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Bayern Munich considering pulling out of G-14
Author: eoinh Date: 27-11-2006, 18:31	Click I see Bayern are thinking of pulling out of the G-14 and that Rummenigge doesnt expect a german club to reach a european final in the next ten years. To be honest I dont have much sympathy for him as Munich are only suffering from what they themselves did to other clubs from smaller countries for many years.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 27-11-2006, 19:56

It is quite amusing considering how much money Bayern themselves have made out of European foootball in past seasons.

It seems that while the German clubs themselves were getting more money than anybody else from TV (I believe this was the case in the marketing cycle before last) everything was fine but now they're only 4th or 5th on the "rich list" suddenly money is a problem.

It all sounds like nonsensical rhetoric anyway. It might not be possible for Bayern to dominate European football like they did for a spell in the 70s anymore but to say it's impossible to build a team capable of winning the CL at least once in a while is a bit much. If Porto can do it...

All this hot air - the guy isn't up for re-election or something soon is he? Otherwise I suspect just attempting to dampen the expectations of fans so any triumph can be "against great odds" etc. etc.

Re: Bayern Munich considering pulling out of G-14
Author: spartaan Date: 27-11-2006, 20:31	a couple of months ago i saw on belgian tv, that Bayern Munich earns (around) 240 million euro since the beginning of the Champions league. Bayern was on the top of the list

Author: krasste
Date: 27-11-2006, 21:39

Think you are quite wrong here Badgerboy. Some comments from me.

"It is quite amusing considering how much money Bayern themselves have made out of European foootball in past seasons."

Sure, but he is not talking about money from CL only. In Germany theres a special system of marketing for the TV-Rights. A pact of solidarity between all 36 clubs in BL1&2. The TV rights are sold for all teams in one package and max. Bayern may reach, winning championship, domestic cup and cl, is only 1/5 of what Real,f.e., gets for sure every season with their new contract.

"It seems that while the German clubs themselves were getting more money than anybody else from TV (I believe this was the case in the marketing cycle before last) everything was fine but now they're only 4th or 5th on the "rich list" suddenly money is a problem."

Even if you are right, its quite obvious that theres a huge difference between Eng, Esp, Ita and Germany. Where are the superstars in BL? If you are a solid operating business company, like Bayern is, theres no chance to compete with the rest. Just have a look at the mountains of debts from most Top-Teams. And that Bayern is not willing to go the same way deserves respect imho. Every time a contract of player from Bayern ends, some medicore spanish or italian teams smell the rat. Lets see where Pizarro or Salihamidcic play next season. The gap is huge and if Juventus or even Betis or any other team is able to pay a lot more then Bayern theres obviously something wrong. (though Bayern shows a profit every year and juve like xxx millions more debts)

"It all sounds like nonsensical rhetoric anyway. It might not be possible for Bayern to dominate European football like they did for a spell in the 70s anymore but to say it's impossible to build a team capable of winning the CL at least once in a while is a bit much. If Porto can do it..."

Sure, this passage is nonsense. Everything is possible, we talk about football. But if everything goes the normal way... They are knocked out not later than the quartelfinals...

"All this hot air - the guy isn't up for re-election or something soon is he? Otherwise I suspect just attempting to dampen the expectations of fans so any triumph can be "against great odds" etc. etc."

Nope, theres nothing

Do you really believe in a CL-triumph?

Bayern Munich considering pulling out of G-14
Author: antonio62tr Date: 28-11-2006, 08:59	I am sure Bayern has more income than total of Monaco and Porto CL finalists of 2004...I think is German teams lost their confidence and start crying...

