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Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: Integral Date: 25-10-2006, 22:45	Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is going on the 6th place in Russian Premier League. Luch-Energia has one extra game. If they win this race for 5th place, some European team will have a nice trip through a half of the World There are still 5 games to play (Luch - 6 games), but what if...

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: Kramelito Date: 25-10-2006, 23:27 Edited by: Kramelito at: 25-10-2006, 23:31	Luch-Energiya!!! Luch-Energiya!!! Hope they will succeed. They will have a big fun travelling over Canada and Alaska (seems a better route for them) if they play in UEFA with teams like Nacional Madeira Funchal or any Feroe / Icelandic team. What a nice European derby!!! BTW, a topic was already posted about Luch-Energiya on Q2/2006 but I cannot make the link. I’m a newbie.

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: isidromv Date: 26-10-2006, 09:48	Here is the link.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 26-10-2006, 11:27
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 26-10-2006, 11:32

@Kramelito

Intertoto is also devided regionally, so they will play a team from Eastern Europe in that case. But still it could be closer to fly over Canada or the North Pole maybe.

And by the way, 5th place might not be enough for Intertoto. That depends on the outcome of the Russian Cup. If a team outside the top 4 wins the Cup or is the losing finalist versus the champions or runner-up, then 4th place will go to Intertoto.

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: badgerboy Date: 26-10-2006, 12:09 Edited by: badgerboy at: 26-10-2006, 12:12	Still - would be a nice trip for Basel! (Though I know the game being played in Moscow is most likely!). Edit: Or even more so for a team like Marseille of course, who were also in the same "geographical zone for this year's Intertoto!

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Interto
Author: panda Date: 26-10-2006, 13:19	Yes, please, please. Having Vladivostok competing would definitely apeal to my sense of the surreal. Forza Luch-EnergiA!

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: badgerboy Date: 26-10-2006, 13:22	Should the game be played in Vladivostock it would be quite handy for all those Man U. & Real Madrid players on Far East tours to pop in & watch the game!

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: Integral Date: 26-10-2006, 22:28	@Forza-AZ You are right about Russian Cup possibilities, and considering the Cup, another objection is that Luch-Energia is already out of the Cup.

Author: Kramelito
Date: 27-10-2006, 00:08

Forza-AZ: Yes, North Pole can be a valuable option for them. I wrongly remembered Russia was part of the Northern Europe, so you’re right on the fact those teams can’t meet at the begining. I hope anyway they will earn a Russian spot for Europe and qualify further for the UEFA group stage’s on round 2, (with, say..., Funchal, Aberdeen, Palermo and Sevilla).
If the game starts at 20:45 local time in Vladivostok, it would be broadcasted live at 12:45 in Central Europe. Nice to watch the game on lunch but I think I can become a big problem for Luch-Energiya to play too many matches in UEFA coz probably they can’t manage so many long travels to play both Russian Championship and UEFA Cup.

badgerboy: Basel will surely enjoy to play in Vladivostok after having loudly complain for having to play as far as Grozny and in Kazakhstan in the last years.

Is the SuperCup (Europe/SudAm) still played in Tokyo? If in that case Luch-Energiya win the next Champions League

they will be granted a big advantage to nearly play at home for that final.

Author: Lupta_Steaua
Date: 27-10-2006, 05:03

I really don't see why some people here are so enthusiasted about this idea. And my personal believe on the topic, is that if Luch gets the spot, UEFA should push on Russia to split its championship on geogrphical grouunds. It should also reconsider Kazahstan's application for UEFA membership, because they don't really belong here.

If this does happen though, and people go along with it, I guess FIFA should seriously consider creating its own FIFA Champions League and FIFA Cup. Why lose the money to UEFA?

Author: Lupta_Steaua
Date: 27-10-2006, 05:40

But actually, if I still remember my geography clases, Europe and Asia are one continent - Eurasia, right? So it is kind of unfair having two football federations on one continent in respect to the other ones.

Antarctida has none, and not even 0.25 places allocated for the World Cup

).

So, I suggest the creation of a UEAFA federation with a CL final: Shanghai Liancheng Zobon - FC Barcelona, and a UEFA final: Shanghai Shenhua - FC Sevilla.

I wonder how will the regions be split up then? Or will UEAFA still let the eastern european teams to take care of the rest of the continent?

Sorry, guys for the ironic post. I just don't want any of the teams wasting more time on the trip than for trainning and the game itself.

