Forum

xml	No replies possible in the archive

Author: MartinW
Date: 15-12-2006, 04:53

I thought it would be interesting to check the progress of the teams which qualified through Intertoto Cup for this year. Due to the change to 11 teams, it will help to see what impact they have:

Win UIC: 11 teams

UC QR2
Win: 8 teams (1 unseeded team won, Ethnikos)

Lose: 3 teams (Twente, Ried, Maribor) (1 seeded team lost, Twente)

UC R1
Win: 4 teams (1 unseeded team won, Odense)

Lose: 4 teams (Marseille, Hertha B, Kayserispor, Ethnikos) (2 seeded teams lost, Marseille, Hertha B)

UC GS
Pass: 1 team (Newcastle, Pot A)

Fail: 3 teams (Auxerre, Pot A) (Grasshoppers, Pot D) (Odense, Pot E)

So if you compare the progress to their seeding level, the teams could be classified as follows:
Over-achievers: Ethnikos, Odense
Average-achievers: Ried, Maribor, Kayserispor, Grasshoppers, Newcastle (so far)
Under-achievers: Twente, Marseille, Hertha B, Auxerre

Author: panda
Date: 15-12-2006, 14:03
Edited by: panda
at: 15-12-2006, 14:25

There is a detailed thread somewhere on this (I will look) started by AS.

This topic fascinates me.

I'd temporarily forgotten that Newcastle (but I remembered Auxerre) were in through IT. And Zulte I think through FP? So one of tehm MUST be in last 16.

AS proposed some formulae about stuff like

Does the IT harm the country co-eff for that yr?
How does the IT team compare with the otherwise worst team from that country (in many countries, 1 or 2 teams scroe most of the country points)

So far, you'd say, newcastle have been v lucky IT was extended to 11.

Re: Performance of Intertoto teams
Author: putzeijs Date: 15-12-2006, 14:34	Panda, Zulte passed through Belgian cup. Roeselaere was our Fair play participant. Both Zulte and Roeselaere played in second devision 2 years ago.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 15-12-2006, 14:45

Yay - Panda's back:

"I'd temporarily forgotten that Newcastle (but I remembered Auxerre) were in through IT. And Zulte I think through FP? So one of tehm MUST be in last 16".

Zulte were in because they won the Belgian Cup. Roeselare were the Fair Play team.

As for the IT teams. Interesting that only one Intertoto qualifier makes the last 32. Last year it was 3/3. 2004-05 it was also 3/3. in the two pre-group phase seasons before that it was 2/3.

So, although some people were concerned at the outset that the IT would result in more clubs from the big countries (5 instead of 3) taking up UEFA Cup spots what's actually happened is that the majority of clubs qualifying have been weaker. I think I suggested somewhere this might happen - it was certainly a thought I had but whether I wrote it down?

In the past Germany & France tended to have three entries apiece - Spain often at least a couple. The odds were pretty good that at least one of the clubs entering from these countries would turn out to be quite strong. But with only one club from each country it's more random whether this is one that grows stronger or weaker between seasons.

As for Newcastle. They did very well in a tough group. But when you look at the knockout draws maybe "their name is on the cup" as is usually said about at least half a dozen sides during an English FA Cup season. The lowest ranked team (Levadia) in Round 1 & the most wanted (& probably lowest ranked) team in the last 32. OK - then it gets tougher but it has to sometime...

Re: Performance of Intertoto teams
Author: Ricardo Date: 15-12-2006, 15:06	AZ will stop them

Re: Performance of Intertoto teams
Author: noppenaaldhakken Date: 15-12-2006, 16:11	@ Ricardo I share your dream but let's first worry about Fener, Werder, Tottenham and Arsenal. SOMEBODY PINCH ME! I MUST BE HAVING A NIGHTMARE!

Re: Performance of Intertoto teams
Author: izztupido Date: 15-12-2006, 17:08 Edited by: izztupido at: 15-12-2006, 17:10	These results only give reason to our FA (Portugal), to not compete in that silly competition. Besides Newcastle, the other teams, have made poor results. I wonder why this competition still exists. It only costs money, and have no return.

Re: Performance of Intertoto teams
Author: panda Date: 16-12-2006, 08:52 Edited by: panda at: 16-12-2006, 09:13	OK, OK sorry

Author: MalcolmW
Date: 16-12-2006, 15:12
Edited by: MalcolmW
at: 16-12-2006, 20:19

These results might give Portuguese clubs incentive not to bother with IT. They do not give their national FA a right to interfere with their free choice.
Chelsea, sfter their first English league title (1955) attended the preliminary meeting which resolved to start Champions' Cup. The (English) FA pressured them into not proceeding (btw - Does anyone know which country took the vacant 16th place?). Next season Manchester United won the league and their manager (busby) resisted the same strong pressure from FA....

Author: jpcccc
Date: 17-12-2006, 02:29
Edited by: jpcccc
at: 17-12-2006, 02:52

Well, the first game ever (the beggining of European competitions) was Sporting CP against Partizan Beograd in Lisbon... That's a story well known in Portugal.

