Forum

xml	No replies possible in the archive

Author: Ricardo
Date: 18-08-2006, 08:33

Currently Tottenham is the first unseeded team in UC-Round 1. Tottenham can move up because of the failing of one of the current seeded UC-teams:

FK Ventspils(Lat) - Newcastle United(Eng) 0-1
Suduva Marijampole(Lit) - Club Brugge(Bel)) 0-2
FC Basel(Sui)) - FC Vaduz(Lie) 1-0
Young Boys(Sui) - Olympique Marseille(Fra)) 3-3
Hertha BSC(Ger)) - Ameri Tbilisi(Geo) 1-0
Karvan Evlakh(Azb) - Slavia Praha(Cze)) 0-2
SV Mattersburg(Aut) - Wisla Kraków(Pol)) 1-1
Flora Tallinn(Est) - Brøndby IF(Den)) 0-0
FC Fehérvár(Hun) - Grasshoppers Zürich(Sui) 1-1

It doesn't look like any surprise coming up: home wins, away draws and away wins. No seeded team lost!

Tottenham can still go down in the ranking if there will be a surprise in CL-Q3:

Dinamo Zagreb(Cro) - Arsenal(Eng) 0-3
AC Milan(Ita) - Red Star Belgrade(Srb) 1-0
Hearts FC(Sco) - AEK Athens(Gre) 1-2
Liverpool(Eng) - Maccabi Haifa(Isr) 2-1
Standard Liège(Bel) - Steaua Bucuresti(Rom) 2-2
FC København(Den) - Ajax(Ned) 1-2
Shakhtar Donetsk(Ukr) - Legia Warsaw(Pol) 1-0
Galatasaray(Tur) - Mladá Boleslav(Cze) 5-2
Austria Salzburg(Aut) - Valencia(Esp) 1-0
CSKA Moscow(Rus) - SCP Ruzomberok(Svk) 3-0
Lille OSC(Fra) - Rabotnicki Skopje(Mac) 3-0

Here things look a bit closer to a surprise(Valencia lost)

Surprises always will happen and normally there are more surprises in UC then in CL, but this year, I don't know. Maybe CSKA Sofia will lose their seeding sooner then Tottenham being seeded!

Re: Chances Tottenham seeded/CSKA Sofia unseeded
Author: FireStorm Date: 18-08-2006, 09:31	Don't count on that! CSKA will win their away game against the anti-football playing team of Haiduk Kula. Well, hopefully Tottenham will be seeded to. We (CSKA) don't want to play against D. Berbatov again . And you don't want to play against us either - trust me .

Author: badgerboy
Date: 18-08-2006, 09:44

Ricardo

You missed the Southern-Med matches.

OFK Beograd v AJ Auxerre 1-0
FK Partizan Beograd v NK Maribor 2-1
FK Sarajevo v AFC Rapid Bucuresti 1-0
Hapoel Tel-Aviv FC v NK Domzale 1-2
AC Omonia v PFC Litex Lovech 0-0
FC Dinamo 1948 Bucuresti v Beitar Jerusalem FC 1-0
PFC CSKA Sofia v FK Hajduk Kula 0-0

I think when you add these in there is much more likelihood of a surprise. I still think the seeded team will progress in most of these ties (Hapoel would be the obvious exception), but most of the seeded teams look much more vulnerable on paper than those in the other sections. To me, after Hapoel, Partizan (because Maribor are on a role) and Litex (because I can see Omonia getting an away goal) look the most vulnerable.

I'd say a little hope for West Ham as well as Tottenham! Though Valencia could offset that...

Author: Ricardo
Date: 18-08-2006, 10:33

Indeed I miseed quite some matches. I counted too much on technology. But I am still pressing the buttons and made a mistake. Sorry.
From a very doubtfull change of seeded/unseeded role, it now looks to be certain for me that Tottenham will be seeded. Domzale look pretty sure to upset Hapoel. And also Maribor, Sarajevo, Beitar and Hajduk have a chance on a surprise.
It can bring even Westham in seeded position. And I hear the conspiracy complaints already flying around as Dinamo Zagreb and Red Star will be the first unseeded....

