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6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 01-11-2006, 11:42	Hello again to people that missed me , for the rest Don`t hait me cause i`m beautiful :D

Author: doctor
Date: 01-11-2006, 11:54

5 Germany 39.649 5/ 7
6 Portugal 38.249 4/ 6
7 Romania 36.832 3/ 3
8 Netherlands 35.379 5/ 7
9 Russia 34.625 2/ 4

There are 1.4 points betwen Romania and Portugal ,both counrty will have 3 teams to play for them ,that means Portugall must score doble to keep the same distance.

Braga-very week team ,i saw the match betwen 4th team in Netherland and 4th team in Portugal ,they have simply no chanse to score points.

Porto have a hard game with Hamburg but they beated them 4-1 so Portugal score some points here.

Benfica isn`t in form this year,and only by luck they will make a draw.

I predict betwen 0-0.333 this week.

I`m a suporter aof Steaua so i will not speak about that game because i would say that Steaua will win.

Dinamo will win ,and Rapid same thing.

Minimum 1.333 points for Romania +30% we can go in front of Portugal after this game.

Author: dinamo_fan_4_ever
Date: 01-11-2006, 12:23
Edited by: dinamo_fan_4_ever
at: 01-11-2006, 12:24

netherlands are strongly coming from behind and i think they should end on 6th position because they are better than romania and portugal
romania can catch portugal but they need both rapid and dinamo to qualify because the portuguese teams in UCL are bringing serious points and will still bring, if braga also qualifies, (i think it wont happen) than romania will need to reach the final phases of the uefa cup, at least a semifinal to overcome portugal

edit:
germany is out of question, if werder dont qualify for UCL they are the main candidate for the uefa cup

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: dinamo_fan_4_ever Date: 01-11-2006, 12:44	holland (7): 2.857 --- 38.236 (5/7) psv 2p + 1p bonus az 3p ajax 7p feyenoord 4p herenveen 3p portugal (6): 1.500 --- 39.749 (3/6) benfica 3p porto 2p sporting 2p braga 2p romania (3) : 3.000 --- 39.832 (3/3) steaua 2p dinamo 4p rapid 3p would this be subjective or unprobable ?

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Philipp Date: 01-11-2006, 13:01	this week: Germany: Bayern: draw Bremen: win Hamburg: draw or loss Frankfurt: loss Leverkusen: not in action Portugal: Sporting: draw Benfica: win or draw Porto: win or draw Braga: win or draw Romania: Steaua: loss Dinamo: win Rapid: win Netherlands: PSV: win Ajax: win AZ: win or draw Heerenveen: win Feyenoord: not in action

Author: doctor
Date: 01-11-2006, 16:20

There is a intersting thing too, if the romanian teams Rapid ,and Dinamo will win and Steaua will make a draw ,we will egualize the best portugesse season and make a coeficient of 10,with 7 matches still to play in groups.I think that this year we will make a overall record if all 3 teams will qualify and pass next tour and there are chanses.

Many people on this forum said that last year performance was luck , ithink that after groups we will have a coeficient of minimum 12. That means that we can make easy a coeficient of 15 until the end of the year. I belive that now we proved a point disscosed last year ,it wasn`t luck , our footballl is in progress look at a chart to see wath progress we have done.

@dinamo_fan_4_ever

Netherland is best of this 3 countrys and they are close with Germany and France ,last year was same thing ,but they can not progress in front of Portugal due to intertoto teams ,they play with 2 teams each year in intertoto ,this year a team has qualified.

Don`t forget the Portugesee "vacation" ! Lame excuse.

Author: Auke
Date: 01-11-2006, 16:57
Edited by: Auke
at: 01-11-2006, 16:59

I don't think last years performance of the romanian teams has anything to do with luck. Besides that, there is no reason to call it luck, because one team in semifinal of UC, one in qf and one ending in groupstage of UC is not the best performance of a country i have ever seen...

But romania has high coefficient scores due to the for them at this moment lucky circumstances that they only have 3 teams in europe, and that they can earn a lot of points in easy qualification matches. The teams have gotten stronger the last few years, and they are making a big profit of that now in the coefficient ranking. This year they are way up in the ranking, and what are the prestations so far? 1 team on 3rd in CL and two teams in UC GS. Not the prestations (yet) you would expect from a team that scores so much points. All the credits to the Romanians though, this is how the coefficient system works and they fully deserve every point, just like the other teams.

Netherlands had one team in Intertoto, because scoring on the coefficient ranking is not what it is all about. How about the fans of a team that almost never plays in Europe. I think they would love to support their team abroad, and thats what football is about, and I think that the nr 4,5,6 and 7 of Romania think the same way. In a couple of years they will be the same burden to the romanian ranking as the lower ranked dutch teams are to the dutch ranking. So what, I have absolutely no problems with it, the biggest teams will make it through anyway, and if they don't, they don't deserve it.

Author: doctor
Date: 01-11-2006, 17:11

what about Portugal,why don`t do the same thing ,i belive that in their country there are teams that never played in Europe ,why don`t they profit from intertoto,i belive that this is a rule imposed by their federation.

They are afraid that they will lose points.

Romania circumstanses aren`t lucky because in their circumstanses are a large number of countrys ,why these countrys don`t profit from that? Because they can't ,and because they don`t have anything in advantage.

My opinion is that q rounds don`t bring points ,they stom teams from getting points. Real points u can earn in groups,Romania makes points because they are in groups not because they play q rounds,ofcourse they made 3 points from q rounds ,but the rest until 15-20 will be made in groups i don`t belive that 3 points that have been earned so hard are called lucky ,i will call q rounds bad luck.

Even if Romania had 4 teams ,and the 4 th team scored 4-5 points, our coeficient would be 12-13 ,and still this is a good performance ,and with elimiating points from q rounds very hard done u will get a coeficient of 10 ,so i think that still will remain a good year for Romania and this year we done the same thing.

i can`t wait Romania to get on 6th to profit for lucky circumstanses of having 2 teams with direct access and 3th team seeded in last round.That means a coeficient of 2-2.5 assured at the start of the year,remeber we had years (3-4) in witch we didn`t scored 2.5 in whole season.

Author: coppo
Date: 01-11-2006, 17:55

@ auke: wise words
@ doctor: face the facts. OK Romanian teams are doing it VERY WELL last year and this year, and Romania deserves to have one team directly in CL but you can't compare Romanian soccer with Portuguese or German soccer. I wouldn't be suprised if a Portuguese or a German team would play semi-final of the CL or win the UEFA cup. But I would fall down if one Romanian team would do so.
Next year we will see how strong Romanian soccer is... I calculate them (globally) as same level as Scottish soccer or Belgium or maybe Russia. Sorry doctor. By the way: good luck at Bernabeau. I think Capello will let the stars rest and perhaps against this B-team you'll get 1 point.

Nevertheless: Romania deserves to have more participants and I would say: welcome to the top of European soccer.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 01-11-2006, 19:42

I don't think Romania is already at the level of Portugal and Netherlands. Steaua did not had a chance to take points from a top-team, like Sporting did this year(win voer Inter) or PSV(draw over L'pool).
Romania has the luck that the current coefficient system, that I heared so much negatives about the last 1.5 years is helping them to get into the top 6. Their 3 teams played very well last year and do (sofar) so again this year. With next year only 4 team, they could make so many points in these 3 years, that it will cost until 2012 to get 'normal' again. Maybe at that time the Romanian teams have grown and they still have a spot in the top 6. For now the system that kept them down first is now keeping them up for the coming 6 years (at least).

One remark about Portuguese Intertoto teams - I don't think this has anything to do with coefficients. Teams decide if they want to play and if there are no teams, the FA will not subscribe. There are only a few people who know really how it is with the Uefa coefficient. I thought Cruyff did, as he mentions it now and then, but yesterday he said it would be a double win (of PSV), because then Turkey would not get the points and Turkey is the opposition in ranking. He apparently not knew that Turkey has fallen a bit in ranking.

Author: dinamo_fan_4_ever
Date: 01-11-2006, 20:40

again i agree with ricardo but its kind of a paradox, romania does not have a team as strong as the top 1-2 teams from portugal or netherlands, more exactly ajax, psv and porto , sporting, even benfica(last years benfica more than this year..) but all 3 teams from romania are at least equal with the next team as value and better than the others so its somewhere near the avarage value of theese 2 countryes and all 3 of us under germany.
even with 1 extra team and dividing by 4 and with that 4th team not gaining pts romania can get ahead of holland or portugal because there will be 1 teams or even 2 that play in the uefa cup and gain poins while the champion gains money but few pts in UCL.
6 teams will be too much because there wont be many pts from UCL and the other teams wont be seeded in R1 BUT it can go the other way, with timisoara and cfr by example playing much better than dinamo and steaua and qualifing in the UCL while seeded teams like dinamo steaua or rapoid playing in the uefa cup - this would be exactly like last year with 3 teams in uefa that gain pts and another 3 that get very few pts (comparable with the pts in qualifing rounds summed) in this case we would get arround 16.833/2 (dividing by 6 instead if 3) so probably 8.000 - 8.400

Author: badgerboy
Date: 01-11-2006, 20:59

Dinamo_fan

I would suggest that the top three teams in Romania have a little something to prove to put themselves on a par with the top three teams in both Portugal & the Netherlands.

Yes it can be fairly argued that Steaua's CL draw was extremely tough - but still two three goal defeats at home against any opposition can't be compared with PSV (drawing with Liverpool & qualified after four games) and Sporting - who have so far beaten Inter & drawn with Bayern.

Of course the strength of the three main Dutch & Portuguese teams fluctuates from year to year but all except Feyenoord (who you could say have been usurped - maybe temporarily - by AZ as the third power in Holland) have had at least one year in the last three with results at Champions League level I'd personally put above any Romanian achievements so far. That's not to say that one or more of the three Romanian teams wont reach those levels in the next few years - they just haven't yet.

I'd say it's currently impossible to judge the level of Romanian teams from 4th down. Portugal don't seem to have any great strength below this - though Braga may yet prove me wrong. Boavista don't look the relative force they were.

The Dutch do have more than three "European level" teams. Feyenoord don't look strong but are still up to winning games at UEFA Group stage level & Heerenveen also seem to have established themselves at this level now. Of course I'd put these two at someway below "Champions League Level" (as in expected to run the best teams close, even if they don't win). AZ's "competitiveness" at the next level would be interesting to see.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Philipp Date: 01-11-2006, 22:44	already a good week for Portugal...

Author: moro
Date: 01-11-2006, 23:08

As a romanian I'm now much more afraid the I was before. I'm afraid Werder in Uefa and Bayern in CL will do well, I'm afraid of those 5 dutch teams in good position, I'm afraid for Dinamo and Rapid tomorrow, etc. I hope Benfica will go 4-th, but... I'm afraid not... However, for all german and portuguese teams I hope they'll get the second spot in group rather than 3-rd, because in KO rounds they will face Chelsea, Lyon and the others, to go home.
The good news for us is that Steaua finished the tough games, they should be able to score points in next two rounds (because Lyon will play with the second team).
Rapid's and Dinamo's games thursday are, once again, crucials.
I look back and I see lots of tulips. Hate those flowers.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Pedro Date: 01-11-2006, 23:10	Keep on the good work doctor ... as always very amusing! Just a word for Celtic fans: You are the GREATEST.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Giuseppe Date: 01-11-2006, 23:15	Yes doctor is funny and overly optimistic, but he certainly isn't a clown like some other people

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: JC71 Date: 01-11-2006, 23:17 Edited by: JC71 at: 01-11-2006, 23:21	Doctor You really have a problem with Portugal. You can't honestly compare Portugal with Romania, Portugal has a much better record, by far, and I'm saying this knowing that Portugal will stay behind Romania in the next 2/3 years. But without q rounds and with 4 teams I don't expect much from Romania. wish all the fans were like the celtic ones you are always welcome

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: kevinantunes Date: 01-11-2006, 23:18	@Doctor Benfica with luck will get a draw? 3-0 Porto might get some points? 3-1 I asure you Braga will make some points. They did a very bad game against AZ but they are a good team. They have been on top in the portuguese league for the last years, and this year they are stronger than ever, IMO. I stink they will win both home game and make it to the next round. Lets see.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Pedro Date: 01-11-2006, 23:33	@Giuseppe You must be looking at a mirror certainly!