Author: spenk
Date: 28-11-2006, 10:28

I think this is indeed a sort of crying. If i look at the situation in Holland we have had that crying-stage already some time ago. In 95 Ajax won the CL. The years after that everybody started complaining that the dutch competition and teams were not competitive anymore. They called the competition the mickey mouse competition... In some way they were right. Because of the higher influence of money on football and because the money is going more to the large competitions, the dutch competition is not competitive enough to be in the top-5 of competitions (what a lot of people believed it should be). Nowadays i think people have accepted that and have more realistic expections of the dutch teams. We are not going to win a cup every 4 years, but once in 7-8 years could be possible. In 2002 feyenoord won the UC. That also helped people thinking that money is not everything in football. In 2005 both AZ and PSV were very close to reaching a cup final. People were really proud of that and said that the dutch competition was not that bad after all, instead of crying that they didnt win the cup again. People have accepted that we are now a good top-8 competition in europe with chances now and then to have success. It is also a lot more fun following football like that.

I think germany will go through the crying stage now, and after that they must accept that they are not the dominant football country in europe, but that they belong to the top-6 of strongest countries, not winning a european cup every 3 years but maybe one in every 5 years. They have won two CL's in the last 10 years, they have forgotten that pretty fast. Comparing everything to Chelsea is also rather strange. Ok, they have been launched up to the european top through the russian money, but still they havent won the european cup. To me the chelsea case proves that money is important in football nowadays, but it is not deciding everything.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 28-11-2006, 11:16

Krasste

I guess the main problem I have with Rummennigge's comments are the hypocrisy. The fact that economics: Bayern have been the richest (or one of the richest) clubs in Germany for years - has allowed them to dominate the competition there - absolutely no problem. But when the same economics dictate they are likely to be dominated by someone else then: "It must be changed. It's killing football".

I guess it's the same thing I say to fans of big clubs from less powerful countries. They don't mind (or don't even consider the fact) that their club is one of only two or three that can win the league in their country because their economic power lets them take the best players from the rest of the clubs in their league. But when clubs from other leagues start taking their players....

That said & having read the original link article more thoroughly now. I would be in favour of some kind of salary cap (based on percentage of turnover). My view is that "new investment" by people like Abramovich cannot be stopped - & probably shouldn't be discouraged. Otherwise you just encourage a status quo of the big clubs now staying that way for all time. If Abramovich (or someone like him) wants to invest x hundred million in new players fine but all ongoing costs (so wages in this case) should be affordable out of the income generated by the club.

I'm not sure what Rummenigge means by "European central marketing for all the clubs". If this is insisting that clubs in smaller leagues benefit from the domestic wealth generated by the richest. I really can't see how this is realistic. To be honest my perfect football utopia would see all clubs within each domestic league of almost equal wealth & with a salary cap so clubs can't borrow in pursuit of success. Any money won in European competition would also be shared equally between the clubs in the league concerned - to retain the balance. Reading could realistically win the Premier League, Racing Santander La Liga, Wolfsburg the Bundesliga etc. That way - even if the Premier League were substantially richer than the Bundesliga etc. the same teams wouldn't qualify all the time & the chances of clubs from a small number of countries dominating would be much less.

I realise though that football, whether we like it or not, is a "business" as well as a game these days. So my utopia isn't really possible - unless I'm missing something (quite possible) I can't see how Rummenigge's idea of central marketing is any different.

Finally - yes I do think it's possible for Bayern to win the CL - this year or in the next few years. Of course they are not one of the favourites but they would be in the batch of "second-tier" clubs for whom victory would not count as a big surprise. I'd have them as more likely winners at the start of each year than Porto were when they won in 2004 or Liverpool in 2005 for example. They are also the type of team I always expect to "bounce back". I must admit I expected them to come closer to winning the competition than they have in the years after their 2002-03 disaster but I don't see the fact they haven't as evidence of irreversible decline. At least a dozen clubs can win the CL - Bayern last did so in 2001. That means at least half a dozen clubs should have more cause for concern than they do.

Author: krasste
Date: 28-11-2006, 16:37

"Bayern have been the richest (or one of the richest) clubs in Germany for years - has allowed them to dominate the competition there - absolutely no problem. But when the same economics dictate they are likely to be dominated by someone else then: "It must be changed. It's killing football"."

