, second floor. On entering the building you go along a long and dark corridor. At the end of the corridor there are two stairways, one to the left and one to the right. You must take the right. On the right the rooms are numbered 1,2,3, etc. If you knock once or twice at door No. 3 an unimportant person will come out. But if you knock three times at door No. 3, door No. 2 will open. It leads to the room where PAVELIC lives, together with the famous BULGARIAN terrorist Vancia MIKOILOFF and two other persons.

3. About twelve other men live in the building. They are all Ustasha and make up PAVELIC's bodyguard.

4. When PAVELIC goes out he uses a car with a Vatican (SCV) number-plate.

5. The following persons visit the convent occasionally:

a) Ivica FRKOVIC, editor of the Ustasha Paper "Hrvatski Narod";
b) Dr. Feliks POLJANIC, Asst. chief of police SARAJEVO;
c) Ciro KUDUIA, Ustasha Colonel;
d) Dr. VIDALI, Asst. chief of the Ustasha-Croat Security Police;
e) Zvonko DUGANIC, Asst. chief of Croat Information Service (he lives in ROME, tel.N. 43302);
f) Peter SIMIC;
g) Dr. Lovro SUSIC, secretary of Ustasha movement in Italy. Travels frequently (ROME BOLOGNA, TRIESTE). At present living in CASERTA.
h) Joso ZUBIC, police commissioner of SARAJEVO;
i) Husnija HRUSTANOVIC, journalist;
j) Zdravko BJELOMARIC.

After Germany and its Axis allies invaded Yugoslavia in April 1941, the Nazis permitted the fascist and terrorist Usta�a organization to found the Independent State of Croatia. The Usta�a regime established numerous concentration camps in Croatia between 1941 and 1945. The largest was the Jasenovac complex. This Web site chronicles crimes committed during the Holocaust in Croatia and highlights artifacts from the Jasenovac Memorial Area Collection

Considering the repeat of historical tragedy in Croatia today, for sure ...pore, pore Serbs.

Author: dinamozagreb
Date: 09-10-2007, 02:22
Edited by: dinamozagreb
at: 09-10-2007, 02:22

You ethnically cleansed in 90-91 so called "Krajina" and are now crying the same thing as a consequence happened to you in 95?

1/3 of Croatia was occupied for 5 years; hundreds of bombs were falling year after year on our cities in Slavonia, Dalmatia and you are bitching about "Storm"? What did you expect would happen?

NATO bombed for few days your infrastructure with air guided missiles and you think that is disaster?

You sisses had almost all of JNA's weapons, local Serbs, Serbs from Serbia (weekend warriors) and you still had your asses kicked. We seized JNA weapons in Croatian cities and you think that was criminal? What we should have done. Let you take it to bomb us with it.

You were afraid in 90' that Ustase will rise from their graves and that's why you started to kill and massacre your neighbours? You were offered agreement Z4 and autonomy and did you take it? Of course not...your policy is : Where Serbs live there is Serbia.

You are talking about Medacki dzep when there are hundreds bestial massacres that you did. Did we have under siege for months/years cities like Vukovar, Sarajevo, Srebrenica, Dubrovnik and killed their citizens day after day? No, we defended our selves. And when we kicked your asses in Storm it was mayhem for few days. And you use it now for your discraceful attempt to equal the guilt when you harassed us for 5 years ?

You did (and failed in the end) in Croatia the same thing that Albanians are doing to you now and you are calling it a great injustice. How ironic. Serbia now is the state of irony and hypocrits. You are talking to the world now the same thing we were saying back in 90s. But no one takes a damn...

Author: Rohan
Date: 09-10-2007, 12:48
Edited by: Rohan
at: 09-10-2007, 12:52

Thanks for your reply, i c u put a lot of facts here...I belive that your picture of Croatia war is reflection of HRT (Cro TV) brain wash but slowly, day by day, true is comming on day light...u will c that mirror have two faces...

1."You ethnically cleansed in 90-91 so called "Krajina" and are now crying the same thing as a consequence happened to you in 95?
1/3 of Croatia was occupied for 5 years; hundreds of bombs were falling year after year on our cities in Slavonia, Dalmatia and you are bitching about "Storm"? What did you expect would happen?"
..........
The biggest ethnic cleaning during YU war is conducted in 1995, by expell of 300 000 Serbs from Krajina to Serbia. For hundred years they "occupied " your democratic land. After ethnic cleaning of towns in the rest of Croatia (250 000 Serbs, and those who decleared us Yugoslavs- like mixed marriages) with numerous crimes, with NATO and US role in operation Sotrm u destroyed Krajina.

2."NATO bombed for few days your infrastructure with air guided missiles and you think that is disaster?"
.......................
no comments...

3.You sisses had almost all of JNA's weapons, local Serbs, Serbs from Serbia (weekend warriors) and you still had your asses kicked. We seized JNA weapons in Croatian cities and you think that was criminal? What we should have done. Let you take it to bomb us with it. "You were afraid in 90' that Ustase will rise from their graves and that's why you started to kill and massacre your neighbours?"
...........
It is worth examining the nature of what one UN official terms "America's newest ally." During World War II, Croatia was a Nazi puppet state in which the Croatian fascist Ustashe murdered as many as one million Serbs, Jews, and Roman (Gypsies). Disturbing signs emerged with the election of Franjo Tudjman to the Croatian presidency in 1990 Tudjman said, "I am glad my wife is neither Serb nor Jew," and wrote that accounts of the Holocaust were "exaggerated" and "one-sided." (20)
Much of Tudjman's financial backing was provided by Ustashe �migr�s and several Ustashe war criminals were invited to attend the first convention of Tudjman's political party, the Croatian Democratic Union. (21)
Tudjman presented a medal to a former Ustashe commander living in Argentina, Ivo Rojnica. After Rojnica was quoted as saying, "Everything I did in 1941 I would do again," international pressure prevented Tudjman from appointing him to the post of ambassador to Argentina. When former Ustashe official Vinko Nikolic returned to Croatia, Tudjman appointed him to a seat in parliament. Upon former Ustashe officer Mate Sarlija's return to Croatia, he was personally welcomed at the airport by Defense Minister Gojko Susak, and subsequently given the post of general in the Croatian Army. (22) On November 4, 1996, thirteen former Ustashe officers were presented with medals and ranks in the Croatian Army. (23)
Croatia adopted a new currency in 1994, the kuna, the same name as that used by the Ustashe state, and the new Croatian flag is a near-duplicate of the Ustashe flag. Streets and buildings have been renamed for Ustashe official Mile Budak, who signed the regime's anti-Semitic laws, and more than three thousand anti-fascist monuments have been demolished. In an open letter, the Croatian Jewish community protested the rehabilitation of the Ustashe state. In April 1994, the Croatian government demanded the removal of all "non-white" UN troops from its territory, claiming that "only first-world troops" understood Croatia's "problems." (24)
On Croatian television in April 1996, Tudjman called for the return of the remains of Ante Pavelic, the leader of the Croatian pro-Nazi puppet state "After all, both reconciliation and recognition should be granted to those who deserve it," Tudjman said, adding, "We should recognize that Pavelic's ideas about the Croatian state were positive," but that Pavelic's only mistake was the murder of a few of his colleagues and nationalist allies. (25) Three months later, Tudjman said of the Serbs driven from Croatia "The fact that 90 percent of them left is their own problem... Naturally we are not going to allow them all to return." During the same speech, Tudjman referred to the pro-Nazi state as "a positive thing."

4.You are talking about Medacki dzep when there are hundreds bestial massacres that you did. Did we have under siege for months/years cities like Vukovar, Sarajevo, Srebrenica, Dubrovnik and killed their citizens day after day? No, we defended our selves. And when we kicked your asses in Storm it was mayhem for few days. And you use it now for your discraceful attempt to equal the guilt when you harassed us for 5 years ?
.....................
Amnesty international on development of "final solution" for Serbs in Croatia 1991-1995.

Croatian Serbs Mihajlo Zec, his wife Marija and his 12-year-old daughter Aleksandra were killed in Zagreb in December 1991, allegedly by members of the Croatian police.(37)
The "Lora" trial against eight former members of the Croatian Military Police, held at the Split County Court in 2002.
A former member of the Croatian special police forces was twice acquitted by the Karlovac County Court of charges of having killed 13 disarmed JNA reservists in 1991.
. In November 1991 Amnesty International reported that "p to 21 Serbian villagers are said to have been killed on 22 August [1991> in the villages of Kinjacka, Cakle and Trnjani near Sisak when Croatian security forces undertook a house-to-house search for Serbian paramilitaries who had fired mortars at the town of Sisak.In a report published in March 1992, Amnesty International provided information on the killing of 12 Croatian Serbs in Sisak, some of whom had been employed in the INA oil refinery.The climate of intimidation against Croatian Serbs, and in general, those suspected of not supporting Croatian independence, which was prevailing in Sisak already at the start of the conflict, is illustrated by the publication on 29 June 1991, in the Croatian tabloid Slobodni Tjednik, of a list of 14 Sisak residents. The list included the names and, in some cases, the addresses and telephone numbers of alleged "enemy collaborators" and members of the Yugoslav military intelligence (Kontraobave�tajna Slu�ba � KOS). Jovo Crnobrnja, a retired police officer from Sisak and one of the Croatian Serbs named in the Slobodni Tjednik list, was reportedly killed on 27 August 1991 by armed men in uniform who attacked him in his house.Reportedly, after having had lunch with his daughter, on 20 September 1991 Petar Pajagi� left her house, walked to his nearby flat.The body of Petar Pajagi� was found in 2002 in the Danube river....On 17 September 1991 19-year-old student Ljubica Solar was killed in her boyfriend's flat in Sisak by a bullet fired from outside the building...
Most of those who went missingduring operations "Flash" and "Storm" in 1995 were members of the Croatian Serb communities. A list of 2,925 names of persons of Serb origin for whose disappearance the Croatian forces are allegedly responsible was transmitted to the Government of Croatia.The Croatian authorities claim to have exhumed the bodies of 499 persons who went missing after operations "Flash" and "Storm" and were buried in mass graves in Knin, Gra�ac, and Korenica.According to official figures, approximately 200 of these bodies were identified..
Amnesty International has received information from associations of relatives of persons reported missing during the conflict, such as the Association of the Families of the Missing and Abducted Persons of Vukovar (Udru�enje porodica nestalih i nasilno odvedenih lica Vukovar) and the FRY Association of Parents and Families of Arrested, Captured and Missing Persons (Udru�enje roditelja i porodica uhap�enih zarobljenih i nestalih lica SR Jugoslavije), on a number of cases of Croatian Serbs from the Vukovar region, who "disappeared" during the first phase of the conflict.(103) Slobodan Vu�kovi�, born in 1955, was a member of the Borovo Territorial Defence and "disappeared" after having been reportedly arrested in Borovo on 4 July 1991 by members of the Croatian Army. Thirty-eight-year-old Obrad Dra�a and 40-year-old Bogdan Stupar, on 29 July 1991 between 2pm and 3pm, were reportedly travelling by car from Bogdanovci to Vukovar, when they were stopped by members of the Croatian Army and arrested. Their fate and whereabouts have remained unknown ever since. Mladen Mrki�, born in 1938, "disappeared" on the afternoon of 31 July 1991, when he was reportedly arrested by members of the Croatian National Guard, who took him away in a car without licence plates. Slavko Miodrag, born in 1932, and Branko Mirjani�, born in 1935, "disappeared" after they were both reportedly arrested in Borovo, near Vukovar, by members of the Croatian National Guard on the night of 30-31 July 1991. Reportedly, Slavko Miodrag was subsequently seen by another detainee in the Osijek investigative centre (istra�ni centar)...