Re: Chances Tottenham seeded/CSKA Sofia unseeded
Author: Cro_nogomet Date: 18-08-2006, 11:15	I've already once said that i believe that the seeding threshold will be just between Dinamo Zagreb and Crvena zvezda. And looking at the results of UC QR2 i think that's realistic. Hapoel is surely out, Rapid, CSKA, Litex, Partizan, Marseille and Wisla have very tough tasks in the 2nd leg. I don't think that all of them will go through.

Author: CantSmileWithoutYou
Date: 18-08-2006, 11:21

Will be keeping a close eye on things next wednesday and thursday hoping that Tottenham will sneek into the top 40. It's my first chance to travel to European competition with Tottenham and i want it to last past September!!

Hoping Valencia will pull that back in the Champions League, but there is always one surprise. The UEFA Cup is very finely balanced... lots of ties could go either way.

What annoys me is the whole Intertoto Cup factor... i think it's unfair that these sides should be seeded above teams that qualified for Europe automatically through their respective leagues. Maybe we should have come 7th last season and not 5th!!

Author: londonserb
Date: 18-08-2006, 11:35

Hang on a second, how comes everyone is completely ignoring OFK here? One goal in Auxerre, and Auxerre are in real trouble and one of the seeds with the biggest co-efficients, could go.

I think OFK Belgrade are one of the best chances for a shock. Also Domzale are almost already through. I reckon there could quite easily be four or 5 shocks - and 3 could involve serbian teams (OFK and Hajduk could surprise, Partizan could be surprised)

Author: executor
Date: 18-08-2006, 11:44
Edited by: executor
at: 18-08-2006, 11:45

@CantSmileWithoutYou (long nickname you have

)

What are you talking about? If Tottenham would have finished 7th, they would've had to play 4 extra games to get where they are now and they would've had the SAME coefficient (any points gathered this season would've been taking into account NEXT season). Newcastle isn't seeded because of the wins in IT, but because they have a huge coefficient gained in the previous 5 seasons. The same for the other seeded teams from IT.

Re: Chances Tottenham seeded/CSKA Sofia unseeded
Author: Ricardo Date: 18-08-2006, 12:31	londonserb, I think there is a huge difference between Auxerre away and Auxerre at home. I have seen it before that after a first (away) match Auxerre looks to be in trouble, but then at home wins easily with 3-0 or so. Ofcourse this year can be different, a 1-0 home victory is quit good, no away goals for Auxerre, but I don't think so.

Author: panda
Date: 18-08-2006, 12:58
Edited by: panda
at: 18-08-2006, 13:01

@ricardo (+badgerboy)

Thanks for this topic. It enables lazy posters like me to follow the 'seedings prediction game' without having to turn to and check other pages!

@can'tsmile etc

Yes! executor is right!

I am neutral about Spurs, but I agree that I see how strong they are becoming under Jol and how incredibly inconsistent Newcastle are, and it seems strange to see Newcastle up there with the giant co-efficient and Tottenham with the minimum English one.

So if someone were complaining about the UEFA system, they would have two lines of argument (both seen on this forum)

1) 'the IT is a sneaky back door now, for teams in big leagues who don't do well in the domestic season, and get a second chance to play the UC.' I tried this complaint, but people told me:

"You have to understand that for ANY country, the IT team still has to go through more matches than the directly-qualified UC team."

2) '5 years is a long time, especially unweighted (i.e. recent years don't count more) and the system takes no account of the present strength of teams, only past results.'

I guess the answer to this is - there isn't an easy way to take account of present strength, and the better answer is:

"If your team is strong (and let's hope, for the sake of English football, Spurs carries on being strong and even improves), your team WILL qualify for Europe for several seasons and then has the chance to win points for itself, points that will stay valid for 5 years."

Author: Nick
Date: 18-08-2006, 13:08

Actually I don't expect more than 2 upsets in QR2. Hapoel Tev Aviv is the hottest candidate for sure and they will need a small miracle in order to qualify. The big questions is who will join them. My list in order of chances of elimination is: Rapid, Litex, Partizan, Auxerre, Dinamo, CSKA, Wisla, OM. Actually Wisla and OM are in good positions and I don't believe they will fail but last year we has some similar cases with weaker teams winning away after a home defeat most spectacular cases being Partizan - Petah Tikva and Sporting - Halmstad.