The first round had this line-up (taken from RSFFF.com)

Servette FC (Genève)---Swi-------Real Madrid---------Esp-- 0-2 0-5 0-7
Sporting CP (Lisboa)---Por-------FK Partizan (Beograd)Yug- 3-3 2-5 5-8
SK Rapid Wien----------Aut-------PSV (Eindhoven)-----Ned-- 6-1 0-1 6-2
Milan AC---------------Ita-------1.FC Saarbrücken----Saa-- 3-4 4-1 7-5
Rot-Weiss Essen--------FRG-------Hibernian-----------Sco-- 0-4 1-1 1-5
Djurgårdens IF---------Swe-------Gwardia Warszawa----Pol-- 0-0 4-1 4-1
Vörös Lobogó(Budapest)-Hun-------RSC Anderlecht------Bel-- 6-3 4-1 10-4
AGF (Aarhus)-----------Den-------Stade de Reims------Fra-- 0-2 2-2 2-4

So, could it be that the replacement of the english team was Saarbrucken ? Remember that Saarland was a temporarily independent state because of the II world war aftermath... Also, never accepted as independent by FR Germany, neither its incorporation in FR Germany was accepted by France.

Or could it be Gwardia Warszawa from Poland ? You see, almost no team from the Eastern Block is in that line-up, exception made to the polish team. Remember that Hungary and Yugslavia were somewhat free of the soviet domination by then. Not Poland, so it seems odd its participation...

Anyone knows the truly true story ?

Author: badgerboy
Date: 17-12-2006, 12:56

jpcccc wrote:

"Well, the first game ever (the beggining of European competitions) was Sporting CP against Partizan Beograd in Lisbon... That's a story well known in Portugal".

Well I have to correct this story slightly. The beginning of the European Cup (important enough in itself) yes - the beginning of European competition - no. This was actually an Inter- City Fairs Cup match between Basel & a London XI played on 4 June 1955. Interesting in the context of the line this thread has taken mostly because it included a number of that Chelsea title winning side. See my wikipedia entry for more details.

As for who might have been drafted in to replace the English club. That I don't know. Or indeed if it wasn't just pot luck that the number of teams they ended up with was 16.

I do know that a fair number of the teams taking part weren't Champions of their country though.

Indeed neither of the teams taking part in that first match were domestic Champions in 1954-55. Sporting were only 3rd in Portugal - their great rivals Benfica were Champions. Partizan were 5th in Yugoslavia - Hajduk Split were Champions.

From the other sixteen clubs:

Hibernian - who reached the semi-finals - were fifth in Scotland, Aberdeen having been Champions.

Rapid Wien were 3rd in Austria behind First Vienna FC.

Voros Lobogo were 2nd in Hungary behind Honved.

Gwardia Warszawa were 4th in both 1954 & 1955. Assuming it was the former season that was counted for European purposes it was Ogniwo Bytom that failed to participate as Champions.

Servette were 6th in Switzerland, La Chaux-de-Fonds were Champions.

PSV were 3rd in the Dutch Championship play-off - won by Willem II.

FC Saarbrucken were an oddity in themselves - the Saar league already having been disbanded by this time & the club playing within the West German league system (3rd in the South-West section behind Kaiserslautern in 1954-55).

So of the 16 clubs only 7 - Real Madrid, Stade de Reims, Milan, Djurgardens, AGF Aarhus, Anderlecht & Rot-Weiss Essen did so as Champions.

Re: Performance of Intertoto teams
Author: MalcolmW Date: 17-12-2006, 13:57	jpcccc Good powers of deduction. The replacement was Gwardia. The initial 16 attended a meeting in Paris, following a proposal published in L'Equipe, whose editor had taken the idea to the infant UEFA. Not by coincidence was the first final held in Paris.

Re: Performance of Intertoto teams
Author: badgerboy Date: 17-12-2006, 14:03	Malcolm. Nice one. Do you have an internet link for this detail by any chance - or does it come from a book on the history of the European Cups?

Author: apw
Date: 17-12-2006, 18:04

This competition is truly becoming one of the biggest farces in European Football History !

Apparently Newcastle United will be awarded a trophy for winning a competition that they only played 2 games in !

No wonder there are moves afoot all around Europe to create super leagues

Who cares for Intertoto why not just add extra prem rounds to Uefa Cup or make the proposed cup winners cup a prem for Uefa

Author: MalcolmW
Date: 17-12-2006, 21:35

badgerboy

It's from a book called "European Cup" by Anton Rippon, published by Mirror Books Ltd, (£1.25) in March 1980. I think I bought it from Sportspages bookshop in Manchester (now defunct??) in the last few years.

The 12 Chapters are titled:
1 The Beginnings
2 The Legends: (1) Real Madrid
3 The Legends: (2) The Dutch Masters
4 The Legends: (3) Benfica, The Milans, Bayern Munich
5 Manchester United
6 Liverpool - The Super Reds
7 Celtic - And The 'Storm'
8 The Other English Challengers
9 Scotland's Other Six - And Some Irish Jigs
10 The Forest Challenge 1978-79
11 Season By Season (results and British Isles goalscorers included)
12 European Cup 1979-80

Re: Performance of Intertoto teams
Author: badgerboy Date: 19-12-2006, 12:34	Thanks Malcolm. I found the book on Amazon marketplace. Apparently I can buy a used copy for just over £3.00 (£2.75 of which is postage!). I might contemplate waiting until the new year & splashing out on one of the newer histories though....

Re: Performance of Intertoto teams
Author: MalcolmW Date: 19-12-2006, 20:49	There is a misprint on p104. It was 31 August 1963(not 1965) when (now Sir) Tom Finney (who had been with Preston North End from teenager until he 'retired') played in the European Champions Cup Qualify Round, first leg for(?).