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: badgerboy Date: 09-10-2007, 13:08	Statements that get absolutely noone anywhere at all. "He started it" "I only gave him a tap. He overreacted & things just escalated from there". An old cliche but one that would make the world a better place if people only listened to it more. "Two wrongs don't make a right".

Author: dinamozagreb
Date: 09-10-2007, 16:35

Serbs decided in 90-91 by lifting road blocks and massacring their Croat neighbours that they don't have no intention to live in Croatia. They refused to take autonomy that was offered to them with Z4 plan because they wanted to live in Great Serbia. Almost all of Serb paramilitary forces had symbols of butchers Chetnics and in the period 91-95 they killed over 20 000 Croats and ethnically cleansed 1/3 of Croatian teritory. And you now have the scruples to talk about Storm in same way. Yes, all Serbs ran. But they never imagined that Croatia could take occupied territory back. You bombed almost every free part of Croatia for 5 years killing and massacring thousands of people, establishing tens prison camps where you beat, killed and starved prisoners to death... and you now crying about what happened to you in few days of Storm??? You flied because your parastate that was established on massacres was starting to disapper and you decided long before that you don't wont to live in Croatia.

You're are citing names of Serbs that were killed during the war. But Croats can't do the same because Serbs didn't kill sporadically...they killed in hundreds. We can't say a Croat X Y was killed in some village. Unfortunatelly we are saying that tens/hundreds of people were killed in one place. Tens and tens of Croats were dying per day during your siege and you are talking about a Serb man in Gospic, student in Sisak, man and wife in Vukovar...you should be a shame. To take example of Vukovar after your butchers killed thousands of wounded people, old men, women and children.

In Strom there were acts of retaliation and that was wrong but what did you expect after years of killings and massares made by Serbs? You're talking about 499 missing Serb person after Storm when you killed 20 000 people. You make me sick. You decided to go. Have a nice trip and don't ever come back.

Author: ignjat63
Date: 09-10-2007, 19:17

So hard to admit our side did all that, isn't it, fellow countryman?

But it wasn't really us, it was Milosevic, wasn't he?

On the other hand, it wasn't really Hitler, was he, it was the germans...

It wasn't really Musolini, it was the Italians...

It wasn't really Stalin, it was the evil Russians...

It wasn't really Pavelic was he, it was the Croats...

neverending story, it's everywhere

What was napoleon doing in Moscow, What was Alexander doing in India? Yet they are all very celebrated people and highly praised as some of the greatest people that ever lived.

Was Milosevic thinking he was really like them? Were Serbs thinkin he was? A bit of both really.

History the teacher of life? Not at all. History is a bitch...

Look at French and Germans and their history - full of wars through out the centuries. Yet they managed to form a Europe free of war for the last 60 years which is an achievement to be really proud of.

Serbs and Croats and the rest of us here are passing on hatred to the new generations successfully.

Author: Rohan
Date: 10-10-2007, 00:08

Just try to read hisotrical books, bring the facts, not propaganda...He's only sin was he tryed do defend his own country, and tried to save what was forbiden to save...SFR Yugoslavia(destroyed 1991) FR Yugoslavia(destroyed2002), Serbia and Montenegro(destroyed recentl), Serbia( in perspective to dissapear...)...he was on Thier road when he shouldnt be,leader against globalism and with carisma.When they could not find anything against him, the executed him in jail...

Author: cska
Date: 10-10-2007, 10:21

@Rohan
Badgerboy is right - you will get to nowhere if you and DinamoZagreb just exchange the official positions of your states and your school systems. Two wrongs don't make a right.
But everything in this world gets avenged sooner or later. Providence exists - be it the hand of God (if you are a believer) or be it the changing situations and human acts (if you are not a believer).
You mentioned with all-capital letters the BULGARIAN terrorist Vancia Mikoiloff. You are wrong. His name is Vanche Michailov. He is from "Macedonia". He is a patriot struggling against the Serbian anti-Bulgarian policy of ethnic cleansing. And he never blew a bomb or hi-jacked a plane. He was among the few real patriots who refused to sell themselves to the Devil even after the communist "brothers" Tito and Dimitrov decided to form all-Slavic federation of Yugoslavia and Bulgaria, with all Macedonian lands taken as a single autonomous republic. Half of my relatives born in Bulgaria and living 100% of their lives in Bulgaria were forced by the communists to declare themselves as "Macedonians" in their passports.
Sorry, but having in mind this, I can't do anything, but acclaim Vanche Michailov.
And I acclaim even more Vlado Chernozemski. In 1913 the Serbian king hit a 7-year old girl because he asked her "What nationality are you?" and she simply replied "I am Bulgarian". In 1934 the Serbian king got his avenge - he was killed in France with the French prime-minister. Chernozemski did it.
I don't like terrorism.
But everything on this world is retaliated, avenged or paid back some day. Sooner or later.
Now, you, the Serbs, are paying your moral debts for sins your ancestors had in the past.
Years after years you were growing more and more arrogant to your neighbours and even to your fellow nations in Yugoslavia. Now, your domination is over. And even if you cry out to the other end of the world, it won't change anything.
I am a friend with many Serbs. I am a friend with anyone, who is ready to sit around the table and have several glasses of rakia with me. But I don't like when anybody starts to quote his own national propaganda and think he is right. Even I myself do not think that I am 100% right. That's just my oppiinion. But I cannot judge what part of it is my own and what is a result of school, TV, or newspaper propaganda. I may have biased oppinion. That is why I am always ready for a constructive discussion. But not for copy-paste of big propaganda documents just to show-off and to force the others to believe me.
And, by the way, I always finish my posts with footballistic issues. The topic is about Kosovo membership in UEFA.
I have no problem with that. Personally, I would have been happier if 90% of Kosovo people were Serbs and if it remained in Serbia. But, even if I am unhappy, 90% of Kosovo people are Albanians and they will not live in Serbia.
I am really sorry for you - I never participated in a war, but I saw a lot of missiles burning your towns. And (despite the official propaganda of our government) I have shot quite a lot bullets against Albanian squads of guerrilla trying to pass the border of Serbia and Macedonia with Bulgaria. And I may assure you that neither Albanians were friendly to us, nor we were to them. I am happy enough that twice in my life faith decided that the bullet will hit 50 cm from my head. I am alive. I am happy about that. And I know that there are moments, when even if you do your best efforts, you can't prevent some things to happen. If faith had decided otherwise, I would not have been able to do anything...
So, stop playing the role of war experts and disaster specialists and start posting about football.
Football and sports in general is the only way a modern and civilized nation can show-off and beat another nation. Sports is the only way to wage "wars" and show "superiority" even to nations 10000 km away from you. Sports is the only way to beat somebody without killing or humiliating him. Sports is the only way to win over Croatia or over Serbia without burning their villages.
So, stop taliking about wars and massacres and enjoy sports.
Write about football.
Peace to all. And all best wishes to all of you.
----
The world is a pub. Let's sit together around one table!

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: badgerboy Date: 10-10-2007, 11:45	cska ignjat also...

Author: Rohan
Date: 10-10-2007, 13:12

for Kosovo in Uefa, but if u want to open Pandora box, go for it. Low scale of ww3, as it is now,can easy rump into larger level.

Hope that Republic Serbland will on same day request join to Uefa, as well Ilirida, the albanian half of macedonia...In Bulgaria u dont have such problem, u didnt beat Turks "with dicks", u simply cleaned them off from Bulgaria into Turkey in few days, in 80's. Or converted them by force. Croatia as well.(u can

to each other around, facts of ur brothership are known to us...)

Author: cska
Date: 10-10-2007, 17:17

Rohan
When you are unhappy that someone does not support your oppinion and that the others join his (her) side, you just start murmuring "Oh, you'll see some day..." or "Oh, happy you that you "cleaned" your minorities".
First, I am proud to be of the only nation in the world that saved 100% (!!!) of its Jews during WW2. And this, having in mind that our king was of German origin and that German troops were based in our officially Axis country. Tell me of any other country "allied" or occupied by Hitler, in which Jewish population INCREASED during WW2.
Denmark saved 7000 of their 10000 Jews. Bulgarian nation, clerics, politicians and soldiers saved 50000 out of 50000. Nowadays we have around 80000 living in Bulgaria and around 150000 of the present Israeli people originated from those Bulgarian Jews.
If you don't believe me, ask saras21, who is an Israeli man with Bulgarian Jew as a grandmother. And ask many Austrian Jews, who fled Austria and got Bulgarian citizenship and thus survived the war.
Second, I am proud that saving the Jews in WW2 was not the first case of ethnic tolerance in my country. Even when we were pagan in 681, the khan's laws allowed everybody to live in Bulgaria irrespective of ethnicity and religion. Nobody except the noble families was obliged to follow the khan's religion. Even after Christianity was adopted in 864, the state remained tolerant.
Sorry for you, but we did not "clean" the Turks in 1980's.
The communists tried this stupid step, but this was unsuccessful. By the way, many of them fled voluntarily, because they saw this a "privillege", because Bulgarians were not allowed to travel in Western countries and they saw a possibility to flee to West through Turkey. So, even non_turks got passports claiming Turkish origins and consciousness.
Now, we again have our 800000 Turks, because many of them saw that live in Turkey was as hard (or as easy) as the one in Bulgaria. Many of them returned.
By the way, the Turkish party is now in the ruling coalition.
And all of this was possible, because as Ribentrop and Goring reported to Hitler during WW2 "unfortunately, we don't see any hope the campaign against Jews to succeed in Bulgaria, because Bulgarians have an inborn 1000 years lasting sense of ethnic tolerance. They simply can't understand our arguments why we must chase Jews".

I'm proud to be a part of such minor, but ethnically tolerant and diverse nation. We have Turks, Gypsies, Armenians, Jews, Vlachs and from 10 years even Chinese, Russian and Arab communities.
One of my best friends is from Iraq. Another one from Armenia. My dentist is a Jew, as well as her sister, also one of my best friends.
Sorry for you, but your ethnic hatred does not allow you to see how good ethnic tolerance is.

