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Author: JUGGERNAUT
Date: 18-05-2007, 11:46

I thought the Scottish League were stupid when they devised there split in the SPL but I see I might have to give that accolade to the Dutch League.

Am I correct in saying that the team finishing 3rd in the Dutch League (AZ) will not get a place in Europe if they lose the playoff final. Looking at Bert's site I see that Utrecht & Groningen are fighting for the last UC spot.

What a stupid system. I see also that the teams that lost in the playoffs are guaranteed Europe (Herenveen & Twente), so by winning against these teams to reach the final they get punished by not being in EUROPE at all.

You have taken over from Scotland for introducing the most unfair & stupid system in football.

Re: Dutch Play Offs
Author: Kaiser Date: 18-05-2007, 11:53	If I got your point the system almost this: 1 - CL 2 - CL 3 - out 4 - out 5 - out 6 - UC 7 - UC 8 - UC ... Really?!

Re: Dutch Play Offs
Author: moro Date: 18-05-2007, 11:53 Edited by: moro at: 18-05-2007, 11:54	Think twice. In true life it's gonna be: PSV + Ajax(or AZ) in CL AZ + Heerenveen + Twente + Groningen in Uefa Cup AZ Alkmaar wion twice the Uefa Cup spot by beeing finalist of cup against a team playing CL, and by losing the play-off for CL. The only think unfair in their play-off is that teams losing the play off for Uefa (Roda, Utrecht and Feyenoord) cant go in Intertoto.

Re: Dutch Play Offs
Author: bert.kassies Date: 18-05-2007, 12:25	And even that last one is not completely unfair: The loser of the playoff for the last UEFA Cup spot (Utrecht or Groningen) has another playoff for the Intertoto spot against the winner of Vitesse against NEC. In the Netherlands we fight for the Intertoto spot. In Scotland they don't want the Intertoto spot at all. I don't know which one is more unfair

Author: badgerboy
Date: 18-05-2007, 12:25

"The only think unfair in their play-off is that teams losing the play off for Uefa (Roda, Utrecht and Feyenoord) cant go in Intertoto"

Actually that's not right either. Roda & Feyenoord miss out entirely - which is possibly a bit of an injustice. But the loser of Groningen v Utrecht still gets to play the winner of the IT play-off (Vitesse v NEC?) to decide who actually goes to the Intertoto.

At least I think that's the case.

Re: Dutch Play Offs
Author: bert.kassies Date: 18-05-2007, 12:27	sorry badgerboy, our posts just crossed each other.

Re: Dutch Play Offs
Author: moro Date: 18-05-2007, 12:31	to born a monster... I didnt know they'll play play-offs all along the summer for that IT spot. So let's say it's less unfair. From a distance, I like those play-offs. In Romania it would be wellcome, because that's how teams can measure forces against each-others without any possible arrangements. Only that i'd put 2 to play against 3 "best of 5 games", instead playing 2vs5 and 3vs4, than 2vs3.

Re: Dutch Play Offs
Author: badgerboy Date: 18-05-2007, 12:31	Bert - no problem. You beat me by seconds. And at least now I know my post was 100% right - it's probably a sad state of affairs that I can now explain the Dutch league play-offs from memory!

Author: badgerboy
Date: 18-05-2007, 12:39

"From a distance, I like those play-offs. In Romania it would be wellcome, because that's how teams can measure forces against each-others without any possible arrangements. Only that i'd put 2 to play against 3 "best of 5 games", instead playing 2vs5 and 3vs4, than 2vs3"

I think the play-offs seemed to work great in Holland this year because the title battle was so close. And also now the best two teams (with nothing substantial between them in the league) are contesting the final. Last year the play-offs themselves may have been exciting but a large part of the league season was dead because PSV had the title won & the other top teams were all comfortably in the play-offs.

Personally, I like the idea of the final league position being more important. Rather than two-legged play-offs with semi-finals as you have now instead you have 4th v 5th (4th team has home advantage), the winner of this game then has to play the 3rd team & finally the winner of that plays the 2nd. Or maybe the "home advantage" bit isn't so important - still two legs. But then if you're 4th or 5th you have to play six games to reach the CL & win three "ties" - if you're second you play just two matches.

Re: Dutch Play Offs
Author: moro Date: 18-05-2007, 13:03 Edited by: moro at: 18-05-2007, 13:03	Maybe some rules like "if difference between 2 and 3 is bigger than 4 points, no play-off", 5vs 6, etc.

Re: Dutch Play Offs
Author: azfanforever Date: 18-05-2007, 14:49	just one easy answer, get rid of them :D...

Author: Overgame
Date: 18-05-2007, 17:08

Nod, get rid of them. I don't like to see a full season played in 2-4 games, even more when you're out against a team who hasn't been really good. I like a 2-leg games as tie-breaker (goal average isn't really something reliable).