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: badgerboy Date: 27-10-2006, 13:03	Lupta - I see this as kind of a "fun" thread. People getting "excited" about "far out" possibilities. I'm pretty sure it's been said before though that Luch-Energiya would have to play any European games in Moscow as they don't have the facilities at home. A shame for their fans of course.

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: Ricardo Date: 27-10-2006, 13:32	Lupta, I see a much easier solution: Let's break Uefa in East and West. Aout where the iron curtain was. Eastern teams would not have problems with the rich clubs that dominated their cup and western teams would not have problem with travelling to the (far) east, playing(/losing) on a muddy field, ...

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: Integral Date: 27-10-2006, 15:35	Lupta, if you propose to reconsider the Kazakhstan application for UEFA membership, what should UEFA do with the memberships of Israel and Turkey? And what should Asian Football Federation do with the membership of Australia?

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: Kramelito Date: 28-10-2006, 00:02	Lupta_Steaua, Relax! This is not the most important threat but it can worth a discussion for some. Vladivostok is part of Russia and Russia play in UEFA, it’s an European team. China not!

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Interto
Author: Overgame Date: 28-10-2006, 03:31	And where should play Moscow ? Asia ?

Author: Lupta_Steaua
Date: 28-10-2006, 05:33

Badgerboy,

That was actually my intention to make fun of the topic from the other side (and this, of course, can be achieved by showing how ridiculous the situation can be).

Ricardo,

Are you a supporter of the iron curtain? how far east did you get to be able to set a border between East and West

Integral,

I actually meant to put a stres on the distance to be travelled, as this seemed to have been UEFA's reasoning on splitting the regions (even though I'm not 100% sure of that. It could just be an advantage offerred to the Scandinavic countries)

Karmelito,

In case you wondered, I knew very well the country that Vladivostok belongs to. And exactlly because of this, I suggestted that the Russian championship gets split into an European and Asian affiliation.

Overgame,

Read my post with more attention.

Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: antonio62tr Date: 28-10-2006, 15:59	i have seen several post discussing Turkey and Israel's position at Europe. I wanna say that get a map and check where is Armenia and Georgia. Also Iceland... One more-Turkish European part is larger than Belgium and some more countries. Population of that part has one of the biggest in Europe.

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: Kramelito Date: 28-10-2006, 19:41	Splitting Russia on two federations (Europe - Asia) is simply unrealistic. We have to accept the fact that all the Russia is politically and footballistically an European country even if geographically it’s a two-continents country.

Author: Lupta_Steaua
Date: 29-10-2006, 02:30

Karmelito,

I would not call the split of a country in several federations as unrealistic. We have Great Britain, which "politically" is united (at least at an external policy point of view) but from a footballistic perspective it is represented by 4 different federations. The USSR and Yugoslavia are also good examples, as the two federations of those countries created 21 new ones, out of which 6 managed to qualify to at least one final turnament (Russia, Ukraine, Latvia, and Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia) of national cometitions, and 2 of them (Russia and Ukraine) showed some very good results in European competitions. Just as a reminder, the first Russian team to win a European Cup, managed to do that only after Russia got its own federation.

Thus, my point was not a negative one. It could actually provide improvements to the Russian football. On one side, they would have a double chance of qualifying to major national football competitions. On the other, the players would get more international experience, as more teams would participate in external competitions (4 in Europe, and I am not sure how many in Asia). South Korea, Japan and China are working hard on improving their football level, and thus I don't see how playing such teams on an usual basis would hurt.

You could also have a Russian general champion, by organizing a final play-off or championship between the teams of the two federations, best ones (number would need to be determined). Moreover, this would help to accumulate "knowledge" regarding playing stiles, strategies, schemes, etc.

So, to conclude, I don't really care how you organize your internal soccer competition, it is for your federation or clubs to figure that out. I simply would not like a team from Moldova or Romania to travel half of the world to play a supposedly European game.

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: Lupta_Steaua Date: 29-10-2006, 03:01	antonio62tr, This might have been discussed eariler, but I would really appriciate if you provided the list of Turkish teams from the European side. I would be most interested in the big three, but as it looks like, we might have new appearances from Turkey

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 29-10-2006, 10:09	@Lupta_Steaua Only Galatasaray and Besiktas are based in Europe. Fenerbahce is from the Asian part of Istanbul and all other teams are also from the Asian part of Turkey.