Peace to all. Please, enjoy football and stop ethnic hatred.

Author: Rohan
Date: 11-10-2007, 00:42
Edited by: Rohan
at: 11-10-2007, 00:49

CSKA
No hate in my posts, im replying by the facts, about known or less known things in former yu, related to the "KOSOVO in UEFA", why yes, and why not. Thats all.
Dont know, really, about Jews in Bulgaria ww2, im glad about level of tolerance of Bulgarian nation that time.(even Romania). I know position of Serbs from Croatia, as im one of them, and our churces were burned as well as sinagoges, in 1941-45.We shared same destiny like Jews, in Croatia and Bosnia,in same camps.Just bacuse we refuse to join Hitler allies, we suppose to dissapear. And now, another "Pact" is in front of our doors, simmilar simbols their wear...
I also remenber that Partizan Belgrade was banned from UEFA this season from Zrinjski incident in Mostar. In next round Zrinjski played againts Israeli klub, and their fans provoced Jews with "Auschwitz",if im wrong let somebody correct me here...

I laso cant say much about Jews in Serbia,1941-45, i know that Kosovo was italian occupation zone and given to albania, that Vojvodina was part of Hungary and Banat, as other part, was german zone allocated to Romania, and eastern Serbia was underBulgarian occupation zone. And i've heard that Bulgarian soldiers 1941 were not so much tolerant there, maybe u know more...
We never cross any border to harras other nations or countries, (like Greeks too) no occupied anybody, we always defended our lands.

U r tolerant person, thats OK.... Me 2.But sometiems u made some sharp concusions which are far from true, and thats offending and hurts.
Yes, Turks returnes,but it is not allowed to us , in Croatia. Our village could be the also touristic atraction there, nice ruins in deep grass.(even the wafe of US ambasador (W.Montgomerry)in Croatia couldnt resisted to made foto-session of HADAD fasion collection in some of buned serb villages in dalmatia,1998.(google)).No jobs for us, no appartments, no reconstructed houses, only graves of old serb elephants who going to die there...
Head of OSCE in CRO, (spanish) gived statement that Croatia done much in return of serbs, and that mission should end....
Ive tried to explain that nobody can take part of another country beacuse is mayority on that particular number of km2, by simply birth rate or census in last 47 years...Krajina existed for many hundred years as Serb military frontier against the Otoman Turks Impery,but collapsed with entire population in 4 days,1995, on every of 17 000 km2 in Croatia.With all facts ive mention.

"Peace to all. Please, enjoy football and stop ethnic hatred."

Author: dinamozagreb
Date: 11-10-2007, 18:39

"...Krajina existed for many hundred years as Serb military frontier against the Otoman Turks Impery,but collapsed with entire population in 4 days,1995, on every of 17 000 km2 in Croatia.With all facts ive mention."

A classic Serb manipulation.

A classic Serb manipulation.

"So called Republic of Serbian Krajina" and "Military Krajina" that existed in 16-19. centuy are two different things. And Serbs were of course always trying to identify those two terms.

"Military Krajina" was made in 16.century as a protection province because of Osman penetration and it was run by Habsburgs. "Military Krajina" was made of Croats, Croat refugees and refugees that came outside of Croatia dominated by Vlachs and some number of Serb refugees. And Vlachs were romanised balcan people that were in the process of slavisation. Many of them were Ortodox. After Osman threat decreased Militay Krajina continued to exist many because of Habsburg interests. Military Krajina gradually started to disapper in 18. century and in 19. c. was finally reunited with Croatia.

So Serb started to manipulate with term MK and use it as a part of their ideology - "Military Krajina population was mainly made of Serbs" - "Serbs defended Croatia while Croats ran" - "Serbs in MK were never part of Croatia" - and similar crap...

Population of MK was mixed and made by autochthon people, refugees dominated by Vlachs and all sort od refugees. To talk about Vlachs as Serbs or Croats is completely wrong and that is another Serb legend. The separation in MK started in firts place because of confesional reasons. Serbs and most of Vlachs were Ortodox and in 19.c. there were about 40 pct of Ortodox people. So even then Serb weren't majority.

Serbs claim that MK was separated from Croatia. That is true but people in MK then didn't have no ethnic identification. And Serb now are manipulating that MK was Serbian.

When MK finally disappeared it stayed in memory without any legal, ethnic or any kind of civilisation connotations. Until 20. c. of course when Serbs started to manipulate with the name.

There was never geografical entity with continuity with the name "Krajina". "Military Krajina" is mainly historic term that has no meaning outside of the context of its time. There is no other "Krajina" except of "Military Krajina".

Serbs started to counterfeit history for their own benefit. So called "Republic of Serbian Krajina" had in its borders occupied parts of Croatia that were never a part of MK: Dalmatia and East Slavonia for example.

When Yugoslavia started to separate Serbs started using term "Krajina" as an excuse so they could have legality for their separatism. As I said MK in 19.c. when it was abolished was mainly made of Croat entity. In 1990-91 Serbs were majority in some parts of Dalmatia and minority in Eastern Slavonia. That part of Croatia they occupied but that parts were never part of "Military Krajina".

A geografical term "Krajina" never existed from 1881. to 1991. Serbs in 1991. started to use it nad manipulate with it. A word "Krajina" was in that peroid only ideological fantasy, it was manifatured by Serbs because of their separatist ideas and outside of that term "Krajina" had no meaning.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: ignjat63 Date: 11-10-2007, 19:50	I just noticed it will take three more weeks or even more for this topic to be archieved. Too bloody long.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Rohan Date: 12-10-2007, 01:08	To Krys Hope this ethnic map of Montenegro will help u about Dobra Voda... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Montenegroetno03.png

Author: Rohan
Date: 12-10-2007, 01:36
Edited by: Rohan
at: 12-10-2007, 01:44

and Dinamozagreb...
Which part there is serbian propaganda? No serbs in military krajina or military krajina territory is not Krajina territtory 1991?

Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1946,...,1952
Reference: EB, Edition 1946, (through 1952), Volume 6, page 730 and 731:
Entry: entry "Croatia-Slavonia"
(Note that even in the title: Croatia and Slavonia are two different entities...)
Quote:
Necessity dictated in 1578 the formation of special provinces known as the "military frontiers" (q.v.) (Vojna Krajina) - the Slavonian between Drave and Kulpa with Varazdin as its centre, the Croatian between Kulpa and sea, with Karlovac (Karlstadt), so named after Archduke Charles of Styria, who held the supreme command.

...in 1699... Karlovci was to be centre of the Serbian Orthodox Church, the patriarch of Pec', with thousands of Serbian refugees from Turkey, having settled in Slavonia and south Hungary under a special charter from Leopold I in 1690... ...In 1769, 1774 and 1776 Serbian national congress were allowed to meet in Karlovci, and again in 1790 at Temesvar, when Serb privileges were confirmed by Leopold II...
..in 1699... Karlovci was to be centre of the Serbian Orthodox Church, the patriarch of Pec', with thousands of Serbian refugees from Turkey, having settled in Slavonia and south Hungary under a special charter from Leopold I in 1690... ...In 1769, 1774 and 1776 Serbian national congress were allowed to meet in Karlovci, and again in 1790 at Temesvar, when Serb privileges were confirmed by Leopold II...

The New Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1986
Reference: EB, Edition 1986, Macropedia, Vol 29, page 1061
Entry: Yugoslavia, Croatia, History
Quote:

The Vojna Krajina (Militargrenze), a military frontier zone on Croatian territory, was formed in 1578.THIS ZONE WAS SUBJECT DIRECTLY TO THE EMPEROR IN VIENNA...
Turkish invasion instigated a partial change in the ethnic aspect of Croatian lands. Large numbers of Croats abandoned their homes and moved northward seeking safety, some even going out of Croatia altogether into Austria. In partly depopulated areas the rulers settled... ...or granted certain privileges to the Serbs who escaped from the Balkans and took refuge in the Vojna Krajina to became defenders of the Habsburg Empire.

U mentioned "There was never geografical entity with continuity with the name "Krajina". "Military Krajina" is mainly historic term that has no meaning outside of the context of its time. There is no other "Krajina" except of "Military Krajina"."....the same continuity like Croatia had.

Author: thomas
Date: 12-10-2007, 11:21

To get back some aspects of football into the diskussion:

I have heard proposals to give Kosovo a status similar to Hongkong. Which means no independence in politics, but independent economy, own currency, own IOC and own FA.

Now let us see, what would happen, if the politicians really decide that way. I think, UEFA would not be able to keep their "only independent countries as new members". Perhaps that could even be some hope for Gibraltar and Greenland?

Author: dinamozagreb
Date: 12-10-2007, 13:49

Well there is an answer for every your statement in my previous post.

You - "Which part there is serbian propaganda? 1) No serbs in military krajina or 2) military krajina territory is not Krajina territtory 1991?"

Bravo, you showed a classic way that Serbs are trying to manipulate facts. In my post i wrote numerous times there there were Serbs in MK. You are acting dumb.

Me 1) - i"n 19.c. there were about 40 pct of Ortodox people. So even then Serb weren't majority. Serbs claim that MK was separated from Croatia. That is true but people in MK then didn't have no ethnic identification."

Me 2) - ""Republic of Serbian Krajina" had in its borders occupied parts of Croatia that were never a part of MK: Dalmatia and East Slavonia for example."...borders of MK and "RSK" are two different things...if Serbs lived in Istria you would have called it part of "RSK".

You - "Karlovci was to be centre of the Serbian Orthodox Church bls bla bla..."

Me - What's your point...I said Serbs and most of the Vlachs were Ortodox...Where did I wrote there were no Or. churches?

You - "THIS ZONE WAS SUBJECT DIRECTLY TO THE EMPEROR IN VIENNA..."

Me - I wrote that first. Stop quoting me

"Military Krajina" was made in 16.century as a protection province because of Osman penetration and it was run by Habsburgs. After Osman threat decreased Military Krajina continued to exist many because of Habsburg interests."

....

That's all from me...and you should have said at the beginning taht you are "Sloba" fan...so I wouldn't waste my time...

Author: Rohan
Date: 12-10-2007, 15:16

No, not fan of anybody, just the witness of Croat massacre of Krajina. And in previous topics I proofed that with documents and facts that ethnical and racial hate and cleaning in Croatia was started before Milosevic, and in fact, it was camouflaged with secession�
In your post u confirmed that Military Krajina existed for many centuries, mainly inhabited by Serbs who defend the rest of Habsburg imperia from Turks�and quoted some encyclopedic data. In Google maps u may check that MK borders are quite the same with Krajina 1991 ethnic bordered, nothing disputable there.

On 11th Oct, I only wrote �Krajina existed for many hundred years as Serb military frontier against the Ottoman Turks Impery, but collapsed with entire population in 4 days,1995, on every of 17 000 km2 in Croatia. With all facts ive mention.�
Then u replied its Serb classic manipulation, but in ur posts u confirmed all of this.

