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Author: nelster
Date: 05-04-2007, 09:44

William Gailard is today quoted on bbc that they have no control over the behaviour of police in UEFA Matches.

In other words UEFA do not care that you spend a few hundred pounds following your club to a foreign country only to be beaten for the sole purpose of being (in most cases) British

I would urge all fans of British clubs to refuse to travel to away games as our lives are very much at risk.

I've had it with people telling me that Rangers deserve all they get because they sing a few songs, and I'm sure the same people will be saying that Man Utd deserved what happened to them last night (or do they just have a pathological hatred of Rangers).

Look closely at the guy with the blood spattered head, notice the camera hanging roung his neck, he's a tourist, he's a football fan, he's not a hooligan. You can bet your life he wouldn't be covered in blood if he was a Japanese tourist with a camera hanging round his neck.

I said after Man Utd went to Lens that it was time that UEFA introduced a proper T.E.A.M style organisation to oversee stadium security - they are very keen to make life as comofrtable as possible for VIPs, but without the real fans they have NO competition.

Please discuss ...

Author: slanders
Date: 05-04-2007, 10:55

Totally agree with you nelster. You notice there's no families going to matches in Italy because no one would risk their children. Contrast that to the UK and other countries where there's a safe environment to enjoy a football match. The police are totally heavy handed giving beatings out to British supporters yet doing nothing about their own 'fans' who are throwing missiles and the like. The provocation we receive when going to these matches is not worth it and if UEFA can't protect us we shouldn't go which is a shame, but there it is.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 05-04-2007, 10:57

It will be interesting to see what UEFA's investigation into last night's incidents show.

But on the surface I have slightly less sympathy with the Man U. fans last night than I did in Lens.

Yes, I have no doubt that there was provocation from the Roma fans - I was listening to Five Live last night & they had a reporter from a local Manchester paper on the 'phone at half-time. He said a Roma fan walked up to him & punched him in the face somewhere near the entry to the stadium. I also have no doubt that the Italian riot police's tactics are very heavy-handed & indiscriminate (the heavy-handed bit being fine by me if it was only aimed at the troublemakers rather than random people who happen to be in the way).

But it's important to say that the Man U. fans aren't small children. "They started it" or "We were provoked" aren't good enough excuses in my opinion. And whoever started the throwing of objects in the stadium there's no doubt some United fans were involved - & for this I find no excuse.

As for those not involved in the trouble but caught in the crossfire. It's extremely unfortunate (and something UEFA seriously have to look at in terms of the image of their competitions & the sorts of fans they want at the stadiums) but I can only conclude that nelster's general point is right. It might be wise not to go. Of course the result of this - all "decent fans" staying away for their own safety & leaving the field open for the "thugs" who quite like the idea of a good scrap is a step back to the dark ages of English football. UEFA will want to prevent this.

I also have to make one other point about the "camera-wielding tourist" with blood on his face that nelster mentions. Of course this "indiscriminate beating" of fans by police is completely wrong. But I would hope the guy in the crowd had some idea that there was a risk - the reputation of both Roma fans & Italian police is hardly a secret after all. If you're a tourist in a strange city I find it's wise to know the risks - which streets to avoid at night, that it's safer to go the long way round rather than walking through the park after dark etc. Of course you might well choose to "live dangerously" & ignore the risk. I guess the same is true for attending European football matches - especially somewhere like Italy.

Author: apw
Date: 05-04-2007, 11:48
Edited by: apw
at: 05-04-2007, 11:51

I agree with all the above comments, however i am afraid that there could possibly be a negative response from many posters here who still believe or like to portray that Hooliganism is a English / British problem and that trouble only occurs when we export it.
The majority know this is not the case although i don't class UEFA in that as clowns like " Gallaird " and his cronies are still itching to throw mud in the direction of British clubs and his comments are often cleverly disguised.

What also concerns me is comments on a thread like this get sidetracked, like the " Man utd expelled thread " and the " Rangers ban thread " one too.

