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Author: Maluyaca
Date: 03-11-2006, 11:02

7 Romania 2.166 4.333 5.500 16.833 9.000 37.832 3/ 3
8 Netherlands 6.166 5.416 12.000 7.583 4.785 35.950 5/ 7
9 Russia 3.625 5.875 10.000 10.000 5.375 34.875 2/ 4

Battle where? Romania and Netherlands won't loose their spot to Russia. So Russia is the big winner and get the position that a lot of countries would like to have.

Russia will end up on position 9, have a direct qualified team for CL and only enter with 4 teams. From these position they can get a shot to get higher in the ranking in the future.

Author: spenk
Date: 03-11-2006, 11:21

well, I must have missed something, but I think russia is playing with 4 teams this year, 2 teams in CL and 2 in UC (intertoto team didnt qualify) and they seem to make not a good result. So what is the big advantage of ending up ninth and playing with 4 teams?

The biggest difference will be that they don't need to play a lot of qualifications, but if that will be an advantage? This year until now most of their points came from qualification...They may play with 5 teams next year because of intertoto teams. Besides that I think that this years prestations prove that they don't have the teams (at the moment) to get higher on the ranking.

Re: The battle for position 8
Author: Maluyaca Date: 03-11-2006, 11:59	@spenk I said that it's the best position to go higher up not that they will do it. Like position 16 is also a good position to challenge the other teams. And below 22 look at Romania last year and this year. But all depends also of wich teams get qualified and the draw in the first round of Uefa. These countries will only challenge if their teams survive the first round.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 03-11-2006, 13:47

There's no doubt to me that Russia has the potential to challenge for a higher position.

This season has looked disappointing primarily because they have no teams left in the UEFA Cup. Rubin Kazan's defeat to Parma wasn't a huge surprise - though some that saw the games said they were unfortunate. But Lokomotiv's loss to Zulte (though that result doesn't look as bad now as it did) was a big shock. They also lost to Rapid Wien in the CL qualifiers last year - which to me was even more unexpected.

I think if Russia can get four teams (preferably their four best teams) into the main competitions though there's a lot of potential for them to pick up points from at least three of them. The second CL team (after CSKA) is less sure. And they will now have two years -not one - from 9th position to achieve this.

Next year I'd say they really want the top four in the league "batting" for them in Europe. Not some average league side sneaking in as Cup winner or losing finalist.

Author: spenk
Date: 03-11-2006, 14:50

Russia does have one big advantage compared to some other teams in those positions, they have their best seasons in the last two years, and their worst 4 and 5 years ago. Those bad seasons will be scratched next year and the year after, and that will give them a good opportunity. For example next year the 02/03 ranking will be removed, in which russia scored 3.6 points, and portugal 10.7. The year after that russia scored only 5.8 and portugal 10.2. That is the big advantage for the russians the coming years, but they have to do better than this year, otherwise they will lose their good starting point.

By the way, what I always think is interesting/funny to see, is the circle of getting up and having more teams. Why is it good to play with only a few teams in europe?: we want to get up. Why do you want to get up?: to get more teams in europe/CL. So if you want to play with more teams, why is it good to play with a few teams now?....

It looks like getting in a good position to get up is actually more important than being up, and playing with more teams...I would say playing with a lot of teams should always be the objective...

Author: Maluyaca
Date: 03-11-2006, 15:01

@spenk

It depends on what you want. I'm a supporter of KRC Genk in Belgium (subtop) and Sporting Clube de Portugal (Top team).

I want Portugal up because Sporting end almost in the top 3 in Portugal. Position 6 gives you the right to have 3 teams in CL. The chance that Sporting doesn't end in the top 3 is minimal. Suppose that Portugal ends up on position 7 the chance that Sporting won't play CL is a lot greater because first of all they have to end in the top 2 and probably and qualify for actual CL.

In Belgium it's an other case. Genk is at the same level of Standard for the moment (not for long because we have a better management) so I don't know if position 10 is a good thing because of the direct spot for the champion. The chance that we become champion is not so big.

If Holland fail to reach spot 8 and end up on position 9 which teams will probably suffer, one of the topteams because no CL but also the smaller teams like Heereveen who qualify for Europe but don't finish high enough in domestic leauge.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 03-11-2006, 17:36

Spenk wrote:

"...I would say playing with a lot of teams should always be the objective..."

I couldn't agree more. I think there are two reasons it doesn't always seem true on here.

The first is not a good one. Self-interest. People might only be interested in the progress of their own club. If they regularly get into the top two in their league and qualify for the CL who needs more teams potentially bringing their coefficient down & making life harder?