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Giuseppe Date: 01-11-2006, 23:41	Did I name you? No I didn't; I only said some people are clowns which is true. If you don't believe go to a circus and you'll see them.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Pedro Date: 02-11-2006, 00:09	Drink less and behave like a man.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Giuseppe Date: 02-11-2006, 00:14	Yes, your right. After a couple of beers it has hit me: I really, really don't like you as a person. I didn't know how to express myself. Satisfied?

Author: porto-1978
Date: 02-11-2006, 02:08

doctor (or maybe just a transference of personality to his psychiatrist) said: "why don`t they profit from intertoto,i belive that this is a rule imposed by their federation."~

I just want to say to the readers that this have nothing of true in it. No club appealed this season. Other seasons only Leiria appealed and gone always to IT being top-12 in league (rule sometimes invisible) reaching once a final (with Lille). Portuguese FA puted no chain in any club for any reason.

Personally to you, "doctor" (of dreamy alucinations, not a football doctor for sure) you?re talking about things you don?t know and talk as "it was like that". I just recomend you a good doctor. Beliefs... You believe too much. Headache by December.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: porto-1978 Date: 02-11-2006, 02:14	moro made a funny remark "The good news for us is that Steaua finished the tough games". You mean the good thing about the game was that the referee finished the game? (What an ambition!)

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: jpcccc Date: 02-11-2006, 04:27	6th spot ???!!! What happened to the 5th spot euphoria ? Does that mean you will make a 7th spot topic also, when Romania looses more often ? Or maybe an 8th, 9th spots (beware of Netherlands and CSKA...) ? Losing that much hope can cause depression...

Author: Osirius
Date: 02-11-2006, 06:48

to Doctor
As for me I'm not from those who says that romanian teames had luck last year,they really performed very good but in UEFA CUP.

This year Steaua plays in CL and we can see that these two tournaments are quite different(though I admit that Lyon and Real are very strong opponents for any team),UEFA Cup teames are very stong as well,let's remember what teames we were thinking to become the UEFA CUP holder last year(SHALKE this year is already out,Marseille as well,Hamburger is very poor in CL).And we can say as well thet the opponents of romanian teams have quite different attitude than it was last year and this year it will be very hard to be on the same lavel as last year but not impossible.

So my conclusion is after next two rounds of UEFA Cup we will see the real possibility of Romania.

Author: moro
Date: 02-11-2006, 07:34

I admit now that football is a drug: look at portuguese people, they finally got some points and now they're all euphoric! Ladies, romanians are at only three wins back! Who knows, maybe tonighet only one win back! Don't forget that Porto can hope max 1 point in two games left, Benfica 2 and Sporting 2 (best case for each), Braga maybe 3, wich means Ro needs 9 points from now on in 9 games (4 at home). We can do this even playing pretty bad football and scoring own-goals!
On the other hand, it's true that we need another season like the last one to secure 6-th spot, mostly because of dutchs.
Steaua played very well against real yesterday. You people forgot this is first time in 10 years we play CL, more than that, against two +++ teams, things will improve every year.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: moro Date: 02-11-2006, 08:12	I forgot to say that Por, Ger or Ned, you can do your best every round, it is not enough, you must hope that romanians teams looses. You can win all matches, we can still catch you. Boow.

Author: cska
Date: 02-11-2006, 09:04

Doctor
My forecast is that this year after the initial flying start Bulgaria and Romania will sink back to their original positions in the beginning of the season - Romania will be 9th and Bulgaria will end up (in this case "down") on 17th.
This year UC faced no big upsets and now all 40 teams are really strong. I guarantee you that none of the 24 to go through will be a weak team and thus Steaua will have not such great chances to reach SF as last year. This year, instead of Betis or M'boro, they will face teams like Tottenham or Ajax. This year, even in GS you can hardly find a real outsider. So, it will be harder for Rapid and Dinamo to go through (also having in mind their tough draw and especially the schedule for home and away).
@Ricardo
Some posts above you mention that Steaua did not manage to get points from the big teams like Portuguese and Dutch teams did.
However, the system of averaging points per number of teams means that Steaua DOES NOT need to be like PSV or Porto. It is enough if Romanian teams are on the midpoint between top Portuduese and Dutch teams and their weaker teams. So, if Rapid is weaker than Porto, but stronger than Nacional Madeira, then it's OK for Romania. The point here is that Porto and Nacional together must earn more points on average than Rapid (combination of teams is for example, you can average any strong and weak teams of these countries).

Author: doctor
Date: 02-11-2006, 09:17

wooooow

How many portugesse people are in this forum ,you have rised like mushroms after rain.Excelent performance this year with 2 direct access and one team seeded in CL q3 you have achived the miraculos performance of having a coeficient half of hours.

I want to congaluate u for the excelent matches this week , but i don`t depend of your wins,u can win the CL and UC but if we play the semifinals in UC with 2 teams and one team in qf still we will be on six.

SO u had an excelent week,we had a bad night with Steaua and we are very deissapointed but we have 2 more teams.

Befoe the round u had 1.4 points in front of us,u had an excelent week 2 wins and 1 draw from 3 matches,and still look what will happen after this week,yes u will be surprised the differnce wil be under 1 point. :D

Author: doctor
Date: 02-11-2006, 09:27

@cska very good points u prove there ,u are right .

Ajax ,Totenham very stron teams,teams from Romania don`t have to play like Porto and PSV.

Last year we had 2 teams in last 32 of Uefa ,this year we can have 3 combined with 2 teams reaching last 16 or one reaching the 1/4 very possible. We will have a coeficient very close to last year. We don`t have to score 16.8.

I will give u a example if u score 16 Portugal will need to score 11 that means one of their team to win UC or CL and other 2 to play very very well.I doubt this can happen(a coeficient of 11) their best seasons where when they winned UC and CL and they had 10.

For a coeficient of 16 we will need after this week 15 points ,that means 5 points/team ,each team has 2 more games to play ,Dinamo 3. If all teams win all games in enough this will not happen ,but i only wished to point how easy we can score 16. Let`s say each team will score half of points.That means in next stage 2 of them must q or on of them must reach the qf and all teams must q.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 02-11-2006, 10:38

@cska (& doctor)
It was my point to say that despite that they are(/will be) ahead of Portugal & Netherlands in the country ranking, I don't think that Romanian teams have the same quality as the Portuguese/Dutch teams.
The ranking system is as it is and according to that they are above those countries, but looking at it from a different perspective (= looking at what their teams did against top-teams) I think they are not there yet.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: gone Date: 02-11-2006, 11:21	We are not there yet, but we're not that far. Didn't Rapid kicked feyenoord last year? Or who's foult is it that Ajax failed to qualify for the CL?

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: helvete Date: 02-11-2006, 11:23	doctor Half of hours?? Yee and I always thought that a footballmatch was 90 minutes.....

Author: badgerboy
Date: 02-11-2006, 12:59

Moro wrote:

"I admit now that football is a drug: look at portuguese people, they finally got some points and now they're all euphoric!"

Sorry Moro but that's a bit rich coming from a Romanian. You guys aren't "excitable" at all are you?

"Don't forget that Porto can hope max 1 point in two games left, Benfica 2 and Sporting 2 (best case for each)"

It's this sort of statement that causes most of the arguments. If you write "I think that Porto..." then to me it's fair enough. You're stating an opinion that others are free to agree or disagree with. But you word your statement as if it's a fact - which quite clearly it isn't. This combined with statements along the lines of: "Romania will get 4 points this week - absolutely 100%", again leaving out words like "I think" or "I hope", are why some people are pleased when Romanian teams lose. The forecasts are perceived as arrogant and generally it's seen as nice (at least in English culture) to see arrogant people "brought down a peg or two".

Actually the maximum the three Portuguese CL teams can "hope" for is 12 points and a coefficient of 2.000. Portuguese people are allowed as much "hope" as Romanians after all. Of course them actually getting this is unlikely but to give 5/12 as the "best case"? I can't see how it's "impossible" for Porto to win at home against Arsenal or away in Moscow. Sporting already beat Inter once - & this weeks matches have proved that teams don't necessarily get a better result just because they are at home. Manchester United just lost to FC Kobenhavn so are hardly invincible and in addition might already be qualified by the time Benfica visit Old Trafford.

Just to end by saying this post doesn't mean I'm "taking sides" in any argument between Portuguese & Romanians. I merely chose Moro's post as an example to respond to. I try to point out where some of the acrimony might come from in the hope not that people lose their enthusiasm or optimism but maybe they post these in a more conciliatory manner.

Of course I know some people quite like to wind other people up - which is why they post in the way they sometimes do. One Portuguese poster - who was already "named & shamed" yesterday springs immediately to mind - though I've no doubt there are others who do the same in a much more clever & subtle way.

Peace to all and good luck to all UEFA Cup teams today.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 02-11-2006, 13:25	I just wanted to point wht cska alredy said ,indiferent how good portugesse teams play,they must combine with inssucces of the Romanian teams. Today our teams our teams will prove that indferent how portugesse teams will play we will close up. Don`t forget 1.4 points before this week ,Portugal had done perfect and we will se if Romania will still close up.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: spenk Date: 02-11-2006, 13:34 Edited by: spenk at: 02-11-2006, 13:34	Football is all about insucces of other teams. If you want to win, another team needs to be insuccesfull. Luckily there are no teams or countries that are never insuccesfull, otherwise it would be very boring watching football and talking about coefficients.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 02-11-2006, 13:34	@jpccc 5th or 6 th place what`s the difference ,k if u want than have it your way,5th spot isn`t out of reach. I assure u that u will not have another topic 7 th 8th or 9th Thank u for the correction

Author: doctor
Date: 02-11-2006, 13:51

@JC71
I don`t anything against Portugal .Here i am speaking about Romania getting on 6th .i did very bad predictions with portugesse teams because i find their footbal boring.For example i can`t see how can i predict a draw at Bayern or a win of Benfica after losing 3-0 ,i`ve just been objective and i was wrong what`s the big deal? I assure u that several people that i know have predicted a win of Celtic.

@kevinantunes

I hope that Braga will win and i hope Romania will be on 6th after this year i don`t care who will be on 5th Netherland and Germany look very strong to me compare with Portugal ,i`m speaking here about players ,teams infrastructure,records,history,presnet and evrithing what u want.

I can`t compare Romnia with Portugal because i saw 2 matches in witch 5 th team in our championship beated the omologs in Portugal . Steaua was their first apearance in CL,and they did a lot of mistakes ,Carlos with Lyon ,Carlos and Saban with Real (1st match) , Nicolita with Real(2st match) very big mistakes that bringed us to 3rd position in group.

@porto 1978

U don`t deserve an answer,you are ignored.

@Osirius

I respect your post ,i think u have somre right there,still there are so me good teams in UC,that can play in CL and it`s a hard cup.
I only saw what G14or 16 means this teams are machines ,very hard to beat. Still this teams are only from top 3 countrys ,Lyon and Bayern.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 02-11-2006, 13:58

Doctor is right about this aspect of course.

Current Ranking:

Germany 39.649
Portugal 38.916
Romania 36.832
Netherlands 35.379
Russia 34.875

Maximum available coefficient to all teams in all remaining group matches.

Germany 3.428 (24/7)
Portugal 3.000 (18/6)
Romania 6.000 (18/3)
Netherlands 4.285 (30/7)
Russia 2.000 (8/4)

This would give:

Germany 43.077
Romania 42.832
Portugal 41.916
Netherlands 39.664
Russia 36.875

Of course no country is likely to achieve maximum points but the above does show what is "possible". I might do some more "analysis" after today's games - then again I might not!