Author: Giuseppe
Date: 29-10-2006, 16:56
Edited by: Giuseppe
at: 29-10-2006, 19:49

Even though politics have more to do with UEFA membership, I think a geographical or at least historical explanation can be given to the membership of certain countries. This is how I see things (a personal view, I don't expect everybody to agree with everything):

-Russia: yes, most of it is in Asia, but the most relevant part of it is in Europe. There's no point in making a big deal about it.

-Armenia, Azerbaidjan, Georgia: these countries are part of the Caucasus, which geographically is situated on the border between Europe and Asia. These countries being considered part of Europe or Asia is a matter of personal choice; I don't see any problem with them being a part of Europe.

-Kazakhstan: geographically the Eastern border of Europe is the Ural mountain chain. A large part of Kazakhstan is situated to the west (south-west) of the Urals, which means that a big part of Kazankhstan is actually in Europe. If we admit that Russia is European even if most of it is actually in Asia, then I don't see a problem with Kazakhstan either.

-Turkey: the best part of Turkey is in Asia, but Turkey has been such a big part of European history that, even if we like it or not, it is more of a part of Europe than it is of Asia. This said the mere fact that they do have a European part makes the argument even more solid.

-Israel: 100% part of Asia; their affiliation to UEFA is mostly political (we all know a match between Maccabi Haifa and Esteghlal Teheran, just a random example, wouldn't go very well). Still historically and culturally Israel has much more in common with Europe than with Asia. I see no big problem here.

-Cyprus: another country that is usually considered to be part of Asia, but which has strong cultural and historical links with Europe (and especially Greece).

-Iceland: geographically it's an island in the middle of the North Atlantic. Geologically Iceland is situated on the border (the rift) between the North American and Eurasian continental shelves. So again it is a matter of personal choice if you want to consider them European or not. Still due to cultural and historical links with Scandinavia I see no problem with Iceland being considered part of Europe.

In conclusion: Go Energia Vladivostok!

I'd just love to see them in Europe. Too bad they'd be forced to play in Moscow...
You see Europe is little bit bigger than generally thought. Too bad for those who think that being east of the former Iron Courtain means being part of the 'Far East'. Too bad no one asked the Swiss or the English (I remember Basel and some English team, I can't remember which one, bitching because they had to go 'out of their way' to reach a venue for a European match tie) how big they want Europe to be, for their own convenience

Sorry for the above sarcasm, but hey I'm only Romanian

Author: badgerboy
Date: 29-10-2006, 17:17

I say "boo" to some anonymous Russian city - just because it happens to be geographically remote.

Go the Tatars of Kazan! "Robbed" by Parma in this years UEFA Cup, Rubin are running into form just at the right time to snatch the Intertoto spot (assuming the Cup winner comes from the top 4 at least). Luch ran out of luck today & lost against Saturn - Rubin beat Torpedo to open up a three point gap.

Actually looking at the table Luch are already down to 9th. The club in 5th (Rubin) is only 5 points ahead of the club in 13th - so maybe the "excitement" generated by Luch's lofty position wsas a little premature.

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Interto
Author: Giuseppe Date: 29-10-2006, 18:16	Come on mr. badgerboy! Vladivostok is hardly an anonymous city Now if you want to talk about an anonymous city we should switch our attention to Bolton Of course I'm merely joking

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: bert.kassies Date: 29-10-2006, 19:32	Guiseppe, good post. I agree fully with your reply. It's my personal view too.

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Interto
Author: Giuseppe Date: 29-10-2006, 19:54	Thanks, Bert The only thing that bothers me is that I'm taking the Russian side now :D I'm joking again, I have nothing against Russians... in fact disregard this whole post, 'cause I've just had a couple of Heinekens BTW the Dutch sure know their way with beer

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Interto
Author: bert.kassies Date: 29-10-2006, 20:28	Mmm, I don't mind if you take some Heineken before using the forum. It does not seem to unsettle the quality of your posts

Author: modano
Date: 29-10-2006, 20:45

I'm pretty sure a few Heinekens can't do any harm, considering the "beer" is closer related to sewer water

On-topic: as long as there opponents aren't Belgian, i'd love to see Vladivostok at the European scene.

But i'm not sure if it would be in Vladivostok's own interest to participate in a European Cup, never thought about jet-lags? If you have to play against them, you only have to travel there once. But they have to travel up to 3-4 times to Western-Europe (for in Vladivostok's case, even Romania would be Western-Europe).