Second - and more reasonable - is taking a long term view. Russia having two years with four clubs now might mean they can build up a decent enough number of points to keep six clubs for a much longer period in future. The same thing applies to Romania right now. In a way it's a shame that the rewards for last year's performance aren't more immediate. But in the long run their retaining three teams this year and only going up by one next year should mean that they can retain their six teams for at least three seasons.

Re: The battle for position 8
Author: Maluyaca Date: 24-11-2006, 00:53	Standings after matchday 5 CL / matchday 3 UEFA 8 Netherlands 6.166 5.416 12.000 7.583 5.071 36.236 5/ 7 9 Russia 3.625 5.875 10.000 10.000 5.625 35.125 2/ 4 Still going for Netherlands. Russia will end up on position 9.

Re: The battle for position 8
Author: Krys Date: 24-11-2006, 03:40	By the way 90 % that CSKA, Spartak, Zenit znd Loko will be participating from Russia next year. They are 4 most experienced and have the best coeff in Russia. CSKA - 52.5 Loko, Zenit - 38.5 Spartak - 24.5 So Russia has very good chances to beat the national record(10.0) next year.

Re: The battle for position 8
Author: Floridian Date: 30-11-2006, 23:26 Edited by: Floridian at: 30-11-2006, 23:41	Standings after CL MD5 and UC MD4: 8 Netherlands 6.166 5.416 12.000 7.583 5.214 36.379 5/7 9 Russia 3.625 5.875 10.000 10.000 5.625 35.125 2/4 If CSKA and Spartak would win their matches on MD6 in CL, Russia will be back in contention - 2 Russian teams in Europe in the spring vs. possible 3 Dutch teams (Feyenoord and Heerenveen do not sem likely to qualify from GS).

Re: The battle for position 8
Author: spenk Date: 01-12-2006, 10:42	Russia is still not chanceless in this battle. It looks like the dutch don't want to get that 8th place for sure. They keep underperforming the past weeks. It could/should have been decided already.

Re: The battle for position 8
Author: antonio62tr Date: 01-12-2006, 10:48	i think it will be head to head game after Feyenord and Heerenven out.So Dutch will have 3/7 and Russia 2/4...I bet on Russia.

Author: noppenaaldhakken
Date: 01-12-2006, 18:18

@ antonio62tr and Floridian

man, you had me scared there for a moment. The situation is however a little different than you portray. Therefore a team by team comparison from the team most likely to be elimaneted to the teams that are already through to the next round.

Heerenveen: hanging by a thread. Needing a home win against Lens (not likely) and Osasuna to lose against an already qualified and groupwinner Parma (even more unlikely) to advance. I expect a draw.
Prospect: If!!!! they pull this off anything (including not to big a losses)is a bonus.

Spartak Moskva: needs an AWAY victory against Sporting to claim the UEFA spot. A longshot at most. Again a draw.
Prospect: Every no.2 UEFA team will want to be paired with them.

Feyenoord: Needs a home win against Wisla Krakow. Despite the complete lack of form (and quality players) this is doable. A filled up Kuip (feyenoord stadium), if allowed, will provide for a classic atmosphere. I predict (and hope) a small, nailbiting win!
Prospect: SEE HEERENVEEN

Ajax: can afford to lose away against Zulte Waregem with 4 goals difference. Since the home defeat against PSV, Ajax completely lost their senses. A big defeat against a Belgian lowflyer will however not happen. On the contrary: Zulte watch out an enraged Ajax is coming your way.
Prospect: Although overrated, with a good draw and Huntelaar/Sneijder on target maybe semi-final material. Not stable enough to win.

Other teams are already qualified.

AZ: will play the cupholder and no.2 of Spain away. A draw will be enough to win the group. AZ usually goes all out (gotta admire that). I expect they will play reserved (not their style) and get thrashed.
Prospect: underrated, can overwhelm smaller opponents and tactically outmanouver stronger opponents. Best Dutch team in UC. If no.2 in group an unlucky draw (Barcelona/Bremen or others) might mean the end. FYI: 29 (european matches) undefeated at home. The record (Ipswich Town 32) is looming.

CSKA: Tricky an away win against hamburg might mean going to the last 16. I expect a draw.
Prospect: a real contender in UC. Otherwise an anonymous exit from last 16 CL

PSV: Already there. Again a draw. Maybe even a dreaded and boresome 0-0 or 1-1.
Prospect: Depending on the CL last 16 draw. I expect a quick exit (srry Ricardo) but they will still grab some points along the way.