Don�t know why u mentioned Istria, the province that was always belong to Italy,up to end of ww2, like towns Zara (Zadar) and Fiume (Rijeka), from where Tito�s communist banished all Italians (Esuli) after WW2 saying they are Mussolini supporters (now , after many centuries u exiled Serbs, saying they are Milosevic supporters.) After u banished all �supporters �now u have ethnically cleaned country.

Author: dinamozagreb
Date: 12-10-2007, 16:18

You're acting dumb again...

"No, not fan of anybody, just the witness of Croat massacre of Krajina."

The fact that Serbs fled and "499" were killed you call massacre. The fact Croats fled form 1/3 occupied country in 90-91 and 20 000 were killed you call what?

So our independence was only excuse to kill and expell Serbs? You really did it there

. Why did Slovenia, Bosnia, Macedonia got away in the same month. Coincidence?

"In your post u confirmed that Military Krajina existed for many centuries, mainly inhabited by Serbs who defend the rest of Habsburg imperia from Turks�and quoted some encyclopedic data."

You are acting dumb again and again...I actually said that Serbs weren't main inhabitants and that in MK ethnicall diversity didn't exist. Read my post again, and again, and again....

"Then u replied its Serb classic manipulation, but in ur posts u confirmed all of this."

What did I confirm...wow you're mad. I said quite clear that in 91' word "Krajina" was only word. What ever Croats destroyed it wasn't "Krajina" but your parastate that you happend to call "Krajina".

"Don�t know why u mentioned Istria, the province that was always belong to Italy,up to end of ww2, like towns Zara (Zadar) and Fiume (Rijeka), from where Tito�s communist banished all Italians (Esuli) after WW2 saying they are Mussolini supporters (now , after many centuries u exiled Serbs, saying they are Milosevic supporters.) After u banished all �supporters �now u have ethnically cleaned country."

Lol, that part of Croatia was taken by Italy. It was actually them whom after they came stated with romanisation. Italy ruled some parts of Croatia many times in history. And in the end we prevailed.

Author: Rohan
Date: 13-10-2007, 02:08

Sorry, let me be patient with u, i see that u watching to much CRO TV, on these particular days, which again started with strong anti-Serb and with same reporters from war period (probably they prepare u for who know what in near future). On same TV word "Serb" can be mention more than 20 time in negative connotation, per day...and with pro Albanian sympathies

The fact that Serbs fled and "499" were killed you call massacre. The fact Croats fled form 1/3 occupied country in 90-91 and 20 000 were killed you call what?"
.....................................................
In may previous posts u can find links that mention how many Serbs were die and by whom, when u try to talk with exact figures try to put links to exact data�s, and names of 20 000 victims. In Operation Stormdied more than 2300, mainly during next few months of terror, some of 800 still missing...

"So our independence was only excuse to kill and expel Serbs? You really did it there . Why did Slovenia, Bosnia, Macedonia got away in the same month. Coincidence?"

1>
Yes. War in Slovenia war short, and only between Slovenian guerilla and YU army, JNA. Bosnia was to close to Croatia and historically connected with situation in Croatia. Ask yourselves why no ethnical cleaning and war in Macedonia, or Slovenia. Did present Croatian money, symbols, uniforms, name of units, and military ranks, and many more things are from period of nazi NDH State from 1941-45? What was purpose of that, if Croatia always says that this Croatia was not continuity of NDH? Just one thing...to rise and provoke the Serbs in Krajina. Soon, the open attacks started...

"In your post u confirmed that Military Krajina existed for many centuries, mainly inhabited by Serbs who defend the rest of Habsburg imperia from Turks�and quoted some encyclopedic data."

You are acting dumb again and again...I actually said that Serbs weren't main inhabitants and that in MK ethnical diversity didn't exist. Read my post again, and again, and again....

2>
Try to find maps of MK, and u�ll see that it passing trough Croatia, Bosnia and Vojvodina, even part of Romania... I�m just saying that in Croatian part of MK Serbs were dominant even there, as well 1991. Vlachos were manly in Vojvodina, concerning they were from Romania

"What did I confirm...wow you're mad. I said quite clear that in 91' word "Krajina" was only word. What ever Croats destroyed it wasn't "Krajina" but your parastate that you happened to "

3>
Even Croatia was only the word once, like many other places...no comment to this. we always call it as Krajina, with both parts-in Croatia and Bosnia, area of banja luka

"Don�t know why u mentioned Istria, the province that was always belong to Italy,up to end of ww2, like towns Zara (Zadar) and Fiume (Rijeka), from where Tito�s communist banished all Italians (Esuli) after WW2 saying they are Mussolini supporters (now , after many centuries u exiled Serbs, saying they are Milosevic supporters.) After u banished all �supporters �now u have ethnically cleaned country."
Lol, that part of Croatia was taken by Italy. It was actually them whom after they came stated with romanisation. Italy ruled some parts of Croatia many times in history. And in the end we prevailed."

4>
Prevailed by force in few days, am saying only that, thanks to Tito (Croat) communist party on that way u took ethnic control of east Adriatic coast. with US assistance, u expelled also Serbs far from the same coast , which was the exact aim of this war

Author: ignjat63
Date: 13-10-2007, 11:32

to be on topic again.

it is nothing new that in history countries gained or lost territories thorough wars colonization or political processes and it will always happen. So it is not the end of the world if a country loses a part of terrirory though it is of course a painful thing.

Look at AustriaHungary for example, and even ex-Yugoslavia, or Soviet union. They came into existance, they were for a while and today they are not. So *ucking what?

Or look at Great Britain and her colonies and what is today left of an Empire in which the Sun never sets.

I am not at all keen on territories but the quality of life. I mentioned AustriaHungary. Compare its territory with the territoty of Austria today yet the quality of life in Austria is great.

Serbia today is stuck in the middle of what should have been only a short transitional period. Everything is highly unregulated here which allows state-mafia to steal enermous amounts of money and property. They are untouchable. But what most people do not seem to realize is that such a country is simply unable to solve such big problems as Kosovo. And Kosovo slips away, not because the whole world is against us or what-not, but because our politicians do not want to even think about starting to make Serbia an organized and lawful country.

Personally I would not mind Kosovo becoming an UEFA member but not before it is recognized by UN.

Author: dinamozagreb
Date: 13-10-2007, 16:00

Ok man. You know what happened. You lived in your "RSK bubble" for 5 years and watched independent Serb media. How can I challenge that. Ok...yes, Serbs suffered more in few days of Storm than Croats who were for 5 years constantly pounded with bombs nad who were in 90-91 expelled and massacred in their homes...

"Bosnia was to close to Croatia and historically connected with situation in Croatia. "....ahahhahah.....Tell me this. Why did over a 1,000,000 Muslim refugees come to Croatia and felt safe there?. Why didn't they ran to Serbia if Croats were such boogymen...Croat-Muslim conspiracy haaa? Over and out.

Author: cska
Date: 15-10-2007, 12:12

Rohan and DinamoZagreb
You were so intensely clashing that you missed the intelligent posting of ignjat63.
He is right. It's not about being "keen in territory", but in "quality of life". What's the use of having an independent country, enclave, strip of land, authonomous region or a free city, if their economy is ruined and you are starving. Of course, the other way round does not hole dtrue. When you live well and in a good standard of living under a big empire, you can think that if your nation declares independence, you will just retain your high living standard, but now under your own independent state. Sorry, but you can't have everything in this life. That's why we often make compromises and that is why money exists and we "pay prices".
Nothing is for free.
I am not sure that after WW1 the living standard in Sarajevo or Zagreb was higher than the one in Austro-Hungary before that.
I am not sure that the standard of living in Croatia grew incredibly higher than the one in Tito Yugoslavia.
I am 100% sure that in Bulgaria, Romania, Czechia, Poland and the other ex-Soviet allies, after the first years of democracy most of the people were living more miserably.
Actually, why do states exist? A state exists, because this is an organized group of people, who try to organize their lives over a common area of land which belongs to them. A state exists, mainly because all citizens are obliged to pay taxes, while few administrators decide how to allocate the money for "the public good and benefit". And, yes, a state means also "an organized army", because in life you can gain something either if you produce it, or if you take it by force from the others. So, we pay taxes, and we maintain armies, because we want to be "protected" and to be sure that we can produce without being killed or enslaved by others.
And if a country cannot provide security, organization, administration and propoer allocation of public money, its citizens grow angry - they can uprise, they can emigrate, or they may try to form a state of their own.
The problem of Kosovo is that none of its Albanian inhabitants believes that Serbia can be the country that will protect him (her) and that Serbia can take care for his benefits as a citizen. Albanians in Kosovo believe that they can take care of themselves better in their own state. And, you should SEE that Albanians in Kosovo are divided 50-50 to unite or not with Albania. The 50% that don't want unification are clever enough to see that a poor country like Albania will be even more burdened and will not help them in any way. Just in the same way, many "Monteniggars" voted to separate from Serbia for economical and political reasons that have nothing to do with ethnicity (they are Serbs). "Monteniggars" have artificial name after the country, but are Serbs by origin. They voted against Serbia, because were seeing it as a burden for their economical development and for their striving to join EU. Ethnicity and propaganda have nothing to do with it. Montenegro people just wanted a better organized state, better caring about them than Serbia did.
Actually, it is the welfare of people that really counts. If a group of people feel themselves well, they will never try to uprise, protest or declare independence. If they feel miserably, no government can resist against its own nation being unhappy.

Author: Krys
Date: 15-10-2007, 15:33

BTW I don't see the reason why montenegrians can have a better life after separation... They have no production at all.. They had many serbs going for a summer rest there but now most part of them are going to other countries( some because of principle some becuase of price). Montenegro has undeveloped infrastructure.. people from West Europe won't go there by thousands.. because of this..
Now there are many Russians (middle-class people) who go for the rest there (they are bored with Turkey and Egypt).. it's fashionable now to go there or also to buy some property.. Also there is much advertisement to go to CG... But it's temporary..
5-7 years and there will be another place.. another Budva..
So montenegrian high level of life depends on only to sell, sell and sell - everything you have.. This is their economy itself..

Just if your rich uncle died and u got a lot of money..
U are not working but are used to live well.. So u sell sell and sell the property.. But after 10-20 or more yrs u will have nothing to sell..