Author: Giuseppe
Date: 29-10-2006, 21:22

Sewer water? bleah... I've always thought of beer as 'liquid bread'

it is made of cereals, isn't it? Then again vodka and whiskey are also made from cereals so this judgement won't stand scrutiniy

Actually Romania is about 2000km from the Western edge of Europe and about 2000km from the Eastern one, so technically Romania is in Central Europe

It kind of busts any geographical prejudice one may have

With that in mind even Romania would seem in Central Europe when coming from Bolton, wouldn't it?

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: Kramelito Date: 29-10-2006, 23:10 Edited by: Kramelito at: 30-10-2006, 00:04	Guiseppe: after those many beers, are you located mostly in West, in Central, in Eastern or in Far Eastern Europe? Are you still on Earth? Lupta_Steaua, OK, I understand better your opinion now. The Asian Football Confederation is split into 4 regions (clubs).

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: ignjat63 Date: 29-10-2006, 23:15	He is probably everywhere at once

Author: eXta
Date: 30-10-2006, 02:27
Edited by: eXta
at: 30-10-2006, 06:07

2 Giuseppe
>But i'm not sure if it would be in Vladivostok's own interest to >participate in a European Cup, never thought about jet-lags? If you >have to play against them, you only have to travel there once. But >they have to travel up to 3-4 times to Western-Europe (for in >Vladivostok's case, even Romania would be Western-Europe).

The Luch-Energia want to play in European Cup, be sure.

From Vladivostok with love.

Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: antonio62tr Date: 30-10-2006, 08:51	Thanx Guiseppe for post I dont remember exact date but Fifa took Turkey form Europe and joined to Asian federation. But Turkey didnot send their national team to WC QR. So Turkish presence at Europe is also politic i think because Europe cannot deny Turkey fully while they cannot accept too.

Author: Giuseppe
Date: 30-10-2006, 11:48

Look, if you don't believe take a look at map of Europe (preferably one that extends all the way to the Urals

); if you measure the distance between Romania and Eastern and Western edges of Europe you'll see that their about equal.
And to answer the question - my way of thinking makes me Western, my geographical position makes me South-central and Brussels' view on Europe puts me somewhere in the far East. So Ignjat is correct - I'm everywhere at the same time

Author: cska
Date: 30-10-2006, 15:51

@Giuseppe
He-he, absolutely right.
Romania and Bulgaria are South-Central European countries from geographical point of view.
However, in the past everything related with USSR was considered "Eastern" and everything related with Britain, France or Germany was considered "Western".
Technically, only the lands of Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic States are enough to reach the central point of Europe. However, all former Soviet sattelites extend westwards from the center, but are considered "Eastern".
Anyway, it's pity that the present day view of Brussels is that we are in the Far East.
In 1989, when Communism fell, everyone in "Western" Europe was cheering and welcoming us to become a part of all-united Europe. Now, 17 years later, they seem to not want us there.
Before 1989, every single Bulgarian escaping the regime was warmly accepted and given the possibility to live in West Europe. Now, every Bulgarian is under strict scrutiny even if going to visit West Europe only for several days as a tourist...
As Bulgaria was founded in 681 A.D. and the only existing countries in Europe at that time were Byzantine Empire and Frankish Empire, I consider myself as even more European than some other nations that usurped the name as if they are the only "Europeans".

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: saffrhaps Date: 30-10-2006, 17:05	Surely once you (Bulgaria + Romania) are in the EU you will be able at least to move around easily in W Europe. Here (in UK) we have been told that you won't particularly want to come here (and especially not to Scotland) because you are used to much better weather and therefore Spain, for example will be a more favoured destination.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 30-10-2006, 17:43

Saffrhaps wrote:

"Here (in UK) we have been told that you won't particularly want to come here (and especially not to Scotland) because you are used to much better weather and therefore Spain, for example will be a more favoured destination".

Have you really heard that? If so I'd be very dubious about the source. From my experience summers in that part of Europe are pretty good - but nothing like the sort of temperatures you get in southern Spain. The winters (which I haven't experienced first hand) I suspect would be more akin to Glasgow than Sevilla. And the UK is also an appealing destination because of language - the majority of young people at least speak extremely good English.

I think you're right about the "freedom of movement" bit but the work situation is the big issue. The UK government has recently announced new laws to restrict the rights of Bulgarians & Romanians to work in the UK - even after the countries join the EU. This is apparently due to an influx of around 600000 workers in the two years following the last lot of new member states. Apparently the government expected around 15000 - bad estimate!

