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Author: marathon
Date: 04-05-2007, 02:02
| i would like to know in case Espanyol wins the trophy Uefa Cup... that would mean... they end the current campaign without a defeat. if i am not wrong ... since the round 1... they scored ... 12 victories( including the possible win in the final) and 2 draws... does that make some kind of a record in the Uefa Cup history? i remember similar topics in the past... |
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Author: AlanK
Date: 04-05-2007, 16:28
| I don't know about records, but I do know that Espanyol is 11-3-0; the three ties (draws) have been 2-2 at Artmedia Bratislava, 0-0 at Maccabi Haifa, and 0-0 at Benfica.
Congratulations to Espanyol on a wonderful European campaign! Congratulations to Coro on his incredibly important goals during the last year. The final in Glasgow should be great. |
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Author: azfanforever
Date: 05-05-2007, 10:45
Edited by: azfanforever
at: 05-05-2007, 10:46 | is the coefficient of espanyol this year, the highest ever recorded? in the last five years i could only find barca last year, who scored 0,1 less or something. |
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Author: moro
Date: 05-05-2007, 11:48
| And here we go, another team almost in top 20 after playing one year in Europe. Spanish and english teams are so happy with that 33% part coming from country coefficient... |
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Author: larmen
Date: 05-05-2007, 12:14
| And the problem is?
(except eliminating Werder Bremen) |
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Author: moro
Date: 05-05-2007, 12:39
| and except Sevilla, Newcastle, Parma, Auxerre and Stuttgart.
But who said there was a problem? |
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Author: panda
Date: 05-05-2007, 12:57
| I agree that there is an issue over the country co-efficient that is much debated.
But surely Espanyol have played 2 years in Europe in the last 5, Seville 3, Newcastle 4 and so on. Newcastle, as everyone says, are overvalued, but I would not necessarily say Sevilla is. You could also argue that top-league teams that don't play in Europe very often are UNDer-valued (as Spurs when they started this year) |
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Author: moro
Date: 05-05-2007, 13:21
Edited by: moro
at: 05-05-2007, 13:22 | Let's put in team ranking 16.66% of their budget, this way Spurs get some more. |
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Author: panda
Date: 05-05-2007, 13:36
Edited by: panda
at: 05-05-2007, 13:37 | I don't have any axe to grind, moro, so you don't need to be sarcastic; I'm interested in the 'best' system of arriving at co-efficients. But, as has often been discussed, you kind of have a choice - if you have NO country co-efficient element, the teams that play in europe year after year of course benefit; if you have a country element, the teams from countries with stronger leagues benefit. I'm sure both systems produce anomalies; all I'm saying is that neither system is perfect.
for example, Spurs were Pot 5 for the UC Gs; it certainly did not do them any harm. |
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Author: keeganvogts
Date: 05-05-2007, 13:58
| @marathon wrote: does that make some kind of a record in the Uefa Cup history?
Yes, it is a record. Most wins in a UC season: Valencia 2003/04 10-2-1
Most goals shot by a winner: Valencia 1961/62 33:13
Best goal difference by a winner: Juventus 1992/93 31:6 +25
Most wins without a loss: IFK Goteborg 1981/82 9-3-0
Most goals without a loss: Valencia 1961/62 33:13
Best goal difference without a loss: Tottenham Hotspur 1971/72 30:6 +24
Most wins, most goals and best goal difference without winning the cup is a three in one record: Monchengladbach 1992/73 10-1-1 36:12 +24
Last but not least: No loss, no cup: Juventus 1970/71 8-4-0 28:8 +20 |
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Author: moro
Date: 05-05-2007, 14:08
Edited by: moro
at: 05-05-2007, 14:16 | I agree Panda.
The problem is taht a team like Spurs you cant know when are they gonna be competitive. Also good for Espanol. But on the other hand Sevilla, Werder and others looks OK. There's no perfect system. And I'm OK with the current one. Just made an observation.however, for some teams it would not harm to start beeing unseeded (just like Tottenham did, same position as West Ham). We coud pass to a 20-25% part from country coef in team coef, I think. |
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Author: badgerboy
Date: 05-05-2007, 14:15
| I would've thought someone (even me?) would've come up with these stats befoe but if I/they have I've forgotten already.
Meaninglessness of pots in UEFA Cup?
Last 32 this year:
Pot 1 7/8 (Auxerre out)
Pot 2 5/8 (Brugge, Basle, Sparta out)
Pot 3 1/8(!) (Espanyol the only success - & obviously quite a big one!). Besiktas, Palermo, Heerenveen, Partizan, Rapid, Wisla & Slovan Liberec were all seeded to progress
So only just over half (13/24) the teams that made it to the last 32 were seeded to do so.
Pot 4 6/8. "Overachieving" were: Fenerbahce, Hapoel Tel-Aviv, Osasuna, Blackburn, Dinamo Bucharest & Livorno.