Author: londonserb
Date: 18-08-2006, 13:17

I think you'll be very surprised Ricardo. OFK have an excellent young team, with something like 6 u-21 internationals in their ranks. Of course, it's quite possible for Auxerre to win this game at home by 2 or 3, but, like I say, one goal for OFK, and Auxerre are in real, real trouble. I think 1-0 is a terrible score for teams, because the away side can play very conservative, and the longer the game goes on, the more the home side have to push forward, increasing the chances of an away goal.

That's why I'd love to see Zvezda beat Milan but I think even if Zvezda win, Milan will score and defeat them on aggregate.

Anyway, I think you maybe missed my point a little. In all the posts above my first one - there was not one mention of OFK as a possible surprise - even though teams who didn't win at home are included. I'm not saying OFK will win, or even now, are favourites to win - but to not include them at all, I cannot understand, )especially when teams like Omonia, who have only drawn at home) have been mentioned.

Re: Chances Tottenham seeded/CSKA Sofia unseeded
Author: CantSmileWithoutYou Date: 18-08-2006, 13:26	@ Excecutor I know coming 7th wouldn't be better... was just trying to make light of the situation. It's our own fault for being dreadful for many years now and only having qualified for the UEFA Cup once in 15 years means we may pay the price in the early stages. Hopefully we can build up some points this year, qualify again for next season and have a serious go at winning the cup.

Re: Chances Tottenham seeded/CSKA Sofia unseeded
Author: redandwhite Date: 18-08-2006, 13:32	I think CSKA and Partizan have real problems (Hajduk Kula is undefeeded at home in past championship and Maribor is an ambitios team). Will see on 24th august.

Author: panda
Date: 18-08-2006, 13:36

@cantsmile etc

Yes, but at the same time you can take pride in your present strength. Most teams would say Spurs are someone to fear in the UC.

You can look on the bright side. Yes- it's a key step to qualify for the UC Group stages. And true, in the draw for the GS, the co-eficient will still be used to seed you, so you will be in a relatively stronger group, since you'll be in a lower pot than a team with the co-eff of Newcastle.

But once you are in the GS, your performance will no longer depend on your co-efficient. the last 32 is drawn according to GS results (group winners v thirds, seconds v CL 3rd placers); so then it's in Spurs' own hands, and you can say: well M'boro got a long way last year, and you'd back Spurs to do as well.......

I mean, look at Chelsea (I know, not the sweetest example for a Spurs fan) - they are still not in Pot A for the Group draw, yet for a couple of seasons now, they have been one of the teams with a realistic chance of winning the CL. Seeding isn't everything, but I agree, UC R1 (like CL QR3) is like a final in itself.

Re: Chances Tottenham seeded/CSKA Sofia unseeded
Author: Overgame Date: 18-08-2006, 13:42	Lol, you are (perhaps) unseeded for the 1st round, but for the GS, the coef is not too important. After the GS, the coef is not taken into account for the 1/16 (I don't know for the 1/8 and 1/4). Your chances to win the cup, after the 1st round are similar to your chances next year

Author: CantSmileWithoutYou
Date: 18-08-2006, 13:59
Edited by: CantSmileWithoutYou
at: 18-08-2006, 14:00

@ Panda

I know what you mean! I haven't been this nervous about a draw and a match ever i don't think! To get the chance to follow Tottenham abroad is a dream come true for me.

We have a good squad that is capable of reaching the later stages... what worries me is that European football is a new thing for alot of our players, and i hope they will be able to adapt quickly. alot of good sides... Feyonoord etc were knocked out in the first round last season, i don't want to see us become part of that group!

Author: Ricardo
Date: 18-08-2006, 14:53

londonserb, I'd love to be surprised. It's just that I have a ver clear memory of a Ajax-Auxerre game 1 1/2 year ago. Ajax won at home 1-0, where it should have been 4-0 or 5-0, just bad luck that the ball just wouldn't go in. The return match was a completely different match. Ajax managed to score luckily, but was clearly defeated 3-1. 2 rounds later(CSKA) they lost first match 4-0 and at home clear won again 2-0. Ofcourse it does not say anything about current performance, but be aware.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 18-08-2006, 15:10

Ok, does not belong to this topic, but you mentioned it panda: Chelsea in pot A. Will it happen next year?
They are currently 12th. They can drop maybe 1 place due to......Newcastle who are 2 points behind. PSV is next, 7 points behind and then AS Romoa 13 points behind. No, they got to look up. Juventus is 15 points ahead and should be reachable(though they won't play CL anyway next season), and then we have within 2 points ManUtd, Valencia and Porto. Beating these makes them 8 and a sure pot A team. And that brought together in 4 years! (02/03 they only got 2 points + 3.2 for being English) I think that's great(?). It shows the difference between the real top-teams and the sub-top. I mean Milan has 110 points, nr 20, will most times be sure pot B, but still only has half of this points (ca. 55!)