These rules must seem pretty harsh to anyone from Romania or Bulgaria looking forward to the new opportunities EU Membership was meant to bring. Though I believe the UK was one of the few countries that didn't impose similar restrictions on the last set of new countries. Certainly I recall reading Germany's restrictions were quite severe. Probably another major reason the UK had so many immigrant workers - so few other countries allowed them.

Personally, I don't approve of such restrictions. Though I would approve of very strict guidelines on the circumstances whereby any non-UK immigrant worker could claim state benefits.

Sorry for labouring way off topic but I'm sure it's somehow relevant to Bucharest's proximity to London compared to Vladivostock!

Author: Giuseppe
Date: 30-10-2006, 21:28

Somehow I doubt that when you want to work abroad weather will be a very big issue. I'd say the reason why so many Romanians live in Spain and Italy has less to do with weather and more to do with the fact that a Romanian will manage to fit in a lot easier in another latin/southern country than in a germanic/northern one.
In the past few years England hasn't been a main target for Romanian workers and somehow I doubt it would have become one in the near future. Even if many Romanians know English very well the difference in culture and way of life is pretty substantial and I know that as a Romanian you'll have a hard time fitting in.
Personally the only thing that interests me is freedom of movement; as long as I can travel anywhere I want I'll be satisfied. I'm still in college so working abroad is still many years away and I'm sure that these restrictions will be slowly phased out.

Author: antonio62tr
Date: 31-10-2006, 09:06

I wanna say some words about EU at Turkish point of wiev.

I guess 4-5 million Turkish will migrate to Europe(mostly Germany and UK) if Turkey is accepted to EU weather legally or illegally.Maybe it seems increadible number but normal for a country with 35 million people under 25 years old. Also we see here increasing number of English people start to buy houses at southern coast of Turkey. almost all the limits are full for all cities(there are limits here for foreign people to buy yards).Maybe we will have cities in Turkey named New England or in UK new Istanbul

If we turn back real world i think its impossible EU to accept Turkey...

Author: cska
Date: 31-10-2006, 16:13

@badgerboy
I have nothing against the decision of UK government to restrict acception of BG and RO workers. Nothing, except one issue. The issue is that UK has not implemented such restrictions towards the other East European EU countries. So, it's a matter of discrimination. A Bulgarian or Romanian is not of less human worth than a Pole or Czech.
Personally, I don't think that UK can expect many immigrants from Bulgaria - our total population is around 7,5 million. And also, finding a job in a very distant country is related with costs and risk. Costs of travelling to UK are very high for the persons, who will be motivated to search jobs there. And the risk of not finding a job are still too high.
Anyway, fortunately I am economist by education and I strongy believe that any artificial restriction is inefficient and will collapse in time. I believe in the concept of free market (although Adam Smith lived 2 centuries ago...) and the "invisible hand" of the market. In fact, any artificial restriction stimulates inefficiency. For example, if you impose a tax or a duty on imports that are cheaper than your local production, you will increase their price and you'll harm the consumers, because consumers want cheaper goods (provided the quality is unchanged). So, giving the right of Bulgarians and Romanians to work in UK will only make it sooner for them to be aware that it's not easy living in UK if you can hardly afford even the travelling to UK. Also, salaries depend very much on overall productivity. So, every UK businessman will be interested to find skilled and cheap workers. If few Bulgarians have the skills, they'll get the jobs. But most of them are only cheap, so UK businessmen will not want unskilled workers, even if they are cheap.
Anyway...
@antonio62tr
I don't think that EU does not want Turkey. However, Turkey will have big disputes with (already) 2 members - Greece and Cyprus. Any of them will block any attempt Turkey to be admitted unless the Cyprus problem is resolved. Also, Turkey was very much criticized about the human right violation when the police arrests people (especially Kurds). I know that it's easy to comment if one never lived in Turkey, but EU politicians never lived there and still they make their comments...
It will be really hard for you to persuade them.
But I wish you all the best in your way ahead.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 31-10-2006, 17:03

cska wrote:

"I have nothing against the decision of UK government to restrict acception of BG and RO workers. Nothing, except one issue. The issue is that UK has not implemented such restrictions towards the other East European EU countries. So, it's a matter of discrimination. A Bulgarian or Romanian is not of less human worth than a Pole or Czech".