Author: moro
Date: 02-11-2006, 14:00

@ badgerboy
I don't understand you man, when I say "porto will get maw 1 point in two games" of course is not a law, and it's not even sure, it's only my guess. If you want everybody here to talk like in courts of law, you're wrong.
I'm not arrogant at all, u should not judge people reading thems football opinions.
When I first discovered this forum I thought it was a big waste of time, now I like to share things with others.
So Portugal WILL MAKE 1.140 coef from now on, u can bet on it, while Romania will make about 3. So we'll be equals.
By the way, I never said out teams will win today, I would be pleased with a draw in Tel Aviv, and I still don't know the real value of Dinamo, so I'll be stressed-dead for the game against Besiktas.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 02-11-2006, 14:07	@Badgerboy Good analyss,if u will not continue it ,i will 1 more aspect that can affect the coeficients ,are the number of matches that teams from a country will play, Netherland 30 ,it`s harder for them to win it all,Germany 24 still har,Romania and Portugal 18 almost equal chanses.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: antonio62tr Date: 02-11-2006, 14:10	I really like topics of doctor and also possibility of Romania to be 6th.. In reality i only watched Real-Steau game and i can say that i am not satisfied by Romanians.And interesting to see Romania is raising while Romanian players in Turkey going worse and worse. So i support Romania at this race....

Author: spenk
Date: 02-11-2006, 14:19

I don't think the number of matches does mather. It's about the average number of matches they win. If all teams would be of equal strenth (otherwise it would be impossible to explain), there is a smaller chance of winning 15 matches, then winning 9 matches, true. But (all teams equal strength) the most likely thing to happen would be winning half of the matches and that would give both countries the same coefficient result. Also, if a country with a lot of matches loses one match, that doesnt mather a lot. If a country with a few matches loses one, that would make a bigger difference. So one win of Romania would need two wins of the Netherlands to keep pace. But one loss of Romania also gives Netherlands space to lose two!

Author: doctor
Date: 02-11-2006, 14:38

@spenk

U are right teams aren`t same lvl so even that counts.
U are right even with 1 win of Romania = 2 wins of let`s say Portugal
and 1 lose of Match = 2 lose pf Portugal.

It`s shone in history that is more good to have less teams than a large number of teams in coeficient meaning.So this calculation advantages Romania.

One more aspect Portugal has 2 defeats in each week because they have 2 teams out. So that means that Steaua lose yesterday is covered. Sporting draw with let`s say a draw of Braga. ROmania will need 1 win and 1 draw very likely to hhappen,if Romania will make 2 wins there will be a big difference because Romania has a small number of teams,f Braga wins this will not have so big impact on coeficient.One more thing Dinamo Staied 1 match ,so if they win in this match this will count like to portugesse teams,this points can`t be recovered by Portugal.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 02-11-2006, 14:43

Moro wrote:

"@ badgerboy
I don't understand you man, when I say "porto will get maw 1 point in two games" of course is not a law, and it's not even sure, it's only my guess. If you want everybody here to talk like in courts of law, you're wrong.
I'm not arrogant at all, u should not judge people reading thems football opinions".

Excellent response. Exactly what I was hoping for. The point I was trying to get across in my original post was about peoples perceptions - or maybe misconceptions? I wasn't saying you were an arrogant person but that the way your post was worded came across this way. And I'm a "native English speaker" so I reserve the right to make this judgment! Nothing to do with talking "like in courts of law" just with "good manners" and "respect for others".

I often find it difficult to "interpret" certain posts on here - even from other English people & certainly from people who write the language as if they were English. Is Panda joking or serious here? Have I really made Ricardo angry or is he just pulling my leg? This "misinterpretation" is obviously far greater when you bring in factors like different cultures & different levels of English.

So I simply suggested a different use of language to illicit a better response. I can also now say to people - please try to bear in mind when you read posts that might appear arrogant or inflammatory they may not be what they seem. So no need to react badly to them.

Author: doctor
Date: 02-11-2006, 14:46

On one topic i`ve been atacked by a strange guy ,that i wasn`t corect in my prediction at Benfica,i will respond him.

How can i predict a win of a team that haven`t scored a goal in 3 matches,and losed 2 weeks ago at same team with 3-0.Many things can happen but u can`t conclusion from this that i have something with Portugal. At Porto i said win or draw because they played in Germany ,and Sporting with Bayern was a sensational performance from them,they lost at home with Bayern and everyone knows that in Germany it`s hard to play , i was wtong again but again i was only objective.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 02-11-2006, 14:53

Doctor wrote:

"1 more aspect that can affect the coeficients ,are the number of matches that teams from a country will play, Netherland 30 ,it`s harder for them to win it all,Germany 24 still har,Romania and Portugal 18 almost equal chanses".

As I said before more detailed analysis will wait until after today's games. At least then it stays relevant for at least a couple of weeks!

But although you have a point I think the "competition level" is also very important. For me it looks OK for the Netherlands because 4 of their teams are in the UEFA Cup. This compensates a little for them having "more points to lose".

For the same reason I'd give Romania a slight advantage over Portugal if you're talking about how many points out of 18 they are likely to get.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 02-11-2006, 15:24	I expect with entuziasm the analyss :D

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 02-11-2006, 17:47	Hapoel-Rapid 1-1 Fine game until now,good team this Hapoel... Great oportunity for Rapid,then Hapoel scored,after 5 minutes Rapid equalized.

Author: Frk_Slb
Date: 02-11-2006, 17:52

@doctor

�...i did very bad predictions with portugesse teams because i find their footbal boring.For example i can`t see how can i predict a draw at Bayern or a win of Benfica after losing 3-0...�

How can you say portuguese�s football is boring, we have one of the most evoluted football in technique not the simply kick to forwards as many ones.
If you saw Glasgow game, you would�t predict SLBenfica�s lost. Benfica dominated that game as this, we didn?t deserv to lose, but it�s football.

�...if we play the semifinals in UC with 2 teams and one team in qf still we will be on six.�

Still dreaming... Portugal last four seasons reached 2 UC finals, 1 CL final and 1CL quarterfinal..And Romania? Steua did a nice job last season and other seasons?

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 02-11-2006, 18:16	very week play by rapid Hapoel-Rapid 2-1 @Frk we will see when we will have 6 teams ,3 in CL.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: niti_rapid Date: 02-11-2006, 18:25	i don't think we'll make that 6 th spot doc. i am a rapid fun but with such defenders.... let's hope for a 2-2 lucky draw...

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 02-11-2006, 18:28	u are right there,Rapid plays very bad in defense very big mistakes done there, anything is possible we have 3 strokers there hope they will do their job.

Author: porto-1978
Date: 02-11-2006, 18:33

Frk_Slb : dont?forget to add to that list of achievements in last 4 seasons the Semi Final of UC (by Boavista). It may not be a great achievment but to others it can be an historical moment and make them thing that are the best. And examples are so near...

Of course Macedonia could have done the same record if their 6th club played in Europe because everyone knows that the 6th club of a country is always the better and the most able to win the CL.

Now, seriously... I have nothing against Romania i always liked their football at nations and club level. But some romanians here talk about portuguese football and their teams as if... i don?t know... i just know that you don?t give the credit they deserve. I don?t get worry about it that?s why i usually don?t answer or don?t even read. I get sick of this kind of threads, i learn almost nothing from them and it?s everything about beliefs.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 02-11-2006, 18:41	Hapoel-Rapid 2-2 ,Rapid will score another goal ,hope their defense will recover,they simply stink.

Author: moro
Date: 02-11-2006, 18:49

@ badgerboy
I'm glad cause I feel some good energy here.
I remember I was 14 after Steaua's win in CL, I was Dinamo's fan and had great verbal conflicts with really good friends (Steaua's fans) about football, but still good friends. I think hearts accelerates, pre-fibrilation status appears when talking about football, it feels good even if 2-3 neurons are burned.
I think on a forum you can't ask peoples to put ideeas like at work or school, there's enough stress outside, let's talk free here. With good sense, of course.
I'm listening Rapid-Hapoel, I'm having stress-induced diarheea. 2-2 now, but Rapid doing, as I know them, lot of mistakes in defense, while Hapoel seems to be a weak team. Of course, this is subjectif (romanian comment).

Author: Frk_Slb
Date: 02-11-2006, 18:55

@porto-1978

You are right, I forgot Boavista�That season was amazing, we had 2 teams in UC semifinals, but only FCPorto reached the final and won it! It would be a beautiful final with 2 teams from Porto!

I also have nothing against Romania but when I read many replies pushing portuguese football down it seems not fair, because I know is not like that. I understand romanian fans are entusiastic with romanians teams perfomance and with the possibility of reaching 6th place in the ranking, but some value must be given to portuguese teams, as also german and netherland teams, in the same battle.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 02-11-2006, 19:23	very week team Hapoel very poor defensive play by Rapid , Hapoel had a penalty but the referee didn`t saw it, so we know 1 team that will not qualify that team is Hapoel,next match will be a decesive one for the group Rapid-Mlada.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Ricardo Date: 02-11-2006, 20:14	If you say Hapoel was weak. And also Hapoel should have won-that's on another thread and also what I heared somewhere else. THis means Rapid is even weaker -> Hapoel&Rapid out (but so is Heerenveen, so Netherlands is not anymore in the race for 6th )

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: moro Date: 02-11-2006, 20:22	Ricardo, if Mlada wont win tonight against Pana and Rapid wins next round (at home against Pana) - Rapid will take 3-rd place. And all this seems possible,no, probable. On the other hand, Dinamo has a very difficult match, the're 10 mens defending, they must score or they'll loose this decisive game.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: badgerboy Date: 02-11-2006, 20:42	It sounds incredible to me. Besiktas away are attacking like mad. Against Tottenham in their own stadium they did nothing. How unpredictable is this UEFA Cup? Wisla also drawing in France at the moment. Zulte scored early again....

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 02-11-2006, 20:53	@Ricardo what`s your age ? Mathematics{> Footbal Very hard game ,bad condition ,rain in Bucharest and about 0 grade C The score is Dinamo-Besiktas 1-1

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: badgerboy Date: 02-11-2006, 21:09	AZ came back impressively in the end - 5-2. Livorno managed to equalise late in Belgrade- finished 1-1. Well deserved win for Odense. I didn't expect Besiktas to give Dinamo much of a game after seeing them vs Spus - nor Wisla in Nancy after seeing Wisla-Blackburn and the latter best Schalke. Lens one up, Zulte two up, Rangers one up. Off to watch the Newcastle game now.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Ricardo Date: 02-11-2006, 21:16	Yes Badger, isn't that fantastic? As it was my birthday last weekend I guess you owe me a present if you want to know my age. hint: next year it will be a prime

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Ricardo Date: 02-11-2006, 21:26	good news for Romania: Dinamo got a penalty and are now 2-1 up in 90th minute

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: gabriel1 Date: 02-11-2006, 21:57 Edited by: gabriel1 at: 02-11-2006, 21:59	real madrid-steaua bucuresti 1-0 hapoel tel-aviv-rapid bucuresti 2-2 dinamo bucuresti-besiktas istanbul 2-1 ...+1p tonight for Romania... so, Romania still in top with 9p in country ranking this year...

Author: niti_rapid
Date: 02-11-2006, 22:47

yes
but it will be enough for that 6 th place?
portuguese teams are doing very very well.
let's hope all third from the champions league will qualify for the last 16 from position nomber 2 in their groups.
maybe there they'll broke their heads(chelsea, milan, lyon, liverpool, bayern, manchester, arsenal, valencia)
i think russia now is out of question(with spartak almoust out)
the netherlands depends of two things: psv's position in their group for the last 16 and feyenoord's job
for us, the romanians it will be a trully wonder if we'll finish 6 th
best regards

Author: Ricardo
Date: 02-11-2006, 23:29

It's not been a very good week for the Dutch. They managed 3 wins and 1 loss, that was ok, but Heerenveens loss means they are very far away from qualifying. They'll need a win in the last match agsint a hopefully already qualified Lens- I hope Heerenveen will do better than today - I fear the worst.
Besides the ok Dutch performances, the Portuguese and Romanian teams did very well. Though I am not convinced yet of the progress of the Romanian teams, the Portuguese teams will qualify.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: kevinantunes Date: 02-11-2006, 23:34	"Braga-very week team ,i saw the match betwen 4th team in Netherland and 4th team in Portugal ,they have simply no chanse to score points." As long as these predictions stay accurate, the portuguese can still dream.