Author: Max_F
Date: 01-12-2006, 22:58
Edited by: Max_F
at: 02-12-2006, 01:41

I think that is the UEFA ranking system is not very good. We always see cycles of raising and sinking of almost every countries between places 6-21 (often with full amplitude: from 7 to 2x and vice versa).
What happens when country raise up?
1. Less preliminary rounds - less points.
2. More teams - less average standard of teams from country (many countries have only 1-2 good teams).
3. More teams take participance in CL - again less points because it much harder to obtain points in CL then in UC.
So as country raising up, the teams certainly have to increase their standard in order that the country keeps its ranking. But usually happens the other way: after 2-4 nice years good teams have an recession. Just by this its country becomes to lose "good years" with high coefficients. So the country fall down very quickly.

My opinion for improving the system:
1. Change ranking calculation: just multiply current ranking by 0.8 and add next annual coefficient. So will no problem with loosing "good years".
2. Make additional bonuses for more participants. Say, 3 participants - no bonus, 4 - 3 bonus points, 5 - 6 and so on. Maybe even with progression: 0-2-5-8-12-16.
3. Make more points for CL (1.5 or 2 times more).
4. Apply new ranking to next season, not to season after season.

Author: Lupta_Steaua
Date: 02-12-2006, 01:01

I really can not understand why a volatile system is not good.
Is it because more countries have a chance of proving they can be better? Is it because fans from more countries are more interested (or are kept interested) in football? Is it because there are chances that more countries will become interested?

The only reason would be financial stability, which also has no chances of happening even under a "protective" system due to such guys like Abramovich.

Thus, I do believe that UEFA should maintain the current system, or if any changes are to be made, they should only increase the number of teams participating from each country.

Re: The battle for position 8
Author: Max_F Date: 02-12-2006, 01:46 Edited by: Max_F at: 02-12-2006, 01:51	I think soon (in 5 years) we will see all I talked about on example of Romania. When they got 6 teams and 3 best of them which now easily win in UC will go to CL, it will very hard to Romania to stay in top 6. I think it will be big crash as it happened with Russia (4 or 5 times from 1979), Greece, Turkey and many other countries.

Author: Lupta_Steaua
Date: 02-12-2006, 02:34

Max_F,

I never said that Romania would not have to suffer, they probably will. However, I do believe that the current system encourages the development of new teams. This is currently happening in Romania with CFR Cluj and Poli Timisoara (maybe also Otelul Galati). These teams are getting more and more prepared to participate in Europe.

Therefore, predicting Romania's roll down, is a bit to early. It might just happen that we could stick around for a longer period. But, again, it might not. We'll see. But we will have to wait for quite a long period to find out that.

Author: spenk
Date: 03-12-2006, 13:11

@ noppenaaldhakken:

"AZ:FYI: 29 (european matches) undefeated at home. The record (Ipswich Town 32) is looming."

As far as I know, that record isn't looming at all. Manchester United were unbeaten at home from 1956 till 1996 in 56! european matches. 29 is quite a prestation, also considering the fact that those are all the matches az has ever played at home in europe: they have never lost a home game. But they are only halfway the record.

I saw on the AZ website that they also think the record is 31 from Ipswich. Maybe they/you mean the record of being unbeaten at home in europe from the first match played at home in europe?

Re: The battle for position 8
Author: badgerboy Date: 03-12-2006, 17:53 Edited by: badgerboy at: 03-12-2006, 17:57	This doesn't work as United's record also dates from their first European match. Maybe it's a record specific to the UEFA Cup? Edit: OK I get it. Ipswich & AZ are still unbeaten.

Re: The battle for position 8
Author: Floridian Date: 05-12-2006, 23:35	Looks like there is still some life in this topic - Spartak has won in Portugal and is through to UEFA cup last 32. CSKA is certain to continue either in CL or UC. Especially if CSKA will not get to CL playoff, Russia is still in contention.

Re: The battle for position 8
Author: Max_F Date: 05-12-2006, 23:50	Damn, only not 8! And not 7! We don't need 6 teams now!

Re: The battle for position 8
Author: Floridian Date: 06-12-2006, 01:03	It will not be now. Even if Russia will get the 8th spot at the end of this year, 6 teams will only start in 2008-09 season. In 2007-08 season Russia will still play with 4 teams, CSKA starting in the GS CL, Spartak in QR3 CL, Loko in QR2 UC (or R1 UC), cup winner in R1 UC (or cup loser or Zenit in QR2 UC).

Re: The battle for position 8
Author: antonio62tr Date: 06-12-2006, 08:51	8 Nether-----6.166---5.416---12.000----7.583---5.357--36.522----5/ 7 9 Russia-----3.625---5.875---10.000---10.000---6.125--35.625----2/ 4 Yes,now it is good race i think..Spartak got the spot and very good advantage if Dutch lose their teams i mentioned before..I hope this year Russian get their 10 points and next year fight for 5th place...