I wrote before that I disagree with the restrictions but to call them "discrimination" I find harsh. I can see the reasoning behind the policy. Absolutely nothing to do with Bulgarians & Romanians being considered of "less human worth". They are simply joining the Union at a different time & the govermnent is acting (rightly or wrongly) based on the experience of what has happened since the last countries joined. Whilst not being an expert on the subject in any way I would guess that trying to "reimpose" restrictions that have already been lifted would be a whole different kettle of fish.

In 2004 only England, Ireland & Sweden of the 15 members at that time failed to put any restrictions on workers from the 10 new member states. I've no idea how many immigrants from the 10 states have gone to Ireland or Sweden since 2004 (it would be interesting to know) - but for the UK it's apparently about 600000 - mostly Poles so the figures say (though I've no idea where these come from).

The chances are that if all 15 member states (or all 25 now) had the same "open-door" policy the immigration levels would be more evenly spread & it would be easier for the UK to keep the policy they had in 2004. It's all very well Spain & Italy being more appealing destinations for example - but if they remained "closed" and the UK open then any immigrants looking for work opportunities only have one place to go.

There's a little more on the issue here , here and here for anyone who is interested.

Apologies again for being so "off-topic" and indeed "off-forum".

Author: cska
Date: 31-10-2006, 18:38

Badger
I fully accept your explanation. I agree that it is too hard for a country to lift restrictions, when the other big ones don't do it.
Anyway, let's enjoy football in the next 3 days. CL and UC are the footballistic EU. And Bulgaria and Romania have been members of it for a long time...

And, to be "on-topic": I'll be happy to see this group in UC some day:
1. Maccabi Haifa
2. Hafnarfjordur Iceland
3. Trabzonspor Turkey
4. Luch Vladivostok
5. Nacional Madeira
You can see that all those "European" teams are located outside Europe...

But who cares ?! I like the idea.

Author: panda
Date: 01-11-2006, 11:56

@cska

Yes, badgerboy is right; what happened was that the government estimated the number of Poles coming here would be 15000 (maybe the fact most countries would have restrictions was not considered); instead it was 40x that, so although the economic effect has been very good for UK (similar positive for Spain, I believe, but people predominantly from different countries), normal English people were confused how the government could have got it so wrong; and in some cases it was odd to see so many Polish shops / newspapers etc suddenly appear to cater for the new workers. So, with no strong theoretical justification, the government decided it to phase it this time (there is quite a short time limit on these restrictions anyway).

I have to say, speaking personally, that my vastly increased knowledge of football in these new-EU countries resulting from the forum means I look forward all the more to meeting the people from these countries.

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: coppo Date: 01-11-2006, 18:01	@ cska: then you must know that we have luck. There are no Greenland teams in Danish competition ...

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Interto
Author: jpcccc Date: 02-11-2006, 04:30	I have another question: is there a minimum limit for air temperature in UEFA matches ? I remember a CSKA - FC Porto with minus 15 degrees and it was painfull to see...

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Interto
Author: jpcccc Date: 02-11-2006, 04:31	By the way, is there a New Caledonia team in French federation ?

Author: cska
Date: 02-11-2006, 09:15

I think that Greenland or New Caledonian teams will never enter Danish or French league. That's because a team must be really rich to be able to support travelling costs while playing in lower divisions until they reach top division.
Luch Energia is a rich team and they can afford travelling 10 times around the Earth in one season (the total length of their flights is even bigger).
Also, traditionally England, France, Denmark, Portugal, Spain, Netherlands - they all developed as overseas empires in the past and now their overseas lands are administratively self-governed. On the other hand, Russia developed as a vast continental state and also exploring Siberia and the North-East of Asia they met only small local Eskimo population (the Chukchi people). So, only uni-national lands with peoples different from Russians seceded from USSR. And also in Russia, the only separatist people is the Chechen people.
So, Luch Energia is a typical Russian team in a fully integral part of Russia, while a Greenland team will come from an administratively autonomous region not similar to the rest of Denmark.

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: executor Date: 02-11-2006, 09:51	@jpcccc {i>is there a New Caledonia team in French federation ?{/i> I'm not sure about New Caledonia, but there are teams from Reunion and Martinique playing in French Cup

Author: thomas
Date: 02-11-2006, 12:09

There is one team each from Guadeloupe, Martinique, French Guayana, Reunion, Mayotte, New Caledonia and Tahiti in the French Cup. But theese terrritories play their own league, and in some cases the teams compete in their continental team competitions. Champions of Tahiti and New Caledonia play in OFC Club Championship, for example.