I am a Chelsea fan and i also have sympathies with Celtic but i also believe in fairness and honesty and both those threads were polluted with biased comments based on hatred of the 2 teams mentioned.
No fan going to any game anywhere deserves to beaten senseless by the so called authorities because of the songs they sing, the colours they wear, the team they support or their nationality.
Sadly Police forces in many countries don't believe this to be the case.
I would be equally disgusted if Valencia, Roma or PSV received similiar treatment in England but it won't happen, which will save M.Gallaird making any further comment about the policing of Stadia.

I admit that many Man Utd fans went to Rome looking for trouble and i have little sympathy with those fans who sought out trouble however you cannot tar all with the same brush and like Badgerboy said it is a slightly different situation to the one in Lens, which UEFA still found an excuse to fine them for.

Also regarding the Mayor of Rome claiming that Manchester utd inflamed the situation by advising fans of the risks in Rome, this is no different to Foreign tourist boards advising tourists not to stray into certain parts of Major cities etc.
In 2010 should fans be advised of where not to stray in South Africa, not according to the mayor of Rome's logic and let's not forget that South Africa as well as being a beautiful country has one the highest crime rates in the world.

I will follow this thread intensely now and brace myself for the inevitable non objective backlash and the examples of How British ( sorry nelster i say British not English as it includes Rangers) fans are to blame and how everything would be rosy in Lens, Pamplona, Rome etc if British fans had stayed at home.

All this happens on a continent which our Government wants us to share an armed force, central bank, currency, Central taxation etc etc.

Re: Stadium Security - Worrying statement from UEFA
Author: feelesh Date: 05-04-2007, 11:54	APW, you are a Chelsea fan. How on earth can you ask for objectivity when you state "I admit that many Man Utd fans went to Rome looking for trouble and i have little sympathy with them"? I have to ask on what grounds you "admit" the United fans were looking for trouble?

Author: eldaec
Date: 05-04-2007, 11:58

UEFA are right to play this carefully.

They can only influence the Italian authorities; inadequate (or even alledgedly criminal) policing isn't something you can really blame Roma for specifically. So the only possible relevant sanction would be against Italy as a whole, while Italian authorities fix the apparent problem with policing.

Coming out on day one and being belligerent wouldn't help that happen. UEFA need to give the Italian government room to manueveur. They need to try to get the local authorities to take a lead investigating the police, as UEFA can only realistically either support local investigations or do something as drastic as closing all Italian stadia during UEFA matches (since if the police aren't adequate in rome, why would they be adequate elsewhere?). The latter would be politically expolsive and without local goverment support might well cause a much bigger crisis.

All this is assuming that the situation last night was as starightforward as it looked on television of course, and it is always hard to be sure about that.

Author: nelster
Date: 05-04-2007, 14:09

It amazes me that the likes of Hearts in Scotland are told that their excellent stadium is not fit for UEFA matches, yet you have clubs such as Osasuna / Villarreal that have no infrastructure but are allowed to continue muddling their way through life.

There should be some kind of fan safety initiative implemented now! Each match should have a team of UEFA Safety officers who are responsible for ensuring safe passage for all.

UEFA are not taking this matter seriously at all.

Wait and see what happens to Spurs this evening, a reasonably big British club that hasn't had a major trip for years, all the old timers will be there, they'll all be up for supporting their team, the Spaniards won't be slow in getting their retalliation in first.

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 05-04-2007, 14:32

it is indeed very worrying to see how every single local police can fail in their mission when British fans are travelling abroad.

Otherwise, just a comment about the very first sentence of the topic
William Gailard is today quoted on bbc that they have no control over the behaviour of police in UEFA Matches.

sorry to disagree with you guys, but I have to confess that I am happy that police is under control of elected governments rather than under control of a bunch of technocrats coming from nowhere and whose only mission is to maximise TV rights.

Re: Stadium Security - Worrying statement from UEFA
Author: larmen Date: 05-04-2007, 14:40	I have the feeling that ManU becomes a bit of an easy victiom. It always happens to them, so it must be their fault. Bit of an easy exit the haters are using there, seeing the pictures of someone lying on the ground getting beaten up by the law enforcement.

Author: apw
Date: 05-04-2007, 15:47

Feelesh ;

I stand by my statements, as every club has a minority who seek out trouble, including Chelsea as i know from experience.
To say otherwise is denying that any problem exists and that everything everywhere is rosy.
You only have to study comments on this forum to see the undercurrents that exist between nations who we led to believe by our governments are one.