Re: The battle for position 8
Author: Maluyaca Date: 06-12-2006, 23:22	Standings after group stage CL 8 Netherlands 6.166 5.416 12.000 7.583 5.357 36.522 5/ 7 9 Russia 3.625 5.875 10.000 10.000 6.125 35.625 2/ 4 Russian teams go to UEFA, let's see what happens next week in Uefa with the dutch teams. Would be surprised if Netherlands would end out of top 8.

Re: The battle for position 8
Author: Floridian Date: 14-12-2006, 00:37	Netherlands seems to be in the pole position to at least keep #8 spot - 4 teams already through to the knockout stages, and Russia with 2 teams now needs to get at least 6 point extra to close the gap.

Re: The battle for position 8
Author: Maluyaca Date: 14-12-2006, 23:39	Standings at the winter-break 8 Netherlands 6.166 5.416 12.000 7.583 6.500 37.665 4/ 7 9 Russia 3.625 5.875 10.000 10.000 6.125 35.625 2/ 4 Russia has a disadvantage of 4 victories. If they want to challenge the Netherlands I think the teams have to go far. Pretty sure that it will be the Netherlands who clinch place 8.

Re: The battle for position 8
Author: spenk Date: 14-12-2006, 23:41	before this week it looked pretty close, but the 4 victories from the netherlands made it look a lot more comfortable for them. With 4 out of 7 teams against 2 out of 4 there is not much difference caused by the number of teams competing for the countries either.

Re: The battle for position 8
Author: Krys Date: 15-12-2006, 01:11	I think both Holland and Russia will end this year about 9-10 points.. And Russia on the 9th. But probably it's better for Russia at the time.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 18-12-2006, 17:22

Going into the winter break Russia has to make up 9 points on Netherlands.

Despite their very tough draws the Dutch must be firm favourites to hold their position.

Of course this could change fast. If all the Dutch teams were to be eliminated (especially with a couple getting no points at all) & both Russian teams were to progress with CSKA looking "up for the cup" it could still get interesting. Indeed Ajax-Spartak would be an interesting last 16 "coefficient battle" if it should come to pass...

For any pessimistic Romanians out there (if this term isn't an oxymoron) zero points & total elimination in the next round would leave Russia needing 19 points & Netherlands 18 points to pass your total. Of course both of these are necessary for Romania to drop out of the top 8. Pretty unlikely.

Author: joaol
Date: 18-12-2006, 22:06

NO wayyy!!! I just wantn romania with six to watch them fall from the ladder!!...once I was clapping them for making such a sucessfull season last year bur after their reactions here?I?m anxious to see them palying with six teams and understand the real difficulty of european competitions...I?m sorry for holland and russia, who should be without a doubt in front of romania, such as belgium,ukraine, turkey, scotland, greee and maybe even israel

Author: Lupta_Steaua
Date: 19-12-2006, 03:41

jaoal,

Same as you (or maybe even more), I get pissed off at the comments that some Romanians bring in here. As I understand that a message full of hatred will come from the other side.

My reasonning for this, is the fact that everyone simply reduces Romania's succes to the fact that they have three teams. Than again if you compare the fact that Romania scored almost the same amount of points with 3 teams, as Portugal did with 6, is excused by the fact that Romania got their points in QR and in UEFA, and thus are not worth that much.

I suppose this is why Romanians react that harsh, but this is not a reason to hate a "whole" nation for being "arrogant", since the results that we had last year and this one have been soooo long waited.

As for the teams which are better that Romania, I just hope that it was because you were pretty upset.

Netherlands, yes, I do believe that they are at least the 6th footballing nation in Europe. They also have the best national team never to have won a World Cup. I support them in any game except against Romania

Russia, I agree they have a recent European Cup, Other than that, I am not sure they should to much. Interesting also to mention is the fact that a Russian Club won a European Cup only after the USSR broke up. The only clubs getting the honnors before were Dinamo Tbilisi (Georgia) and Dinamo Kiev (Ukraine). Other than that, not much done: 2 teams in CL - both dropping to UC. Not to mention Lokomotiv - Zulte.

As for all the rest that you mentioned, it is simple history, and as Romania was not there, we cannot judge.

Re: The battle for position 8
Author: antonio62tr Date: 19-12-2006, 09:36	No more Romania please...At least in this topic...

Re: The battle for position 8
Author: Ricardo Date: 19-12-2006, 10:31	As long as there is no hint that Netherlands or Russia is getting closer to 7th spot - and that will not happen before March - it is no use of talking about a country that is clearly abover these 2. So indeed no more Rom.. in this topic, please.