Greenland teams play 8 regional tournaments, the winners then meet for the final tournament.

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: cska Date: 02-11-2006, 15:51	And how such teams can afford to travel from Martinique to continental France ? Or from Guadeloupe ? By the way, Greenland is not very populated. How did they manage to find living creatures to play 8 (!!!) regional tournaments ???

Author: thomas
Date: 02-11-2006, 16:11

The overseas trips in French Cup are sponsored by the French FA. So what's the dream of every French amateur team in the first round? Away match on Tahiti!

Greenland indeed has few population, about 50.000 (like Faroer or twice Liechtenstein). They play regional tournaments, because the inhabited regions are separated from each other and flying beetween these regions is long and expensive. They have 50 teams iun Greenland in total, so that is an avarage of 6 per region.

I have this information from a magazin, in wich they interviewed a player from the club Timersorqatigiiffik Ammassak. Pity they do not compete in Europe, would be nice for our reporters ;-)

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: Tupoy Date: 03-11-2006, 05:07	Team P Pts 1 CSKA 26 52 2 Spartak M 26 48 3 Lokomotiv 26 44 4 Zenit 26 43 5 RUBIN 25 37 6 FC Moskva 26 36 7 Saturn 26 36 8 LUCH-ENERGIA 25 34 Matches 4-5.11 ((26 round from 30) Rubin - Dinamo Moskow(14) Luch - Amkar(13) Luch have good chances to occupy 6-7 place in this round. And they have one extra game with Rubin at home

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: Lupta_Steaua Date: 03-11-2006, 06:51 Edited by: Lupta_Steaua at: 03-11-2006, 06:56	Hey Tupoy, We all know that it is not that easy for a team to get European competition after a first year promotion. Does Luch have some considerable financial help? Because other than that, I could not explain their remarcable achievement this year.

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: Tupoy Date: 03-11-2006, 11:06	Lupta_Steaua No, they have no especial financial help, average Russian players. Only a geographical location. They have won almost all home matches - 1 draw and 1 defeat from Zenit

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: Integral Date: 03-11-2006, 12:02	@ jpcccc Yes, such a limit exists and it is exactly minus 15 degrees.

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: Integral Date: 03-11-2006, 12:08	@ Giuseppe Thank you for your post explaining the arguments of UEFA memberships of "not at all European" countries. I think, the things are much more clear for me now.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 03-11-2006, 13:56

"Does Luch have some considerable financial help? Because other than that, I could not explain their remarcable achievement this year".

Easy Lupta it's not that remarkable!

Show me the table at the end of the season and I might think differently but Luch although only three points off 5th spot are also only two points ahead of the team in 13th.

More remarkable to me is how bad things must be at both Dinamo & Torpedo Moscow. Assuming I'm right that it's two up, two down in Russia they seem to have the second relegation spot between them.

Maybe Tupoy has some info on why things are currently so bad at these clubs?

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: Tupoy Date: 03-11-2006, 14:54	badgerboy Dynamo's footballers play for the sake of making money, not for result. Torpedo... There is no money to buy strong football players, bad luck. They have 90000 stadium where will be CL07-08 final but have no money...

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Interto
Author: Giuseppe Date: 03-11-2006, 16:13	@Integral - thanks, but really I only used basic geography and history knowledge and a little bit of common sense

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: psw Date: 03-11-2006, 16:20	Tupoy Correction - Luch has 2 draws at home (Locomotive and Moskva)

Author: conscious
Date: 03-11-2006, 17:11

@badgerboy
Dynamo suffer from very poor managenent. They have spent huge sums of money on players (bying a number of stars - the Portuguese, European champion Seitaridis, Russian internationals like Ovchinnikov, Smertin, Semshov), yet it has been reported that players' wages had been delayed. They change managers often. In short, they look unable to put it all together.

Torpedo are a different story, they seem to have no support. They have the smallest fan base in the league, and club owners (Luzhniki sports complex) don't look really interested in them. Torpedo budget is relatively modest, they can't buy good players and before this season they lost their biggest star, Semshov.

Both clubs never suffered a relegation (Dynamo are in the top flight since 1936, Torpedo since 1938), but their rich history is not going to save them.

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Interto
Author: conscious Date: 03-11-2006, 17:15	By the way, yesterday it was confirmed that FC Khimki are promoted to the Russian Premier League. Khimki is a city directly adjacent to Moscow, and the team will likely play their home matches in Moscow because their stadium is too small.