Author: dinamo_fan_4_ever
Date: 03-11-2006, 00:05

braga just beat 4-0 slovan (which didnt seem a bad team until now) and need 1 more win, they also beat chievo so i think braga is a good team that didnt play 100% at AZ, after rapid - nacional and rapid- teal aviv, i can say braga is as good as dinamo or rapid and that romania can get in front of portugal at the coeff but portuguese football is bettert han romanian one, mentality at least portugal is so much over us

p.s.
maybe next years matches in UCL will change romanian mentality and experience

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 03-11-2006, 00:16	Exelent scor from Portugal 3 wins and 1 draw from 4 matches still they managed to keep the same diffenrece over Romanian teams. So now they must do the same thing and hope that Romanian teams will play very bad like this week (bad results). They can`t keep the differnece in my opinio ,or Germany can`t doesn`t count to me.

Author: Overgame
Date: 03-11-2006, 00:48
Edited by: Overgame
at: 03-11-2006, 05:55

Rapid and Dinamo are not qualified yet.
If Dinamo get one (or more) point in Brugge, they probably will qualify, if they don't : they won't. Easy equation.

Rapid's case is more complicated :
Pana 6p 2g
Rapid 2p 2g
PSG 1p 1g
Hapoel 1p 2g
Boleslav 0p 1g

Even with a victory versus Boleslav, Rapid could need 1 more point in Greece, if Boleslav ends with 0 point. We'll see.

Steaua is almost in UC.

Portgual.

Sporting almost need a win in Milan to keep chances to be 2nd. A draw could be enough if Munchen 'plays' the last game, but i highly doubt. Moscow is almost sure to end 4th, so Sporting should be 3rd and plays UC.

Benfica's case is weird : close of 2nd place and close of 4th. They should end with 7 points and be 3rd, but who knows in that weird group ?

Porto's case is difficult to predict : 3 teams for 2 places, Porto's playing Moscow away and Arsenal at home (Arsenal will probably need a draw to progress). If Porto wins in Moscow, Porto will be 2nd. Another result will probably means the 3rd place.

Braga is impossible to predict now, the last game versus Grasshopers will be decisive.

The 3 teams from CL are able to win the UC, and score a lot of points. If one teams from Romanioa fails to qualify, Portugal will end 6th for sure.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 03-11-2006, 08:25

Anybody cared to have a look at next MD(CL&UC) matches? I guess it will be 'Romanian' week
Germany (English connection??):
Bayern plays Spartak away, though Spartak is bound to become 4th, it will be a tough nut to crack, especially away!
Bremen plays at home vs Chelsea. If not even Barca can win...
HSV goes to Arsenal - nothing to add
Leverkusen plays at home against Tottenham
They must be lucky to get 3 points(0.457)

Portugal:
Porto plays CSKA away this is a direct fight for next round CL. Porto must win this to progress, but if they can....
Sporting goes to Inter. Inter has recovered and by a win will qualify.
Benfica plays Kopenhavn at home- asl ManUtd & Ajax if that's easy
Braga plays away against Sevilla - last years UC winner
Also they probably get 3 points(0.500)

Romania:
Steaua plays at home with(?) Kiev. A point is enough to qualify for UC. It's the match where they can show they belong in the CL!
Rapid plays Boleslav at home. Rapid needs a win to qualify. Boleslav is not the team that can stop them
Dinamo plays away against Brugge - the most difficult of the 3, while Dinamo is the best of the 3
4 points will they get(1.333)

Netehrlands:
PSV plays away against Liverpool. The fight for the first spot. Only when Liverpoool is not interested PSV can get a point.
Ajax plays Sparta away - Sparta seems not to be in good form. Ajax is.
Feyenoord plays at home agaisnt Blackburn - Feyenoord has still a lot to improve, and Blackburn is favorite to win this group
Heerenveen plays away against Parma. After last night that's clear I suppose
2-3 points(0.285-0.428)

Author: doctor
Date: 03-11-2006, 09:43

So at the end of the groups there will be a close battle,i didn`t expect a good season of Portugal esspesaly after last year.

Still a success of some Portugesse teams and some Romanian teams means a insucess of German teams,i can`t imagin how it will look Romania in front of Germany.

One of the decesive games will be Dinamo-Leverkusen.

Dinamo reached a new record 20 wins and 1 draw in 21 official matches. They are in last 16 in Romanian cup ,leaders in championship with 13 victories and 12 points in front, in UC they have 1 victory from 1 game.

LAst match they wil play in England ,Totenham almost sure will be q so i think that they have real chanses to q.

Rapid case is very complicated,but they need a win now.

Author: spenk
Date: 03-11-2006, 11:09

I'm a little bit more optimistic in most cases:

Germany:
Bayern 1-2 points
Bremen 1 point (not even barca could win at bremen...)
HSV 0
Leverkusen 1
I think they will get 4 points (they are still germans!): 0,57

Portugal:
Porto 1 point
Sporting 0-1 Inter is not a constant factor
Benfica 2
Braga 0-1
I think 4 points: 0,66

Romania:
Steaua 1-2
Rapid 1-2
Dinamo 0-1
I think 4 points: 1,33

Netherlands:
PSV 1 (PSV in this form can get a point everywhere)
Ajax 2
Feyenoord 1
Heerenveen 0-1
I think 4 points: 0,57

Indeed this will be a Romanian week. The 2 weeks after that will not be romanian though, with tough matches for them and only 2 teams playing every week. There is the chance for the other countries to regain a little ground.

Author: dragos_popa17
Date: 03-11-2006, 12:35

I think the one thing that's clear is that it's going to be close, a photo finish. Germany and Portugal have a good lead in front of Romania and Netherlands, but not good enough to rely on that alone.
Romania benefits from having only three teams in European Competitions this year, all with good experience.
Netherlands, on the other side, have the advantage of 4 teams playing in the UEFA Cup, where points are gathered much easier, while PSV, their only CL competitor, have already qualified in the last 16. Even so, the distance between them and Portugal could prove to be to difficult to recover.
As for the leading countries, Germany and Portugal both have teams capable of good display, that would keep their advantage and their spot in the rankings.
Altough changes might not happen this season, I think that by the end of next season, at least Romania will go into the first 6. Mainly because they will have to replace a coefficient of only 2.166 while Germany and Portugal will replace 9.142, respectively 10.750.
I won't comment on the strenght of Portuguese, German or Dutch teams because, quite frankly, being from Romania, I don't know them good enough to do that. It takes a little more than a list of results to understand the abilities of a team. What I can say though, is that the three Bucharest teams from Romania have been constantly growing in the past years, both on and of the pitch.
The weakest of them at this time seems to be Rapid. They haven't been playing their best game this year, but they could win against any team in the UEFA Cup on a good day.
On the other side, Dinamo Bucharest have been having a great season, 20 wins and a draw in 21 games, mostley because the board memebers finally decided to start working togheter and stop changing players. If they keep it up, they could do great things in Europe, because as a team, Dinamo have always had great potential, they only lacked leadership and ambition.
Steaua, the most experienced of the three is probably the only Romanian team in over 16 years capable of winning an European Trophy. They have a great squad, an excellent manager and a rich and ambitious owner. Don't be surprised if you see them in the UEFA Cup semi's again this year. If not even further.

Author: doctor
Date: 05-11-2006, 10:33

Let`s say that al 4 teams from Portugal will q inUC ,there are good chanses for that to happen,and Romanian teams qualify also for last 32.Almost for sure there will be a clash.I think this fight will be decided by a draw.If best team in Portugal FC Porto will play agains weekest team from Romania Rapid,they have good chanses that Portugal win the fight for 6th. But If Steaua or Dinamo will play with Braga and Benfica almost sure Romania will be on 6th.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: helvete Date: 05-11-2006, 13:50	Benfica? Come on. I can?t see any Romanian team good enough to beat them. The only team of the 4 portuguese that can loose against any of the romanian is Braga. And even that is doubtful.

Author: cinebelul
Date: 05-11-2006, 16:13
Edited by: cinebelul
at: 05-11-2006, 16:16

Certainly, if portuguese teams "play" like Benfica against Uni Craiova 1983 or against Steaua 1988, by lying down after every contact with an opponent, no team has any chance to play football against them.
I see rapid having good chances against Por teams, because their way to play fits to the portuguese style of playing.. Braga would be only a "sparing partner" for every romanian team this season...

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: helvete Date: 05-11-2006, 16:27	cinebelul Rapid can play what ever style they want. They simply dont have the quality to win Porto, Sporting or Benfica. None of the Romanian teams does. Thats a fact. Look att what teams they beat the last two years. I guess they could beat Braga but I wouldnt be so sure. Be realistic at least.

Author: cinebelul
Date: 05-11-2006, 17:12
Edited by: cinebelul
at: 05-11-2006, 17:16

You have also to be realistic. Portuguese teams are not more what they were in the last years. Really, we were happy in september to have Steaua in a group with Porto, Benfica or Sporting, because this groups become accessible by having Por teams.. Steaua from last year (autumn)were able to sweep away Porto from last year..You have also to look from which teams were beaten the portuguese teams (Artmedia ?!?)
Don"t dream from the past times yet!

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: gabriel1 Date: 05-11-2006, 17:31 Edited by: gabriel1 at: 05-11-2006, 17:33	Romania still fight for 5th place in country ranking...{2p

Author: edieseb
Date: 05-11-2006, 17:44

Well, it's a fact that at every draw, groups or eliminatory stages, romanian teams want a draw with for example an english, french, portugese and newer, turkish or an ex-soviet country, rather than an italian, spanish or a scandinavian team. It has something to do with the play style of these countries and, of course, past results.
So when somebody said that romanians wanted a portugese team in their group it's because of avoiding the spanish or italian teams for ex. It doesn't have much to do with Steaua being better that Porto or vice-versa. I'm sure it's true the other way around as well.
At this point I guess the three mentioned portugese teams would have a slight advantage on all three romanian teams, mainly because of the experience (and Steaua saw the importance of the CL experience very well this year by not being able to cope with the pressure and losing points easy by making simple mistakes - with more experience they would get more points or at least they would have put a hell of a fight as they have good players), but I don't think the value of these teams is that much different. I'm pretty sure a game between Porto and Steaua could go either way with the most probable outcome being a draw. What makes the difference will be a lot of factors like experience, present form, good/bad day, individual mistakes of players in either team, the state of mind you go into the game with (already qualified for the next stage), missing key players...
Like somebody said before, there's a big chance of a portugese team meeting a romanian team in the Last32 of UC in spring, but unless we see scores of 3-0 and 4-0 I stil don't think it will tell us too much about the differences between these teams. Look at the last year encounters between the romanians and germans. Advantage Romania, but that's not to say Romania is really better or worse. It's football for God's sake, anything can happen.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: edieseb Date: 05-11-2006, 17:55	In other words: you have 100 Euro in your pocket and it's Wednesday. There are 8 CL games that you can bet on and one of them is Porto - Steaua or Steaua - Sporting. Are you willing to risk your money on this particular game or do you think there would be other games with more predictible outcomes? I personally don't like to gamble anyway, but for sure I wouldn't do it on such a game.

Author: edieseb
Date: 05-11-2006, 18:07

And again, that's unless I would know that either one of the teams has 4-5 key players missing because of suspension/injury or if I know that one of them is resting it's key players because of being already qualified and having a key match in the championship next weekend. On a normal day though, I tolf you what I would do.

By the way, Steaua fans, is Mirel Radoi going to play in the match against Dinamo Kiev? They were saying that he would've been able to enter the pitch against Real, but they didn't wanna risk a reinjury. Will he play against Kiev then? My God, I'm so curious to see the games against Kiev and Lyon with him on the pitch to see if not having him and Iacob was decissive for the outcome of this group.
I see the romanian newspapers don't say anything about him at this moment. After the last defeat against Real, it's like everybody is mourning and like nothing matters anymore.