Also Lyonnais ;

I accept your reasoning and your opinions but i cannot agree that Police forces in some countries act outsdie of the Law, i am in doubt that many members of the British public believe the police here act unlawfully, but i don't believe they would act so openly in these days of mass media exposure.
I believe the UK Police forces should toughen up but they claim rightly or wrongly that their hands are tied by Human rights laws, i didn't see too many Human rights being respected in the stands od Stadio Olimpico last night.

Author: slanders
Date: 05-04-2007, 16:42

Lyonnais, I agree you wouldn't want UEFA in control of the policing and the problem seems to be that Roma don't own their own stadium and so the Italian police are in charge, whereas British clubs employ their own security & stewards that leads to more effective safety management. Many reports of stabbings on ManU fans and the police just watch, yet when ManU fans retailate to their attackers the police wade in to beat them up is just horrible double standards! I notice the Spurs fan who tried to punch Lampard at the end of a match was banned for life from White Hart Lane, but I doubt Roma will act against any of their fans involved in the violence. Unfortuantely we have this image on the continent from past years and are easy targets to be attacked so I would say to not go to Italy or other places where this seems to happen too frequently. When local businesses like restaurants, hotels and bars start to suffer financially then maybe they'll lobby the relevant authorities to change the situation. I read that Bari whilst hosting the Scotland international reaped takings it would take all winter to make in one winter in the one weekend Scotland fans were there.

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 05-04-2007, 18:53
Edited by: Lyonnais
at: 05-04-2007, 18:56

I agree with you that from a continental perspective, British fans are not ordinary fans because (i) you might have some local idiots happy to challenge their British counterparts, (ii) because you still have some British idiots happy to challenge their local counterparts, and (iii) because of this, there is more tension from local authorities.

This said, explaining that troubles experienced in Lens, Osasuna or Rome are all local police's faults is to me a pretty simplistic point of view. That's just my point.
Lyon played in Rome one month ago. About 6,000 fans came to the Olimpico. Nobody complained about Rome fans or Italian police. Maybe, we just have been very lucky that policemen were in a good day.
Manchester experienced twice troubles in Lens then in Rome, they might be very unfortunate, all the more that all games previously held in Lens or Rome were fine, but maybe not.

I mean, you just have to take the Eurostar on a Friday night to make your own mind. When half of the train already is drunk before the train leaves Waterloo, then you might understand why some are more unfortunate than others. And I find it a bit annoying that some still deny what looks like pretty obvious.

Author: panda
Date: 05-04-2007, 19:00

I don't know what I think on this one -

1) Many English also get upset that so many English drink to get drunk, not for the pleasure of drinking wine or beer etc. This drunkenness obviously leads to bad behaviour and crime - this happens in every English city centre every Friday and Saturday night.

2) But there also seem to be clear occasions of injustice where some innocent fans are attacked either by opposing 'fans' or by the police.

3) Whether there is a British culture is much debated of course, but English and Scottish football followers would not like to be discussed as being part of the same culture - at some times, Scottish fans have been welcomed and English not and feel / have felt they have different values.

Author: eldaec
Date: 05-04-2007, 19:18
Edited by: eldaec
at: 05-04-2007, 19:19

""I have the feeling that ManU becomes a bit of an easy victiom. It always happens to them, so it must be their fault.""

Hmmm, it happens to Roma rather more often.

Same sort of thing happened on a much smaller scale when Liverpool went out there.

I'm in no position to be sure because I wasn't there. But the TV pictures made it looked like the sequence of events was...

1) A relatively small group of Roma fans charged the walls and threw some bottles.
2) The police baton charged the Man U fans for reasons that were impossible to identify.
3) A much smaller group of the Man U fans threw a few projectiles back. Most tried to run the fuck away.
4) Some of the Italian police started trying to stop their colleagues beating up those man U fans who couldn't run fast enough.
5) Heads got smashed.

Seems to be a lot of debate going on about the numebrs of injuries too, some reports of a larger numbers of Man U fan injuries than the police were admitting to.