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: Tupoy Date: 06-11-2006, 06:16	Rubin - Dinamo M 0-1 (Derlei 15') Luch - Amkar 3-1 Team P Pts 1 CSKA 27 55 2 Spartak M 27 51 3 Lokomotiv 27 47 4 Zenit 27 43 5 FC Moskva 27 39 6 LUCH-ENERGIA 26 37 7 Rubin 26 37 8 Saturn 27 36

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: Zibir Date: 06-11-2006, 13:34	I think, that for FC Luch-Energiya will be very difficult to get 5 place. My prediction is: 5. FC Moskva - 46 6. FC Rubin - 44 7. FC Luch-Energiya - 41 Luch-Energiya has 2 games of 4 at Vladivostok, and 1 of them with PFC CSKA... Rostov RD - Luch-Energiya VV Luch-Energiya VV - Rubin KZ Luch-Energiya VV - CSKA MV Spartak NC - Luch-Energiya VV

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: psw Date: 12-11-2006, 11:21	After match Luch-Rubin 12.11.06 (2-1): 1 CSKA 28 16 7 5 42 - 26 55 2 Spartak M 28 13 13 2 55 - 33 52 3 Lokomotive 28 13 8 7 43 - 33 47 4 Zenit 28 12 10 6 40 - 29 46 5 Luch-Energia 28 12 4 12 37 - 35 40 6 Rubin 28 11 7 10 40 - 36 40 7 Moskva 28 9 13 6 39 - 35 40

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: badgerboy Date: 12-11-2006, 14:52	Luch are only 7th on head-to-head results. They lose to FC Moscow on head-to-head and presumably to Rubin if away goals count. Rubin definitely wins in the three-way table. With two games to go there are still six other teams within five points of 5th spot. Very, very tight...

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: psw Date: 12-11-2006, 16:02	badgerboy Head-to-head is NOT very important. The main factor is the total number of winnings and Luch now has the largest one.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 12-11-2006, 16:18

psw

Thanks for that.

It will teach me to rely on the tiebreaker rules on european football statistics!

So Luch is one win up on Rubin.

It still seems like a very open contest with two games to go. A lot of teams very close to 40 points. It might also depend a lot on how bothered individual teams are about competing in the last matches. Which teams are aware that 5th spot might mean Europe & which ones are actually bothered about this.

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Interto
Author: conscious Date: 12-11-2006, 17:13	For the record, the order of tiebreakers is: number of wins, goal difference, head-to-head (up to away goals), total goals scored, total away goals scored.

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: Tupoy Date: 17-11-2006, 13:46	4. Zenit 46 pts 5. LUCH 40 6. Rubin 40 7. FC Moskva 40 Next round (29 of 30) 18.11 Luch - CSKA Saturn - Rubin Tom' - FC Moskva It is very difficultly matchs for all three teams

Author: badgerboy
Date: 18-11-2006, 17:58

CSKA are Champions after going to Vladivostock & winning 4-0. Spartak Moscow are also qualified for next season's CL. Lokomotiv are a point ahead of Zenit in the battle for a guaranteed UEFA Cup spot. Both have winnable home matches next week. The loser of this battle will be depending on the outcome of the Cup to see if they play UEFA Cup or Intertoto Cup next year.

Luch's defeat means their chances of reaching the IT cup are very slim even if 5th spot proves good enough to provide a European place. Rubin Kazan need just a draw in their last match - at home to Amkar - to ensure 5th.

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: coppo Date: 25-11-2006, 21:31	Can anyone tell me how this is finished ? Will Luch play intertoto or UEFA cup or nothing at all ? Thanks.

Re: Luch-Energia (Vladivostok) is close to Intertoto!
Author: badgerboy Date: 26-11-2006, 13:26	The last matches all kick off in about 40 minutes. So the answer should be available in a little under three hours time.

Author: Floridian
Date: 26-11-2006, 16:03

Russian 2006 Premier Liga season is over.
Lokomotiv held on to the third place and guaranteed UEFA cup spot.
Zent Sankt-Petersburg is 4th, with guaranteed Intertoto cup spot, which can turn into UEFA cup spot depending on the Ruyssian cup outcome (will continue in the spring).
If Zenit gets UEFA cup spot, 5th team Rubin Kazan will get Intertoto spot (if they are interested, which seems likely).
FC Moscow is 6th, and Luch-Energia is only on the 7th (equal on points with Tom' and Spartak Nalchik, but Luch has more wins).