Author: doctor
Date: 05-11-2006, 18:52

I just said that Benfica and Braga are moe accesible at the moment for the Romanian teams ,and rapid for Portugesse teams.
Dinamo and Steaua Vs Porto and Sporting woould be to close matches and i don`t know if i can find a result in my mind.

@Helvete did u see what Romanian teams did last year? U can speak anymore of superiority of Porto and Sporting in front of Steaua because u can`t bring a solid argumenent.

Still i find Benfica and Braga 2 teams that can be beated more easly then other too... I would be relife if Dinamo wil play against Benfica and Steaua against Braga,but as u said anything can happen.

@Helvete again for u

In our championship Otelul beated Steaua 2-1 2 weeks ago.Now Rapid beated Otelul 7-0. And i said that Rapid is a team more easy to beat then other 2 ,but u can`t be certain of that. Why do u find so hard to belive that Benfica could be eliminated by Rapid or Dinamo? and Braga could be eliminated by Steaua?

I don`t think that Braga will q ,but still this could happen.

And about Porto ,Benfica and Sporting my opinion is that one of them will q in CL last 16(because enormous coeficient they had all 3, and because of the advantage being in 2 pot) ,one of them in UC last 32 and 1 of them will go home.

That means 1 team in CL and 1 team in UC. They had an explosion this week and made you dream but please wake up .

Author: Frk_Slb
Date: 05-11-2006, 19:33

Comparing Porto, Sporting and Benfica with Romanian teams? Let me laugh...There is nothing to compare. In 10 games probably any Romanian team could win 1, with some luck...and I also doubt it...

�And about Porto ,Benfica and Sporting my opinion is that one of them will q in CL last 16(because enormous coeficient they had all 3, and because of the advantage being in 2 pot) ,one of them in UC last 32 and 1 of them will go home�

That isn�t a advantage so far.. Last year Benfica was in 4 pot and reached CL quarter finals, beating fantastic oponents like man united and liverpool. And barcelona game was tight. Sim�o missed a chance that would send them to the semis, when the game was ending. Bad luck, but quality!!

�That means 1 team in CL and 1 team in UC. They had an explosion this week and made you dream but please wake up.�

And Romania will probably have 1 team in UC, if Dinamo Kyev don�t play their season best and eliminate Steaua.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 05-11-2006, 19:39	man u watch to many movies 1 team from Romania in last 16? guess Rapid and Dinamo must lose next matches Steaua must lose 4-0 last year perfect performance leed to an unseend coeficient of 5 10 matches 1 victory - Sorry this jooke could have killed me if i wasn`t prepaired for it

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Overgame Date: 05-11-2006, 19:52	Even with only 0-1, Steaua could be out. Steaua-Kiev : 0-1 (let's ilmagine it) Madrid-Lyon : 1-1 or even 0-1 Lyon-Steaua : 1-0 (1-1) Kiev-madrid 0-0 (1-0) And Steaua is out. That's far from impossible : if Kiev beat Steaua and Madrid doesn't win against Lyon, Lyon is sure first and won't lose at home, but Madrid will play with a C-team versus Kiev, and a draw could be enough if Lyon wins.

Author: doctor
Date: 05-11-2006, 20:03

@Overgame
funny man ,how exactly can Steaua lose to Dinamo Kyev ,remember 4-1 ?

The objective of Steaus is semifinals of UC said the officials

If Real will play with Cteam with what team will play Lyon
(almost sure first in group)

guess with D team

and say this will hapen ,how can Kyev beat Real after 5-1? Remember they don`t go there do lose points and money,they will have 5-6 strong players remember 5-1?

I don`t belive myself that i answer this very funny posts, could u enter on forum after 2 weeks ,after Kyev will play with Steaua?

Author: edieseb
Date: 05-11-2006, 20:34

Doctorn Steaua's objective is to go at least as far as the semifinals. This in relation, I think with last year's performance ("We have to at least repeat last year's good results") and also with next year's participation in CL and by getting as many points as possible out of this year's games, be seeded in the 2 pot in GS. Then again, how many times is Steaua changing objectives. Hopefully they'll work on their play to get to the form they were in last year (defensive especially)

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 05-11-2006, 21:11	last year they played very well in defense,now i see only a change Carlos-Hamutovsky-this is a complot of Portugal

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: vlad-tzepesh Date: 05-11-2006, 21:32	@ Overgame Steaua only needs to worry about the match against Dinamo Kiev, because it is sure that Real will win in Kiev. After all, Ramon Calderon promised to Gigi Becali, his blood brother, that Real will field the A team and win on the last matchday.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Pedro Date: 06-11-2006, 02:43	It seems Smilie is very popular in Romania.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Overgame Date: 06-11-2006, 02:56	I've just mentioned a POSSIBILITY. Read the word P-O-S-S-I-B-I-L-I-T-Y. I've seen 'Kiev needs to win 0-4', that's just false. If Kiev wions 0-1 in Bucarest, Steaua will probably be out. But i don't give 10% chance to Kiev to win in Bucarest.

Author: joaol
Date: 06-11-2006, 06:07

Comparing Portuguese football to Romanian football in the present? saying that we are worst than some years ago? You are sayng that we don?t have history in football( holland is a litlle bit better than us, only a little bit)?? you know what you can call yourself? Al-Qaeda from Bert?s forum!! You?re are football terrorists, somenone said rapid eliminated feyenord?? do you want the names of the teams eliminated by portuguese teams in the last 5 or 6 years? newcastle,feyenord,az, man united, lyon, coruna, cska, liverpool, monaco, celtic, lazio,dortmund, lots of spanish 2nd level teams, i?m am anxious to see u playing with 6 teams in europe, without qf rounds and 2 directly into champion s league but with 3 non seeds in uefa cup I almost bet u won?t have a season with more than 5 points, there we can talk!!! however i?ve seen rapid playing Nacional da Madeira that is a team ranked between 5th and 10th from Portuguese league and I don?t think their superior to them , i can only say that steaua and dinamo are your only chance in europe( however dinamo with 20 wins in 21 games had a difficult win at home with besiktas)... wish u good luck and I say that as you have risen form 26th place to 6th in 2 years, you will fall from 4th place to 18th place in 3 years

..trust me

Author: edieseb
Date: 06-11-2006, 06:48

Well, they didn't eliminate any romanian team yet, while Rapid eliminated Nacional (I'm surprised that you are from Portugal and you don't know that Nacional finished 5thlast year and it's on 4th place this year with 1/3 of the season gone). Again, I never said that Dinamo is better than Porto, but if you think games between portugese and romanian teams nowadays have a clear winner in the portugese team, you need a reality check.
I mention in a previous post that the 3 big portugese teams have a slight advantage in this confrontation, but you make me want to meet all the portugese teams in the next stages.
As for your proposition about Romania not getting more than 5 pts with 6 teams any of the coming years, I'm willing to take that bet if you find a way to do this.
Good luck to you too and let's hope we'll overtake the germans.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 06-11-2006, 09:04

@vlad-tzepesh
Have you seen what fixture is on the program for December 10th (the weekend after Kiew-Real Madrid)?
It's Sevilla- Real Madrid. No way they are going to send a A-team to Kiev when it's 100% sure what the result in the group is. Even if Madrid has any chance on becoming nr 1 I doubt that there will be a bit more than a B-team going.
A promise of a 'blood-brother' come on be realistic there is more important stuff than that.

Ofcourse Beckham and Ronaldo are part of the B-team currently

Author: doctor
Date: 06-11-2006, 09:53

@Overgame and Ricardo,i udestand what are u sayng but u speak only about Real Madird i see that u like them very very muc.But in this group there are 4 teams.4.4.4.4.4.4.4.The forth team that u don`t speak about is O Lyon they play in their cup,in their championship,and amost sure they are 1st in group even if Steaua will beat them,and i ask u a question again,they are first in group ,Real second with what team will they play D-team????????

Author: doctor
Date: 06-11-2006, 10:00

@jaoul

Guess bert doesn`t see this insults (making some people terorists is a normal thing)

U are very intusiasmated when u speak about Porto half of decenium ago

.Yes they eliminated all that teams,and then what? They winned 2 cups and then what?

THEY SOLD EVERITHING INCLUDING HE COATCH! A ENTIRE EUROPE LAUCH AT THEM , AND SAW HOW WEEK THEY ARE IN FORNT OF THE MONEY.

NOw let me teach u something ,from thet moment u started from 0.
Don`t speak about history because it`s irelevant in the present if Porto winned UC 5 years ago.

U shoul pay atention at your contry man

10 matches betwen portugesse teams and romanian tams ,and with luck we could win 1 ?

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 06-11-2006, 10:04	@jaoul National is on 4th and Rapid on 3-4 that`s very tight,don`t tell me that National have been even on 10th because Rapid have done the same. In a direct confruntaion we winned 2 games and did very important coeficient poins. If we winned 2 games with luck ,That means we have to lose 18.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 06-11-2006, 10:48
Edited by: Ricardo
at: 06-11-2006, 10:55

@doctor
you are right, that also Lyon will send a B+-team to Bucuresti, but Madrid is the team to beat, Lyon will be harder. On the other hand Steaua might be a better team than Kiev and therefor more likely to win. We will see, but I just wanted to say that you should not count on Madrid sending an A-team to Kiev.

And Steaua also sold some players last year, after not even reaching the final. How many players will leave if they really will win the UC? Ogararu is not a regular player in Ajax, maybe that says something of his quality or of the quality of Steaua? Let's all hope for our team to win, dream of glory and in a couple of weeks we'll know more...

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 06-11-2006, 10:53	@Ricardo I didn`t count on a victory of Real ,i count of a victory of Steaua on Kyev. I belive another person said that Real will beat Kyev. And one more thing it`s BUCURESTI not BUDAPESTA,other persons tacked as in insult when i didn`t write corectly Feynord. Please don`t poot our glory in Hungary

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Ricardo Date: 06-11-2006, 10:56 Edited by: Ricardo at: 06-11-2006, 10:58	Sorry doctor and all Romanian fans who manegd to read it. I corrected it. I must admit I already mixed those 2 on grammer school when I was young - Maybe I should visit them, so I will remember better And P.S. you are probably right with counting on a victory of Steaua over Kiev. We'll see on Forum 2-prediction game how most of us think about that, but I'll put a Steaua win on my list.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 06-11-2006, 11:15 Edited by: doctor at: 06-11-2006, 11:17	I found this on another topic ,sounds to me that all England starts to go crazy,i mean how can Romania go on 5 th? This is an article for all the people that made me crazy " Gabriele Marcotti has an article on this subject in todays Times. www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,27-2439160_1,00.html " the article has 3 pages

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 06-11-2006, 11:25	Steaua needs about 4 wins to be certanly or 1-2 win to hope for 2nd pot next year,Dinamo needs 5-6 wins to be in pot 3 ,this could happend and certanly we will have a big coeficient next year to, i hope that 4th team from Romania (we have 3 teams that battle for that place) will do good and q in groups of UC,then i don`t see who can stop us ,maybe intertoto.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Ricardo Date: 06-11-2006, 11:32	Great they compare Germany with Bulgaria

Author: doctor
Date: 06-11-2006, 11:35

@Ricardo u made this predictions ,are this mathematical predictions (biggest coeficient qualifies?)