Author: Osiris
Date: 15-10-2007, 16:08
Edited by: Osiris
at: 15-10-2007, 16:18

I have read this topic with great interest. Great respect to Cska for hystorical facts and position and to Ignjat63 for his understanding and moral positition. Respect to others.
Being Russian from Moscow I see some parallels between present Russian policy and that of Miloshevic. Our (Russian) official propaganda also blames foreign countries: USA, Poland, Georgia, Ukraine, Estonia... for all domestic problems to distract attention of the cityzens from the fact that democracy in Russia is curbed, the power is usurped by corrupted bureaucracy. Also the ruling junta feed nationalistic feelings isolating our country from the world. I hope Balkan example will cool the hot heads in our country.
feel sorrow for the sufferings of all the people in ex-Yougoslavia war: croatians and serbs, albanians and muslims.
I wish all peoples in Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo to overcome hateread and live in peace and cooperation.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: levski.bg Date: 16-10-2007, 23:11 Edited by: levski.bg at: 16-10-2007, 23:14	Osiris, great post ! Many of the things you mentioned, is unfortunately our bulgarian problems too. Let's hope that, people like you and maybe new generation of people (generally) will change the things.

Author: ignjat63
Date: 17-10-2007, 11:29

"...democracy in Russia is curbed..."

nice post, osiris. however, democracy in Russia (Serbia, Croatia,...) is not curbed. It simply never existed. It will take ages for civil rights in our societies to develop. We must be patient and hope that it will go for the better. One simply cannot expect things to change overnight. Mentality of the people in ex-YU (and in Russia too) is not democratic - it is totalitarean - communist or nationalistic. It will take several generations for this to change. And we must also keep in mind that it took a long long time for democracy in the west to develop. We are on the beginning of that road "The long and winding road". Regards

Author: Osiris
Date: 17-10-2007, 11:50

thanks to Levski.bg and Igjat63

Ignjat63,

I agree with you. I ment not democracy but first off-springs of it which appeared in Russia in 90-th. But the people was not ready it appeared to be much easier to applause nationalistic steps of politicians. I also agree that the road to democracy is long but hope not so long as you stated in your post. Europe went this long way amidst Dark Ages but now we have a good example of effective democracy in the West. I am happy that Ukrainian people which has almost similar mentality as Russian moved to Democracy. Hope it will be a good example. However our Russian politicians consider this bad example. In Russia the situation is worth due to the imperial past and present. Still hope it takes 20 years.
Are you from Belgrade?
Respect.

Author: ignjat63
Date: 17-10-2007, 12:40

yes, i am from belgrade, red star fan. also, i am what we call here yugo-nostalgic. at least in sports. i miss greatly old yu league with the likes of dinamo zagreb, hajduk split, sarajevo, zeljeznicar, velez, sloboda tuzla, olimpija, vardar, buducnost, all of them in one league, and i cannot get used to this pitiful excuse of what we loosely term "serbian football league". and to what has become of red star today. but cest la vie.

Author: Osiris
Date: 17-10-2007, 13:05
Edited by: Osiris
at: 17-10-2007, 13:11

2 Ignjat,

the same situation in ex-USSR: Dynamo Kiev, Dynamo Tbilisi, Dnipro, Ararat, Dynamo Minsk, Spartak, CSKA, Torpedo, Dynamo Moscow...
I was and am the fan of Dynamo Kiev (Kyiv) 13 times USSR champion which plays in Ukrainian championship now. Dynamo Kiev-Spartak Moscow was a fantastic classico at that times. (I lived in Kiev till 13 y.old. Today i'll go to Moscow Luzhniki stadium for Russia-England game but I cannot force myself to become the fan of some Moscow club.
BTW in our country and ex-USSR we continue to call your favorit club Crvena Zvezda without translating it from Serbian to Russian.

I think it is difficult to keep such a democratic mentality as yours after such an atrocious war. If such attitude will be widespread in Serbia your country will have a good future.
In our country nationalists usually receive more than 80% of the votes. But I hope that it is not true and votes are falcified which is also bad.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Pedro Date: 18-10-2007, 23:56 Edited by: Pedro at: 18-10-2007, 23:58	Get used to it. Soon you will see the same phenomenom in Western Europe. UK ( England and Scotland); Belgium ( Flanders and Wallonia); Spain ( Catalonia, Basque Country, Galiza); Italy ( Padania, Two Sicily Kingdom). Just wait for the big economic depression that is arriving.

Author: cska
Date: 19-10-2007, 09:43

Pedro,
Besides being radical extremist, are you an economist too???
And, BTW, Italy has the problem of "discriminative" attitude of North Italians towards the Southern ones for economic reasons. But they never had and don't have any secessionist problems.
Catalunya and Euskadia (or Basquia) already have very extensive autonomy and don't need to secede. (if you consider ETA wishes the same as people's wishes, you are wrong)
Also, if Vlaanderen secedes from Belgium and unites with Netherlands, then Walloon being the French speaking region has no problems to unite with France as it was before 1830.
The only problem will be that our "Belgian" friends will have to choose another adjective for nationality. And many of them don't really want to break the whole country.
So, where is your economic crisis and the financial Armageddon that you predict???

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: bert.kassies Date: 19-10-2007, 10:09	cska, I respect your knowledge of European history, but now I think you make a mistake. As far as I know Wallonia was never part of France (with the exception of the time of Napoleon). From 1815-1830 Wallonia was part of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands.

Author: Rohan
Date: 20-10-2007, 00:45

to Osiris...
"was and am the fan of Dynamo Kiev (Kyiv) 13 times USSR champion which plays in Ukrainian championship now. Dynamo Kiev-Spartak Moscow was a fantastic classico at that times. (I lived in Kiev till 13 y.old. Today i'll go to Moscow Luzhniki stadium for Russia-England game but I cannot force myself to become the fan of some Moscow club."

Sure, for so many year under communist system u lost your sense for the word democracy and �demonocracy�, which are sounds the same but in actual life are opposite, the right of double standards came on power, which prescribe that international laws or UN charter will be will be applied just according to necessity of those who want oil and planet for themselves. They today choose their allies, alliances or enemies, over the night , using all means, including the naked force. They don�t care about historical fact, current political of economical level of societies in some states, they want to reach their aims.
In your posts u use the term of �national feeling junta�, but in fact that junta just recognize the same evil that destroyed Yugoslavia, and now it turns to Russia, from inside and , soon, from outside. And so far, they use the same models of destabilization of Russia from inside, as they use to replace Milosevic with pro-western servants, who still can�t explain to its own nation that problem of Kosovo was not democratic problem because of Milosevic but because of intention of UK and USA to minimize Serbia (EU is just the executor). The principle of carrot and stick is applicable everywhere in Europe in measure of that nation fulfill the tasks they need from them�.(civil society projects for destabilization, use and purpose of non-government organization, transport of al-kaida prisoners, the rocket shield in Russian borders�.)
If Russian leadership recognize this from Serbian way, im sure they will reach the real democracy, not the one which destroyed the ethnical space and territory of Serbia, trough the hands of �demonocratic� servants.

Just yesterday, the Head of Bosnia (who succeeded to separate Serbia and Montenegro with 51-49%), Miroslaw Laicak of Slovakia, after he returned from Brussels, with new tasks, started to imperil the sanctions against the Serb entity in Bosnia because they refused to reform its police in order to put them under Moslem control in Sarajevo. This is just a proof that al-kaida does not exits, and it is just a camouflage of US-UK secret services.

And Osiris, as a Serb, I was fan of Hajduk Split, and im still�maybe the last one.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: moro Date: 20-10-2007, 11:47	112 posts on this topic.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: badgerboy Date: 20-10-2007, 14:10	"This is just a proof that al-kaida does not exits, and it is just a camouflage of US-UK secret services". Now I've heard it all...

Author: Osiris
Date: 21-10-2007, 06:50

Rohan,

thanks for your post. I understand you� feelings. The democracy is not a cure to all problems. And double standards really exist unfortunately. What I meant that mistake(?) of Miloshevi� was that he tried to modify the boarders of new states by force. Which opened Pandora box. The war crimes were made by many participants of the war from all sides. When Croatia and later Bosnia separeted the boarders of new states were not "fair" A lot of Serbs lived in newly independant countries. The mistake was that instead of talks about the wrights of minorities, about new boarders etc, it was chosen "easier way" of boarders correction.
In Russia the same decision was taken about Chechnya. The war caused 250 000 victims and affected the political and moral situation in Russia. Now we have fake elections, beaurocracy rule and return to Brezhnev era to some extent.
I don't know all the details of ex-Yougoslavian policy but I think there were the possibilities to avoid war. They were missed.
And I don't think that somebody (USA etc) intended to diminish Serbia, Russia... IMHO such ideas are of domestic origin in order to feel nationalistic feelings and to help certain politicians to keep power.
Respect.

Author: cska
Date: 22-10-2007, 11:54

@Bert
Thanks for the correction. Actually, you are right. To the extent I know, before 1815 Walloon was part of France during Napoleon. After 1815 it was decided that Belgium should be created, but Netherlands wanted to annex the Dutch speaking part of Vlaanderen. As far as I know, there was a war between Belgium and Netherlands (with UK allied with Belgium and Prussia+Austria allied with Netherlands). The London treaty in 1836 was signed and Netherlands recognized Belgian independence.
Now, from what I know from my Belgian friends, initially Walloon was the richer and industrialized part of Belgium, while Vlaanderen was a poor region. But over the course of years, due to their Protestant ethics (also typical for USA and for Netherlands), Flemish people started to rise from poverty, while the Vallonian people were counting on their past glories and wealths. And little by little, Flemish part surpassed Vallonian one by its wealth. (the same happened to England and Spain after Columbus - one of the countries lived in a very pragmatic way, while the other one counted only on gold brought from America and eventually went bankrupted and ruined by inflation)
Now, Flemish part is more industrialized and richer than Vallonian. And if once upon a time Flemish wanted to be united with Vallonia because they worked for and earned money from the Vallonian industrialists, now it's the opposite - many Flemish want independence, because they now look at Vallonians as an "obstacle" to their further wealth.
Sorry, if I might not be right - that's what I've heard from Belgians (of course, Flemish ones - maybe Wallons would say different things)
@ Rohan and @ Osiris
Rohan, if Russia is in "demonocracy" and if it is destabilized from inside, then the "demons" in Russia should now support USA. But Russia still supports Serbia for Kosovo.
Serbia was not "decreased" because of USA/UK/etc. conspiracy. Don't you see that present borders are the same as were the borders of republics during Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia was created in 1918 as Serbo-Croat-Slovene Kingdom. Later on, it took the name Yugoslavia (meaning "South Slavia" and implying very well the objective of this country - to unite all South Slavs). In 1945, the Tito partisans took power and formed the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia having 6 republics (like the 6 independent states nowadays). And the borders between those republics were determined so long ago - more than 60 years. But in 1945 nobody in Yugoslavia believed that communism will fall and Yugoslavia will break up.
Look, Czechia and Slovakia now have the same borders they had in Czechoslovakia. Russia, Ukraine, etc. have now the borders they had in USSR, although there are many people from one nation living in neighboring countries - this is the result from migrations and marriages within USSR. All countries that declared independence have the borders they had as autonomous regions in their former federations. You can't just accuse "world conspiracy" for the application of general practice that as long as this is possible, no borders will be altered by force if they were peacefully established before.
So, the fact that now many Serbs live outside Serbia amd many Bulgarians live outside Bulgaria and many Romanians live outside Romania and many Turks live in Greece and many Albanians live in Macedonia - those facts have nothing to do with the present borders of Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey, Albania, etc.
Note that any of the Balkan countries can claim so much territories in its neighbors that we need 3-4 Balkan peninsulas to satisfy everybody.
Also, there are 2 big problems:
1. You can't decide on present borders and territories based just on history,traditions and ownership in the past. In this way, being the oldest European country (of the ones that exist nowadays and with the same name and people) established in 681, christianized in 864 and having the Cyrrilic letters from 864 (created in 855 by the semi Greek-semi Bulgarian Cyril and Methodius), can claim all the lands in Hungarian Alfold (east part), Wallachia, Thrace, Macedonia, Serbia, Bessarabia and Crimea.
However, in the same way, Greeks can claim that Byzantium was a Greek country and thus it existed before Bulgaria and Greece can now claim its lands. Similarly, any other European nation can find reasons to claim these or those lands based only on historical sentiments and the phrase "but those were our lands in year XXXX".
2. You can't claim lands only based on current population. This can gice "carte blanche" for ethnic cleansing all around the world. Any country will be tempted to conquer a province, kill the enemy population and move its own settlers to dominate in it.
Also, do you now that the census during the so called Carnegie poll in 1911 found that 55% of Kosovo population was Bulgarian? It is a strange fact even to present day Bulgarians. But many of the Bulgarians fled the region after Balkan wars 1912-13 and never returned. Serbians had a majority in Kosovo only for a brief period after WW1 and before Albanians outnumbered them in 1960s due to high rate of births and population growth.
Anyway, you can blame Tito that the present day Krajna and Republika Srpska in Bosna were not included in Serbia during Yugoslavia. You can blame Milosevic that he abolished Kosovo autonomy but never created autonomy for Serbs in Croatia and Bosna. What is the fault of USA that the borders had been determined long before the war in 1998-99?
You CAN blame Croats for burning your village. But you can't blame Croats for having their borders determined in ex-Yugoslavia.