Author: cska
Date: 18-08-2006, 15:11

@Ricardo
Don't be so confident in Auxerre at home.
Last year in R1 they only won 2-1 versus Levski after 0-1 deficit.
It was enough for Levski to win 1-0 at home and they did it.
Anyway, it's true that last year Levski played with them just after Auxerre had lost by 7-0 in one of their nightmare matches in their domestic league history. This year they seem better, but up to now they have only played with Farul Constanta, which was not a measure for European class.
OFK was a disaster last year and lost to the mediocre Bulgarian team Loko Plovdiv (which later on had the chance to eliminate Bolton, but conceded two late goals at home). However, this year they have several U-21 internationals and obviously they have improved their playing.
So, neither is Auxerre so dreadful at home, nor is OFK so weak, to predict a 2-0 or 3-0 easy win.

Author: panda
Date: 18-08-2006, 15:56

@ricardo

well, thank you again, now for the Chelsea 'simulation.'

If I had thought about it I would have looked at the team rankings and played the 'Chelsea Pot prediction game' for myself.

As I said on another thread, it was comical that some reports of the GS pot seedings presented the Chelsea Pot B situation as if it were a blow, or a surprise.

However, what is interesting here is the idea you raise 'How long does it take a club to rise to Pot A, given ideal circumstances?' In this case, then 4 yrs. we can say that Abramovich, as richest owner in football = ideal cirucmstances - he can afford anyone, though not buy everyone because some players etc prefer a different path, e.g. to big bigger fish in smaller pond.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 18-08-2006, 16:13
Edited by: badgerboy
at: 18-08-2006, 16:23

I know it's kind of fun trying to figure out which teams will be seeded & which ones not. But I would just like to remind people that being seeded doesn't guarantee you a place in the Group Stage.

13 unseeded teams won last year - a big year for shocks with no less than six of the top ten seeds in R1 being beaten. UEFA Cup R1 isn't CLQR3 - there are no unbeatable teams. Even in a more "normal" year (2004-05) with only one of the top ten seeds losing still 10 out of the 40 lost. 1 in 4 seeds out in R1. That's still quite a lot!

The raising of the seeding threshold is also significant. In 2004-05 the lowest seeded team had a coefficient of 16.177. Last year it was 18.877. Of the five teams that would have been seeded in 2004-05 but weren't last year four won. This year - assuming no upsets - no less than seven teams that would have been seeded last year will be "dangerous floaters" this. If you go back to the seeding threshold for 2004-05 the number goes up to 11.

On Tottenham's prospects. Well being unseeded in R1 certainly isn't a bar to having a good UEFA Cup. In 2004-05 three of the ten unseeded winners negotiated the group stage. By far the most successful were AZ Alkmaar - only narrow semi-final losers. Last year 5 of the 13 made it through - with three of those reaching the quarter-finals.

More stats. as I'm on a role. Tottenham are actually the most successful English club in Europe based on percentage of ties won (that's all straight knockout matches whether over one or two legs). An 80% success rate. West Ham aren't bad either (77.78%) but Tottenham's record is spread over an impressive 50 ties (all be it not much since the mid-80s) - West Ham's only over 18. Compare those records to "seeded" Blackburn. Just one win in 16 European games - 1 qualification in 5 when it comes to knockout matches. By far the worst record of any English club to play more than a couple of European matches in the past fifty years.

On the seeding pots - it looks inevitable that Chelsea will be in Pot 1 next year. I'd say it's far less likely that Manchester United will still be there with them though. I'd say most likely that next year Chelsea & Lyon replace Valencia & Man U. in Pot A (unless Valencia slips into the UEFA Cup & has a good run of course).