Rank'07 country cof0206 cof0607 cof0207 0206
01 Spain 57.891 13.286(6.571) 71.177 01
02 England 51.915 17.250(8.125) 69.165 03
03 Italy 54.160 13.643(6.642) 67.803 02
04 France 43.656 10.625(5.625) 54.281 04
05 Portugal 34.666 9.917(4.583) 44.583 06
06 Germany 34.864 8.500(4.928) 43.364 05
07 Netherlands 31.165 9.929(4.785) 41.094 07
08 Romania 28.832 12.000(9.000) 40.832 10
09 Russia 29.500 6.625(5.375) 36.125 09

Because Portugal coeficient is a bit exafgerated ,and Romanian coeficient is a bit low,Romania will have 12 if no team will q from groups.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 06-11-2006, 11:44

Where did you get that 4 wins would be enough to be in pot 2? Or is that a guess. It would mean q UC-1/8Final I'm not sure- there are still a lot in Steaua's teamtranking-neghbourhood that might become/stay ahead of them, though they will pass Schalke and Stuttgart then. But Sporting, Lille and Bremen could overcome them....But then again they will overtake other teams, though Celtic, Benfica, AZ, Panathinaikos, CSKA do not look like dropping out soon.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Ricardo Date: 06-11-2006, 11:54	@doctor, Yes this is still based on 'objective' calculations: higher coefficient wins at home and draws away. If you like I can put the sheets of the groupstages on the site

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 06-11-2006, 11:55	with 4 wins they will be in front of Shalke,celtic or Benfica will stay with curent coeficient,because they are in direct competition, Tska are very close for CL last 16 that means few coeficient points. If u look closly 3 teams will go down and 3 will go up this is the only way.,the 4 the team could be Steaua if they will go in front of Shalke.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 06-11-2006, 12:02	yes pls

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Ricardo Date: 06-11-2006, 12:42	They are on my site. On the right I have added the links "CL_GS Prediction used for Rankings '07" & "UC_GS Prediction used for Rankings '07" I hope it's clear, otherwise feel free to ask.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: doctor Date: 06-11-2006, 13:39	This prediction are very usful, so for now the mathematics advatages Portugal ,Germany and Netherland. There will be some changes after 2 weeks hope Romanian teams will do a nice job.

Author: spenk
Date: 06-11-2006, 13:48
Edited by: spenk
at: 06-11-2006, 13:54

It's not easy to predict how many points a club needs, or at which place it should be to be in a certain seeding pot in the CL. It depends very much on which teams qualify for CL. For example, here are the figures of the lowest team to enter the second seeding pot in CL for the past 7 years:

06: 54.757, 30th
05: 52.145, 33rd
04: 65.467, 23rd
03: 60.749, 30th
02: 70.082, 22nd
01: 60.604, 24th
00: 51.925, 33rd

So both the ranking position that is needed to be in a pot and the nr of points that are needed for a certain ranking position, fluctuate. So you can be ranked 23rd and end up in the 3rd pot, and you can get in the 2nd while you are ranked 33rd. Also you can get 69 points and be in 3rd, and 53 and be in 2nd. Quite some differences. To be absolutely sure, you have to be 16th... To be pretty sure, you must be in top 22. The lower than 22 you get, the more luck you need.

Author: spenk
Date: 06-11-2006, 14:33
Edited by: spenk
at: 06-11-2006, 14:35

to make this a little more specific for next year: how many teams out of top 30 will not enter?

- juventus will remain high ranked and will not qualify for CL

- It is not likely that Newcastle (13) will qualify for CL, because they are currently ranked 19th in the league. otherwise another higher british team will not qualify, because they have 5 teams ranked in top13.

- Sevilla (18) and Deportivo (22) are the 5th and 6th spanish team, so one can let those teams out.

- PSV (currently nr 14), Ajax (19) and AZ (28) can't qualify all for the CL, because there are only 2 places for them (if the second team comes through the qualication...)

- It is not likely that Parma (26) will qualify, they are currently ranked 15th in the league. Milan (1) is ranked 16th in the league but they are coming up...

- Auxerre (23) is 15th in the league, monaco (21) is last! in the league

So with the current ranking, out of the top 20 at least 3 teams and out of the top 30 at least 8 teams will probably not make it into the CL. Of course, this ranking will change and some teams that are currently high ranked will not be there at the end of the season. So based on this if you are nr 30 you need to hope another 6 teams will not qualify. Or you need to get higher yourself...

Author: spenk
Date: 06-11-2006, 14:48
Edited by: spenk
at: 06-11-2006, 14:49

As for steaua, where this started.

With 4 wins from now they will be on 60 points, and on at least the 28th spot, passing 5 teams that are not active (anymore) in europe. Actually I don't see them passing a lot of other teams with 4 wins, maybe 1 or 2. So after 4 wins they will be maximum at the 26th spot, which does certainly not guarantee the second seeding group of the CL.

And then they must win 4 times themselves first!

Author: badgerboy
Date: 06-11-2006, 14:57

Following on from Spenk's interesting figures.

I would say 19th spot (currently filled by Ajax) is the absolute "magic spot" for seeding in Pot 2 of next season's CL.

As spenk already said - Juventus will not be there, nor Newcastle (who are the 5th English team in any case). Sevilla the 5th Spanish team are currently 18th. In theory they could qualify for the CL (new leaders in Spain) and fall down the coefficient rankings. In that case it might be necessary to reach 18th spot for 100% guarantee of Pot 2.

A quick comment also on the fluctuating figures given by Spenk. Some variation from year to year is inevitable but it's worth pointing out that there is a logical reason for the coefficient for the past two years being much lower than for the previous two. The 2003-04 and 2004-05 seedings were both based on four years of "second group stage" matches in the CL - so more points available for the top clubs. The last two seasons have been based on three and two seasons of this format respectively.

Of course we now also have additional CL bonus points & many more points available in the UEFA Cup. Logically I suspect this ought to mean an increase in the seeding threshold further down the rankings -certainly for CLQR3 - but shouldn't affect the top two pots as much.

Author: spenk
Date: 06-11-2006, 16:18
Edited by: spenk
at: 06-11-2006, 16:20

That 2nd group stage at the CL could explain some things indeed. Look at the points the nr 10, 20, 30 and 40 had:

10,20,30,40

06: 89.757, 64.960, 54.757, 47.757
05: 93.864, 68.864, 55.739, 46.715
04: 90.511, 67.511, 55.331, 47.331
03: 97.155, 75.566, 60.749, 53.791
02: 88.334, 74.176, 59.979, 52.058
01: 81.119, 66.644, 55.916, 50.395
00: 78.963, 60.363, 53.363, 48.201

Clearly a peak in the top teams in around 03, when indeed the most years with a 2nd group stage counted into the ranking. The ranking 08 will be the first without those 2nd group stage. This year only 02/03 will count. So what will we end on: 86, 63, 54, 47? I'm not expecting the line for the top 30 and 40 to change a lot because of the UC group stages. This would also mean that the top 40 comes closer to the top 20.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Ricardo Date: 06-11-2006, 16:24	If you look at current participants, Benfica is number 16 on spot 27, 3 points ahead of Steaua, and that's while CL candidates Villareal, Sevilla, Ajax, Schalke, Stuttgart, AZ, Panathinaikos are all ahead of Steaua. It will be a hard task for Steaua, but something worth striving for.

Author: doctor
Date: 06-11-2006, 16:25

@spenk beautiful explained and u are perfect right in there .

I only hope that next year will not be a new record and all 19 teams will q for groups,but still there are good chanses that Steaua will be in pot 2 and Dinamo in pot 3.

My personal opinion is that Steaua will be on 20-22 position at the end of the year,but you are right they sure need more then 4 wins.

With 4 wins they will be on 24-26 but still they have good chanses to make it.So if i where in their places i would win 8 more games + 33% of country ranking they can be on and still i don`t think they can be 100% sure

.

Everithing that this 3 teams did and will do help very much the rest of the teams in our championship ,we have already a coeficient of 12.5 for all teams in our country,but they still have to play a test with a seeded team.

England,Spain and Italy have real chanses to have all teams seeded in R1 of UC.My belife is that`s why 33% exists.This year Totenham was first unseeded team ,next year this will not happen anymore all teams from England will be seeded.Spanish teams are already seeded, i don`t see what Italia does they did a very big mistake by relegation of Juventus,the penalisation points of Milan and Fiorentina could mean 2 more good teams out of CL next year and with Juventus that`s 3, They become a target for France.

Author: panda
Date: 06-11-2006, 16:59

This topic took a very interesting turn in the question of whether the Pot and the team strength are kind of 'equivalent.'

We know that in UC they radically aren't, so to pick the example of English teams Newcastle, currently joint bottom of EPL, was high in top Pot. Although at the same time there are numerous examples of how the Euro and domestic performances seem not to be necessaril related either (Newcastle again, beat Palermo somehow, yet lost to Sheffied United.)

BUT in CL, the Pot you are in matters a lot more, in that a lot of groups have strong teams in top TWO Pots, so 2nd pot is a real advantage to avoid a really hard group, irrespective of hoping to get easier opponents in the bottom pots. So this is a real live issue. (Between pots 3 and 4 there is usually less difference in ability, I would say.)

Author: badgerboy
Date: 06-11-2006, 17:17

It's worth pointing out (as Joe Royle did constantly on Five) that Palermo put out a virtual reserve team for the Newcastle game.

I guess they have their sights set on a CL spot domestically - & probably thought they could afford to risk dropping points Thursday after an away win on Matchday 1.

I have to say - if they already "can't be bothered" with the UEFA Cup it's a shame they bothered against West Ham in the first place!

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: panda Date: 06-11-2006, 17:52	After their performance against Chelsea, you can say that Spurs are finally playing well; but for sure Blackburn and Newcastle (and Rangers!) have been very iffy domestically; so personally I can't understand how they managed to do so well thus far, since I don't believe it's because the standard is so much superior in England (and certainly not in Scotland)

Author: doctor
Date: 07-11-2006, 09:45

Regarding Romania i think that Dinamo could make it to pot 3 ,but Steaua must play very well to catch the pot 2.Still if they will get there i think it will be very hard for them if they will qualify from groups ,almost for sure they will be out after a game with top 8 teams of Europe,they will need luck at the draws because it exists some teams now that are close to perfection: Chelsea,Lyon and some strong teams :Bayern ,Milan,Barcelona,Arsenal,Manchester,Valencia. Very good teams that are very hard to beat.

Author: dragos_popa17
Date: 07-11-2006, 12:20
Edited by: dragos_popa17
at: 07-11-2006, 12:25

I think Dinamo's chances of being seeded into the 3rd pot are slim at this time. They would need a very good performance to get there, at least UC quarter-finals, and it's a bit early to talk about that. Right now, they can't even consider themselves a seeded team in Q3. They still need to win games, and that's easier said than done, especially in their group.
As for Steaua, just like Dinamo, it's a little soon to speak about the pot that they will be placed in. It depends on how far they will go in the UEFA Cup. If they're out in the first leg, it's all left hanging on their luck.
Still, before talking about their seeding in the CL groups, both teams have to get there.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: antonio62tr Date: 07-11-2006, 13:02	I checked Romanian league and see Steau 2nd with only two point lead Rapid...So how can you talk about 2nd spot at Cl..Maybe Dinamo and Rapid will play at CL next year...

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: dragos_popa17 Date: 07-11-2006, 13:10	Dinamo have a good lead and it's hard to belive they won't finish the league in one of the top 2 positions. As for Steaua, their squad and the way the play guarantees a spot in the top 2. I don't see how they can drop any lower. Rapid is a good team, but I don't think they have what it takes to get in front. Their morale can drop very fast and so can their results.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Giuseppe Date: 07-11-2006, 13:16	... maybe CFR Cluj, maybe Poli Timisoara, maybe even recently crushed Otelul Galati. What amazes me is that despite the fact a lot of people find this thread offensive, they still manage to put some time asside to write something in it

Author: helvete
Date: 07-11-2006, 15:05

To every Romanian gay or other that say I dont have argumnets that Steua and Rapid and Dinamo are worse than SCP, SLB and Porto. Dont be stupid. Wxactly what have romanian teams done in the Champins League? Exct the anser is nothing. Nothing at all.

In the Uefacup they can pick some wins because of the lack of quality in that "loosers cup". Thw teams there are of lower class.

But now when Steua is in the CL what do we see? Just loss after loss after loss.

On the other hand Porto, Sporting and Benfica all win games in their groups. Often they qualify for the next round and sometimes they really go far. And this is in the CL. When did a romanian team do that? 1986 is the last tima I remember.