Hey, friends, sorry for this loooooong post. I hope you did not fall asleep while reading it.

And I'll repeat again and again, until "Carthago is burned" (check the legend about this famous Roman senator): "The world is a pub. Let's sit around one table". Peace to all. And let's enjoy football. I already told you why. If we are now in a hell on the Balkans, we won't go out of it, if we just stand and shout at each other.

Author: cosmin_ultrasteaua
Date: 22-10-2007, 12:19
Edited by: cosmin_ultrasteaua
at: 22-10-2007, 12:19

cska, Wallachia? I know it was part of the First Bulgarian Empire but there was never bulgarian population living nord of the Danube. From what history I know (and I might be wrong) the Romanian people and language was created south of the Danube by the Roman settles there and the thracic people living there. The language was a vulgar latin (hence our language is the closes to latin bar italy) spoke by the people there. When the slavs got throu the Bizantin Empire and settled in the Balkan peninsula some of the people moved north of the Danube.

Sorry about the off-topic.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Osiris Date: 22-10-2007, 14:33	Thanks to Cska for very interesting posts and historical facts. Thanks for Bert for not deleeting this off-top.

Author: Sivivatu
Date: 22-10-2007, 14:59

Romanians inhabiting Romania today are not the only ones using this neo-Latin language. Romanians also reside beyond the borders of Romania.

Romanian census counted 19,003,511 Rumanians within Romania; 2,525,687 in Moldavia and also smaller entities in former Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Hungary.

An estimated 1,200,000 Rumanians lived in the diaspora prior to World War II - mostly in the Americas and in Australia, now the number has increased

in addition to Rumanians who live outside Romania, national entities can be found in several areas of the Balkan Peninsula which speak a language or languages similar to Rumanian.

Most significant among them are the Arumuns who live in Greece, Albania, Macedonia and Bulgaria.
Their estimated number of them is 600,000.

The Istroromanians are the smallest group of Rumanians, living on the Istrian Peninsula. Statistics from 1846 claim their number to be 6000; there were only 1200 -1500 by 1971.

Istroromanians call themselves Vlah or Vlas like romanians called themselves before 1800.Earlier they also used the name Rumeri or Rum�ri, another version of Romanus.To the north the �ejanians call themselves "cici" and the Croatians and Italians call them Istrorumanians: "ciribiri".

These languages have a common pre-history based on similarities of syntax, vocabulary, inflection and like absorption of new-word segments; they cannot be separated from each other.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Sivivatu Date: 22-10-2007, 15:59	P.S. Rumanians = Romanians

Author: Rohan
Date: 23-10-2007, 00:48

Osiris
Milosevic didn�t try to change the borders in former Yu, he tried to re-united Serbia, which was divided on 3 parts (Serbia and 2 provinces Vojvodina and Kosovo) by Croat Communist Tito 1974. By that Tito succeeded to minimize the role of Serbs in former Yu, suppress them with creation of anti-Serb communist authorities in both provinces. In Kosovo started the quite ethnic cleaning of Serbs, especially from biggest towns� During the first demonstrations of Kosovo Albanians in 80�s they request was �Kosovo as republic� , knowing that only republics in former Yu, and Yugoslav nations as well, have right to self determination in case of brake down of Yugoslavia. (Not ethnic minorities like Albanians were in former Yu) Croatian, and particularly Slovenian communist party, gave the strongest support to Albanian riots in 1988-1989, and also, on 8th Communist Party Congresses they left the session and announced the separation, accusing Milosevic policy to prevent the cleaning of Serbs from Kosovo province and Albanian �irredentist � movement.
Parallel with its influence on leaders of communist party of Slovenia and Croatia, foreign intelligence services were already install the system of media propaganda and political scandals which lead to increase of nationalistic feeling among the Yu nations (the trial of former Croat Nazi leader Andrija Artukovic in Zagreb, arrestments of Slovenian activists by side of JNA as espionage, decision of Serbs to dig the bones of those civilians who killed during ww2 and threw into the deep caves� until war stared.
Serbs in Croatia did not ask for change of borders, they were constitutional nation in Croatia according to the State law, but Croat secessionist move them out from Constitution, and one same time they repeat the symbols of Nazi poppet state from ww2� (that included all Bosnia, in its stomach). When war started, Milosevic policy was to prevent the early recognition of before secessionist republics find the compromise with their Serb minority, but Vatican, Germany and Austria, decided to recognize them. Milosevic was the first one who accepted communist party borders as international, between of new states,(EU Badinter Commission) so accusation of him is just western propaganda, in order of achieving the aim, future destruction of Yu, and Serbia as well. The only nation who couldn�t have any right to self-determination was Serbs, while even now, Kosovo Albanians, as former ethnical minority in YU, have it.
While im writing this, the EU Commander of Bosnia, started to imperil a set of new laws which lead to cancellation of Serb entity in Bosnia, Republic Srpska. (www.ohr.int )

CSKA, this is the same time answer to ur post, cause all the time u repeat the same, about peacfull division of states, those who never had ethnical problems, and those who were created on ethical base. Since creation 1918, internal ethical space of Yugoslavia was never solved�but agree that 1945 �nobody in Yugoslavia believed that communism will fall and Yugoslavia will break up�. Except of the foreign intelligence services, of some countries, and their strategic policy �what after Tito with Serbs?� In my posts I�m talking about double standards of foreign policy, and their changes of borders of Serbia, and creation of new borders between the Serbs, but not about claim of Serbs about some foreign territory. I only mentioned that Serb Krajina is destroyed by West in1995, because of Krajina wanted to exist, that West now destroying Republic Srpska, because Srpska claim to exist, and to establishing independent Kosovo from Serbia, because Kosovo Albanians want so (which will be the only change of borders in Balkan since ww2)�

Its only Pandora box that exists, such clear destruction of current Serb ethnical space in order to create new great forces in Balkan , great Croatia (that will swallow Bosnia and Moslem part of Serbia called sandzakm near Kosovo) and great Albania (+Kosovo, half of Macedonia and Montenegro). This plan will probably have some inter fazes, it will be executed for more years, but it�s on its way. Any government which oppose to this plan will be replaced by model EU, UK, US planers �> donations to non governmental organization, via Budapest�..>riots, demonstrations , protests, propaganda, students who wants democracy and cant sleep without it, bla, bla, bla�
But model seen so much in Georgia, Ukraine, Serbia, Belarus, Russia�

Author: putzeijs
Date: 23-10-2007, 13:47

to CSKA,

I think you should stay within topic.
If that's too dificult, stay with the history you know.

I'm really surprised that a man from the Balkan region knows as much about Belgium as you do, but you wouldn't pass an exam on Belgian history here in Belgium.

Let us talk about the topic.
What if Kosovo joins UEFA? They would get probably one team in qualification Champions league, 2 teams in Q1 UEFA cup, and it would not be a big difference.

Author: levski.bg
Date: 23-10-2007, 21:14
Edited by: levski.bg
at: 23-10-2007, 21:19

Yeah, we are very stupid in this region, knowing Belgium with their chocolate and beer, only

.

I think all the people in Ex Jugoslavia will be together again, like a part of EU. That is maybe a good model, for solving so much history fights and venom.

Our communist in here, was just like Slobo (with all my love and respect to all serbian people. I have even relatives here). They try to rename all muslim people in here, especially ...in the 80s. Btw, there is still people in here (mostly nacionalist and ex-communist), who find that..."RIGHT".

Rohan, btw, can you tell me, why most of my friends from Serbia love Tito and dislike Slobo ? And why JNA attack Slovenia ?

I really hope that, all people in Europe will be unite, with EU.
I dream for that day.

That day will make all territory claims in Europe, look small.

Just imagine that country ..from the Atlantic Ocean to Ural mountains

And why not a really good example for the future world. If all countries share the same values (or have respect to other people values), EU can be some model for the future world.

Author: Rohan
Date: 24-10-2007, 00:50

to levski...

"Our communist in here, was just like Slobo (with all my love and respect to all serbian people. I have even relatives here). They try to rename all muslim people in here, especially ...in the 80s. Btw, there is still people in here (mostly nacionalist and ex-communist), who find that..."RIGHT"."