Author: MartinW
Date: 19-08-2006, 08:18

Let's have a look at the chances of seeding in Pot A in more detail. Here is the current standing for the last 4 seasons before the start of this year:

1.  AC Milan       105.872
2.  Barcelona       99.104
3.  Inter M         90.872
4.  Juventus        88.872
5.  Arsenal         86.132
6.  Real Madrid     84.104
7.  Liverpool       83.132
8.  Olym Lyon       77.406
9.  Valencia        76.104
10. Porto           73.440
11. Manchester U    72.132
12. Newcastle       72.132
13. Chelsea         71.132

First let's ignore Newcastle for the moment as they are in UC (although a good run to QF or SF could keep them with a very high ranking). Now let's assume that Juventus will take the 0.33 of Italy's country co-efficient which based on average of the last 4 years is likely to be around 4.468 (=13.540 x 0.33). That means Juventus will probably end the year with a co-efficient of approx 93.340.

I think we can definitely say that by the end of season AC Milan, Barca, Inter M, Arsenal, Real Madrid, Liverpool should have exceeded Juve's total (that's 6 teams so far). For the rest to overtake Juve they will need the following points Lyon 15.934+, Valencia 17.236+, Porto 19.900+, Man Utd 21.208+, Chelsea 22.208+.

Taking the average over the last two years of CL teams they will obtain the following points at each stage: R16 16.244, QF 22.377, SF 25.083, F 31.921. So to be certain of catching Juve these teams will need to reach at least the QF, but the chance for all of them to do that is unlikely. I guess Lyon, Chelsea and Man Utd are the most likely of these teams to get that far.

I think that Lyon should make the Pot A as I cannot see both Chelsea and Man Utd going more than one round further that Lyon. So the last place is between Chelsea and Man Utd. Only one point between them now so whoever goes one round further than the other will make the last Pot A position. If they both get knocked out at the same stage then it could even be a tie on co-efficients so whoever has highest EPL league placing will get in to Pot A.

My predicted seeding at end of 2006/07:
1.  AC Milan
2.  Barcelona
3.  Inter M
4.  Arsenal
5.  Real Madrid
6.  Liverpool
7.  Olym Lyon
8.  Chelsea
------------
9.  Man Utd
10. Juventus
11. Valencia
12. Porto
13. Newcastle
14. PSV

Re: Chances Tottenham seeded/CSKA Sofia unseeded
Author: panda Date: 19-08-2006, 13:58	@badgerboy, MartinW Thanx for these really good posts. OK, so for cantsmile etc the fingers crossed position for the draw for Spurs is to hope to avoid just the top seeds (so 3/4 of the possible opponents would give some cause for optimism). For Chelsea?- well if they don't make QF anyway, they will be very unhappy!

Re: Chances Tottenham seeded/CSKA Sofia unseeded
Author: Lunaris Date: 20-08-2006, 14:31	MartinW,Ricardo i think you both are underestimating valencia, they only played 4 times in the cl, but 3 times of those they were in the final (they collected 96 points,not the coefficients ones - 3 for a win, 1 for draw in those 4 seasons, that means 24 per season --> that's 8 wins per season in average) if they have a "normal" season thus, they are gonna be a force to be reckoned with

Author: Nick
Date: 23-08-2006, 07:12

After yesterday's games we know know more. After Maccabi, Salzburg and Zvezda failed to qualify for the CLGS we can now tell for sure that CSKA remains seeded in R1 and Tottenham has 90+% chances of being seeded too. In CLQR3 the only risky matches where an unseeded team with low coef can qualify seem to be Legia - Shahtar and Steaua - Standart. Dinamo, Mlada Bolesvav and Rabotnichki seem doomed with 3 goal deficits from the first games and FCK will have to win by 2 goals in Amsterdam.

Author: Maluyaca
Date: 24-08-2006, 00:16

@Nick

You overlooked our Dutch friends of Ajax who where banned to Uefa with an effect for CSKA Sofia who became unseeded by the result of Ajax.

These are the teams who are in pole position to get seeded.

CSKA Sofia * Bul 21.016
Tottenham Hotspur Eng 20.950
West Ham United Eng 20.950
Dinamo Zagreb *** Cro 20.647
Red Star Belgrade *** Srb 20.600
Hearts FC *** Sco 20.023
FC Twente Enschede @ Ned 19.640
Maccabi Haifa *** Isr 19.108
Standard Liège *** Bel 17.981
Sporting Braga Por 17.533

But I don't think that there will be a lot of surprises tomorrow. 3 a 4 maximum I think.

