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Author: UncleSam
Date: 23-06-2007, 19:14

A new format for the quarter-final draw of the Champions League, under which teams would be seeded according to the results of matches in the same campaign - from the group phase and the first knockout round - seems to be approved. A victory in any of these matches would be worth two points and a draw one point, with the four highest-scoring teams according to this principle become the four seeds. The format for the semi-finals would also be arranged to make it impossible for the best two teams of the season to meet each other before the final. In this way, each game would assume added importance.

Check 6.09, 6.10 and 8.07 in the following file
http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/19071.pdf

Author: eldaec
Date: 25-06-2007, 02:36

I've said this before, but anyway...

1) Giving out points based on individual matches in two legged ties is stupid. Nobody is playing to win individual matches, everyone is playing to win the tie.

2) Seeding in the QFs is pointless, there are only 8 teams, there will be at most 2 teams in the eight who are 'easy' draws, and at most 2 teams that are significantly ahead of the rest. The odds of these guys playing each other is small anyway.

Author: MartinW
Date: 25-06-2007, 04:37

So let's look for example at last year's CL QF teams. Counting the 8 matches played in group stage and last 16, then the coefficients would have been like this (tie-breaker is normal co-efficient):

12 Man Utd (w6, d0, l2) 100.950
12 Chelsea (w5, d2, l1) 79.950
11 Liverpool (w5, d1, l2) 105.950
11 Valencia (w4, d3, l1) 95.006
---------------------------------
11 Bayern M (w4, d3, l1) 80.960
10 AC Milan (w4, d2, l2) 129.020
10 PSV Eindhoven (w4, d2, l2) 81.640
10 AS Roma (w4, d2, l2) 76.020

To me it seems the teams will almost always be tied on the same number of points and usually need the main co-efficient to be used as tie-breaker.

Also I didn't see anything in section 8.07 of the article which confirms the teams ranked 1 and 2 will be kept apart in the semi-finals. Where did you see that?

Re: CL: New seeding system in QF and SF
Author: Ricardo Date: 25-06-2007, 08:34	As points are this close, then the points gathered in the quarterfinal can be of influence for who is 1st and 2nd after it, while the draw is then already made. Looking at these results above: it seems that this new rule is to avoid the Milan-Munchen match Milan was only number 6 but still won the cup - this is apparently to avoid such an 'easy' draw.

Re: CL: New seeding system in QF and SF
Author: bert.kassies Date: 25-06-2007, 09:53	So, for this new ranking we can just look at the page with Team Coefficients. Only in this case we don't need the coefficient (including 33% of the country coefficient), but just the column Points. Reordered, and only for the CL entrants.

Author: mauro
Date: 25-06-2007, 12:36
Edited by: mauro
at: 25-06-2007, 12:41

This means that there will be 4 sedeed and 4 unseeed teams for quarters. As the semifinal draw is made at the same time this is the reason that UEFA has written that the new rule has been made for both rounds. But it has not effectively any influence on the seeding in semifinal as 4 sedeed/unsedeed teams can qualify.

E.g.:

12 Man Utd (w6, d0, l2) 100.950 -> Team 1
12 Chelsea (w5, d2, l1) 79.950 -> Team 2
11 Liverpool (w5, d1, l2) 105.950 -> Team 3
11 Valencia (w4, d3, l1) 95.006 -> Team 4
---------------------------------
11 Bayern M (w4, d3, l1) 80.960 -> Team 5
10 AC Milan (w4, d2, l2) 129.020 -> Team 6
10 PSV Eindhoven (w4, d2, l2) 81.640 -> Team 7
10 AS Roma (w4, d2, l2) 76.020 -> Team 8

Pairing in quarterfinal:

Team 1 vs. Team 6 -> Winner A
Team 2 vs. Team 7 -> Winenr B
Team 3 vs. Team 5 -> Winner C
Team 4 vs. Team 8 -> Winner D

So as teh draw is made at the same time, all winners
can be sedeed or unsedeed:

Winner A vs. Winner B
Winner C vs. Winner D

Cheers

Re: CL: New seeding system in QF and SF
Author: putzeijs Date: 25-06-2007, 13:07	Mauro, I think you are wrong. With your pairings, and the obligation that the two top seeds can't play each other in semi-final, your semi final pairing is the onlu impossible. Theoretical winner A = team 1; winner B = team 2. So they can't meet each other in semifanal.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 25-06-2007, 13:21

"With your pairings, and the obligation that the two top seeds can't play each other in semi-final, your semi final pairing is the onlu impossible.

Theoretical winner A = team 1; winner B = team 2. So they can't meet each other in semifanal".

But I think the point is that there is no seeding for the semi-final draw.

The UEFA regs. - as usual - try to confuse things by talking about seeding clubs for the "quarter-final and semi-final draws" but then only talk about detailed procedures for the quarter-finals.