Let's take an extreme exemple, and see what could happen.

1st : CL
2nd : same points than the first, but lost the P-O : UC.
3rd : UC
4th : UC
5th : CL
6th : same points than the 5th, but lost the P-O : nothing.
7th : nothing
8th : nothing
9th : UC
10th : same points than the 9th, but lost the P-O : nothing.
11st : nothing
12nd : nothing
13rd : IT
14th : same points than the 13rd : nothing
15th : nothing
16th : same points than the 15th, but lost the P-O : relegated.
17th : not relegated.
18th : relegated.

1st in CL, 2nd, 3rd and 4th in Uc when the 5th is playing the CL, 6th, 7th, 8th out when the 9rd is playing the UC and the 13rd is playing the ITC. 16th is relegated when the 17th could stay in the 1st division.

Re: Dutch Play Offs
Author: Maluyaca Date: 18-05-2007, 17:18	http://www.eredivisie.nl/files/images/schema_1000.gif

Re: Dutch Play Offs
Author: azfanforever Date: 18-05-2007, 17:53	you say second gets uefa as doom scenario, doom scenario is getting nothing. only because az and ajax played cup final, 5th place got secured uefa cup spot. but when rkc or nac made it to the final, ajax or az could loose battle against winner 6-9, and loose everything.

Re: Dutch Play Offs
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 18-05-2007, 19:54	Well, 2nd (and 3rd-5th) always have Intertoto for certain with this play-offs, but the most extreme situation can be like this: -Cupwinner not in top 5 -CL: 1st and 5th UEFA-cup: 3rd, 4th, 9th and Cupwinner Intertoto: 2nd

Re: Dutch Play Offs
Author: dinamo_fan_4_ever Date: 18-05-2007, 20:17	it should be similary to italy serieB. if 2nd place has more then 5 pts than 3rd place thay qualify directly, if 3rd place has more than 5 pts than 4th place 4th place doesnt play playoff same with the other spots. ajax can get 25 pts over herenveen and wih 1-1 and 0-0 they go in uefa

Author: giulio
Date: 18-05-2007, 21:11

Actually there's a problem with Italian Serie B playoff rules.

1st and 2nd go directly to Serie A.

3rd goes directly to Serie A if it has >= 10 pts over 4th.

If 3rd has { 10 pts over 4th, then 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th go to playoffs and one of them will get Serie A.

So, suppose 3rd has 9 pts over 4th and 5th has to play against 4th, then 5th will have interest in losing so as to allow 4th to remain at { 10 pts from 3rd, and so allowing itself (the 5th) to play playoffs (hope this is clear).

Re: Dutch Play Offs
Author: moro Date: 18-05-2007, 21:54	Giulio, malaria's back in Italy? Or it's just at FIGC and cause them fiever?

Re: Dutch Play Offs
Author: Floridian Date: 20-05-2007, 15:47 Edited by: Floridian at: 20-05-2007, 16:15	Groningen secured UEFA cup spot by beating Utrecht 2-1 in the second match as well. Utrecht will now play-off with Vitesse for the UIC spot. AZ won 2-1 first leg CL playoff final vs. Ajax. Return leg is on May 27.

Re: Dutch Play Offs
Author: doremi Date: 20-05-2007, 16:48	play-off? unfair.. if u finished 2nd in the league, u should be in CL next season.. p/s:can't imagine the 5th place team qualify for CL through the play-off..

Re: Dutch Play Offs
Author: Joost Date: 20-05-2007, 17:20	Actually, last year the final for the CL spot was between numbers 4 and 5. In the end the number 4, Ajax won it.

Re: Dutch Play Offs
Author: Ricardo Date: 21-05-2007, 11:31	This year: 1 CL-GS 2 or 3 CL-Q3 2 or3 and 4+5 UefaCup nr 6 and 7 got nothing 8 got UefaCup 9 and 12 fight for the Intertoto spot

Author: JUGGERNAUT
Date: 21-05-2007, 11:38

The Reason I brought this subject up was that on Bert's qualification page it does not have a spot for AZ if they lose the playoff. Holland get 3 uefa spots through the league + 1 spot through the cup. In the Cup spot is pencilled in for Ajax. Two spots have been filled with Twente & Herenveen, Then 1 playoff place between Groningen & Utrecht.

So I cannot see a place for AZ if they lose the playoff. Maybe Bert can offer some explanation for this?.

Re: Dutch Play Offs
Author: Floridian Date: 21-05-2007, 11:53	JUGGERNAUT, If AZ lose the CL play-off to Ajax, cup winner spot in UEFA cup will not be used (since Ajax will play in CL). So this spot will be used by AZ, wich will enter UC R1.