Author: Nick
Date: 24-08-2006, 04:07
Edited by: Nick
at: 24-08-2006, 04:13

There is always 1 bomb in CLQR3

This year it was Ajax. Congrats to our danish friends btw on FCK's win in Amsterdam. That does not matter that much on CSKA seeding. We have 7 seeded teams in QR2 which are more or less in danger to be eliminated. At least 1 of them will fail. As we know hottest candidates are Hapoel. They must perform a small miracle in Domzale in order to qualiy. Other interesting ties to watch for upsets with first leg result in brackets:

Domzale - Hapoel (2:1)
Auxerre - OFK (0:1)
Rapid - Sarajevo (0:1)
Maribor - Partizan (2:1)
Litex - Omonia (0:0)
Hajduk - CSKA (0:0)
Beitar - Dinamo (0:1)
Vaduz - Basel (0:1)
Brondby - Flora (0:0)
Wisla - Mattersburg (1:1)
Grasshoppers - Fehervar (1:1)

The bad news is actually for Tottenham and West Ham. Specifically West Ham must now hope for a miracle to become seeded.

Re: Chances Tottenham seeded/CSKA Sofia unseeded
Author: MalcolmW Date: 24-08-2006, 10:14	NO. The likeliest outcome is 5 potential seeds eliminated tonight. West Ham need any 3 to arise in order to scrape into the seeded half, so it is a lot more likely than not to work out in their favour.

Re: Chances Tottenham seeded/CSKA Sofia unseeded
Author: slanders Date: 24-08-2006, 11:23	What would happen if Tottenham were able to get in the seeded group, but West Ham couldn't? As they both have the same team ranking

Author: MalcolmW
Date: 24-08-2006, 11:43

Both have the same default English coefficient because neither has been in UEFA competitions in the last 5 seasons.
Tottenham are raked higher because of their higher league position. If West Ham had won the FA Cup, instead of being runners-up, they would have taken precedence - but they did not.
The higher ranking of Tottenham will be of no significance at all if they are 39th and 40th, or indeed if they are 41st and 42nd. But at 40th and 41st It will give Tottenham roughly twice as much chance of qualifying for the Group Stage compared to West Ham.
Of course it's possible that West Ham will qualify and Tottenham fail. It's even possible that West Ham will get an easier draw - but it's significantly less likely to happen if they are 41st on the list.
Since Newcastle are prospective first seeds, if West Ham end as 41st place one or other will be switched in the pre-draw to avoid 2 English teams in the same set of 10.

Re: Chances Tottenham seeded/CSKA Sofia unseeded
Author: slanders Date: 24-08-2006, 13:19	Thanks MalcolmW, will be interesting to see if they get seeded after tonight.

Re: Chances Tottenham seeded/CSKA Sofia unseeded
Author: Maluyaca Date: 24-08-2006, 22:58	No surprises and the seeded teams are the ones who are mentioned already on this website. The highest team to be eliminated is probably - because the match isn't finished yet - the one on position 41 (CSKA Sofia) who are trailing in the extra times.

Re: Chances Tottenham seeded/CSKA Sofia unseeded
Author: MalcolmW Date: 24-08-2006, 23:06	And the surprise was ... NO surprises - both Tottnham and West Ham will be unseeded. It will be interesting to see what level of seeded opponents they draw, and how they perform.

Re: Chances Tottenham seeded/CSKA Sofia unseeded
Author: panda Date: 25-08-2006, 11:50	@cantsmile without you Spurs will get one of the teams in the left column. Any preferences? Group 7: Seeded Unseeded Bayer 04 Leverkusen (GER) Tottenham Hotspur FC (ENG) Club Brugge KV (BEL) FC Groningen (NED) SK Slavia Praha (CZE) Skoda Xanthi FC (GRE) FK Partizan (SCG) FC Sion (SUI) FC Dinamo 1948 Bucuresti (ROU) MFK Ružomberok (SVK)

Re: Chances Tottenham seeded/CSKA Sofia unseeded
Author: shrike Date: 25-08-2006, 12:03	@panda Dinamo looks nice.

Re: Chances Tottenham seeded/CSKA Sofia unseeded
Author: Ricardo Date: 25-08-2006, 12:46	Yes, Groningen (the same group) has the same favorit I guess- very tough group. Regarding Dutch also Feyenoord and AZ have tough groups, Ajax and Heerenveen have more chances on a passable opponent(not taking Kopenhavn as an example)