Ok, that�s ur point of view, could be far from the reality, but if cnn, sky, bbc washing the brains, maybe Slobo was really what they say, like Sadam, Paul Pot, Hitler, Lukasenko, Putin...who ever they this dislike, the combination of disinformation and public opinion agencies always wins (something like marriage of Cristian Amanpour-cnn and James Rubin-white house spokesman). But u try to ask your relatives in Serbia ( u have them) and u may (intentionally) discover that only multicultural and multiethnic region in former Yu remained only in Milosevic Serbia (1991-95).With 1,200 000 millions of Serb refugees from Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia, at fall of 1995. Cant remember that any Moslem or catholic in Serbia become orthodox, but remember that 1941 in Croatia and Bosnia many Serb were converted into catholic by force (the official policy of Croat regime was 1/3 kill, 1/3 convert and 1/3 expel to Serbia can find that in historical facts). And during Turkey imperia, many Serbs were converted into Islam, especially in urban zones in Bosnia, in order to safe them from high taxes of local authorities.(historical facts)Like Sarajevo, slav Moslem were dominant in central urban zones, while Serbs majority were in suburbs.

"Rohan, btw, can you tell me, why most of my friends from Serbia love Tito and dislike Slobo ? And why JNA attack Slovenia?�

Both answers u can easily find on Google, but shortly, they just like Tito period remembering the peace and stability, economical improvement after destruction 1941, brotherhood and unity of Yu nations that his propaganda forces at that time. from that point of view it was great time (remember Lepa Brena?). But in political sense, which was hidden from ordinary people, he full fill the tasks concerning Serbia, and his policy toward Warsaw pact and Soviet. He carefully prepared the field for period after him, based on agreements with certain secret services. Forbidden return of Serb refugees to Italian occupation zone of Kosovo in 50's, division of Serbia on 3 parts in 1974, internal communists borders, prevention of punishment of Croatia for genocide 1941-1945, ethical cleaning of Kosovo Serbs in 70's from side of Albanian communists, killings of some Serb communist politicians...leaded to his official policy that Serbia is milk cow of Yugoslavia ("week Serbia strong Yugoslavia). When cow poured the milk in fall of 80's (Milosevic), other republics started with secession supported from West.
Even now in Serbia, former Serb communists from Tito period, or their relatives who lost great position on Serbia during Tito's era, are now the biggest "democrats", and with assistance from the West after fall of Milosevic, they again on power, but rule with same methods like in Tito's time.

JNA didn�t attack Slovenia, it was send from barrack in Slovenia to reopen borders toward Italy and Austria, from side of YU prime minister that time, Croat Ante Markovic. The border crossings took Slovenian territorial defense, armed with its light weapon but also with rocket missals and anti tank missals provided from German secret service (Klaus Kinkel knows better). Very short clashes with great loss of JNA conscripts (19 and 20yo boys from all parts of former Yu) and even some war crimes committed from territorial defense of Slovenia (now on court trial). After big protests of parents in Belgrade, it was decides that JNA leave Slovenia...

Author: Osiris
Date: 24-10-2007, 08:20

Rohan,

thanks a lot. I appriciate your information. From the Serb point of view it sounds right. The problem was to find peacefull solution to the Yu situation which satisfies most of the people from every part of former Yugoslavia.
In the beggining of October I had a short holiday in South Dalmatia with my Moscow friends also among them was a guy from Chorna Gora. I hope that good relations between Yu nations will be restored in short time. Maybe inside EU.

Author: cska
Date: 24-10-2007, 15:18

@cosmin
I know what you said is right. I gave just several examples. You know, nationalists in any country always dream for the lands in its most glorious period. Or, nationalists try to repel other nation's ambitions by reffraining: "Oh, but see that your land was ours once upon a time".
I think those "dreams" and "claims" are stupid nowadays with EU being here.
@putzeijs
I don't know much about Belgium. But for historians in Bulgaria, Belgium in 19th century was interesting, because the constitution and the state institutions in Bulgaria were formed after the Belgian model. And the constitution was the most liberal, progressive and civil rights oriented in Europe at the respective time (in Bulgaria - 1879).
What I wrote about Belgium was based on the impressions and oppinions of my Belgian friends. Sorry, but maybe they will not pass a history exam in Belgium. I will probably pass it, if you are not as strict to foreigners as to compatriots...

By the way, why did you chose a nick meaning "clean ice"? Just curious.
@Rohan and Osiris
I think Levskibg was right. We are going to live in a united Europe. That's why nationalism and borders no longer have the same meaning as before.
I think that living together with other nations is more enjoyable than putting nationalistic claims on them.

And now about football, because I think my appeals in the ends of my posts are aimed at bringing people back to football.
We are not the people, who will change the world or avenge the enemy nations for any war crimes at any moment in history. If some of us, like Rohan, have the awful experience of having our homes burned, by expressing hatred towards this or that nation we will not bring time back and we cannot change our past. Rohan will not get his house back, Serbs and Croats will not forget easily their hatred to each other.
That's why we must live with our present and look ahead into the future. As time goes by, people will forgive and forget their hatred to one another.

So, again - enjoy football (and all other sports you like).
Some day, with or without Kosovo in UEFA, we will live together in one country. And we'll be able to see our relatives in the neighboring lands even if today still there's a border in our way.

Author: dinamozagreb
Date: 24-10-2007, 19:55
Edited by: dinamozagreb
at: 24-10-2007, 19:58

"But u try to ask your relatives in Serbia ( u have them) and u may (intentionally) discover that only multicultural and multiethnic region in former Yu remained only in Milosevic Serbia (1991-95).With 1,200 000 millions of Serb refugees from Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia, at fall of 1995. "

Right, right...Serbs really proved their multi ethnic tendencies by creating ethnically clean Krajina and R.Srpska. What a joke.

"He carefully prepared the field for period after him, based on agreements with certain secret services. Forbidden return of Serb refugees to Italian occupation zone of Kosovo in 50's, division of Serbia on 3 parts in 1974, internal communists borders, prevention of punishment of Croatia for genocide 1941-1945"

Does that include Bleiburg massacre where tens of thousands of prisoners were killed? There are cca 500 mass graves in Slovenia and new ones are found practically every month...

"leaded to his official policy that Serbia is milk cow of Yugoslavia ("week Serbia strong Yugoslavia). When cow poured the milk in fall of 80's (Milosevic), other republics started with secession supported from West."

Serbia was milk cow of Yugoslavia...lol...so before 1990. all of the coastline and tourism was in Serbia? I didn't know that.

Author: Rohan
Date: 25-10-2007, 02:03

Dinamo...

"Right, right...Serbs really proved their multi ethnic tendencies by creating ethnically clean Krajina and R.Srpska. What a joke."

Ethnic map of Krajinaclearly shows that 87% there where Serbs, on over 17 300km2, inside of white line. Sure that Croats left Krajina, sure there where pressure to them to go, which Krajina government couldn�t prevent, but it was results of great number of refugees who enter to Krajina from big cityes of Croatia, like Zagreb, split,rijeka, zadar, karlovac, osijek...an those Serbs who left their ethnic zones which left outside of Krajina, like Gorski Kotar, West Slavonia (blue zones outside of Krajina). Thousands of them came into Krajina towns, desperate, without property and aid, they made pressures to Croats, but need to add that all Croat villages in Krajina were armed and equipped from weapon of Warsaw pact that transported to them from Hungary, and they attacked Krajina Serb territorial defense and JNA inside of Krajina.
In Krajina there where attack and even kill of Croat civilians in period 1991-1995, but it was attacks of individual personas and groups that government tried to prevent and punish the perpetrators. But killing of Serb civilians who left outside of Krajina were systematic and organized from the top of HDZ party and President Tudjman. (massacres in Sisak, Pakracka poljana, Gospic, Osijek...are now at international and Croatian courts). Krajina was UN protected zone, but in each Croat attack were massive civilian victims (Medak Pocket 1993, Ravni Kotari, Maslenica Bridge 1993, Western Slavonia 1995,Storm operation 1995),with massive shell attacks to Krajina cities and villages.

"Does that include Bleiburg massacre where tens of thousands of prisoners were killed? There are cca 500 mass graves in Slovenia and new ones are found practically every month..."

When u talk about Bleiberg, try to explain who where the killed ones, why they killed and by whom...to whom they escape and who return them to Yugoslavia. Where they Nazi executors of SS squads, Ustashe�s and Chetniks or just innocent victims of war?

"Serbia was milk cow of Yugoslavia...lol...so before 1990. all of the coastline and tourism was in Serbia? I didn't know that."

Serbia was dominant in food, energy, metallurgical mines, crude(Kosovo especially)...well, Tito communist borders allocated all coast to Croatia, for sure, but on that time tourism was not developed and productive in Yugoslav total production at all.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Krys Date: 25-10-2007, 02:22 Edited by: Krys at: 25-10-2007, 02:26	@ cska It's good to live together with other nations when u have EQUAL rights and EQUAL opinion attitude to u or so on (really but not on the paper).. Yes, it would be good.. But it will never be achieved...

Author: levski.bg
Date: 26-10-2007, 11:50
Edited by: levski.bg
at: 26-10-2007, 11:51

Many things who sound impossible in the past, came real with the time. 20 years ago, who believe that most of "eastern" countries will be a NATO members (and all the guys from EE countries will remember what was the definition for NATO in our countries, 20 years ago -> very bad, very evil, "imperialistic" kind of organisation.

Of course, the time where all the people will respect each other is far from the real at this time, and that still sound like some sort of utopia.

Rohan:

As far as I know yugoslavian history, I know that slovenian economy was their main engine. Of course, you and other people from there, must know better than me and I am very sorry, if I bother you with my opinion.

Actually, communist or not, I dont think, that Tito was so bad for Jugoslavia. Actually he is the main factor for many good things there in that period.

You can agree, that Jugoslavia was not actually a "eastern" country. You had some form of communism, but some form of the open market too + form of liberalism. For example, you was free to travel all around the world, but other people from EE was without that freedom.

20 years ago, definition for Jugoslavia was like "The most western from the eastern, and the most eastern from the western countries"

And I think that was because of Tito, who not follow Stalin path after WWII.

Btw, if I dont bother you, can you tell me, where you reading about demonocracy ?

I found that word very often in here, but in some nazi books. They mention demonocracy, but they mention also..hm...lets say extravagant things like "jewish conspiracy", "conspiracy against slavs or panslavism", "conspiracy against orthodox christianity", "muslimisation plans", "The Soros plan for "rommanisation of EE"".

Of course, you are maybe not from that kind of people. You sound like a inteligent and nice guy, and I wish you all my best.

Sorry if I bother you !

Pozdravi

Author: dinamozagreb
Date: 26-10-2007, 17:00
Edited by: dinamozagreb
at: 26-10-2007, 17:50

"Thousands of them came into Krajina towns, desperate, without property and aid, they made pressures to Croats, but need to add that all Croat villages in Krajina were armed and equipped from weapon of Warsaw pact that transported to them from Hungary, and they attacked Krajina Serb territorial defense and JNA inside of Krajina.
In Krajina there where attack and even kill of Croat civilians in period 1991-1995, but it was attacks of individual personas and groups that government tried to prevent and punish the perpetrators. "

There was something called "Serb territorial defense" in Croatia in Yugoslavia? There was something called "Serb territorial defense" in Croatia after '90? What Serb territory? That was all Croatia. Croats left? Yes. Under the knife and 6 ft under.