Pot 5 5/8. Tottenham, Maccabi Haifa, Sporting Braga, Nancy & Zulte Waregem all defied that pesky 5th pot. All these Pot 5 teams were also unseeded in UEFA R1. |
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Author: AlanK
Date: 05-05-2007, 15:43
| I'm bothered by the concept of "competitive" as mentioned here by moro. The idea seems to be that you can't tell whether a team was "competitive" until the season is over or the team as been eliminated--ie after the fact. So Osasuna wasn't "competitive" in 2005-2006 because Rennes knocked them out in the first round in September, but they were "competitive" this year because Trabzonspor didn't score a late goal in the first round, and, of course, Osasuna made it to the semis. So by definition, either Nancy or Schalke was not "competitive" since one of the two had to be eliminated in September since they played each other. Frankly, I've considered Real Madrid (my team for 40 years plus) not to be "competitive" the last three years, because BASED ON CURRENT FORM they had no chance to win the CL. So my criterion for "competitiveness" is "current form": a team can be competitive at one point in a season, and not at another point: witness Bayer Leverkusen, which played like cannnon fodder in the fall, suddenly did great to reach the QF, and then got crushed by Osasuna, which incidentally also started like cannon fodder: eliminated from the CL by Hamburgo, barely made it to the group stage, held to a tie in the Reyno de Navarra by Heerenveen, and thoroughly beaten by Lens (3-1). But Osasuna was surely "competitive" up to the last minute of the semis against Sevilla. So you don't know whether you were "competitive" or not until you're just plain dead, right? |
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Author: panda
Date: 05-05-2007, 20:09
| There's no way, again as has been mentioned on old topics, of dealing with a) whether a team is in good form or not, b) what happens between the seasons. West Ham is a good example of a team that was playing strongly by the end of last season, but was terrible for most of this season. So it was not surprising they scored 0 co-eff points.
@badgerboy
Yes- good to see those stats again, showing that the Pots in UC are pretty random as to results. Maybe this is unsurprising, though. In CL a lot of teams are there often, so whether for good reasons or bad (e.g. big budgets, big TV rights), the teams with very big co-effs tend to be more powerful. In UC, many teams have less experience, and there are fewer amazingly good teams, therefore local or temporary variables have a much bigger influence.
The new IT format probably has an effect too. It's more attractive for clubs like Newcastle or Blackburn to apply for that to carry on European participation (e.g. Portsmouth, Reading, smaller clubs trying to build, did not apply) now; this year, Newcastle benefited greatly from being able to sneak into Europe through the IT. |
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Author: moro
Date: 05-05-2007, 20:26
| AlanK
In my opinion,wether a team was competitive or not we can find out looking at the championship ranking, because is a long-term competition. So Osasuna, using that criteria, was not very much competitive. Just like Middlesboro last year. |
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Author: panda
Date: 05-05-2007, 20:36
| @moro
OK, good point, but you also get the situation (like Liverpool now in the CL and EPL, but Boro last year was a better example) where the team kind of gives up in the league if it is doing well somewhere else, and vice versa.
At a certain point, when you get to the later stages of the cup, the team can think 'This is going to be the major achievement of the season, and so long as we avoid relegation from the first tier / EPL / whatever, it's still OK.' |
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Author: moro
Date: 05-05-2007, 21:00
| I dont think anyone gives up in any competition. This is only an excuse when you get bad results in one competition and you save the season in the other. I've never seen Liverpool giving up any match this season,they simply lost some of them.
I remember we said here at the beginning of the season that Sevilla, Werder, Tottenham or other teams would give up Uefa Cup if they're involved in the fight for a CL spot or the title... we were all wrong. |
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Author: Kaiser
Date: 05-05-2007, 23:33
| Well, it's very good to see domestic cups' winners in final of the UEFA Cup. Years by years there were cup winners really competing with others hardly ever. Good luck to Espanyol. |
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Author: badgerboy
Date: 06-05-2007, 12:35
| "I've never seen Liverpool giving up any match this season,they simply lost some of them".
Yesterday against Fulham, Liverpool made nine changes to the side that played in the CL in midweek. Last week v Portsmouth was something similar - a few less I think. I'm not saying the players on the pitch didn't all give 100% but assuming their "best" team played in midweek this is hardly a sign of giving their all in the league.
Thanks to this - or at least greatly helped by this - Fulham are now virtually safe from relegation. Wigan, Sheffield United, Fulham & Charlton are talking about sueing the FA because they didn't deduct points from West Ham over the Tevez/Mascherano affair. Frankly, it's a shame that whoever gets relegated can't sue Liverpool for some of their CL wedge due to lack of respect for the other clubs in the Premier League. |
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Author: panda
Date: 06-05-2007, 13:07
| I have to defend not just Liverpool here but any team in that sort of situation. You can't predict who you draw when in the league, and you can't change your unconscious mental attitude. You can't make that game matter in the same way to the players when they are thinking about Athens. If it had been id-season and they lost after a midweek euro match, you'd just say 'effect of having another game so soon, like a hangover.' Look at man C v man U- an important game for man U of course, but both sides were just awful.
You can say Liverpool played with just as little respect in the opening 1-1 draw with sheffield United (that point might be important in keeping Sheffield up).
I wanted them and wigan to stay up, but irrespective of the Tevez fiasco, I think wigan have to be responsible for the fact their recent performances are rubbish.
This also shows the limits of coefficients - you can use them to set up the matches, but too many other things are going on that you can...predict the results. |
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Author: badgerboy
Date: 06-05-2007, 13:43
| Panda
All you say is true. But "nine changes" is the key bit to me.
Presumably Liverpool didn't play their "reserves" on the first day against Sheffield United? Or in other matches following European games?
Had they played the likes of Carragher, Gerrard, Finnan & Mascherano & those players not performed because they were "tired" etc. then fair enough. And of course some "squad rotation" is normal. But nine?
"Our season is not over. We want to finish third, show respect to the fans that come every week and we have a responsibility to the other teams too to put on performances."
Arsene Wenger after last week's game against Fulham. Rafa - look & learn please. |
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