Author: feelesh
Date: 05-04-2007, 20:56

Author: feelesh
Date: 05-04-2007, 21:04

Lyonnais - you have been spouting a weak argument for a few weeks about the English fans and the continental police, but this reply is absurd.

"I mean, you just have to take the Eurostar on a Friday night to make your own mind. When half of the train already is drunk before the train leaves Waterloo, then you might understand why some are more unfortunate than others. And I find it a bit annoying that some still deny what looks like pretty obvious."

The majority of people who leave London on a Friday night on Eurostar are French!!! Grow up and instead of defending poor French policing, defend the right of a football fan to attend their teams ground without being beaten up. English fans are the most numerous supporters week-in, week out yet the trouble when they attend the matches of their teams is negligible.

There have been severe problems recently in Spain, Italy and Greece yet you prefer to accuse the English fans based on an outdated reputation. See the light and stop being so nationalistic. The French police are no angels!!

Re: Stadium Security - Worrying statement from UEFA
Author: nelster Date: 05-04-2007, 21:13	Aside from the security aspect, it is refreshing to see the Home Office in the UK making statements that it is unacceptable. Scotland's first minister Jack McConnell stated after Rangers - Osasuna "I will only get involved if Rangers or the SFA ask me to" This is what we are up against, UEFA say - it's a government issue - the Government say - It's a football matter.

Author: apw
Date: 05-04-2007, 23:36
Edited by: apw
at: 05-04-2007, 23:40

APW - you are trying to appear as Mr Reasonable speaking from an English perspective - you being a Chelsea supporter, but forget the suppositions, ie. "every club has a minority who seek out trouble", base your arguments on fact.

If it had been Chelsea fans in the line of fire would you be so magnanimous? I doubt it.

This is not a nationalistic thing - football fans are being beaten senseless and you are implying they deserve it, (especially so if they are United fans).

Look at the evidence. The Rome police waded in unnecessarily; a UK radio 5live reporter was beaten up; the Italian authorities were asking the police to back off; fans were not protected before the match.

You are adopting the perspective of a righteous fan, when it would be wise to understand that football supporters throughout Europe are at the mercy of over zealous police.

Why? What have they done wrong?

Feelesh :

I don't know where you get the impression that i have in any way implied that United fans deserved to beaten senseless, if you read my post correctly i am trying to say exactly the OPPOSITE !
I am trying to get the point across that United fans have been traeted appallingly both in Rome and in Lens,

Please read the following paragraph which is from my original post

" I am a Chelsea fan and i also have sympathies with Celtic but i also believe in fairness and honesty and both those threads were polluted with biased comments based on hatred of the 2 teams mentioned.
No fan going to any game anywhere deserves to beaten senseless by the so called authorities because of the songs they sing, the colours they wear, the team they support or their nationality.
Sadly Police forces in many countries don't believe this to be the case.
I would be equally disgusted if Valencia, Roma or PSV received similiar treatment in England but it won't happen, which will save M.Gallaird making any further comment about the policing of Stadia "

I then went on to mention in passing that some United fans although fans may not be the right choice of word wnet looking for trouble and yes Chelsea do have followers with the same mindset.

Before you attempt to turn this into a slanging match between Chelsea & Man Utd ( which i have no desire to do ) i suggest you read my post correctly and then realise that we are both actually saying the same thing, that Over Zealous Police forces in certain countries think it is Ok to beat British Fans.

I don't know if you are English but you are a united fan and trust me i am 100% behind your fans and those of Rangers etc who have been the victims of Police Brutality.

Hope this clears up a misunderstanding and btw trust me having been home and away with Chelsea since the late 70's and do have experience of what goes on even i don't travel anymore !

Also we all know that UEFA will do nothing apart from fine the clubs on some ridiculous trumped up charge.

Perhaps UEFA are getting worried that English clubs are starting to dominate Europe again and are looking for a way to ban English clubs ?
Now that's a conspiracy thoery !

Re: Stadium Security - Worrying statement from UEF
Author: eldaec Date: 06-04-2007, 10:04	Here's a thing. UEFA plan to hold the 2009 CL final in that stadium. /shudder