Sure Bayern is the richest club in Germany, but i tell you now once more that Bayern does support every single club in Germany with the TV-Contract. They were able to resign from the marketing concept couple of years ago and refused to do so. Bayern may easily get 2,3 or even 4 times the money they get now. But for smaller clubs this would be... His words are well chosen at least here, he cares about football.

"I guess it's the same thing I say to fans of big clubs from less powerful countries. They don't mind (or don't even consider the fact) that their club is one of only two or three that can win the league in their country because their economic power lets them take the best players from the rest of the clubs in their league. But when clubs from other leagues start taking their players...."

;D Bayern is the biggest club of a very big country. He claims that mismanagement as in Italy is not punished. Isnt it right? Its ridiculous.

"European central marketing for all the clubs"

Its not mentioned in the german version of the article, no idea how this came up. But the salary cap is and i think thats the main point. Bayern is not willing to pay what others do. Thats it. If Big Ab stops feeding Chelsea with money, what happens then? They cant even pay the wages for half the squad :D And this point will come, im sure! A good example is Roma some years ago. Players did not get their wages half a year and they decided to buy a player for 20millions, which they paid off in 10 years a 2millons... while they have 600Mios debts...
And you are right, Bayern is able to win the CL. They are not the fav team though. And they wont be if theres no agreement in G14, and as i see Bayern is the only club that wants some changes. Its typical German maybe, southern mentality is quite different here. They just dont care... So why not some restrictions? Like the salary cap or why not a income-outgo arrangement for example? Just to protect some clubs... If you earn 150mios a season and dump 500mios its no fair competition. And solid operating teams cant be forced to act like this in order to have chances to win a cup.
One point left. This is not crying and plz dont compare Bayern and Monaco. This is also not the same article the Rummenigges last one, which was indeed a joke.

Author: ignjat63
Date: 28-11-2006, 18:35

So what bothers Bayern is that only German clubs practice sound economy whereas other countries tolerate the big debts of their clubs. I think that is because football (and indeed sport in general) is a bit like culture and science - there is an element of national prestige there. So perhaps Italy (Roma is mentioned above) wants to have the best club football in Europe (success-wise) and is willing to even invest in football in a way, ie tolerate losses.

I do not know if that is really so. Just thinking aloud. It is not bad at all to be widely accepted as the best league in the world. And it costs money. I suppose it cost a lot of money too to make Milan Scala what it is now and their Orchestra one of the best in the world. Prestige is all there but it costs.

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 28-11-2006, 19:01
Edited by: Lyonnais
at: 28-11-2006, 19:03

I have not been able to read the whole itw. However, based on what I've heard and understood, it looks like that Rummenigge blames the other G-14 members for not sharing their views for further integration.

It indeed seems that G14 members disagree on the raison d'etre of G14. Should the G14 just be a lobby to be actionned for specific issues or should the G14 be a real association sharing the same interets and having the same objectives (creation of a EuroLeague?).

Other pending issue: number of members. Some want to significantly increase the number of members (I've read 50) to increase pressure on UEFA and FIFA (and not to be seen as the club of happy fews only). Some believe that such a number of members would prevent the G14 from doing anything.

It's funny to see the parallel with the UE politics

Personal interpretation: G14 almost had eveything they requested for the reorganization of European Cups. They are now fighting the status of international players (who is paying insurance in case of injuries? etc.), but the German federation already accepted to pay, meaning that they already won half of the battle.
Once this battle is over, my personal guess is that they do not have that much in common.

Re: Bayern Munich considering pulling out of G-14
Author: antonio62tr Date: 29-11-2006, 08:34	Lyonnis G14 is very right on that issue.Federations have to pay for injuries at national teams.. Although there is no Turkish team at G14, our federation pay for Rustu's injury at Italy-Turkey game...