And whats with this UEFAcup madness. Its a cup where the loosers that cant get into CL ends up. Really something to be proud of. Come on its like comparing SerieA with SerieB. The sick thing is that they give as much coof. points.

Author: dragos_popa17
Date: 07-11-2006, 15:17
Edited by: dragos_popa17
at: 07-11-2006, 15:18

Helvete, you can't compare Steaua's group with the one's that Porto, Benfica and Sporting are in. The most difficult group for your teams is the one Sporting is in, but Bayern and Inter can't compare with Lyon and Real, in my oppinion. At least not now. And let's not forget that it's Steaua's first year in a long time in CL.
In a game between Steaua and Porto, Sporting or Benfica I see no favourites. Against Dinamo or Rapid the Portugease teams would probably have the edge, but they would have to put in a lot of effort to defeat them.
Even so, I admit that overall, Portugease football is above Romanian football, but asure you that in a head to head match, things could go either way.

Author: Lupta_Steaua
Date: 07-11-2006, 16:09

Helvete:

"And whats with this UEFAcup madness. Its a cup where the loosers that cant get into CL ends up. Really something to be proud of. Come on its like comparing SerieA with SerieB. The sick thing is that they give as much coof. points."

I wonder what are you going to say when Portugal will be out of the top 6th, because realistically they will be out by next year to the latest. At that point one of the so called "big three of the Portugese football" will have to play in what you call "SerieB".

I just wonder now, who is the arrogant nation around here?

As far as I saw almost all Romanians said that any Por-Rom encounter would be hard to predict, while the Portugese seem to be claiming that Romanian teams would have no chance against Portugese opposition. Bad luck for National

Author: helvete
Date: 07-11-2006, 16:15
Edited by: helvete
at: 07-11-2006, 16:17

Sorry but its not arrogance. The Romaninas think the ties would be hard. I dont. I tghink the big three would beat the romanian teams at least 7 times out of ten. Look att statsistics and you see who is more right.

As far as beinga out of top 6 i just dont see how we could end up there in the next years. Benfica, Porto and Sporting will for sure get more points. And if any of them go to UC they have the chance to go all way, wich means a lot of points. I am not at all worried about being cyached by ant other nation.

Author: helvete
Date: 07-11-2006, 16:21

dragos

I doubt about Steuas kapacity. Thats all. Some people dont get that some do. I am not god I dont know things. I just say what I think is most realistic. Thats all. You must admit that the portuguese teams have beaten the best teams in europen the last years. Romaninans have met much weaker teams. Not Steuea in CL this year of course

And of course in one head to head match avarything can happen.

Author: Lupta_Steaua
Date: 07-11-2006, 16:26

helvete,

I am really tired of these arguements, and actually on another topic, I predicted a scenario where the teams from these two countries would have a big chance to meet. It would be interesting to see this happen.

I said "interesting", but I don't think that this scenario would be the "desirable" one for Romania, as there will be weaker teams at that stage. I also think that the scenario will be equally "undesirable" for Portugal.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: helvete Date: 07-11-2006, 16:40	Please tell what argumenats? The facts that we played muche harde clubs and beat them or the fact that the UC is so much weaker, and thats were you earned all your points?

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Lupta_Steaua Date: 07-11-2006, 16:49 Edited by: Lupta_Steaua at: 07-11-2006, 16:50	helvete, Let it be your way, Portugese teams are better than Romanian ones! Happy now? You'll still be out of top 6 next year, which also shows that you are unable to hold on to that spot. And you need "easy" UEFA Cup points to climb back I just like enjoying the game.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: helvete Date: 07-11-2006, 17:14	What makes you think we will be out of top 6 next year? Give me as many argumnets you want. As for your laughter about Portuguese teams not beeing stronger than Romainians thats up to you. The reality is diffrent.

Author: Lupta_Steaua
Date: 07-11-2006, 17:20

Helvete,

Just this little thing here:

# country 03/04 04/05 05/06 06/07 07/08 rank08 nt08
1 England 11.250 15.571 14.428 8.125 0.000 49.374 0
2 Spain 14.312 12.437 15.642 6.571 0.000 48.962 0
3 Italy 8.875 14.000 15.357 6.642 0.000 44.874 0
4 France 13.500 11.428 10.812 5.625 0.000 41.365 0
5 Romania 4.333 5.500 16.833 9.000 0.000 35.666 0
6 Russia 5.875 10.000 10.000 5.375 0.000 31.250 0
7 Germany 4.714 10.571 10.437 4.928 0.000 30.650 0
8 Netherlands 5.416 12.000 7.583 4.785 0.000 29.784 0
9 Portugal 10.250 8.166 5.500 4.583 0.000 28.499 0

I am not sure how strong of an arguement you will consider this, but it's anyway better, because I did not see any arguements from you

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: helvete Date: 07-11-2006, 17:23 Edited by: helvete at: 07-11-2006, 17:24	Thats no argument. Thats statistics. And what makes you think we vcant get more points than that up to 6th place. Hell its leess than two points. Porto will for sure make some. If Sporting and Benfica get to "loosercup" they are contenders to win it. That means alot of points. I am really not worried.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Lupta_Steaua Date: 07-11-2006, 17:24	Good for you

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: helvete Date: 07-11-2006, 17:26	Fine. And for the record I am not against Romanian clubs. I just dont think they are at the same level as Benfica, Porto or Sporting. Whats so strange about that?

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Lupta_Steaua Date: 07-11-2006, 17:36	helvete, I never actually disagreed with you. All I said was that the encounters between these teams would be interesting, and that the outcome would not be predictable. Therefore, I said that other teams would be more desirable in the next rounds. Would you feel lucky if Porto got Dinamo at the draw, or would you rather prefer Zulte for that matter?

Author: saffrhaps
Date: 07-11-2006, 17:39

I don't 'get' this argument. This season Romania is playing with 3 clubs and Portugal with 6. They have scored between them almost exactly the same number of points - that's why this season Romania has double the co-eff of Portugal. If you remove Setubal and Funchal, who scored 1 point between them, the total is still within a half point 26.5-27.5 v 27. But the difference of dividing points by 3 or by 6 is far bigger than the difference between the football of the two countries.

The CL clubs have all scored roughly the same number of points for their countries; Steaua had to play 2x QR, then they got an extremely hard group.

The UC OF COURSE is not as strong as the CL. So Rapid and Dinamo's points are slightly 'softer' than the Benfica or Lisbon.

But all you have to do is imagine only the 3 best Portuguese teams playing, or the 3 Bucharest teams + 3 other Romanian teams, and it's almost a mirror image.

But I don't see that from this we can conclude that much about what would happen head-to-head. And if we're not talking head-to-head but 'intrinsic quality' it's quite impossible to know who is better, or rather 'the one we support is better.'

Yes, we can say Porto won the CL fairly recently, but of course the quality of Porto is not the same now either.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: JC71 Date: 07-11-2006, 18:43	@saffrhaps Yes, but... How many points had Romania before Portgual even start to play? They gathered many points in the qf rounds with much weaker teams.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: saffrhaps Date: 07-11-2006, 19:07	Yes, I agree. It is 10 QR points v 1.5 QR pts. But also Portugal have 9 bonus points v 3 bonus points by Romania. The CL teams which enter direct get these bonus points irrespective of having to play QRs. So then we have 10.5 v 13, which is a much smaller difference. Of course, only time will tell, but it is boring to be patient and much more fun to argue now.

Author: JC71
Date: 07-11-2006, 19:33

In the CL is much hard to get points (as Steaua as seen).

Also the qf rounds points were for all the Romanian teams (CL+UEFA Cup),
but only the CL teams off Portugal got those bonus points.

In my view that has been the problem of Portugal,
the UEFACup teams were always unseeded and never showed the quality
to beat the seeded teams, so Portugal always had to drag those teams,
that only affected the co-eff.

Whereas the Romanian teams won those rounds and now leapfrog to
seeded teams, which give them much better changes for the future.

Author: lazio
Date: 07-11-2006, 20:36
Edited by: lazio
at: 07-11-2006, 20:41

Right now the big trio of Portugal are better then romanian trio. Only Steaua is good enough to contend that trio. And I say that Steaua is a little bit stronger than Benfica right now. But that's all. Porto and Sporting are better teams. If we want to be fair play. I'm not saying that those teams are unbeatable, just better. On the other hand, I say - maybe I'm wrong, maybe not - that Romania has a better next trio - the 4 to 6 places. But we'll see! In the near future!

Author: daggy
Date: 07-11-2006, 21:28
Edited by: daggy
at: 07-11-2006, 21:37

Interesting topic.

Portugal has good chances of reaching fifth by the end of the season. Germany will probably only have 3 teams after the group stages, and Portugal still 4 since Braga won 4-0 to Liberec, probably. When Rui Costa gets fit, Benfica will be much stronger, as was shown before, and Steaua has smaller chances against any of the 3 big portuguese teams. It's harder for the Romanian teams to have the same success as last season, this years Uefa Cup is stronger than last year.

But the biggest issue is next year.
Next season, there will be 4 teams for Romania, 2 in the CL and 2 in the Uefa Cup and almost no qualifiers. If 2 romanian teams go to CL, they will be facing very strong teams and will probably lose valuable coefficient points, as what has been happening Steaua. Plus, less qualifiers means less points for them. And does a romanian's 4th placed team have better chances against an seeded Uefa Cup team? Wouldnt think so
Different for Portugal, still 6 teams, 3CL and 3UC. Benfica, Porto and Sporting still getting some points. But, the problem for Portugal was always the other 3 teams in the Uefa cup, they always gave little points. However, next season, Braga will probably be seeded, and with a little luck, both Braga and Boavista will be playing in the Uefa Cup and both seeded, if they qualify in the portuguese league. That would help alot.
As for Germany and Holland, we will have to see.

Author: Frk_Slb
Date: 07-11-2006, 22:14

@doctor

I don�t watch to many movies, I simply watch Portuguese championship and CL. I understand Romania is in a good position in the ranking due to Steaua�s nice performance last season, but where�s the rest? Romania just came from 26th position. Be a little more humble..

@dragos_popa17

I agree when you say Steaua�s group isn�t easy, but I doubt if Steaua were in sporting, porto and benfica�s group they would do better..

@saffrhaps

Yes, they can have scored almost exactly the same number of points, but you can�t compare UC points and CL points. Probably if Portuguese big three were in UC, Portugal would have more points surely.
When you compare only the 3 best Portuguese teams playing and 6 teams from Romania you forget that 3 of them or more will probably be eliminated in first round as Setubal and Nacional were.

@lazio

You certainly didn�t see Benfica playing to say they are weeker than Steaua. Only in dreams. Benfica beats Steaua by 3 or 4, no doubts about it.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Lupta_Steaua Date: 07-11-2006, 22:24	Well, I am not sure that after these long discussions anyone changed their opinions about the strength of Romanian and Portugese teams. However, I am not saying that the discussion was pointless: At least we saw that there are plenty of "doctor"s in Portugal as well

Author: JC71
Date: 07-11-2006, 23:42

Saying that Steaua group is thougher than Sporting is not quite true,
unless you are measuring it by how many points Steaua gets.

Altough Lyon is one of the favorites to win the CL,
Real is no better than Bayer or Inter right now,
and for me Spartak is better than Kiev.

I do respect the other teams, but I feel the Romanians (not only Doctor)
don't respect the Portuguese teams,
look at Benfica last year eliminate ManU, Liverpool and made it very dificult
for Barca (I don't forget that penalty forgiven to Barca in Lisbon),
still is a normal team, so be it.

Dinamo had a hard time with a mediocre Nacional.

Author: cinebelul
Date: 08-11-2006, 00:44

It"s true, the rise of Romania is caused 1st by the fact that we have/had only 3 teams. Next year is also good to make poins (4 or 5 teams), but with 6/7 begining 2008/09 remain us only to look how long we will manage to be in the top 8.
Portuguese teams were always uncomfortable for RO teams, I don"t prefer the CL 3rds from Por against Rapid or Dinamo in case they will be 2nd in their groups.. but for the fascination in the coeff-battle such duels would be very interesting even

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: OMfan Date: 08-11-2006, 08:58	I'm sire that first 3 teams in potugal are better than first 3 in romania but i'm sure too, that potugal will lose his place in the country ranking and that romania will be above them.Look at the coeff it's just mathematics.