I suspect for the semi-finals they just put the balls numbered 1 to 4 in a hat & draw them. I might be wrong though...

Re: CL: New seeding system in QF and SF
Author: mauro Date: 25-06-2007, 13:49 Edited by: mauro at: 25-06-2007, 13:58	@Badgerboy You have it - this is what I mentioned... @Putzejis: "Theoretical winner A = team 1; winner B = team 2. So they can't meet each other in semifanal" Really???? And what should happen when Team 3 and Team 4 will also come into semifinal. As the sedeed are not allewed to play against each other we have an absolute showstopper and the CL will have 4 winners :-))))))))

Re: CL: New seeding system in QF and SF
Author: UncleSam Date: 25-06-2007, 13:56	The point with the new system is to avoid the two best teams to meet before the final.

Re: CL: New seeding system in QF and SF
Author: mauro Date: 25-06-2007, 13:59	UncleSam then it can be that Winner A will play against Winner C and Winenr B against Winner D. Then Team 1 will never play against Team 2.

Re: CL: New seeding system in QF and SF
Author: moro Date: 25-06-2007, 14:03 Edited by: moro at: 25-06-2007, 14:04	Will someone explain me between MU, Chelsea, Milan and Liverpool how can you choose best 1 and 2? It's allways subjectif.

Re: CL: New seeding system in QF and SF
Author: mauro Date: 25-06-2007, 14:04	when the points are equal the coefficients are taken into account...

Author: putzeijs
Date: 25-06-2007, 17:41

@Badger and Mauro,

In my interpretation we have a draw like in tennis.
There too they don't know the results of the games at the moment of the draw.
There too they draw a table where seed 1 can only meet seed 2 in the final. Just like "The format for the semi-finals would also be arranged to make it impossible for the best two teams of the season to meet each other before the final."
In tennis they first put 1-2 away in the extreme part of the table. Then they draw 3-4 to meet 1 or 2 in the semi-final. Then 5-8 to meet 1-4 in the quarter, ....... .
And then their first seed is eliminated in the first round, so they end up with an upper half of the draw worthless. But unlike UEFA they don't review the seeds. It is as if the unseed player takes the ranking of the eliminated seed.

So in my opinion UEFA is gooing to seed 1->8 after the 1/8 finals, and then make a draw like in tennis.

So if Seed 1 theoretical becomes winner A, and seed 2 becomes winner B, these teams can't meet in in semi-final. Regardless of the outcome of the 1/4final.

If this makes much difference to the actual procedure, I don't know. Perhaps a team that comfortable won the home game of the 1/8 final, will now do an effort to win the away game too. But I think most of the teas will follow Eldeac and settle for the tie.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 25-06-2007, 19:10

Putzeijs

You might be right - it's just not absolutely clear in the regulations whether they will do such a draw for the semi-finals or not. For the quarters it's clear how it works - the teams from 1-4 will be listed & the other four teams drawn randomly to see who will play them.

If the semi-finals are seeded as well I'm sure it will work exactly the same way - but I'm not yet convinced that's the case.

Funnily enough the last available UEFA direct indicated that the idea of seeding in the quarter-finals had been rejected by the Executive committee - though further consultation was to take place.

As I've suggested before UEFA could save a small fortune by abolishing the draws all together & having 1 v 8, 2 v 7 etc. - but I guess a lot of people in suits wouldn't like that - lots of lavish lunches missed.

As it stands I don't think having seeding or not for the quarters (or semis) will be massively important. All the teams that have reached that stage should be pretty good.

A couple of things that could be done to improve matters.

For the last 16 use the same format - rather than simply group winners are seeded. Usually this wont make a huge difference but last year - for example - Milan would've been unseeded in the last 16 because they had only 7 points. At this stage it is definitely worth being seeded - so tweaking the rules slightly would surely have stopped Milan paying hardly any attention to their last two games. Whether the incentive of being seeded in the quarter-finals will do this anyway is perhaps debatable?

Secondly - and especially for the last 16 - after points goals scored should be used to split teams rather than coefficients - thus encouraging attacking football.

Author: putzeijs
Date: 26-06-2007, 13:19

Badgerboy,

We've discussed this drawing systhem in an other topic recently.

-I agree with you on the small difference this change will have.
-I agree that this system could be introduced from the 1/8 final, and with goal difference, rather than rankings.

I agree that UEFA could safe money when they made one draw in june in stead of one every month. But this 'tennis' systhem will not work in the actual EUFA habit were entering (nationallity) and seeding (clubranking) is not based on the same criteria.
It could work in a 3 draws (qualification (summer) / groups (autum) / KO (spring)) systhem.

I don't like the 1-64, 2-63 automatic system. I think there must be a little passion in every draw. So I would prefer only the top 30% to be seeded.