13 pct of Croat minority attacked JNA? JNA??? You are getting pathetic now. What is more plausible? That 87 pct of Serb majority were preparing for years with the help of Belgrade and army for separation by force ...or that 13 pct Croat minority was preparing to expel Serbs?

"Individual persons and groups"??? "Individual persons and groups" aka Cetnicks were all you had....

"(massacres in Sisak, Pakracka poljana, Gospic, Osijek...are now at international and Croatian courts). Krajina was UN protected zone, but in each Croat attack were massive civilian victims (Medak Pocket 1993, Ravni Kotari, Maslenica Bridge 1993, Western Slavonia 1995,Storm operation 1995),"

If you hadn't started to butcher your neighbors in 90-91 these acts of retaliation wouldn't have happened. You AS A SERB are complaining for massacres??? You invented "massacres massive civilian victims" and "ethnic cleansing" in 90-91. But then you killed by hundreds (inocent and prisoners...remember Vukovar?).

You wanted war...well you bloody well got it so stop wining. And when your leaders were dumb enough to refuse proposed autonomy in Z4 plan it was clear what will happen next. You (Serb leaders) were your own biggest enemy.

Give it up man...you're preaching to the quire ...

Author: Rohan
Date: 30-10-2007, 16:19

Sorry Dinamo...im talking about facts in Croatia, when replies bring the evidences, or links.
or answer..
1. Are Serbs in Croatia requested only autonomy within croatia, beginning of 1991?
2. Is current Cro president Mesic, in 1991 as member of HDZ nationalistic party stated in 1991 that Serbs did not bring Serbian land on their shoes when they arrived 800 years ago, and they should leave Croatia?
3. Is HDZ party performed a military parade on dinamo stadium in Zagreb 1991, preparing to war against Serbs?
4. Is 1991 Cro president Tudjman declared that he is happy that hes wife is not Serb or Jew?
5. Is he also stated that Croatia 1991 is successor of Nazi Croatia 1941?
6. Is almost all monuments of anti fascistic fight 1941-1945 are now destroyed in all Croatia?
7. Why on 1991 all Serbs escaped from biggest Croatian towns and where they now, who took their apartments now?
8. Why today , on 2007, one football club in dalmatia, Imotski, put Nazi emblems with U sign on they shirts, and why UEFA and CRO Football federation remain silent? Is any official sport club in Germany having Nazi swastika on their shirts? About what kind of demonocracy in Croatia towards Serbs u talking when only 50 years after genocide 1941, and 12 years after ethnical cleaning of croatia, u have Ustashas clubs?

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Rohan Date: 30-10-2007, 16:27	http://www.fotoimota.hr/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=4&pos=4 http://www.fotoimota.hr/gallery/displayimage.php?album=104&pos=0

Author: dinamozagreb
Date: 30-10-2007, 17:04

You are pathetic. And you are saying that you deal only with facts.

Mesic didn't say that Serbs should leave Croatia. He did say that Serbs did not bring Serbian land on their shoes when they arrived and by that he meant that they should incorporate themselves in Croatian population and not always try to dream of separation.

Military parade wasn't performed on Dinamo stadium but on Nk Zagreb stadium, factboy. By then Serbs had already started with road blocks, massacres of their neighbors and separation ideas. What should had we have done? Sit in front of Tv and watch it all or organize an army? You have your facts wrong so keep on surfing...I don't need to...I lived it.

So Tudjman said that he is happy that his wife is not Serb. Guess what. There was a war going on. Against Serbs. Do the math...

And he didn't say that Croatia 1991 is successor of Nazi Croatia 1941. He said that Croatia 1941 was a result of Croat hundreds year long urges for independence. And of course Serbs used that sentence and created a mith with their own meaning.

Many Serbs stayed in major towns and many of them joined Croatian army. You should ask the ones that left what their reasons were. Probably the same as one of Krajina Serbs. Never to live in free Croatia.

I wouldn't concern myself if a symbol of some minor club looks like something you want to see. I would however concern myself with a fact that a biggest party in Serbia is one that still has in its programme occupation of Croatian territory. And that Serbs in Bosnia now are using the same speeches as Milosevic did....

Keep on surfing...You don't know very much without PC near you do you? How old were you during this war? 10? That would explain a lot. So keep on surfing...

And here's one picture for you. Example of your "army" and your role models : http://www.safaric-safaric.si/1991-2006_Vukovar.jpg

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: abzpablo Date: 30-10-2007, 17:05	{i>as recent news follow it is said that usa france and {b>england{/b> are moving forward to recognising kosovo's independence within next spring. {/i> You mean the UK or just England?

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Munja Date: 01-11-2007, 15:15	@bert Maybe you should create "Forum 3", that would deal with politics

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Pedro Date: 02-11-2007, 09:29	If peoples can't live together and want to be free, independent and rule themselves, let them be free. The most important is peoples live in peace and harmony in the same continent and share values of liberty, democracy, rule of law, free enterprize, and a comum european citizenship.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: ignjat63 Date: 02-11-2007, 11:10	pedro, you mean they should be well adjusted to the contemporary valuesof western civilization?

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Pedro Date: 02-11-2007, 18:31	ignjat63 they should be well adjusted to the all times values of free men in free societies. I don't care if they are western or eastern values.

Author: levski.bg
Date: 03-11-2007, 02:16
Edited by: levski.bg
at: 03-11-2007, 02:33

Pedro, that sounds great, but unfortunately is very impossible in our region at the moment.

Maybe because of too many wars, or maybe because of history books propaganda who is very similar in every balkan country -> "we are perfect good and most of our neighbors is very bad people/nations".

If Kosovo want to be independent state, they must be, from liberal value point of you. But from the serbian point of view, that territory is serbian.

Actually, even from the western point of you, you can agree that, such case will not be easy for you to take. If you live in Lisbon, and hypothetically the city of Porto and the region, want to be independent, I doubt that many people in Lisbon, will take this decision very easy. Sorry for a bad example, maybe Katalunya/Spain case will be more correct one. Anyway, I know you understand me.

Like CSKA mention before, in our region there is not such case, like all the people, living in their own states. Actually, they are so much mixed (because of wars, mostly), so there is no way at all, for all the countries in here, happy with their current territory.

I really hope, that you are right, and all the countries in Europe will share the values you mention. Maybe like a part of EU, all the balkan states will cure alot of bad things from history.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Rohan Date: 05-11-2007, 14:58 Edited by: Rohan at: 05-11-2007, 14:59	Dinamoyagreb.... Your post explains that i was correct, try to check on google about Pakra�ka Poljana execution fileds, or killing of Zec family in Zagreb...all executions of serbs in 1991 was organized Croatian state, in order to have clean ethnic country, as it is now....its a big diiference with Krajina. Your post is a proof that all my questions where grounded...

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: dinamozagreb Date: 06-11-2007, 17:05	A Serb talking about execution fields after massacres in Vukovar, Manjaca camp, Ovcara camp, Srebrenica, Gorazde, Sarajevo, Dubrovnik ....? It's sad.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Pedro Date: 08-11-2007, 02:12	Please, lets not talk about massacres. All peoples have their own dark pages in history. Lets talk about build bridges to a peaceful future.

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: dax Date: 09-11-2007, 11:05	Hello everybody! I am a Partizan F.C. fun, and i think for Kosovo and Metohija Not joins UEFA,because they not have a standard,security firstall.Mokra Gora is a team from this teritory and they plays an a amater league in Serbia,and they plays and Lav Cup Srbije... P.S. Sorry for my bad English

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: ignjat63 Date: 09-11-2007, 16:35	"All peoples have their own dark pages in history. " By far, the smartest words in this topic. I cannot wait for this topic to be archieved.

Author: cska
Date: 09-11-2007, 19:45

Wow, Bert should now open a "Guinnes Book for World Records in Forum 1" and this thread will win the award of the longest and the most off-topic one. Also, maybe the award for most emotional and controversial one...
Rohan and Dinamo Zagreb,
in Bulgaria we have a proverb: "The dogs are barking, but the caravan is heading in its way..." For other nations - it's meaning is that people can be complaining, but things will still be happening irrespective to their complaints, because not the dogs run the caravan, but the men. And not the ordinary people run the world, but the "big sharks".
By exchanging passionate postings about Croat or Serb mischief you will not change the past and you will not change the future.
Kosovo questions will not be resolved by us in this thread, but by the "big dogs".
So, why don't we start talking about football?
Rohan and Dinamo, what can you tell if you meet a Croat woman married to a Serb man or vice-versa? Should they stop loving each other only because of the state doctrines and propaganda against each other?

Author: dinamozagreb
Date: 10-11-2007, 22:15

@Cska

"Psi laju, karavane prolaze."

Well, when I started responding to Rohan I didn't know he was "fallacies expert" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Logical_fallacies). In my posts I didn't concern myself with ideology much; I only tried to respond to some definitive nonsenses but I stopped taking this topic seriously long ago. I mean how do you respond to this:

"all Croat villages in Krajina were armed and equipped from weapon of Warsaw pact that transported to them from Hungary, and they attacked Krajina Serb territorial defense and JNA inside of Krajina."

You can laugh but I chose to respond too...my bad.

I have personally no problem with mixed marriages but with nonsenses like one above. And when I respond to them fallacy succeeds.

Author: Rohan
Date: 12-11-2007, 13:41

Bosnia Muslim, Croat soccer fans clash
Monday November 12, 7:38 AM

SARAJEVO, Nov 11 (Reuters) - Eight people, including seven policemen, were injured and cars were smashed when fans of rival soccer teams clashed in Bosnia's ethnically divided southern town of Mostar, the police said on Sunday.
The injuries occurred on Saturday in the western Croat part of the town, the night before a match between Croat club Zrinjski and Moslem club Velez, police spokesman Srecko Bosnjak said.

"One man sustained serious injuries to the head and seven policemen were injured while trying to separate the crowd who hurled rocks at each other and smashed two police vehicles," he said.

http://au.sports.yahoo.com/071111/3/1heky.html

Seems this is the same Zrinjski that resulted with Partizan belgrade expulsion, and also which fans attacked Israeli fans with democratic messages...now again...This club same area where is allowed to put nazzi (ustasha) simbols on shirts, and play with them...
http://www.fotoimota.hr/gallery/displayimage.php?album=10http://au.sports.yahoo
.com/071111/3/1heky.html4&pos=0

Re: What if Kosovo joins UEFA
Author: Rohan Date: 12-11-2007, 13:46	"You can laugh but I chose to respond too...my bad. I have personally no problem with mixed marriages but with nonsenses like one above. And when I respond to them fallacy succeeds." Sorry Dinamo, but some fact may hurt u.From court trials to croat generals and soldiers,and testimonies of covered vitnesses ull gona discover more and more...