Author: dragos_popa17
Date: 08-11-2006, 09:46

JC71, in my oppinion Steaua's group is tougher than Sporting's. Lyon and Real are much more likely to win the CL than Inter and Bayern. As for Spartak, I've seen them play in Q3 and I can onestly say that Kiev is better. The groups that Porto and Benfica are in are weaker, you have to admit it. I think that in any other group but group A, Steaua would have done better. On the other hand, I also think that Porto, Benfica or Sporting would have done better in Steaua's group, because they would have had the experience to play Real and Lyon.
Anyway, the point is that if I were to give ratings, I would give Portugal 8/10 and Romania 7/10. That extra point is for experience and finances. Although, I must say I don't see Portugal developing much more, unlike Romania.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 08-11-2006, 12:23

OMfan wrote:

"I'm sire that first 3 teams in potugal are better than first 3 in romania but i'm sure too, that potugal will lose his place in the country ranking and that romania will be above them.Look at the coeff it's just mathematics".

A very wise statement I would say. First it's important to say that one country being ahead of another in the rankings doesn't mean that the teams of that country are better. Two different questions do seem to be getting mixed up here.

Will Romania go ahead of Portugal in the rankings? This year - personally I still don't know and doubt if the answer will be clear until the spring. Next year yes - it's almost certain. With six teams Portugal has to score 43 points (that's 21.5 wins) to catch Romania. That assumes of course Romania don't score any more points! They are currently 7.167 coefficient points behind in the 2008 rankings. Portugal only scored one more point than this (8.166) the year Sporting got to the UEFA Cup Final.

Are Portuguese teams better than Romanian teams? Completely different question. Also the sort of question that's impossible to give a definitive answer to but based purely on overall European performance in recent seasons - yes.

2002-03 Porto wins the UEFA Cup + Boavista reaches semi-finals
2003-04 Porto wins the CL
2004-05 Sporting reaches UEFA Cup Final, Porto reaches last 16 of CL
2005-06 Benfica reaches Quarter-finals of CL

That's a pretty good record. Romania on the other hand has one pretty good season (this one obviously hasn't reached the "business end" yet).

Two other points.

First, on any given day you would expect matches between any Romanian "top three" side and any Portuguese "top three" side to be pretty close. Personally I'd give the edge to the home side in most cases - though with slightly more confidence when the Portuguese team were at home due to their greater experience etc. I'd also expect a Portuguese top three side to see off a lower-ranked Romanian side a little more impressively than the reverse - but I could be proved wrong about this in the next few years.

Second - Romanian have only just emerged as a force after years in the wilderness. How long they can sustain whatever their "best" proves to be is still open to debate. The form of Portuguese teams fluctuates wildly though. Porto last year for example seemed very poor in Europe & Sporting lost to Halmstads (one tie so I don't know if this meant they were a bad team or just had a bad day). Benfica looked a fairly good side. Any of the Romanian teams would (or should) have fancied their chances against Porto last year though. Benfica would've been the toughest nut to crack. This year Sporting seem very hard to beat whilst the other two teams seem like they could be a threat to the very best on a good day but be embarrassed by pretty much anyone on a bad day.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: dragos_popa17 Date: 08-11-2006, 12:36	I think the main idea is that Portugal has a pretty well defined place in Europe while Romania is just emerging after years of darkness That's why it can be very difficult to compare them. I think it will all become much clearer in the years to follow, after Romania finds it's spot in European football. At this time, we can go either way, up or down, although I hope it's up

Author: bigriazor
Date: 08-11-2006, 13:03

Yes Portuguese teams have much more chances against the "giants" then romanian teams but SHUT UP ABOUT BENFICA-STEAUA 3,4-0.I totally agree that in a game agains Barcelona for example Benfica has more chances -dont know why maybe "big team" mentality.But dont flatter yourself-Benfica can get a 3-0 from:Steaua,Levski,Kobenhavn,Shakhtar,Dyn. kyiv,Anderlecht and YES MANY MORE as well as they can beat them 3-0.Benfica(Porto and Sporting also) currently dont have a very solid play their are not up there with the big ESP,ENG,ITA,+Lyon,Bayern and Werder i presume from the big five.Also all free are below PSV and Ajax.Benfica's game is not all that good so dont think you deserve a UCL QF place because you certainly DO NOT.Maybe porto but they are weak also recently...

Author: enrabador
Date: 08-11-2006, 21:24

3 top portuguese teams against Romanian teams

Benfica against Romanian teams:

2000 UC R1 Benfica Dinamo Bucuresti 0-1
2000 UC R1 Dinamo Bucuresti Benfica 0-2

1995 CL G Benfica Steaua Bucuresti 2-1
1995 CL G Steaua Bucuresti Benfica 1-1

1988 CL SF Steaua Bucuresti Benfica 0-0
1988 CL SF Benfica Steaua Bucuresti 2-0

1983 UC SF Benfica Universitatea Craiova 0-0
1983 UC SF Universitatea Craiova Benfica 1-1

Benfica wins: 3
Romanian wins: 1

Benfica eliminated 3 times Romanian teams
Romanian teams never eliminated Benfica

Porto against Romanian teams:

1991 CL R2 Dinamo Bucuresti FC Porto 0-0
1991 CL R2 FC Porto Dinamo Bucuresti 4-0

1990 UC R1 FC Porto Flacara Moreni 2-0
1990 UC R1 Flacara Moreni FC Porto 1-2

Porto eliminated 2 times Romanian teams
Romanian teams never eliminated Porto

Sporting clube against Romanians teams:

1992 UC R1 Sporting CP Lisbon Dinamo Bucuresti 1-0
1992 UC R1 Dinamo Bucuresti Sporting CP Lisbon 2-0

1991 UC R2 Sporting CP Lisbon Politehnica Timisoara 7-0
1991 UC R2 Politehnica Timisoara Sporting CP Lisbon 2-0

Sporting eliminated 1 time Romanian teams
ROmanian teams eliminated 1 time Sporting.

Total:

Portuguese wins: 9
Romanian wins: 2
Draws: 5

Portuguese teams eliminated 6 times Romanian teams
Romanian teams eliminated 1 time Portuguese team

Author: enrabador
Date: 08-11-2006, 21:26

Weaker portuguese teams:

1977 CW R1 CSU Galati Boavista 2-3
1977 CW R1 Boavista CSU Galati 2-0

1969 UC R1 Leix�es SC Arges Pitesti 1-1
1969 UC R1 Arges Pitesti Leix�es SC 0-0

1962 CW R1 Leix�es SC Progresul Bucuresti 1-1
1962 CW R1 Progresul Bucuresti Leix�es 0-1

1972 UC R3 UT Arad Vit�ria Set�bal 3-0
1972 UC R3 Vit�ria Set�bal UT Arad 1-0

1970 UC R1 Vit�ria Set�bal Rapid Bucuresti 3-1
1970 UC R1 Rapid Bucuresti Vit�ria Set�bal 1-4

1988 UC R1 Universitatea Craiova GD Chaves 3-2
1988 UC R1 GD Chaves Universitatea Craiova 2-1

2007 UC R1 Rapid Bucuresti Nacional Funchal 1-0
2007 UC R1 Nacional Funchal Rapid Bucuresti 1-2

Portugal wins: 7
Romania wins: 4
Draws: 3

weaker Portuguese teams eliminated 4 times Romanian teams
Romanian teams eliminated 3 times weaker Portuguese teams

Conclusion:

Portugal > Romania

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: bigriazor Date: 09-11-2006, 00:12	Yes and Hungarian football was one of europe's best in the '60.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: cinebelul Date: 09-11-2006, 01:58 Edited by: cinebelul at: 09-11-2006, 01:58	It seems like the ice should be broken, RO teams will eliminate Benifca and/or Porto soon..

Author: Lupta_Steaua
Date: 09-11-2006, 02:25
Edited by: Lupta_Steaua
at: 09-11-2006, 02:26

Well, I accepted once that the Portuguese teams are better than Romanian ones. But I also have to say that in the last 5 years we got 2 wins against Portugal. Who knows how many more we can get now?

It does look like Portugal is not going to drop down as sharp as Greece did, but they will also not be able to hold on to 6th spot. There are just too many top contenders and also a "big" outsider", as well as an "acceptable" European force - Russia. (By the way, if you asked me who I preferred to end up higher (Russia or Portugal), I would say Portugal for sure.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: cinebelul Date: 09-11-2006, 04:37	Russia! The common powers of this part 5yrs class were first replaced by Gre&Tur. Now is the time for Rus&Rom to make them angry for some years Ned allways 7th or 8th missing the 3rd place for UCL and Por will fall down from top8 for some seasons coming maybe back before next wave of some unworthy nations from East Europe..

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Lupta_Steaua Date: 09-11-2006, 05:14	cinebelul "Unworthy", seems to be the best term so far . Considering the past experiance (last century), I'd say what is Romania doing at this level, how did they dare challenge Germany??? (Portugal is out any way even if their top 3 are "better" than the Romanian trio). I'd suggest that all Romanian teams lose their mathes from now on, so that things can calm down and the staus quo mentained

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: gabriel1 Date: 20-11-2006, 13:26	this weeck: steaua bucuresti-dinamo kiev 2-0 rapid bucuresti - mlada 2-0 brugge - dinamo bucuresti 1-1 +1,666p for Romania in the country ranking

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: OMfan Date: 21-11-2006, 17:34	@gabriel1 You wrote on the wrong topics, the goog one is "where..dream" ... Just a little joke not an attack...good luck Romania.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Philipp Date: 21-11-2006, 23:28 Edited by: Philipp at: 21-11-2006, 23:29	a good start in the week for Portugal, they overtook Germany.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: impdcl Date: 21-11-2006, 23:58	9.333 and counting.......

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: gabriel1 Date: 22-11-2006, 01:15	yes, 9,333p ...Romania ,again on top...

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: cinebelul Date: 22-11-2006, 01:25	Congratulations for the portuguese winners from tuesday evening! I have to re_estimate my predictions, I think Rom will not overtake Por this autumn and till end of the season even..Benfica & Sporting could go far in UC.. Very close situation in Porto-group, but with a draw in the last game Arsenal & Porto will qualify even if CSKA will win 10-0 at Hamburg..

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: gabriel1 Date: 22-11-2006, 01:38	5 Portugal 39.916 4/6 6 Germany 39.792 5/7 7 Romania 38.165 3/3 ...

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: Ricardo Date: 22-11-2006, 10:00	@cinebelul Indeed it probably will end in a draw then, I think that there is very little chance that it will become something else - both teams can defend quit good, so that will be their first priority.

Author: alexdcro
Date: 22-11-2006, 10:03

What are the criterias when three teams have the same amount of
points? Well acording to {a href="http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/19071.pdf">UEFA regulations{/a>:
1) Highest number of points obtained in the group matches
played among the teams in question
2) Highest goal difference obtained in the group matches
played among the teams in question

So:
{pre>
Porto - CSKA 0-0
Arsenal - Porto 2-0
CSKA - Arsenal 1-0
Arsenal - CSKA 0-0
CSKA - Porto 0-2

Team
CSKA 4 1 2 1 1-2 5p
Arsenal 3 1 1 1 2-1 4p
Porto 3 1 1 1 2-2 4p
{/pre>

So if it's a draw between Arsenal and Porto than
all the three teams will have the same amount of
points. Both Arsenal and Porto have a greater goal
difference so they will qualify. So cinebelul is
right a draw between Arsenal will qualify both
with Arsenal first and Porto second.

Re: 6 th spot made by doctor :D
Author: gabriel1 Date: 23-11-2006, 23:16	5 Germany 40.221 6 Portugal 39.916 7 Romania 38.831 ...Romania still aproaching from 6th place...